你地既寶寶係學中文定英文先?

shadeslayer

FattyDaddy  2 minutes? You must have done it often and become very good at it. What is the use of saying something new if you never want to prove your 'Chinese' in the real world?  發表於 19 分鐘前

xxxxx

I am not fast, you are slow.

Tell me how much time do you need to type "official language of Hong Kong" in google and copy-paste 4 links from the top?  Which all have a definition of Chinese covering dialects.

FattyDaddy

laorenjia 發表於 12-12-29 15:22
回復 FattyDaddy 的帖子

係呀，普通話真係好緊要。多口問句：what is your definition of "Chinese"？ ...

Chinese as a language in a practical sense means Mandarin or PuTongHua whichever way you want to call it. Rightly or wrongly, Mandarin has become "Chinese" understood by most Chinese in China and the world.

Are we talking about education here? If an impartial foreigner wants to be educated in "Chinese", Mandarin would be what he/she learns, one would expect this to be common sense.

laorenjia

FattyDaddy 發表於 12-12-29 15:47
Chinese as a language in a practical sense means Mandarin or PuTongHua whichever way you want to cal ...

原來我都蠢唔晒，估到你講嘅Chinese即係普通話。再一次講，普通話真係好緊要。但可能你旅居海外，已受污染，用字有小小唔規範。我可以好似溫總咁，用負責任嘅態度向你提出，你所說的Chinese或中文一詞，在我們偉大祖國並非規範用字。根據《中華人民共和國國家通用語言文字法》（2000年10月31日第九屆全國人民代表大會常務委員會第十八次會議通過）裏面第二條：國家通用語言文字是普通話和規範漢字。如果你下次用字準確些少就perfect喇，好辯之徒如shadeslayer就冇聲出啦。

FattyDaddy

laorenjia 發表於 12-12-29 23:27
原來我都蠢唔晒，估到你講嘅Chinese即係普通話。再一次講，普通話真係好緊要。但可能你旅居海外，已受污 ...

We should go back to how all this got started, someone mentioned the fact that an old fart like Lee Kuan Yew (who is fluent in his mother tongue Hokkien) spent years trying to improve his Mandarin, I was saying he and many Singaporeans are quite clear that "Chinese" means Mandarin and not their native tongues Hokkien and ChiuChow and Cantonese and Hakka and HaiNanese, that is why they make the extra effort, then somebody got all agitated and screamed no no no, how dare you say Cantonese is not Chinese.

用字準確些少? I was clear enough, and if my words raised somebody's (hopefully not yours) blood pressure and caused him/her to loose sleep, that is just too bad

shadeslayer

FattyDaddy 發表於 12-12-30 00:45
We should go back to how all this got started, someone mentioned the fact that an old fart like Lee Kuan Yew (who is fluent in his mother tongue Hokkien) spent years trying to improve his Mandarin, I was saying he and many Singaporeans are quite clear that "Chinese" means Mandarin and not their native tongues Hokkien and ChiuChow and Cantonese and Hakka and HaiNanese, that is why they make the extra effort, then somebody got all agitated and screamed no no no, how dare you say Cantonese is not Chinese.

Listen to what you have just said.  I did not think you have such bad memory.  Let me help you remember:

The first paragraph of your first message in this thread was:
=======
#77
The current first language of Hongkong is Cantonese, not Chinese, even the Hongkong government only claim they are promoting 母語教學 and not 中文教學. Those Hongkongers who believe they are speaking "Chinese" are purposely ignoring the fact that their mother tongue is not understood by the vast majority of Chinese, and their writings are intelligible only because they purposely don't write in their mother tongue.
======


That was how it was really started.  Look at the first sentence --- Cantonese is not Chinese.

Is there a reason for HK people to be offended, agitated, blood pressure increased by this statement?  Yes, I think there is.

FattyDaddy

shadeslayer 發表於 12-12-30 02:45
The current first language of Hongkong is Cantonese, not Chinese ...

Yep, I said that, and I went on to say Singaporeans realize that "Chinese" means Mandarin and not their native dialects, so their Chinese schools went 100% Mandarin and even an old fart like Lee Kuan Yew with one foot in the grave still makes a strenuous effort to improve his Mandarin.

Meanwhile what are Hongkongers doing? They are still fooling around with 母語教學 believing that is "Chinese teaching". The outcome is Singaporeans are not only comparatively stronger in English but in Mandarin as well, and who do you think are more competitive in the global market as far as language skills are concerned?

Do you feel offended by this? May be Hongkongers should recognize a wake up call when they see one.

ANChan59

回復 FattyDaddy 的帖子

Do you feel offended by this? May be Hongkongers should recognize a wake up call when they see one.

*********


I don't know other parents' views, I appreciate your frank remark. I got the wake up call from foreigners years back. That's why I focus on two languages and three diabetes.

shadeslayer

FattyDaddy 發表於 12-12-30 03:57
Yep, I said that, and I went on to say Singaporeans realize that "Chinese" means Mandarin and not th ...

Your question

"Do you feel offended by Singapore language skills being more competitive than HK?

has nothing to do with what we have been discussing

"Cantonese is not Chinese?"

Or at least I thought that was what we have been discussing. But that is fine, nothing wrong with changing topics.

=======

香港人要學好兩文三語是共識。沒有共識的是兩文三語中那範疇要改善。

我問你，兩文三語中有那一樣，學生學十幾年後也不見得人，別人問路會啞口無言？我認為是英文。香港英文和星有很大距離，大過香港和大陸英文水平的差距。囝囝爸卻認為香港的英文水平夠用，不影響競爭力，不用高强。他認為，如果外資找不到人材可撤走，香港不做國際城市，做內地城市也沒所謂。

普通話呢？在香港，整個教育界教育政策等等，也著重中文及普通話。九十後零零後們比上一代明顯普通話好得多。他們小學，以致幼稚園已有普通話課，全部學漢語拼音。每年有更多的小學普教中。即使他們的上一代，很多人上內地工作。幾個月下來很多香港人已能用普通話溝通。甚少聽到有人因為普通話長期不濟不能留內地發展。香港人上內地工作，內地看上香港人的，一定不是因為普通話說得好，多數因為香港人較能和國際水平接軌。香港人的普通話和星架坡的差距每天也在減少。


大家又認為香港兩文三語那方面急需改善？

囝囝爸

無意冒犯新加坡人，聽說他們中文不及馬來西亞華人。大約三年前，新加坡領導人表示，漢語普通話將成為該國的“主導”性語言。目前，他們正在積極地鼓勵本國民眾學習講一口流利的普通話。新加坡第一任總理、國務資政李光耀甚至說，兩代人之後，普通話就會成為該國的母語。

香港現普通話處處，相信不用一代時間，十年八年間香港人普通話會大有進步。新加坡要兩文「並重」，我從不擔心。

以下一篇貼文聊供欣賞 . . .

囝囝爸

新加坡．印尼．香港．中文  http://bigdogkee.blogspot.hk/2011/01/blog-post_813.html?m=1

隨著中國經濟的崛起，中文成為了世界上重要的語文，在很多地方，中文也「去妖魔化」，成為當地政府大力推廣的語文，其中包括香港人較熟悉的新加坡和印尼。

四百多萬人口的新加坡，雖然七成五左右是華人（從李光耀以來，獅城政府即有策略地，長期保持華人佔七成以上的政策），但由於當年新加坡政府對中文有很深的恐懼感，認為華校容易成為散播共產主義的場所，加上身處「馬來海洋」，極欲撇脫會讓周圍的馬來國家將之視為「另一個中國」的形象，所以處心極慮的大幅降低華文在學校的比重，乃至最終取消華校，獨尊英文。於是，怪現象來了，新加坡成為世界上罕見的，乃至可能是唯一的一個，當地最主要種族卻普遍不重視本身語文的國家。表面上，新加坡是「四語並重」（即英語、華語、馬來語、印度淡米爾語；更怪的是馬來文是國文，但全國懂的人卻寥寥無幾，學生也不是必學的，這顯然只是一種討好馬來人／馬來世界的虛招），而中文也隨處可見，但年輕一代的中文水準江河日下，是不爭的事實。
八十年代初，新加坡的中文水準仍很高，基本上與台海兩岸三地及馬來西亞華人社會無異，有興趣者可搜尋八十年代中期開始興起，受台灣民歌運動影響的「新謠」（新加坡歌謠）的作品（巫啟賢即是新謠重要代表人物之一），中文造詣之高，放在台海兩岸三地，都毫不輸蝕。但時至今日，能作出如此高水準中文歌詞的新一代新加坡華人，應該是找不到了。但那批在八十年代或之前讀華校，且中文水準相當高的新加坡人，他們的英文水準一樣也不低，毫不輸今天只懂英語的新一代新加坡人。

新加坡獨尊英文，大家可別以為英文很強，事實上也只是可作日常溝通，且許多人口音與文法也有瑕疵（著名的Singlish即一例），而且也幾乎找不到可以英文寫出重要文學與人文作品的新一代新加坡人。此外，新加坡政府八十年代推動華人講華語（即普通話）運動，對方言有諸多限制，這加速了華人傳統文化的斷層。因此，新加坡新一代華人成了失根的一群，甚為可悲。

近年隨著中國的崛起，新加坡也開始推廣中文，所以請了不少來自中國大陸、台灣，乃至馬來西亞的教師（因本土已很難找到了），我的馬來西亞朋友即是其中一人。他經常向我訴苦，新加坡學生中文水準之低，「教到吐血」，直言「沒希望」，因為那些學生的口頭禪之一即是"I hate Chinese"，根本沒心學，只不過是父母逼他們學而已。這些學生不僅有新加坡土生土長，更有些是中國新移民的下一代。他說，比起馬來西亞的華人，新加坡的中文水準低得很。所以，他奉勸那些以為新加坡是「雙語社會」而想將子女送來受教育的中國大陸父母，「不要受騙了」，乾脆去馬來西亞更理想，還是「三語」呢，即馬來語、英語、華語，華校皆必學（這是馬來西亞的驕傲）。

二零一零年初，新加坡教育部更因有家長反映小學考試的華文（母語）比重太高，「影響成績」，而有意降低華文比重，鬧得滿城風雨，最終因反彈及分歧太大而沒實施。

事實上，中文對很多新加坡華人來說相當於「外文」，而不是「母語」。根據新加坡教育部調查，華族小一學生的家庭用語為英語的比例已由一九八二年的百分之十增加到二零零九年的百分之六十。

在印尼，又是另一番景象。六十年代開始，蘇哈托因遷怒於華人，於是以「反共」為由，禁絕中文，實施排華政策，一實施就是三十年，直到他在一九九八年倒台，印尼開放改革後，才取消歧視華人的措施，華文也得以重見天日，而且一些地方政府甚至規定華文是必修課（不僅華人，包括印尼人），印尼政府投資招商部門的網站，更有中文版（也有日文版），這是連新加坡都做不到的。廣州亞運會中，以海軍陸戰隊員為主力的龍舟隊，更是橫掃全部三面男子龍舟金牌，使之成為印尼隊的最大金牌來源（傳統強項羽毛球只獲一面金牌），連「中華味」如此重的項目，印尼都已毫無忌諱，可見其思想開放之全面與成功。

說實在的，在全球華人社會中，真的普遍民眾都能有中英雙語能力的，只有香港而已。或許香港人的中文程度及英文程度可能都不是最好，都有瑕疵，但一個社會中有高中學歷者普遍能夠用這兩種語文溝通的，全球華人社會中只有香港（大馬華人除非是讀華文中學，否則中文程度也有限）。以前或者人們還可挑剔香港人普通話不行，但回歸後已改善許多。

香港是很特殊的，它是一個九成人口是華人（嚴格講是粵語人）的社會，但人們至今普遍還是視英語教育為高人一等，所以都想把孩子送往英校（尤以中學為甚），但在學校以外又九成以上時間是用中文的，基本上是廣東話及中文世界。但英文在香港很多方面又是很重要的，比中文重要，例如在商業上、法律上，乃至政府文件都是中英雙語並重。這種乍看似「人格分裂」的情況，其實造就了香港人普遍能應用雙語的結果，很奇妙也很特殊。

寫於2010年12月

laorenjia

FattyDaddy 發表於 12-12-30 00:45
用字準確些少? I was clear enough, and if my words raised somebody's (hopefully not yours) blood pressure and caused him/her to loose sleep, that is just too bad

Sorry.肥爸爸，係我一時錯口，唔係你唔準確。但你都要就吓我呢啲水準唔高嘅讀者（shadeslayer條友仔都唔慌會高我好多)，若你一早就講「廣東語唔係普通話」，「廣東話唔係規範漢語」，你話佢重點抝？佢重抝，就等我通知我嗰邊嘅兄弟，等佢過羅湖橋就依法處理(唔依法都唔係話唔得。嗱，shdeslayer,中文去到triple negative都重得)，教訓吓呢個「以為自己(好)有正義感」嘅友仔。

FattyDaddy

shadeslayer 發表於 12-12-30 10:33
has nothing to do with what we have been discussing
"Cantonese is not Chinese?"

Why dwell on that sentence? I already clarified long ago that Cantonese is a "Chinese language" but not "Chinese". If a foreigner wants to learn "Chinese" he should learn Mandarin and not Cantonese, just like if you want to learn "Italian" you should learn Northern Italian and not Neapolitan.

Regarding 問路, my personal experience is this, when I first visited Singapore 20 years ago, I did occasionally face the situation of some stranger asking me the way, the default language they used was English back then, nowadays that has changed to Chinese (Mandarin). Of course if they see an Indian or Malay or white stranger they would still use English, but if they see an oriental face then Mandarin is the default. This goes to show that the status of Mandarin had indeed been elevated over the years.

In Singapore, English schools are 100% English and Chinese schools are 100% Mandarin, it is 兩文兩語 and dialects have no place. Singaporean's English has always been strong and their Mandarin has gone from acceptable to strong. Now lets look at Hongkong's 兩文三語, English schools are not 100% English (with standards lowering too) and Chinese schools are still mostly Cantonese, the result is Hongkongers English has degraded from acceptable to weak while Mandarin has only improved from non-existent to weak.

FattyDaddy

囝囝爸 發表於 12-12-30 11:14
說實在的，在全球華人社會中，真的普遍民眾都能有中英雙語能力的，只有香港而已。...

Obviously the author of this article is another who thinks 粵語能力 is 中語能力

shadeslayer

FattyDaddy 發表於 12-12-30 15:57
Why dwell on that sentence? I already clarified long ago that Cantonese is a "Chinese language" but  ...

As for mandarin in HK, I am much more optimistic than you. I would not call it weak. I would even call it adequate. Just go to any of the countless retail stores in HK and listen to how much Mandarin you hear. Most of the sales people in these shops are HK locals. If HK people can be successful sales people, I guess you cannot call their Mandarin weak.

FattyDaddy

shadeslayer 發表於 12-12-30 16:53
Just go to any of the countless retail stores in HK and listen to how much Mandarin you hear. Most of the sales people in these shops are HK locals. ...

That is hardly an accurate assessment because those shop assistants are trained and/or selected, the 問路 test which you suggested for assessing English would be more accurate. Try it, find a stranger on the streets in WanChai who looks like a local native and ask for the way to "Rui An Zhong Xin" and see how many can give you a satisfactory reply in Mandarin, I bet many won't even realize the place you want to go to is 瑞安中心.

囝囝爸

FattyDaddy 發表於 12-12-30 16:12
Obviously the author of this article is another who thinks 粵語能力 is 中語能力

作者想法和我一樣。

中國自古以來，是方言多的國家之一，未有統一語言之前，中國人都沒有中語能力？

象形文字、方言也是中文一種。源遠長流，現世界用粵語的人過億，相對用英語國的幾億人數，我引以為傲。

語文是包括聽寫講讀，文盲只能聽講，你只可稱大部分香港人為標準漢語語盲，說成冇中語能力，有待你更多引證。

被稱冇中語能力，我是其一，也從不介意，中台遊時也沒造成大障礙。有共同文字基礎，語境處處，傳媒影視萬千，普通話也不難學好。

samuel89

shadeslayer 發表於 12-12-28 19:44
大陸學生，以前中學才學英文，現在小三已學，過多幾年，小一學，香港優勢愈來愈小。如果香港還不思進取，抱殘守缺，信甚麼真言英文要靠背，默書要 IPA，游泳不出汗，香港平均英文仲好勁等，下場係好快死得。

大陸學生"追"上來呢點我一d都唔驚.......大陸同胞"追"上來系必然既, 呢點唔止唔系咪大問題, 甚至可以講系推動力, 我最驚系港人連已經擁有既"優勢"都冇埋, 甘就真系好快死得。......

shadeslayer

原帖由 samuel89 於 12-12-31 發表
大陸學生"追"上來呢點我一d都唔驚.......大陸同胞"追"上來系必然既, 呢點唔止唔系咪大問題, 甚至可以講系推 ...

Steve Jobs 發明 iPod，大賣，引來一窩蜂來到音樂播放器市場，這是必然的，Apple 繼續改進iPod, 但最後 Steve 要再發明 iPhone.

內地英語改善是必然的，香港要繼續改善自己英語，不要自滿，同時發展其他優勢。

食老本不可以太耐呢？

ANChan59

回復 samuel89 的帖子

我最驚系港人連已經擁有既"優勢"都冇埋, 甘就真系好快死得。

*************


不用擔心，過往15年本港政府在各層面已經全面做緊！the city is dying......

FattyDaddy

囝囝爸 發表於 12-12-31 11:17
中國自古以來，是方言多的國家之一，未有統一語言之前，中國人都沒有中語能力？

History is history, now is now, many a prosperous society had diminished and even disappeared because they couldn't adapt to changing times and circumstances.