RC parents and CWB Parents please verify

Pianokc

After a series of heated discussion about ESF recently, and esp RC....I am going to be VERY careful with my choice of words here, but why I risk being "fired" and "attacked" by posting here is because I am really curious, and appalled at the same time, why such standards are acceptable to so many parents.

I met up with 3 students today.
2 are from RC, and 1 from CWB.

Kid no. 1 - while waiting for lesson, she's doing her chinese homework from RC. Primary 4. A workbook, with doodling all over the cover, and in the FIRST page, was today's homework.

There was a title, and for someone like me, grew up overseas, with little chinese writing education, yet I can read still quite a bit since moving to HK, improved alot.... even I, can see how many mistakes there were in the paragraph.

So I asked her, why is this paragraph with so many mistakes? (A little background about this girl.... she's exceptionally advanced for her chinese writing and reading because she recently immigrated from Taiwan, if not very advanced, it is at least up to the expected standards of her age)....
she said, "Yes, I asked the teacher the same thing. The teacher said, it's right."

We are looking at missing strokes, missing parts to some basic chinese characters, and in each sentence, she left boxes blank. I asked her why is it blank, she said, because I don't know how to write it. I said, I thought you copied it from the board, she said, yes, but I don't know how to write the words she is writing, and it's time to go.
So I said, what are you doing with this homework, she said, I have to read it.

I asked her whether she let her mom see this, she said, yes, mommy also asked why the words are all wrong. What we figured out finally was.... the teacher is from China, and she's teaching in both traditional and simplified at the same time.  I can see she's mainly teaching in traditional, but some words, are in simplified.

Then my student said, we stopped chinese lessons last week.... many times. I asked her, how come? She said, "I don't know." Then I said, "so instead of chinese , what did your teacher do? She said just some english."

Maybe there is a good reason for it, but to my student, she just thinks they get chinese lessons whenever the teacher wants to, and also, the chinese homework since Sept, is completely nonsense.

2) Kid no. 2- also from RC, primary 3 girl.
This one says she gets chinese lesson everyday, but very short, sometimes 15 minutes, sometimes longer, sometimes only 5 minutes.
Now, some might think, maybe the kid doesn't know her "time" length wise, but nevertheless, from her lips, I understand she doesn't get the SAME methodical organized chinese lessons regularly.

She also wrote to me the chinese characters that she learned, and knows... she said they have to write paragraphs..... yet the chinese characters she learns are what other students learn, but they are 2 years younger). Very simple chinese characters.

3)Kid 3- CWB student:

Primary 1(grade 1)..... I asked him to write the letter names we use in Music. He can't even write beyond CDEF...... GABC is a huge challenge.
Letters B is written backwards sometimes.
Cannot write counting properly 1-2-3-4.
Cannot write his own chinese name.
The most unbelievable homework he told me one time was :I have to watch TV for half an hour with my mom.

Now I thought, it may be that it is the fact that they don't PUSH kids in ESF, however, I think it's a bit too far off by NOT keeping the kids up to standard and skills that they should know and have by certain age.

Or it's my wrong expectations? That a 5 year old should be able to write the alphabet? and count 1-10, and write his own name properly?

This is NOT made up. This is what I witnessed personally today.

Please tell me, is this what is acceptable to many ESF parents?

I am writing this with NO intention of causing arguments, I really really want to know whether I am being overly demanding, or this is the norm, and parents of ESF students accepts this.

Thanks, NO firing at me please. Just want to get some insight from ESF "fans" parents.

highfive

I think different people do have different expectations. My son is not yet 5, he can write the alphabet (but he does write some letters backwards sometimes), and he can surely count (1-100), but he can't and I don't expect him to write his Chinese name until maybe when he's 6. He can write some other simple Chinese characters though.

On an other hand, the mum of a western classmate of my son is calling what her 4-year-old son's writing training at school "ridiculous". She said back home they would not let children write until they are at least 5-6.

WYmom

Pianokc,

I just wonder why don't you ask your students' parents directly if you are so "curious" about their schools??  

My kids are studying in other ESF schools (not CWB), so I won't comment on RC students.  For ESF students,  as I have said before, standard of students can vary a lot (particular in year 1), as they do not select students based on academic reports from kinders.  They do not teach in the same way as local schools or local alike IS.  In year 1 (which equals to K3 of local schools), some kids may seldom write in kinders.  Teachers let the kids make mistakes in writings, encourage them to read and read, write and write more.   Spelling exercises only start in year 2.   They learn native English naturally without memorising hard, and when they proceed to year 2, 3 etc, they can write much better and more accurate.  For students who lack behind a lot, EAs will help them in small groups.  In year 3, they conduct public assessment on students to benchmark with UK standards.

From what you said, I feel that you in fact are not familar with ESF's way of teaching at all.  Anyway, if you feel so negative about ESF, why bother about it?  What's the problem with ESF parents supporting their kids' schools??  

If I were you, I would rather spend more time on my kids' desired schools and have a good sleep at night.

[ 本帖最後由 WYmom 於 09-12-5 10:50 編輯 ]

oooray

Sorry for saying something beyond your topic.
As a on-looker, I think I have figured it out why your speech is so hot.
Everyone is free to comment on any schools with or without any reasons.
I feel the reason why you are "fired", not because your +ve/-ve attitude towards ESF/non-ESF schools, but sometimes you make your conculsion illogically.
Everybody can express his/her feelings "I don't like ESF; all ESF schools are academically-poor, indiscipline schools and I won't send my children there, never, ever..." Nothing wrong with this.
But Please don't rationalize your feelings as an "always-true" theory by simply sharing your personally experiences, intelligences from your network, picking some cases from your piano class students.
Just to clarify I'm a RC and ESF kinder parent, should be classified one of "ESF supporters" as you mentioned.
To be honest, i don't care people sayiing that they are all lousy schools (Of course, I will not get "excited" even if people saying they are their dream schools).
If you still think your logic is logical, Enjoy expressing them freely.

mattsmum

原帖由 Pianokc 於 09-12-5 02:37 發表
After a series of heated discussion about ESF recently, and esp RC....I am going to be VERY careful with my choice of words here, but why I risk being "fired" and "attacked" by posting here is because ...

I don't think there is anything wrong.

my child could not write ABC in the beginning of K3.

getting a bit slow at the beginning does not mean that they will have problem at a higher level.

why primary students  don't  learn calculus?

oooray

原帖由 mattsmum 於 09-12-5 11:03 發表


I don't think there is anything wrong.

my child could not write ABC in the beginning of K3.

getting a bit slow at the beginning does not mean that they will have problem at a higher level.

why p ...

don't forget many parents enjoy IS education but also love to have as much as duck-feeding "knowledge" in their children's tummy.
That's personal choice. No absolute correct or wrong.

[ 本帖最後由 oooray 於 09-12-5 11:09 編輯 ]

Pianokc

DELETED.

DELETED

[ 本帖最後由 Pianokc 於 09-12-6 01:14 編輯 ]

almom

You have lived in Canada or the US. Why are you so concerned of kids not writing proper alphabets at Year 1? Year 1 at ESF are only 5 years old and kids at this age do not even go to Grade 1 in Canada and the US. Some kids basically never went to school before Grade 1 (ie 6 years old).
You can look at it in a different angle. Isn't it amazing how ESF schools did it? OK, kids could hardly write in Year 1, yet a few got full scores at IBD and many others got 40+. Many went on to ivy league schools or Oxbridge.

Regarding Chinese classes at RC, I really cannot comment on that. I have never heard of such cases where chinese classes are cancelled for an extended period of time, or traditional chinese and simplified chinese taught at the same time. This sounds quite impossible. If I were the parents, I would speak with the school.

In any case, there are kids with very different abilities and they bloom at different ages. You will see more of the "weak" kids at ESF or RC; but there are also lots of "strong" students as well. I have seen students from the whole spectrum.

I agree with other parents. Why bother with asking about ESF schools? If there are schools that I do not like (yep, there are quite a lot of them), I really do not even care to know more about them.
OK. I am an RC parent. And I am very supportive of other ESF schools. Like I said in another topic, I HAVE to be supportive. Everyone has to be supportive of their own schools.

[ 本帖最後由 almom 於 09-12-5 12:07 編輯 ]

hysterical

Regarding the Chinese lessons at RC, there is 40 mins of Chinese daily. Occasionally, Chinese lesson maybe cancelled for teachers' meeting but this is only on occasion.

If kid no. 1 is using primary 4 textbook, then she should be in year 6. My son is in Year 6, Chinese as Native Language (CNL) at RC, and they have NOT done anything similar to that of the kid no. 1. Also, they do NOT teach traditional and simplified Chinese simultaneously. Simp. Chinese is taught in CFL, Chinese as Foreign Language, and this class is for students who have very little Chinese exposure in the past. Other students are placed in CNL, Chinese as Native Language, and the class is taught in traditional Chinese only.

In CNL, they use Longman Chinese textbook and exercise book. They also have workbooks for biweekly reading reports (workbook A), writing exercises for dictation words from textbook (workbook B) and finally dictation workbook.

In my son's three years at RC, I have NEVER seen any thing like that of kid no. 1. I am also a very hands-on parent who frequently volunteers and helps in the classroom.

I have seen MANY students' Chinese work at school, and no matter which chinese class they are in, CNL or CFL, their workbooks are neat and without doodling. They are NOT asked to copy paragraphs from the board, and the Chinese teachers are well-qualified and will NOT teach them the wrong characters.

The RC students have various backgrounds, and so they are divided into different levels of Chinese class. Please remember that RC teaches Chinese as a SECOND LANGUAGE, and I find the teachers and the curriculum to be acceptable.

For kid no. 1, I would highly recommend for the parents to TALK TO THE TEACHER. Something is wrong with that picture. Just because of one very strange case, does not give someone the right to judge the entire boat. One or two students do not qualify one as an expert on the situation and certainly does not equate to MANY students as someone said earlier.

As a concerned educator, you should instead recommend the parents to find out what is wrong, and talk directly to the Chinese teacher or the department head. To sit there and spread rumors without basis is simply unbelievable. Very shocking for someone who claims to be so knowledgeable in education and whatever.

I hope this clears up the rumors about Chinese lesson at RC once and for all.

Pianokc

This is the last clarification I am going to write. no matter I am trying to ask a question or say something, it is treated as rumour. If I knew the answer, I wouldn't post this question.

I repeat. I am not trying to spread rumours, and my opinion about this certain school is never based on ONE student's feedback.

I have learned much about esf parents, it shows how united you all are, thank you for showing me your powers.

I give up. Will seek info definitely elsewhere.

Hysterical, kid no.1 isn't delusional, neither is the mother or helper. This example is just yesterday's students. She is in p4.

Maybe she isn't really going to rc. Thanks.
If I cant write about things based on own experience, then I have no idea how.

[ 本帖最後由 Pianokc 於 09-12-5 14:55 編輯 ]

Pianokc

See, say anything possibly critical or negative about rc, it's a rumour. Non esf parent shouldnt speak.

Very clear now. Sorry !

原帖由 hysterical 於 09-12-5 14:04 發表
Regarding the Chinese lessons at RC, there is 40 mins of Chinese daily. Occasionally, Chinese lesson maybe cancelled for teachers' meeting but this is only on occasion.

If kid no. 1 is using primary  ...

iamfine

ESF is a non-selective schools (ESF = excluding selection; first comes-first served).  There are bound to be a good mix of people of different personality and diverse background.  It is up to an individual to place more emphasis on learning the piano than writing Chinese at certain age.  Nothing wrong with that.  I actually know a gweilo who refused to let his kids go to ESF a few years ago because he did not want them to do any writing before 8 (but he had them started the the cello and violin at 4).  His kids turn out just fine.

[ 本帖最後由 iamfine 於 09-12-5 16:03 編輯 ]

chingyu

Exactly.  I am not a ESF parent too.  I also recognise some brilliant graduates from ESF or Yew Chung too.  As per their parents, the school doesn't push the students too hard when they were small.  My 14-year-old nephew is studying Chemistry in the top uni in UK now but his spellling and arithmetic both were poor in primary.

原帖由 thankful 於 09-12-5 17:34 發表
The standard of Chinese, even English, maths and all other subjects, varies widely from student to student even within the same school. Some are very good and some are very bad. Some students are slow ...

oooray

Be open-minded; life will be easier and happier!

yeung2212

Hi Pianokc
Quote : "We are looking at missing strokes, missing parts to some basic chinese characters, and in each sentence, she left boxes blank. I asked her why is it blank, she said, because I don't know how to write it. I said, I thought you copied it from the board, she said, yes, but IWe are looking at missing strokes, missing parts to some basic chinese characters, and in each sentence, she left boxes blank. I asked her why is it blank, she said, because I don't know how to write it. I said, I thought you copied it from the board, she said, yes, but I don't know how to write the words she is writing, and it's time to go.
So I said, what are you doing with this homework, she said, I have to read it."

********************************
My child is studying in RC. Exactly, he has encountered the problem as you said.
He left many blanks in the boxes or missed the parts in the Chinese character. I have asked him why he can't copied from the broad. He also said he doesn't know how to write the words she is writing.
I am so strange as my son has already known that words but he can't understand what the teacher's writing.

****************************
Quote: "Then my student said, we stopped chinese lessons last week.... many times. I asked her, how come? She said, "I don't know." Then I said, "so instead of chinese , what did your teacher do? She said just some english."

*********************************

My son said the Chinese lesson sometimes has been cancelled without reason. The teacher only lets the students to play at classroom.


Therefore, your observation about the two RC students are right.

Pianokc

Yeung2212,

Thank you for your reply. well as I said, I am not going to ask or comment about ESF, or RC anymore as you can see, if you say anything negative (even as a question), you will get "fired" at.

But others who are not ESF parent can speak positive things about ESF. Negative things, then they will say you are NOT and ESF parent therefore you have no right to speak, or you should go find out yourself, or I am spreading rumours.

I just wanted to understand more because it affects my teaching to these students who are receiving such education.

No writing is ok, well, then I guess I have to stop notespeller games or exercises with the ESF kids that are under P3.
Then, they don't have to sit long time either, and then exactly, my RC kids (more than 4 right now...) says they play all the time.....

You are special, you are a RC parent, and you see the same thing I saw.... thank you for speaking up.

BTW, I didn't say the Chinese Teacher is teaching simultaneously Traditional and simplified, according to the student, it seems like the teacher is from China, and she writes without noticing sometimes that she wrote some words in Simplified.....

My P4 student also said she doesn't have a textbook, because I asked her for her textbook to see..... she said she doesn't have one.

Yeung2212, I better stop, I have to PM you.

原帖由 yeung2212 於 09-12-6 00:27 發表
Hi Pianokc
Quote : "We are looking at missing strokes, missing parts to some basic chinese characters, and in each sentence, she left boxes blank. I asked her why is it blank, she said, because I don' ...

Pianokc

Brilliant kids are brilliant no matter where they go, however, if you send them to better schools, and give them more, they will excel more.

Your nephew is brilliant, but it doesn't mean it's entirely because of ESF's system.

Am sure every school has their scholars, with the number of students all under the ESF system, they better have some brilliant graduates in their statistics.

This has NOTHING to do with what I was asking.

原帖由 chingyu 於 09-12-5 19:42 發表
Exactly.  I am not a ESF parent too.  I also recognise some brilliant graduates from ESF or Yew Chung too.  As per their parents, the school doesn't push the students too hard when they were small.  M ...

[ 本帖最後由 Pianokc 於 09-12-6 01:18 編輯 ]

oooray

原帖由 yeung2212 於 09-12-6 00:27 發表
Hi Pianokc
Quote : "We are looking at missing strokes, missing parts to some basic chinese characters, and in each sentence, she left boxes blank. I asked her why is it blank, she said, because I don' ...

Hi Yeung2212,
1. As a RC parent, I will not challenge Pianokc's quote because these were her personal experiences; (whether her conclusion is logical is another issue);
2. Are you satisfied with the quality of Chinese Lesson you son is having now? If not, have you contacted your class teachers and Chinese teachers for such arrangment?
I am always informed by the class teacher in case of any classes re-arrangement due to special events in the class?
3. I believe there are good teachers and no good teachers in any schools. Parents don't have the right to choose a teacher but in case of big issues, we should urge for improvement. If not, one day my children may encounter the same problem.
4. My daughter is in Year 1 and I feel the Chinese Homework is quite demanding now; similar to what a local kindergarten K2 level (Of course, teacher does not expect "perfect" writing as in local kindergarten.

almom

原帖由 oooray 於 09-12-6 08:19 發表

Hi Yeung2212,
1. As a RC parent, I will not challenge Pianokc's quote because these were her personal experiences; (whether her conclusion is logical is another issue);
2. Are you satisfied with the  ...

Wanted to PM you but somehow it did not go through.
I think the discussion is getting very illogical.
If there is an incompetent student "A", the school is bad.
If there is a brilliant student "B", it has nothing to do with the school.
So no matter what students they see, the school is just not good.
Let's settle with the "convenient" conclusion (at least, it is convenient to some), and not waste time.

[ 本帖最後由 almom 於 09-12-6 10:16 編輯 ]