中學津貼DSE考生 補習社上堂

囝囝爸

shadeslayer 發表於 13-4-18 22:59
點解亞洲國家唔學芬蘭，勞民傷財，死蠢？

xxxx

我理解一般，答非所問，語句表達不清，令你誤解，先致歉意。

勞民傷財，我是指這些瘋狂亞洲國家，要花費巨大，同等效應，而不效法芬蘭教育，實屬十分愚蠢。

eviepa

原則上，我不反對任何班級的學生去補習。畢竟不是每個學生家裡都有家長可以做顧問的。不過，我有一個強烈感覺：補習的好處被大大誇大了，補習的壞處，被低估了。

HKTHK

回復 囝囝爸 的帖子

I don't think there will be a perfect system as circumstances and expectations change and it will always be a moving target.  But I do think with 80 or 90% of students getting tutoring, it is a signal that our system is not just sick but in intensive care.  We must be able to do a better job, maybe learning from Finland, Germany, the US, or some other country, than having our children spend 80 or 90% of their time on academics to the neglect of everything else?

shadeslayer

原帖由 eviepa 於 13-04-19 發表
原則上，我不反對任何班級的學生去補習。畢竟不是每個學生家裡都有家長可以做顧問的。不過，我有一個強烈感 ...

在大多數正常情況下，我不贊成

1。過早補習，例如K3/P1起全科補
2。太多補習。例如一半的孩子自由時間用在學術上。
3。太多天王補習。例如用多過廿分一學習時間在天王式補習。

囝囝爸

回復 HKTHK 的帖子

80% 有補習，不等同花 80% 課外時間於補習。留意各國小、中學補習比率不同，南韓小學時和量算嚴重。
效法外國教育，因各條件、要求、社會情況等差異大，並不可行，但可參照。以下是你提及的國家一些教育資料：-

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Finland Fast Facts

Only 3.8% of Finland's population of 5.3 million is foreign-born, which makes for a relatively homogenous society in a small country.

Teachers in Finland are well-trained and highly respected, and recruited from the top 10% of graduates.

Because of the flexible national core curriculum that functions as a framework, Finnish teachers are able to design their own curriculum and choose their own textbooks.

Finnish schools are typically small in size, and the administrators share teaching responsibilities.

Finnish schools provide a broad array of services, including a hot meal for every student daily, health and dental care, and psychological guidance.

About 40% of students in Finnish secondary schools receive some kind of special intervention. School faculties include a "special teacher" who is assigned to identify student who need extra help and then provide it.

Upper secondary schools in Finland employ a modular structure that enables students to design their own learning programs based on their individual needs and interests.
Finland's graduation rate for upper secondary students was 93% in 2008.

On the last three Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) tests (given in 2003, 2006, and 2009), Finland has scored either first or second out of all OECD countries for all three measures: scientific literacy, math literacy, and reading literacy.

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Germany is the largest country in the European Union, with a population of eighty-two million. It is also Europe's strongest economy, and prides itself on a strong literary tradition and belief in social equality.

Much like the United States, education policy in Germany is not controlled by the central government, but by the states, where educational achievement varies.

The country was shocked when the results of the first PISA exams in 2000 were not only lower than the OECD average for reading, but revealed a higher correlation between family socio-economic status and student achievement than any other OECD country. This "PISA shock" led to national debate on how best to reform Germany's complex education system.

Germany Fast Facts

Germany has long had a three-tiered school system, where by age ten, all students are tracked into one of several secondary school options: the Gymnasium, the Realschule, or the Hauptschule. This strict method of tracking limited opportunities for student improvement and built inequity into the system.

Historically, most schools in Germany started early but excused students by lunchtime, which translated to less class time for German students when compared to other member countries of the Organisation for the Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).

Longer school days, a move toward a less segregated two-pillared system, and a push for standardized national curricula are among the various reforms adopted by the country since their initial low scores on PISA provoked change.

While many of the reforms are still in progress, in just nine years, Germany's results on the 2009 PISA tests already show improvement.

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frenchfries

芬蘭只有500萬人口，而幅員比香港大幾百倍，地大物博。如果没有這些資源，芬蘭會有這樣的經濟環境嗎?
雖然，我也非常贊成老師要有一定的質素。但是，對於整個國家來說，究竟是學生的學術成績重要，還是社會經濟重要呢？最頂尖的10%人才應該用於做老師，還是用於對國家發展有益的其他行業呢？

annie40

回復 shadeslayer 的帖子

最好的学习要靠自己摸索的, 与其花大量时间往外補習, 应该考虑用心的教孩子温习的习惯, 又或特定时间要求孩子温习,不用长时间, 但要坚持每天或每星期做一点.

HKTHK

回復 囝囝爸 的帖子

Thank you, very good info.  Can you let me know where one can find good introductions like these?  
The 80% I was referring to is the amount of time that kids spend on academics out of their total "usable" time.  Quick back-of-the-envelope as follows:

24 hours in a day - 10 hours for sleep - 1.5 hours for meals and shower [sleep, meals and shower are not optional!]
= 12.5 hours of "usable" time

Out of these 12.5 of usable hours, let's assume 8.5 hours of formal schooling+commute, 2 hours of homework+tutorial+commute.  10.5 hrs/12.5 hrs = 84%!

Which leaves 2 hrs of real free time for reading, sports, extra-curricular activities, "hea", .... or otherwise known as having a life!  

akys

其實香港的環境很難學其他國家。從90年代開始，香港已經不是一個適合創業的地方，所有的盈利都跑到地產商或投資者那裡。而做銀行，政府，醫生或其他師等高收入的都要看學歷。香港的中產父母眼光銳利，要下一代繼續做中產，就必須努力讀書。

美國的創投成熟，大量有錢人會用回饋方式支持年輕人創業，所以有大量讀書不成的能賺第一桶金。而且工種比較多，讀書不成亦可以安穩生活。

歐洲的福利能保障市民生活所需，就算做清潔工亦不會像香港那樣被受壓逼。在香港，中國做窮人是很可憐的。

現時香港大概有十幾%的學生能進大學，TOP3 維持幾個%，如果現時孩子成績在中游部分，有什麼辦法？補習吧！

akys

好多人罵歐洲福利主義養懶人，但利用抽稅方法將收入水平拉近， 不會像霍生年薪幾億，工人受苦的情況出現。這樣的環境下，學歷不是唯一，可以放鬆一點，從學習興趣，啟發潛能方面著墨。香港點跟呀！

shadeslayer

HKTHK

With 80%+ people taking tuitions and seeing some of the HK parents busy schedule of tuition for their children, I agree the HK education "ecosystem" is not right. Or at least worth investigating.

My definition of ecosystem is the school + parents/students, ie curriculum, teachers, teachers training, admission and once allocation system, school hardware, development, "parents and students".  

I can think of two scenarios:

1.  The school factor. The school curriculum and teachers etc are not producing young people with the right skills for university admission and the society.  The parent realize this and therefore invest in a large amount of time and money on additional tuition after school to bridge the gap. But how do 80% parents measure the gap and know how big the gap, then to supplement kids with the right tuition?  I believe this is minor factor. The bigger reason is the following.

2.  The parent factor. The school curriculum, teachers etc are actually adequate, producing good people for the society and university admission. However, parents want their children to get ahead of the rest, standing out from everyone else. They resort to large amount of tuition.

HKTHK

回復 shadeslayer 的帖子

I would add factor number 3: society.
3. Society:  as a society, children are being judged by the school they go to and their academic performance.  Everyone live and die by a single benchmark and it is the number of points on their report card.  Strangely, parents also seem to believe that the only path to glory, success and a big pot of gold is if one can get good grades.  Sadly, this has been the case since when I was a student and it doesn't appear much has changed in this department.  Unless children are being judged by other benchmarks, it is difficult to convince parents and children that their maniacal focus on academics is narrow-minded.  Afterall, the people who are successful are not the smartest ones or the ones with best grades.

On 1, I would also blame the universities on their admission policies which is almost purely based on academics.

shadeslayer

原帖由 akys 於 13-04-19 發表
其實香港的環境很難學其他國家。從90年代開始，香港已經不是一個適合創業的地方，所有的盈利都跑到地產商或 ...

現時香港大概有十幾%的學生能進大學，TOP3 維持幾個%，如果現時孩子成績在中游部分，有什麼辦法？補習吧！

Cxxxx

就算香港學生用100% 時間在學術，補習勁到個個 p6 懂微積分也好，也只有十八巴先的學生可入大學。爭入大學變成鬥多補習，鬥去得盡，這是一個甚麼的教育生態？

shadeslayer

原帖由 HKTHK 於 13-04-19 發表
本帖最後由 HKTHK 於 13-4-19 23:01 編輯

回復 shadeslayer 的帖子

I would say the society factor is really the parent factor. The society's view matters very little.  Parents act in the best interest of the kids, not to satisfy someone else expectations.  If the parents care too much how others view their kids, then it is also the parents problem, hence the parent factor.

Whatever the categorization may be, I suspect the parent factor is the dominant reason for extensive tuition in HK.

shadeslayer

Afterall, the people who are successful are not the smartest ones or the ones with best grades.

Xxxx

對，有所謂第十名效應。

akys

"Tuition doesn't help those average kids, at least it won't get them into Uni. It just makes them feel better"

這類小朋友真可憐！日日補習到頭來一場空。不過這類孩子的家長會要求孩子重讀或修讀毅進。

囝囝爸

HKTHK 發表於 13-4-19 16:13
回復 囝囝爸 的帖子

Thank you, very good info.  Can you let me know where one can find good introduc ...

資料用相關 keyword google 一下就可找到。

每個學生的課外學習大不同，你的計算太公式化，或用週遭現實不同的個䅁參照一下。

annie40

回復 shadeslayer 的帖子

就算香港學生用100% 時間在學術，補習勁到個個 p6 懂微積分也好，也只有十八巴先的學生可入大學。爭入大學變成鬥多補習，鬥去得盡，這是一個甚麼的教育生態？
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shadeslayer,

这个周末收到好消息, 小女的儿时玩伴, 两位是LS 学生, 一位IS 学生, 他们互不认识, 刚好两位被Berkley 收录, 另一会往LPCUW, 妈妈很开心, 竟然第一个通知我, 是与有荣焉. 看着孩子长大, 分享酸甜苦辣, 倒有点份儿啊!

他们小学是中游, 初中是中游, 没认真补习,得闲到每天到公园玩, 跟小女'hea', 书是认真读, 玩是认真玩, 总之有分数, 父母亦接受成绩OK + 态度正确, 已是很不错, 其他是尽量不管. 孩子的申请书也由孩子包办, 结果是出奇的理想.

如果要鬥,请引领孩子自己摸索, 提供资料, 鬥或不鬥是他们的選择,如何鬥, 不一定要多補習, 他们有脑袋, 一定可以找出门路, 一般父母只是二流学生, 盲目教出的多是三流学生, 那不如多花光阴在生活态度和品格培养. 其他随缘.

ANChan59

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On top of value system and discipline, exposure and inspiration are also critical in parenting.