ESF schools Futher $$$$

Shootastar

回復 HKTHK 的帖子

"It is meant to be discriminatory to achieve a social good.  Who cares if the applicants have good English?  You have to take into account what is the objective of the ESF schools".

I don't quite understand what you want to say. ESF teach in English is NOT teaching English. If your English is not good enough, you will not be admitted. If you check BK threads, you will see that there are a number of applicants not admitted just because their English is not up to the standard.

I do not see why the discriminatory, outdated, colonial admission policy (against those who speack Cantonese and/or know how to write Chinese characters) could do social good. It is quite obvious that my kids are discriminated although they could speak and use English as good as native English speakers. There is no social good to me (or, I venture to say, to other kids who are affected by its policy.)

FattyDaddy

Like before, I have nothing new to add, but at this stage it seems another summary of the discussion is in order:-

(1) I want my child to learn Cantonese/Chinese ...

... The child can go to local schools and enjoy heavy subsidy

(2) I don't want my child to learn Cantonese/Chinese (lets say this is a genuine wish so leave the so-called "lying" and "cheating" out of this) ...

... The child can go to ESF and still enjoy some subsidy

(3) I want my child to learn Cantonese/Chinese AND I don't want him/her to attend local school ...

... The child can go to a non-subsidized international school

(4) I want my child to learn Cantonese/Chinese AND I don't want him/her to attend local school AND I want to enjoy subsidy ...

... Sorry, no can do.

Blast !!! This is so unfair

HKTHK

回復 Shootastar 的帖子

What you need to understand is that ESF is not meant for you.  It is not meant to be a "choice" for Cantonese speaking family.  You have no "right" to be placed in that school.  Your right is to be educated in a local school and I have no idea why you feel entitled to have a place at the school just because your children meet the English standards.  The purpose of the ESF schools is to serve families who cannot fit into the local system.  If HK wants to attract expats to work and stay here, they have to provide schooling for their children.  No doubt it is a remnant of the colonial years but it has legitimate reasons to exist today.
Think of ESF schools as disabled parking spaces.  It is a parking space but it is not meant for everyone.  It serves specific purposes and despite the fact that you really want it and you might have fell yesterday and injured your leg, you are still not entitled to it.

PoohsBaby

回復 Maoku 的帖子

"The positive discrimination policy of giving priority to those cannot speak Cantonese for getting entry to local school is to protect the minority to have fair chance of receiving education that fits their language needs."

I don't agree with this comment because minorities are already catered for in other schools already.   The Govt. created the DSS Schools about 10 years ago which allows them to develop their own curriculim and most importantly, decide on the medium of instruction to use.   There are many DSS Schools using English as the medium of instruction i.e. the Po Leung Kuk schools schools,  Lam Man Chan, Tan Siu Lin, Choi Kau Yau, etc.  If you look at their annual student intake, they take in many minorities, some are even famous for taking in Southeast Asian minorities.   
So ESF can no longer use this argument when talking to the Govt. about subvention.   Some of these schools actually charge a fraction of what ESF charges.   The other point is ESF schools are actually increasing the weekly class time they teach Chinese which is pretty contradictory to the initial mission of providing education to those who cannot speak or write Chinese.
They must stop their discrimanatory policy (favoritism to those non-local kids using public funds) immediately if they want to continue getting taxpayers money.
There is no reason why we have to subsidize non-local kids education in HK with taxpayers money when a Chinese speaking Local is automatically a 'Cat 2' and will not even have a chance for an interview.

Maoku

原帖由 Shootastar 於 12-10-17 發表
本帖最後由 Shootastar 於 12-10-17 18:58 編輯

回復 Maoku 的帖子

Thanks for all your views that triggers me to think further on this issue.  I don't mean to argue with anybody here but I just wish to offer a slightly different perspective for enriching the discussion.

Let me put it this way.  In a MTR compartment full of passengers with only one priority seat available for the under-privileged, a well dressed man but with one limb only now come on board. Should we, as a normal person with full limbs, leave the seat for this man or should we take the seat just because he looks rich?


I truly think that education is a universal social goods that every people should entitle. I am not saying that I support those 雙非嬰 whose parents that I see as exploiting our legal loopholes to take advantage of the benefits that they not entitled. I mean those people who are legally authorized to live and work here, be it expatriate or other ethic minorities, which their kids are just as ours should have the equal rights to education.


The ESF and the other schools that Shootstar mentioned are meant to be protecting the minority for equal opportunity to education.  Therefore, priority no doubt should go to those who cannot speak Cantonese by ethnicity. So people who can speak Cantonese where they have adequate opportunity in mainstream school should give way to those who are in need, just as normally we offer seats to the physically impaired. We will not think why I can't have equal access to that priority seat in front of the disadvantaged.


The tricky thing is that more and more local parents are tired of the local education system that excessively emphasizes on exam results and endless homework and tutorial class, not to mention the many educational reforms in the past years. Our didactic based system has strained family relationship that makes many parents vote by their feet. Perhaps together with the decreasing number of expatriates shortly after 1997, the vacancies in most IS, including ESF, were filled up by many many local kids.  


But If we have watched recent RTHK documentary on 國際學校誰讀？http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7LRwZqmUeM&sns=em, we should know that ESF should start applying more stringent screening on admission so that kids by ethnicity not able to learn in Cantonese can have their study places.  Of course,  this would make the competition to IS education even more keen.   EDB shall, undoubtedly, be responsible for examining the whole education direction of local curriculum and reviewing the positioning of IS.


I am grateful that my kid is lucky enough to get selected in ESF PIS.  There is no Cat 1/2 priority in the admission selection. Kids compete on equal grounds on their language ability as well as their social skills.   But for ESF schools where government subsidy are involved, the principle of granting priority to the needy should prevail.  


ESF should rectify the system from being derailed from its original intention as there are many real Cat 1 kids not even granted the opportunity of interview while someone who are supposed to be Cat 2 have taken up their places which I see as unjust.


Hope my views do not offend, if yes, my apology.

Maoku

Somehow there is paragraphing problem of my last post that might hamper your reading in iPAD!  Sorry!

Maoku

回復 PoohsBaby 的帖子

Thanks for your comment.  I agree that the charges of ESF are quite high for some ethnic minorities, especially those less affluent group.  That's why these kids entered to other less expensive DSS or  schools dedicated for these minorities.  ESF may  need to increase its cost transparency to ascertain of what level of subsidy being appropriate to serve the public purpose of catering non-Chinese speaking students.

For the Chinese teaching, it's more like a demand and supply issue.  Obviously many local kids entered to ESF would create pressure for more Chinese.  However, even without this factor, Chinese is undeniably getting more important than ever to an extent that most IS cannot go without it.  So it is more a natural consequence.


But by comparing other mainstream schools, both in classroom and casual setting, the extent and depth of Chinese learning is by far minimal.  Basically, Chinese in ESF is treated as  secondary language.  Kids are streamed according to their proficiency to 3 pathways among which most kids from non-Chinese are classified to pathway 1, i.e. Chinese as a Foreign Language.  No matter which pathways, the duration of each class is only 30 minutes a day which is a lot less than the mainstream schools.  So, whether there is increase in teaching Chinese or not, sounds not quite a reason of determining whether ESF should receive government subsidy.


So back to the basic question, if ESF is meant to primarily cater for kids of English-speaking origin that cannot fit to local schools, it should adhere to the policy of giving priority to these kids in needs as far as public funds are involved.  To me, the issue is more on implementing an effective screening of kids that really deserved rather than further relaxing the policy itself for local kids, especially the places for foreign students had fallen short a lot at these days.

Shootastar

回復 HKTHK 的帖子

Ah, you miss the point.

I have no right to place my kids in ESF, yes. But my right is infringed if ESF is using the public fund to admit students with a discriminatory, outdated and colonial admission policy. In this event, my right is infringed.

HKTHK

I don't understand then.  If you are not referring to the "right" to have your children study at ESF, then what "right" are you referring to?  

Shootastar

回復 Maoku 的帖子

Your view is certainly welcome and certainly would not offend anybody because we are participants in a debate.

The more we debate, the more reasons come out.

Handicaps are misfortune and it is our civic duty and obligations to look after them. No school would teach them to compete the seats of MTR or buses because physically they could not compete with others. If we talk about education, the handicaps in Hong Kong have no special treatment. If they want to study in Us of Hong Kong, they have to take the same examination and attain a certain standard before they are admitted.

Regarding ESF, many local kids who speak Cantonese and/or know how to write Chinese are discriminated by ESF's policy. They will be admitted only if there are vacancies after all the non-Cantonese speakers are admitted.

As to ethnic minority, I, as well as most of the Hong Kong people, agree that they should have equal educational opportunity and study with government grant. There is no doubt about that. Hong Kong Government has done a lot in this regard - setting up government schools and DSS to cater their need.

No one would complain more grant to be given to ESF if it changes its discriminatory admission policy. No one would complain LPC to admit 63 foreign students each year yet its local intake is only 57. Why? It is because LPC does not receive the government fund to subsidise the foreign students. They use their charity fund to support them if financially they cannot make it. Any noise from HK parents? I am afraid there is none.

HKTHK

回復 Shootastar 的帖子

The HK Government, no different than any others, has the right to spend its revenue on furthering what it sees as an appropriate social goal, right?  So in this case, it spends money on ESF schools so that some minority and expat children will be able to receive education.  How does that infringe on other citizen's rights?

Shootastar

tcbobo

"how would you know your kids would not be admitted if you don't apply?  I put in an application for my kid even I know the chance is small"

Perhaps you would know the waiting queue for the ESF schools. You are correct, if I do not apply I do not know the result.

The problem is that my kids speak Cantonese at home and know how to write Chinese although they can speak and write English fluently. Unless I lie to ESF (which I hate to do so fearing that it would set a very bad example to the kids), the reality is that virtually the chance of being admitted is approached zero.

HKTHK

So how would you solve the following social problem.  The law of HK mandates education for all age appropriate children. Both Cantonese speaking and expat children have the right and the obligation to to to school.  Cantonese children can go to local schools and, whether they like the particular school or not, they will have a place at a school.  What about the expat children?  They can't go to local schools.  If ESF does not discriminate others and take them in, where would these children go to school?  So to balance the two interests, 1) expat children getting an education or else no schooling at all vs 2) Cantonese children wanting an international education but not getting one (and being offered education at a local school only), isn't the choice obvious?  I don't see how Chinese families' right to an "international" education should take precedence over an expat families' right to any education.

Shootastar

回復 HKTHK 的帖子

Yes, I have no right to place my kids to ESF. But you have no right. The other parents have no right as well.  One has the right to place his kid in a school unless he operates the school.

ESF operates the schools on government fund. In that case, I should have a right (equal to yours) to be fairly treated. However, ESF discriminates my right and punishes me by its discriminatory admission policy.

Shootastar

回復 HKTHK 的帖子

Dont get me wrong.

If you care to read my posts, you will find that I have no objection that the ethnic minority should receive the same grant as local kids have so long as they are HK permanent residents - no matter they study in ESF, local schools or DSS.

It is debatable whether grants should be made across the board to non- PR foreigners or expatriates.

Assuming that grants should be made across the board, why my kids are discriminated and punished by the fact that they speak Cantonese at home and know how to write Chinese?

Shootastar

回復 HKTHK 的帖子

You still miss the point.

If ESF wants to admit foreigner and expatriate in discriminating others, that is fine so long as they do not use public fund.

GSIS, HKIS, CDNIS, Japanese Internationa, French Internations, Singapore Internationals and other international schools in Hong Kong have similar policy to give priority to their own citizens. Anyone complains? No. Why? It is because they operate on their own fund.

Shootastar

回復 HKTHK 的帖子

What I advocate is the equal right. Local kids who speak Cantonese and/or know how to write Chinese characters should have equal opportunity (or "right") as far as admission to a Government funded school.

nintendo

咁，女仔唔讀得喇沙算唔算不公平？

HKTHK

回復 Shootastar 的帖子

Why should grants not be offered to non-PR foreigners or expats? They paid taxes too.  Why should their children not be entitled to education?  It is clear that all the foreign schools combined do not have sufficient spaces for expat families even with the current ESF policies.  If ESF does not offer preferences to expat families and the other international schools are full, which is the case today, what do you propose expat families do to educate their children?

You seem very focused on the myth that since you are a tax-paying citizen, you should have equal rights to all services provided by the government. This is simply not true. The government does not provide the exact same services to all its citizens or residents.  I have no idea why one would have such expectation.  The government offers a stipend for the senior citizens.  That is age discrimination since others pay taxes and are not entitled to the money.  Do you find that unfair and feel that you have equal right to the stipend as well?

HKTHK

Instead of arguing endlessly on various fronts, how about we get one question out of the way first.  For expat families who are bringing children up today and are about to enter primary 1 (similar to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7LRwZqmUeM&sns=em), what do you propose that they do?  GSIS, HKIS, French, .... are all full already or maybe their children did not qualify since they are from Ukraine (a random country with no international school affiliation).  Where are these Ukrainian kids going to get their education?