Who is reading or Who are reading?

Jsmami

Rham,
Very well said!  Thank you.  

A mummy here suggested to write to Longman for clarification.  I love to see how the editor responds.  Is it really his mistake in the example?  Having said that, I have spotted mistakes in many english books though.

Rham

原文章由 Jsmami 於 07-11-24 08:43 硐表
A mummy here suggested to write to Longman for clarification.  I love to see how the editor responds.  Is it really his mistake in the example?  Having said that, I have spotted mistakes in many english books though.

It's a good idea.  I'd love to hear that.  The publisher claims that the series has been used in Singapore by almost half of the schools for several years.  Considering that the average (I only said average) standard of English in Singapore is higher than that in Hong Kong, it is likely that such problems should have been ironed out already.  However, it seems that the one in Hong Kong has been adapted to the Hong Kong environment, it's not sure if it is exactly the same as that in Singapore.

Having said that, yes, it is not uncommon to find mistakes in textbooks, especially those translated ones.

[ 本文章最後由 Rham 於 07-11-24 11:40 編輯 ]

uncleedward

Dear Rham

I have carefully read the articles you referred to. It seems to me that they support the use of "Who are" in this context.

Rham

原文章由 uncleedward 於 07-11-24 22:04 硐表
Dear Rham

I have carefully read the articles you referred to. It seems to me that they support the use of "Who are" in this context.

I am not exactly sure why you say so.

I have just checked englishforums.com, which is a forum for discussion of the usage of English.  I check this forum from time to time and learnt quite a lot there.  I found a discussion thread related to what we are talking about:

"Who is / are online?"
http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoIsAreOnline/vgvnw/Post.htm
Be sure to read the second page.

You can also see that using singular is very common in other websites, you can find lots of them by a google search, e.g.

http://teacherfair.byu.edu/student.php
"Who is Coming?
See a list of those employers who are coming in March 2007."

http://www.soaringwords.org/New%20Orleans%20FAQ.htm
Who is coming on the Mission?
Our goal is to have a delegation of SoaringChampions from around the country. The participants will include working professionals who are coming with co-workers and forming company teams ......

Back to the exercise itself, my view is that any grammatically correct sentence that is related to the picture should be acceptable.  If you are being imaginative, you can say
"Who is looking at THIS picture?"
(The answer is the teacher!)

Why do you think the question MUST be in concord with the answer?  Subject-verb agreement only applies within a sentence.  There is no grammar rule saying that a question must agree with the answer.

Imagine when a boss talks to his subordinates.

"Who is the boss?"
"I am the boss!"

He surely wouldn't ask
"Who am the boss?"

[ 本文章最後由 Rham 於 07-11-25 21:27 編輯 ]

uncleedward

Dear Rham

The topic has turned out to be more interesting than I thought. I cannot help but explain my thinking a bit more.

The following was copied from one of your reference and it summarises the points quite well:

"At first, I thought the problem was that who and what just about always take a singular verb, even if we know we’re talking about more than one who or more than one what. For example, even if I tell you, “A lot of people are coming to my party,” it would sound pretty strange for you to ask, “Really? Who are coming?” And even if I tell you that there were a lot of items on the breakfast buffet, you wouldn’t ask, “What were there?” You’d say “What was there?” The only exception that I can think of is the case where the verb is a form of be, and after it is a plural noun phrase, as in the examples below:
1.        Who are these people?
2.        Who were they? "

I am not arguing against the use of "is" in "who is coming?" Actually, we have similar usage in Cantonese. If we are holding a party and we will ask "who is coming?" in English and "邊個會嚟?" in Cantonese.  

The use of "who is" is called for here because we are not referring to a particular person or persons when we ask the questions. When we use "who are", we are referring to a particular group of persons. You can see another example in the other reference quoted by you.

"Who is online? If you want to see who is online, click on "Who is online".
Who are the users online? If you want to see the users who are online, click on "Users who are online"."

[ 本文章最後由 uncleedward 於 07-11-26 00:47 編輯 ]

Rham

Dear uncleedward,

正如你之前所講，who 無話必然單數定雙數，在乎你問題的意圖。但我想補充一句，這意圖要在你的問題的其他地方反映出來，因為 subject-verb agreement 是要求個 verb 與你寫了出來的 subject 去 agree，而唔係你心中想而無寫出來的東西 agree.

所以
Look at the girls.  Who are they?

這裡一定要用 are，因為 they 是眾數。

但
Who is reading?
習慣上用單數，因為句子中沒有任何東西是眾數。

有些人說 "who" is singular by default.

咁啱，我都想過用"邊個會嚟?"做例子。你問"邊個會嚟?"對方可以答其中一個，兩個或所有人的名字。你問"邊幾個會嚟?"你係期望對方答唔之一個，而且會被人意會為要講晒所有會來的人。

問 "Who is reading?"，答案可以係以下任何一個

Jill is reading.

Sue is reading.

Jill is reading.  Sue is reading.

Jill and Sue are reading.

I don't know.

等。

"Who are reading?" 就一定要對方答晒。好似唔係好禮貌咁，所以日常生活好少用。

咁樣講是否 make sense?

uncleedward

Just to add one more point. As a lot of people have pointed out, the exercise is for P2 students and we are not supposed to introduce the complexity of advanced grammar and usage at this stage.

In the adult world, we probably would not ask the question in the way as implied in this exercise. We would have stuctured the question differently like:

Two children are reading a book together over there. Who are they?

Who are the children reading a book together over there?

Again, they are too complex for P2 students. Then, we have this exercise with an awkard use of "who are" (or "who is" if one insists).

[ 本文章最後由 uncleedward 於 07-11-26 14:45 編輯 ]

Rham

原文章由 uncleedward 於 07-11-26 14:41 硐表

Just to add one more point. As a lot of peoplehave pointed out, the exercise is for P2 students and we are notsupposed to introduce the complexity of advanced grammar and usage atthis stage.

We DON'T need to explain the complicated grammar to P2 students.  I absolutely agree with you on this.

In the adult world, we probably would not ask the question in the wayas implied in this exercise. We would have stuctured the questiondifferently like:

Two children are reading a book together over there. Who are they?

Who are the children reading a book together over there?

Again, they are too complex for P2 students.

"Who are reading a book together?" is just fine.

Then, we have this exercise with an awkard use of "who are" (or "who is" if one insists).

It doesn't matter what I think.  The only thing that matters is what the native speakers actually use in such a situation.  I have already quoted numerous examples to show that native speakers would use a singular question even though the answer is certainly plural.

Rham

this exercise is just for junior primary students to learn some basicEnglish grammar but not for those scholars to argue on the correct useof English grammar.

The discussions are for those interested in discussing this topic.  Not for the P2 students.

As long as the students keep on reading lots of good books and have sufficient exposure to "real life" English, there is no worry and you may not even need to explain the grammar rules to them (yet).

uncleedward

You said:

"'Who are reading a book together?' is just fine.'

I'm afraid it is not exactly fine although it is the answer implied in the exercise. This is classroom English. It can be used when the teacher is pointing at the children in the picture and asking students to answer the question.

We just do not ask questions in this way in real life if we'd like to find out the names of the children reading the book.

Curiously, you were using "are" as well in your question. As you can see, adding "together" to the end of the question already helps explain why "are" instead of "is" is the better answer for this particular question.

[ 本文章最後由 uncleedward 於 07-11-27 02:28 編輯 ]

Rham

原文章由 uncleedward 於 07-11-27 02:20 硐表
You said:

I'm afraid it is not exactly fine although it is the answer implied in the exercise. This is classroom English. It can be used when the teacher is pointing at the children in the picture and asking students to answer the question.

No, you don't need to point at the children because "reading a book together" is clear enough who you are talking about, assuming you are looking at the picture.

We just do not ask questions in this way in real life if we'd like to find out the names of the children reading the book.

There are so many different ways in real life to talk about the picture.  We have only discussed a few of them.  My point, from the very beginning, is that we should be open minded and should expect a wide variety of answers instead of insisting on ONE single correct answer.

Curiously, you were using "are" as well in your question. As you can see, adding "together" to the end of the question already helps explain why "are" instead of "is" is the better answer for this particular question.

Yes, I'm glad you noticed that.  "together" carries a sense of plurality and that's why "are" is required.  This is what I called "agreement".

uncleedward

Dear Rham

Pointing at the picture is just the typical method a teacher uses. As you said, "looking at the picture" is assumed here. It is then in a classroom environment. Believe me, in real life we don't ask questions like this.

Adding "together" helps us see "are" is the BETTER answer for the original question.

I am sorry that I haven't been able to convince you, but that's life.

[ 本文章最後由 uncleedward 於 07-11-27 12:08 編輯 ]

Rham

原文章由 uncleedward 於 07-11-27 12:07 硐表 Adding "together" helps us see "are" is the BETTER answer for the original question.

I see your point but I'm sorry that I don't agree with you.

原文章由 uncleedward 於 07-11-27 12:07 硐表 I am sorry that I haven't been able to convince you, but that's life.

We don't need to agree, do we?  That's exactly what I have been saying from the very beginning.  Sometimes, there are better ways to re-write a sentence but sometimes, it is just a matter of how do you perceive the situation.  The British and the Amercans often disagree on whether to use singular or plural after a collective noun.

Besides, I think we have different philosophies on what and how to teach the kids.  If I were a teacher, I would be pleasantly surprised to get an answer like this:

"Who is jumping? Nobody!"

[ 本文章最後由 Rham 於 07-11-27 23:03 編輯 ]

odelia_ho

Dear all,

我問過一位學歷頗高的英國人, 解釋完了我的問題後, 他第一個反應就是要用"Who is reading under the tree". 因為這是一個定律, 沒有得解釋, 冇論見倒有多少人, 都是用Who
is.  但如果要問, 那兩個是甚麼人, 就會用 "Who are the two girls"  就是這樣囉. 要記住這個定律呀.

原文章由 Rham 於 07-11-27 23:01 發表


I see your point but I'm sorry that I don't agree with you.



We don't need to agree, do we?  That's exactly what I have been saying from the very beginning.  Sometimes, there are better ways to re ...

Rham

原文章由 odelia_ho 於 07-12-17 09:16 發表
Dear all,

我問過一位學歷頗高的英國人, 解釋完了我的問題後, 他第一個反應就是要用"Who is reading under the tree". 因為這是一個定律, 沒有得解釋, 冇論見倒有多少人, 都是用Who
is.  但如果要問, 那兩個是甚麼人, 就會用 "Who are the two girls"  就是這樣囉. 要記住這個定律呀.

我都講咗好多次，我問過的 native speakers 都係話即使明知好多人，都係用 "Who is reading?" 點解？都係無得解！但有些人總認為是違反常理，我無話可說，所以都賴得回應某君無禮的指責，我勸你都唔好講咁多，免得被人說 confuse 人！

Jsmami

Rham,
"ditto"

Rham

原文章由 Jsmami 於 07-12-17 21:48 發表
Rham,
"ditto"

謝謝你的認同。

忍唔住講多句，以小朋友今時今日讀的書的量和我們那一代小時候相比，實在很可笑。若有小朋友今時今日讀的英文書要比我們當年還少的，那才是奇怪，拿這樣東西來誇口的相信就只有那位仁兄了！