local school should adopt putonghua as teaching medium

wicked

1. cantonese is one of the least evolved dialects of the chinese language. less evolved means less aesthetically appreciated, which is why many mandarin speakers resent the cantonese background accent. cantonese actually sounds closer to vietnamese and thai than mandarin in terms of pronouciation. the same is the cantonese ppl's physical features which tend to be of a bigger jaw, darker skin tone and a stout physique.  cantonese ppl's mental ability is also near the low end of the spectrum across china despite the cantonese area claims to be the 2nd most educated after the changjiang delta area(near shanghai), the IQ score of which ranks top, meaning even education cannot help if the gene pool quality lags too far behind. the slow evolution of cantonese is due to the warm weather and mild seasonal changes. this is also why most of the poor countries are near the equator whereas the most affluent are more on the north(in the scope of northern hemisphere).
2.there is a gap between written form of chinese and the spoken cantonese, rendering the learning process of the language less efficient if the teaching medium is in cantonese while the text books are in formal chinese.

in the coarse of evolution, the less efficient will be replaced by the more efficient; the less aesthetically appreciated will be assimilated and replaced by the more appreciated.

edea

因為有人不滿而舉報, 版主可以做的是終止這個討論, 大家再討論別的題材吧.

尊重, 嘲諷, 前者讓人舒服, 後者讓人不安.

希望大家多想一想.

edea

wicked

我无意浪费精力在没意义的争论上，特别是那种不自量力的故意挑衅。

我提议普通话取替广东话并不是基于分化的动机，正相反，是希望通过语言的统一增进融合，并减少资源浪费，属正能量投放。两千年前秦始皇统一书写文字，从维系国家以后的统一，减少冲突和维护文化的传承和互融的角度看，是一大功劳。同期的罗马帝国覆盖地中海欧洲，面积比中国更大，但这两千年间分化成欧洲几十个国家，与拼音文字易变导致语言分化有很大关系。语言的最根本目的是为了沟通，语言不同就增加沟通成本，属变相浪费。圣经里不是有babel的故事吗？

我从进化的角度提出观点，是有感早前闹得沸沸腾腾的捍卫广州话运动中的一些观点的荒谬，譬如，广州话含有最多古音，更接近唐代的官话，所以更优雅；广州话不属方言，因为联合国教科文赋予广州话cantonese的国际称谓，这是其他中国方言不可相比的；广东是经济大省，比其他省份富裕，还有香港的国际地位，都证明了岭南文化的优越性，所以更应该通过发扬广州话，传播岭南文化。

一位在深圳从事人事招聘工作的面试过不少到深圳找工作的香港大学毕业生，他其中一个评价：英语不行那就算了，普通话说成那样也敢过来和大陆人争饭碗。要知道在深圳五星酒店的中层管理人员的起薪才不过3000。不知道这有几位父母知道深圳的人口在过去30年的变化，我听说在深圳的外省人比广东人要多得多，有兴趣的自己网上查一下。这是我略看过的一个链接。
http://blog.icxo.com/read.jsp?aid=55815

一个先后在复旦和加拿大UBC待过的内地人，现在中大念MBA，香港有投资银行请他，深圳也有银行请他，他选择了深圳，其中一个原因是语言，他说香港作为一个与国际最接轨的中国城市，被标签先进和愿意接受新思维，竟然选择一个口语与书面语不一致的落后方言作为官方语言，回归后依然，可见决策者之不智和缺乏远见及大局观。实话说，缺乏大局观是香港人给我的一个突出观感，这或与香港的独特历史有关。

我知道我的观点不中听，但我还是选择把话说明白：在大中华的背景下，继续选择用广东话教学有如作茧自缚，牺牲的是下一代的竞争力。its the inconvenient truth. 被当作是先撩人x or y也罢，于我无损。且看香港与深圳之间的关卡能cushion香港多久。

wicked

for the dimwitted, what ever u said is fine with me as long as that can give a lift to ur under developed body and mind. 君子有成人之美, 我非君子 but always try to be generous with charity spirit towards the disadvantaged.

wicked

hk’s success is relevant in this discussion. hk’s economic affluence in the last 50yrs might have presented a false impression that hk’s success is factored by cantonese culture and thus the continued adoption of cantonese as the teaching medium despite the obvious inefficiency(due to the inconsistancy between the spoken and written form) and the rest of the chinese communities have been teaching in mandarin for decades.

do try to extend ur sense of history by a longer timeline backward before the british intervened, despite of >2000yrs of township history, have there been much cantonese cultural legacy worth mentioning in chiense history or cultural relics worth visiting in the cantonese area?  

its against good sense and effectiveness to learn the chinese language via a backward dialect(cantonese) when a far better and easier option(mandarin) is available.

i dont know if any similar view point as mine (from the perspective of evolution in terms of efficiency and aesthetic regard) has been raised against cantonese as a teaching medium. most of the discussions in this thread are relevant to evolution, including IQ data. IQ data by country, albeit with all the controversy, is probably the only scientific info one could refer to at this point to illustrate a pattern of man’s mental evolution. mental evolution is what differentiate us the most from the other creatures.  look and intelligence are the two key elements in our consideration of finding the other half.  its logical to assume an association between the two. but since look concerns aesthetics and intelligence also involves intuition, while both aesthetics and intuition are still(if not ever) beyond science’s reach, to define the association thru science is tempting but probably will never become an easy and concrete reality like plotting one’s height against weight.

wicked

to continue my reply to friendly guy’s older post.

i was born, raised and educated in the mainland. but my birthplace has nothing to do with this argument. my opinion is not based on where i m from.

ok i didnt read into that much detail about north korea’s data as u. but why would they make such an estimation(same as south korea)? the writers probably can be considered as experts in the relevant field. could it be they also think becoz genetically north koreans are the closest to south koreans thus rendering their IQ in the similar range despite the exposure ppl have had in the two placess could differ much in the last 1/2 century?  be that the case, their view is of no big difference from mine: gene matters more than exposure in intelligence.

i cant say u r all wrong about hybrid. but pls go and get some read on hybrid vigor and reverse hybrid vigor. they are considered biological common sense. talking of defects, genetic defects are often presented thru physical defects which appear less pleasant to eyes. thats a manifestation of “look matters”.

u r right,no one really thinks about courting so calculatingly becoz love is  more of intuition at work and intuition is of a less self-aware process than reasoning. i was merely trying to rationalize why our intuition works in a way like “有錢了，娶個漂亮媳婦...改良品種乃天經地義之事” -- but if this could make u laugh to death, that says a lot about not just ur sense of judgement but also ur incapability of humour. i m the least surprised. sense of humour, a product of intelligence(innate) and exposure, is a more refined quality of personality. those who lack it either cant appreciate humour or easily make a fool out of themselves by cracking at a wrong situation.  as far as my life is concerned, i think u can save ur pity for urself.

do u really think that i genuinely dont see the flaw in “if u know what is aspirin, u must be an expert in medicine? “  it was merely my wicked allowance so as to highlight the wastefulness of over education. i couldnt believe it that u would be mentioning “ I believe in 見微知著” just after the display of incompetence in comprehending the extrapolation in the NBA player’s case. u r probably the only reader here who had watched the programme, and apparently even with a fair amount of training in science (judging by ur jargon droppings and obsession with high scientific standard). education can empower ppl but only if provided with good senses.

“Tall people are not energy efficient unless they are fat.” -- another pointless repeat. being tall is more energy efficient than short if the other body conditions remain the same (such as fat/body size ratio). pls stop insulting ur own sense of judgement again by assuming jargon dropping would add weight to ur argument. nouveau riche is usually associated with wealth but i think this term can apply for over educated nerd too.  in my opinion, those who flaunt adademic jargons or prestigious educational background are of no big difference from those who flaunt their hard cash thru LV bags and obnoxious designer logos. only ppl lack in substance would resort to vanity of such sorts.

by ur reasoning, energy efficiency is only needed in the old days. nowadays, finding food is easy so no need to be energy efficient. i cant help laughing at myself at this point. i have to despise myself to have allowed myself into this: being patronized with a lesson about “finding food is a matter of life and death”.  looking back, i was right to have taken u lightly at the first encounter.

i have less regard for aesthetic values that cant stand the test of time. thick lips are usually associated with lust, which is why sexy. i dont know if being lustful is a well-regarded trait in the direction of civilization. i actually think those who prefer a pair of thick lips must have a less evolved aesthetic sense and are more obessed with biological desire thus more animal-like. i doubt how many girls would prefer “twin sausage lips” over small cherry-like lips.

wicked

i m finally enlightened: guangdong and hainan, being a southern coastal province and an ocean island, where sea food resources are expected to contribute more to diet than inland places, could actually suffer more from iodine deficiency than inland places, despite sea food is well known as a major source of iodine.   and such iodine deficiency accounts for the lower IQ scores in guangdong and hainan than inland places like  山西,安徽, 河南, 内蒙, 甘肃,宁夏,陕北, 新疆,青海. but how could ppl in these inland places get more share of iodine if even coastal places cant get enough?

iodine deficiency could also well be the main culprit for the low IQ in tropical coastal regions like 东南亚（87）；太平洋岛（85）；加勒比地区（70), despite its well known that ppl in these places depend on the oceans for food. how to increase their intake of iodine if sea food still cant do the trick? -- a big challenge for scientists.

low IQ scores have nothing to do with genetic disadvantage. to associate intelligence with genetic make-up is simply too racist and too wicked.

wicked

先说点题外话. 网上行文其实is very telling about ones’ ego.  i m tempted to profile an interesting attention seeker who is pathetically神经质，文笔夸张做作，不放弃任何表现涵养背景机会，大有满腔情怀要向空气倾诉之态，不知是否因此导致脑子里充斥太多空气，线路不畅，以致前言不对后语或言行相距千里：不时感慨卑微出身，往来却仿如名门大家; 才忙不迭地自谦很懒无知愚钝，下文即有慷慨的指点批示接踵而来，论坛举目可见其大名.

这本是可怜之人，现实生活中可能少有知心说话的朋友，才会出此病态而不自知，本该包容，但见其老是讨嫌，给其下下面子没准算个提点，以后或会少点丢份出格的行当.

cow

原帖由 annie40 於 11-2-18 17:23 發表
我家已改吃天然海盐,天然蔗糖佷久矣.  因为现在一般的盐和糖是纯chemical 产物, 无碘无营养无 mineral ,
有些盐写上有碘,是人做添加碘, 人体难以吸取.   大家或可作一点小改变.

大部份海鹽都冇碘, 食物安全中心聯同食物環境衞生署合作測試市面上預先包裝和散裝食鹽, 是次測試所選取 的59個預先包裝食鹽樣本中，只有3個產品標明為碘化食鹽；至於其他未有標明為碘化食鹽的產品中，只有1個含少量碘質，含量為每千克鹽1.7 毫克，相信並非製造商額外添加，可能是天然存在於食鹽中。至於15個散裝食鹽樣本，全部均沒有發現含碘質。

人類主要從飲食中吸收身體所需的碘質，亦可透過進食添加了碘質的食鹽來攝取 。海魚、海藻及其他海產可提供豐富的碘質，食用動物衍生而來的食品如奶、蛋、肉類等亦可是碘質的來源。此外，在碘質含量豐富的土壤上種植的蔬菜，亦是碘質的膳食來源。
http://www.cfs.gov.hk/tc_chi/programme/programme_rafs/programme_rafs_fci_0101.html

annie40

碘鹽丰富的食物包括纯海盐, 海藻, 海带等....

这里带出一个奇怪情况, 广东省不算贫瘠, 何以会出现碘鹽覆蓋率大幅落后于北京、上海和浙江地区, 是广东省食品, 生活习惯, 煮食方法 存在严重问题吗?

我家已改吃天然海盐,天然蔗糖佷久矣.  因为现在一般的盐和糖是纯chemical 产物, 无碘无营养无 mineral ,
有些盐写上有碘,是人做添加碘, 人体难以吸取.   大家或可作一点小改变.


广东从2004年开始出现大幅反弹，非碘盐率远超过10%，重新沦为不达标地区。監測結果顯示，廣東8-10歲兒童智商是101. 1
北京、上海和浙江等省的平均智商在110以上，而且高智商所佔比例明顯增加，與此同時，這些地區的平均碘鹽覆蓋率在94%以上

原帖由 friendlyguy 於 11-2-16 18:18 發表
唉！本來唔想覆，因為睇唔到IQ同teaching medium 有何關係，但，你又睇D唔睇D。



廣東省兒童智商低於全國平均值

为什么广东8—10岁儿童智商会低于全国平均智商？為什麼廣東8—10歲兒童智商會低於全國平均智商？ 昨天（14日），中国 ...

friendlyguy

If you want to discuss the reason for Hong Kong's success, please open another thread!

原帖由 wicked 於 11-2-16 15:46 發表
i maintain my opinion that hk’s success has more to do with good luck, head start and british influence than the trained up high IQ score bcoz of increased exposure.

pls dont put words into my mout ...

friendlyguy

唉！本來唔想覆，因為睇唔到IQ同teaching medium 有何關係，但，你又睇D唔睇D。



廣東省兒童智商低於全國平均值

为什么广东8—10岁儿童智商会低于全国平均智商？為什麼廣東8—10歲兒童智商會低於全國平均智商？ 昨天（14日），中国地方病协会常务副会长陈吉祥在接受记者采访时提到，碘缺乏会对智力造成影响。昨天（14日），中國地方病協會常務副會長陳吉祥在接受記者採訪時提到，碘缺乏會對智力造成影響。 今天是全国第十三届“防治碘缺乏病日”宣传日，这次的活动主题是：“普及碘食盐十年，人口素质提高”。今天是全國第十三屆“防治碘缺乏病日”宣傳日，這次的活動主題是：“普及碘食鹽十年，人口素質提高”。

专家指出，影响智力的因素很多，碘缺乏引起的碘缺乏病是其中之一。專家指出，影響智力的因素很多，碘缺乏引起的碘缺乏病是其中之一。

世界卫生组织估计，缺碘所造成儿童智力损失5-20个智商，国内估计儿童损失10-15个百分点。世界衛生組織估計，缺碘所造成兒童智力損失5-20個智商，國內估計兒童損失10-15個百分點。

据了解，去年卫生部首次将智商纳入消除碘缺乏病监测的必测指标，对31个省份的37288例8-10岁儿童进行了智力测查，全国平均智商为103.5，处于正常水平。據了解，去年衛生部首次將智商納入消除碘缺乏病監測的必測指標，對31個省份的37288例8-10歲兒童進行了智力測查，全國平均智商為103.5，處於正常水平。 北京、上海和浙江等省的平均智商在110以上，而且高智商所占比例明显增加，与此同时，这些地区的平均碘盐覆盖率在94%以上。北京、上海和浙江等省的平均智商在110以上，而且高智商所佔比例明顯增加，與此同時，這些地區的平均碘鹽覆蓋率在94%以上。 海南、贵州、青海和宁夏4个省份的平均智商在95以下，而这些地区除碘缺乏病病情较严重外，非碘盐率也较高。海南、貴州、青海和寧夏4個省份的平均智商在95以下，而這些地區除碘缺乏病病情較嚴重外，非碘鹽率也較高。 监测结果显示，广东8-10岁儿童智商是101. 1.据介绍，广东早在2000年就已经实现消除碘缺乏病的阶段性目标，但据卫生部组织的全国消除碘缺乏病检测结果显示，广东从2004年开始出现大幅反弹，非碘盐率远超过10%，重新沦为不达标地区。監測結果顯示，廣東8-10歲兒童智商是101. 1.據介紹，廣東早在2000年就已經實現消除碘缺乏病的階段性目標，但據衛生部組織的全國消除碘缺乏病檢測結果顯示，廣東從2004年開始出現大幅反彈，非碘鹽率遠超過10%，重新淪為不達標地區。 特别是2005年，广东合格碘盐食用率跌至75.1%，重新沦为不达标地区，碘盐覆盖率跌至79.9%，为全国倒数第四，双双低于90%的国家标准，而8—10岁儿童的尿碘中位数低于50μɡ/L的比率也由2002年的5.9%下滑到了2005年的 12.5%.陈吉祥表示，目前广东没有一个地方不缺碘，只是缺碘的程度不同，粤西、粤北山区属于重度缺碘，沿海和珠三角部分地区属于轻度缺碘，其他地方则属于中度缺碘。特別是2005年，廣東合格碘鹽食用率跌至75.1%，重新淪為不達標地區，碘鹽覆蓋率跌至79.9%，為全國倒數第四，雙雙低於90%的國家標準，而8— 10歲兒童的尿碘中位數低於50μɡ/L的比率也由2002年的5.9%下滑到了2005年的12.5%.陳吉祥表示，目前廣東沒有一個地方不缺碘，只是缺碘的程度不同，粵西、粵北山區屬於重度缺碘，沿海和珠三角部分地區屬於輕度缺碘，其他地方則屬於中度缺碘。

据悉，最近几年，世界卫生组织和医学专家研究发现，碘元素是智力元素，碘缺乏最为严重的危害就是造成胚胎、婴幼儿、儿童的脑发育不良，造成不同程度的智力损害，而且这种损害是无法弥补的。據悉，最近幾年，世界衛生組織和醫學專家研究發現，碘元素是智力元素，碘缺乏最為嚴重的危害就是造成胚胎、嬰幼兒、兒童的腦發育不良，造成不同程度的智力損害，而且這種損害是無法彌補的。

编辑：吕剑編輯：呂劍
http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=124778185

I can only say that it is totally unnecessary and waste of time if we base on this to discuss the teaching medium of Hong Kong.



2006-8-18 16:59 2006-8-18 16:59 回复 回复  
88.72.236.* 88.72.236.*  7楼 7樓

wicked

i maintain my opinion that hk’s success has more to do with good luck, head start and british influence than the trained up high IQ score bcoz of increased exposure.

pls dont put words into my mouth.  by saying that i admitted my opinions are mainly based on intuition is a blatant false accusation and an insult to other readers’ intelligence, esp those who have tried to engage in a meaningful conversation here. my opinons are guided by intuition and i have tried to honour them with reasons based on facts from history and scientific exposure, even though i cant say they are all concrete without controversy. yes my intuition plays a big part but didnt i say it clearly that i value both intuition and reasoning hand in hand?

you dont have to dignify my ability by praying to God. God doesnt need to be told how to make his decision.

as to who is the one flogging the dead horse, i will leave that to others common sense of judgement.

i will come back to ur other points when time allows.

wicked

some provincial IQ data for reference.

this is the set of data close to the one i came across. i recalled it wrong that guangdong is below 100 but i wasnt wrong to say that guangdong is on the low end of the spectrum.  since its a measurement on kids, the factor of education may be less and the score more indicative of genetic attribute.

2005年全国卫生部碘缺乏调查获得的各地儿童平均智商数据 　　 　　

搜索引擎: google学术搜索
采用智商测验标准: 瑞文第2修改版
测试时间: 2005年上半年


浙江农村男童 116.23
浙江平均男童 115.82
浙江男女平均 115.05
北京农村 114.9
杭州城区 114.7
浙江农村女童 114.41
浙江女童平均 114.32
温州5县市平均 114.195
北京平均 114.07
浙江城市女童 113.73
浙江城市男童 113.46
北京城市平均 112.6
全国平均 103.5 

湖北城市儿童 111 (地级市以及省城)
吉林平均 107.04
江苏平均 109
湖北县级市以及县城 106.4
湖北平均男童 105.44
湖北平均 105.3
四川 105.3
湖北女童 105.1
广东 103.4 或 101.1
河北城镇 98.04 2004年
全国 2002 年 瑞文标准测试 97.5
河南 95.51
海南 92.6
福建 102.4 2004年调查
湖北农村 98.8


this is another set often quoted on chinese forum. quite a lot of inconsistency with the above set of data but again, guangdong is still on the low end.

世界各地华人的智商分数 ——英国曼萨协会05年公布

一、大陆各地人的智商分数

1.上海109
2.山东,江苏107
3.河北,北京,天津106
4.东北106
5.山西,安徽105
6.关中105
7.河南105
8.内蒙104
9.甘肃,宁夏,陕北103
10.浙江,新疆,青海103
11.福建103
12.湖南103
13.江西,重庆101
14.云,贵,川,陕南100
15.湖北100
16.广东100
17.广西,海南95
18.西藏85

二、其他地区华人的智商分数

香港107
新加坡105
台湾105
澳门104

中国的平均智商在105.与日本韩国类似.

三、其他国家国民智商

犹太人（110）、德国（107）、荷兰（107）、波兰（106）、瑞典（104）、意大利（102）、奥地利（101）、瑞士（101）、英国（100）、挪威（100）、比利时（99）、丹麦（99）、芬兰（99）、捷克（98）、匈牙利（98）、西班牙（98）、爱尔兰（97）、俄罗斯（96）、希腊（95）、法国（94）、保加利亚（94）、罗马尼亚（94）、土耳其（90）、塞尔维亚（89）。

日本、韩国（106）；美国、加拿大、澳大利亚和新西兰（100）；爱斯基摩人（91）；东南亚人（87）；美洲本土印地安人（87）；太平洋岛民（85）；拉美国家（85）；南亚、西亚、北非（84）；加勒比地区（70）；非洲撒哈拉沙漠以南地区（67）；澳洲原住民（62）；非洲西南部的喀拉哈里沙漠布希曼人（Bushmen）以及刚果雨林地区的匹格米人（Pygmies）54分。

wicked

friendly guy

good to see u take on my high regard for intuition.  

repeat:i welcome different opinions. but i m really not keen on repeating simply becoz of the incompetence of a couple petty and narrow mindsets. given the choice, i much prefer someone like Uncleedward. at the very least, his opinions offer a different perspective and shed new light into the conversation, and i improve from the experience; whereas with ppl like u, who seems to arm with a heavy load of hard facts and jargons, yet i find myself often either repeating myself relentlessly or bickering on trivial non-sense or pointing out obvious mistakes to the point of belittling u. to belittle a stranger is pointless and does myself more damage than favour.

but one thing i should thank u though is that u have more than once unwittingly provided evidence for my argument. and i do appreciate ur effort in engaging in the conversation.

did u actually read dr kanazawa’s link? taking words out of context to back up an argument could more often do the opposite.  question: has man’s evolution stopped? dr kanazawa’s answer: It depends on how you define evolution. If you define evolution as frequency of genes then no, the gene frequencies tend to change over time all the time, but if you’re talking about IMPORTANT PSYCHOLOGICAL TRAITS then yes, probably the human evolution, directional human evolution towards certain psychological mechanisms probably stopped about 10,000 years ago”. 10,000 years of no change  in major psychological traits is hardly surprising if to consider the time line of mans evolution history(>200,000yrs ago from ancient modern man as by uncle’s previous quote?) but thats not the point. what has been my focus thru out this discussion? gene or major psychological traits? man never stops evolving as long as our enviroment is changing.  as one taoism saying goes: the only thing thats constant about the universe is changing itself.
  
of course i would prefer data in favour of my opinions. shouldnt that of basic logic?  i was in favour of the map becoz my point was to highlight the global patter not the exact figure of each country and the presentation in the form of a map is far more straightforward and indicative of such a pattern. if u google IQ by country, ur link comes up in the top. however skillful i m, i cant cover that up can i? how did i manipulate the data? hk as a city but being compared as a nation is an obvious flaw but u didnt point it out, i assume its not bcoz u prefer data in favour of ur opinion but merely bcoz u failed to notice it despite all that much obsession with statistical details and high scientific standard. am i right again, u always miss the important point.

i have been clear enough about gene and exposure: gene matters more than exposure in ones achievement. IQ test is mainly based on logic and reasoning(correct me if i m wrong since i m no expert), which can be  trained up by education and drills.  its said that IQ score can be trained up to 30 points by exposure. my question is if “such trained up IQ” would factor as much in ones achievement as the more innate IQ as attributed by gene.  i will try to simplify my point using a simplified case: if both a city person and a peasant score 100 in IQ test, assuming the city person’s genetic share of the score is 90 and exposure attributes 10, whereas the peasant’s split is 95 genetic and 5 exposure. if both are then put thru the same exposure for achievememt, i would expect the peasant more likely to learn better and outdo the city person.

once access to internet becomes a basic human right as clean water, the survival game will favour genetic advantage even more than exposure becoz those with genetic advantage(eg allowing a better sense of intuition) will be able to make more efficient use of the internet tool.

wicked

there might be readers questioning why the fuss here about intuition vs reasoning. my regard for intuition seems to have become a key target for bombardment by those who disagree with my opinions. however, i m delighted with the help(albeit unwittingly) from the respondents here which has allowed me the oppotunity to make a case to illustrate how my regard for intuition comes about.

intuition is ambiguous by nature which is why one thinks i dont welcome different opinions here while the other thinks the opposite. its also becoz of such ambiguity intuition is considered difficult to be reasoned. intuition influences our sense of direction in decision making. those blessed with good intuition will be more likely to embark on the right track than those with lousy intuition who often either get trapped in pointless details or head into the wrong direction and thus rendering an utter waste of energy or even invite humiliation.   

i think intelligence is also ambigous given its multi-dimensional nature. the current IQ measurement is mainly based on linear logic and reasoning, which maybe why the controversy over its representation as intelligence. also becoz of IQ test, intelligence is probably even being equated with logic and reasoning in some context. sense of honour concerns a higher level of intelligence or wisdom which can help carry us a long way yet its hardly within the scope of logic and reasoning. an under developed sense of honour could easily lead one to a lower moral ground regardless of one's reasoning power.

wicked

for an unbelievable discussion, i would hardly spare any attention nor make a comment about the quality of the argument, let alone to insult others intelligence as if they needed my guidance on the worth of their attention or their sense of judgement.

i care the least if u have read thru this thread but if u hadnt, how would u have arrived to the opinion of “giving weak and inconsistent arguments. When confronted with fact and science, he resorted to instincts or intuition.” and that my argument is based on instinct?  by taking words out of context or by ur gut feeling? i bet u must have a lot.

by ur words: how to expect a meaningful discussion based on an argument from ur gut? shall i use that to discredit ur opinion as a demonstration of my reasoning not gut feeling?

i think i have a good enough understanding of intuition vs instinct to appreciate the need for a lecture on gut feeling under the understanding that such a lengthy lecture has nothing to do with any convoluted intention. but as a return to ur well-reasoned lecture, here is my analysis based on your highly regarded reasoning: the point of ur lecture is instinct, intuition and gut feeling are the same as far as this discussion goes, which is why they can be used interchangeably, and an argument from the gut doesnt deserve the service of the reasoning brain for a meaningful discussion. this is quite the opposite to einstein’s opinion in percieving the world. i m not interested in how u two have arrived on the opposite end of perception. before i go on, here is wiki’s quote about einstein:  beyond his exellence in science, Einstein also wrote about various philosophical and political subjects such as socialism, international relations and the existence of God. His great intelligence and originality have made the word "Einstein" synonymous with genius and he is coined as the man of the last century. might there be any possibility that u could be a super-genius or the woman of this century if ur perception surpasses his? be that the case, my honour to have been in this conversation with u. albeit that, as a respect for ur superb perception and the consideration that both our arguements are inflatedd with much gut feeling which surely doesnt deserve the service of ur superb brain, the abandonment of ur attention in the developement of this thread will be duly and understandably expected. apparently this expectation by reasoning is in line with ur gut feeling. how interesting.

as said many times, i have high respect for and good faith in my gut feeling and would always try to honour it with good reasoning. i care the least if the discussion here is unbeleivable or meaningful for ur gut feeling but i m tempted to know, would u also honour ur gut feeling as i do or would u simply admit that ur gut feeling is lousy which might explain its undeserving of respect from ur reasoning brain?

wicked

friendly guy and others

will come back to u later on. good to notice u resort to intuition so often now, yet proven wrong right away by a 3rd party. perhaps we can see it as the ambiguous nature of intuition?