母 語 教 學 是 罪 魁 禍 首 ?

precious

Y2KChild 寫道:

I repeat to stress that there is no absolute right or wrong if we got different views. We are freely to express our views.......

There is no absolute right or wrong if we got 'different views' and we are 'free' to express, but here, different views are........ 'not deserved to say', 'non-sense', 'not be respectful' and 'irresponsive'..

My son is studying in a Chinese Primary School as I have told, and he is only P.2.  Is it too early for you to judge my act?   

Frankly speaking, even you yourself do not really believe "Chinese as teaching medium" is the best way of education. You only support in mouth and also support other kids to use but not yours!!!

好啦, 唔想再食你嘅死貓啦!   收爐!  新年進步!

WYmom

precious,

Studying in Chinese primary school is the norm in HK as it is only primary and there are not many real English primary schools.  I know many parents sending the kids to Chinese primary to learn Chinese first, then continue secondary in EMI or IS to improve English to facilitate further studies in U.  

So will you plan to let your kid study in Chinese secondary school as well if the status of CMI is unchanged?  If yes, this is real support of 母 語 教 學.

youma

稍安無躁. 不如輕鬆一下, 看看鄧亞萍如何學英語, 挺有趣的.
-------------------------------------------------

鄧亞萍/ 世界冠軍求學的艱辛路
2005-10-7【大公網訊】如果亞運會、世乒賽和奧運會的冠軍是我乒乓球生涯的三大滿貫，那麼清華獲得學士學位、諾丁漢大學碩士畢業和取得康橋博士，就是我要完成的另一項大滿貫。
——鄧亞萍

1997年退役進入清華大學，2001年拿下學士學位，同年9月進入英國諾丁漢大學，2002年12月12日，獲碩士學位，同年進入英國康橋大學經濟學專業攻讀博士學位。鄧亞萍用求學路上一路奮鬥的故事講述了一個世界冠軍求學的懸梁歲月……
清華：從寫26個英文字母開始
「臨近退役時，我便開始設計自己將來的路，有人認為運動員只能在自己熟悉的運動項目中繼續工作，而我就是要證明：運動員不僅能夠打好比賽，同時也能做好其他事情。哪天我不當運動員了，我的新起點也就開始了。」鄧亞萍說。
「1996年底，我被薩老提名為國際奧會運動委員會委員。我明白，這既是國際奧會的重用和信任，也是一次嚴峻的挑戰。奧會的辦公語言是英語和法語。然而，這時我的英語基礎幾乎是零，法語也是一竅不通。面對如此重要的工作崗位和自己外語水準的反差，我心里急得火上房。」
1996年亞特蘭大奧運會結束後，鄧亞萍以英語專業本科生的身份初進清華時，她的英文幾乎是一張白紙，既沒有英文的底子，更別說有口語交流的能力。
「懷著興奮而又忐忑的心情邁進清華大學。老師想看看我的水準——你寫出26個英文字母看看。我費了一陣心思總算寫了出來，看著一會兒大寫、一會兒小寫的字母，我有些不好意思——老師，就這個樣子了。但請老師放心，我一定努力！」
「上課時老師的講述對我而言無異於天書，我只能盡力一字不漏地聽著、記著，回到宿舍，再一點點翻字典，一點點硬啃硬記。我給自己制定了學習計劃：一切從零開始，堅持三個第一—從課本第一頁學起，從第一個字母、第一個單詞背起；一天必須保證14個小時的學習時間，每天5點準時起床，讀音標、背單詞、練聽力，直到正式上課；晚上整理講義，溫習功課，直到深夜12點。」由於全身心地投入學習，鄧亞萍幾乎完全取消了與朋友的聚會及無關緊要的社會活動，就連給父母打電話的次數也大大減少。為了提高自己的聽力和會話能力，她除了定期光顧語音室，還買來多功能復讀機。由於總是一邊聽磁帶，一邊跟著讀。同學們總是跟她開玩笑：「亞萍，你成天讀個不停，當心嘴唇磨出繭子呀！」「但我相信：沒有超人的付出，就不會有超人的成績。這也是我多年闖蕩賽場的切身體驗。」
學習是緊張的，每天的課程都排得滿滿的。除學習之外，鄧亞萍每周還要三次往返幾十里路到國家隊訓練基地進行訓練，疲勞程度可想而知。
「每天清晨起床時，我都會發現枕頭上有許多頭髮，梳頭的時候也會有不少頭髮脫落下來。對此我並不太在意，倒是教練和隊友見到我十分驚訝：‘小鄧，你怎麼了？’我說：‘沒什麼，可能是學習的用腦和打球的用腦不一樣吧。’」
「雖然都是一個‘苦’字，但此時的我卻有不一樣的感受：以前當運動員，訓練累得實在動不了，只要一聽到加油聲，一咬牙，挺過來了；遇到了難題、關坎，教練一點撥，通了；比賽遇到困難，觀眾一陣吼聲，勁頭上來了，轉危為安。但讀書呢，常常要一個人孤零零面壁苦思，那種清苦、孤獨是另一種折磨，沒意志、沒恒心是堅持不下去的。」
為了更快地掌握英語，幾位英語老師建議鄧亞萍到國外去學習一段時間，在他們的熱心幫助下，經清華大學和國家體育總局批准，1998年初，剛在清華讀了幾個月的鄧亞萍作為交換生被送到英國康橋大學突擊英語。
康橋：每天淩晨5點起床攻讀
1998年2月26日鄧亞萍懷著複雜的心情，飛向康橋。對她來說，這自然是非常難得的機會，但卻又是一個艱難的起步。
「第二天就是開學上課的日子，全班一共9個同學，教室不大，9張課桌椅向著黑板，擺成半圓形。老師先讓大家做自我介紹。接下來給每人發了兩張講義就開始講課，課堂上沒什麼紀律，講解方式也很隨意，老師一邊講課，同學們一邊七嘴八舌地搶著回答問題。我在雲山霧罩中上完了課。四五個星期過去了，每天十五、六個小時的付出，但收效並不大，英語水準的提高也不顯著。作為一個插班生要趕上其他同學困難太大。加上沒有教材，每次上課才能拿到老師發的講義，這種教學方法也很難讓我適應。」
「生活的環境也不盡如人意。到英國留學的留學生，多數都是住在學校所安排的英國人家里，我也不例外。本想住在英國人家里，一來可以更多地了解英國的風俗民情，二來可以有更多的英語會話機會。但是我所居住的這個女房東家，距學校太遠，而且房費伙食費很高，每月除了要交200多英鎊房租，還要交100多英鎊飯費，兩項合起來每月的支出約合人民幣將近5000元。對於自費到英國上學的我來說，惜金和惜時同樣重要。」
「記得當我頭一次穿著防雨運動衣，騎著自行車到學校時，許多同學見了都大為不解：怎麼世界冠軍還騎自行車來上學？是啊，世界冠軍也是凡人，我的所有，是我用汗水換來的，它來之不易，我必須十分珍惜它。學習和生活上的困難困擾著我，我急切盼望能改變這種狀況。」
「剛到英國不久，我想往家寄點錢，然而到郵局拿了單子，卻不知如何填寫，郵局的人在單子上指指點點，我卻一臉茫然，我站在郵局前，兩眼發呆，我能怎麼辦？問誰去？問了，自己還是聽不懂，最後，只好悻悻而歸。」
「開學前，為了讓我熟悉一下環境，房東開車送我去學校轉了一圈。第二天人家不送了，我雖然買了輛自行車，卻找不到上學的路了，七拐八拐，趕到學校已經上課了。一向守時的我成了遲到生。我急得迸出幾個單詞解釋，然而解釋不明白，那滋味，那窘迫，現在都忘不了！」
鄧亞萍就讀的紐漢姆學院是隸屬康橋大學的一所小學院，類似於國內的語言進修學院。這里的學生主要以外國留學生為主，而鄧亞萍是唯一來自中國內地的留學生。
「剛到康橋的那段時間，我雖然比較刻苦，效果卻不明顯。我知道，這是因為自己的語言基礎還相當薄弱，要想在康橋這個精英雲集的學府里站得住、學得好，更需要全力以赴地去拼搏。做學問與體育訓練一樣，沒有任何捷徑可尋，更不會有天上掉餡餅的美事兒，一切靠自己去拼去搏吧。」為了趕功課，鄧亞萍起早貪黑，每天只睡幾小時。
「開始的一兩個月之內，根本聽不懂老師在上面講什麼，我把老師所有寫在黑板上的東西照抄一遍。回到家里以後，自己再翻字典，再看。每天的生活比較單調，上課時間是四個半小時。下了課還有很多作業，吃飯對我來說好像都很費事，中午休息的時間只有一個小時，我一般都不回宿舍，就是吃上午帶去的三明治，然後看一會兒書。晚上經常吃的東西就是自己做的方便麵條加青菜、番茄和雞蛋。幾乎每天都要學習到12點才能睡覺。」
雖然基礎比其他同學差，她總是不甘心，想超過別人。這種好勝的心理後來才慢慢開始轉變：「畢竟基礎不同，從運動員到學生是一個非常大的轉折，學習上升也要有個過程。」
回到清華，鄧亞萍的畢業論文題目是《國球的歷史及發展》。從開題報告、到第一次提交論文、以至論文的最終修訂，鄧亞萍不僅每一項都達到標準，而且步步提前，趕在時間表前完成。
「我終於戴上了學士帽，在畢業典禮上，我用流利的英語向老師致詞。」
諾丁漢：一看她學習的勁頭就知道她是世界冠軍
2001年9月，鄧亞萍從清華走進英國諾丁漢大學攻讀碩士。「原本更喜歡康橋，那里風景可人，令我心醉。可我還是投奔了諾丁漢大學，因為諾丁漢大學有全英國最棒的外語系。」
「導師對我不太了解，似乎有些不放心，擔心一個運動員能否完成學業。我懇切地對導師說：我可能比您的其他學生基礎要差，請你多費心了，別人能聽懂的課程，我可能要兩次甚至多次，別人需要一年，我可能需要一年半甚至兩年。但不管費多少力、多長時間，我都要把學業拿下來！我是那種很要強，性子也很

youma

回應:
1.        强如鄧亞萍, 也需要全英語環境加上無比堅毅去學習英語, 那麽我們脆弱的孩子, 身處在廣東話的環境裏, 又如何學好英語?
2.        母語授課會否卻把我們的孩子再往後拉? This is what I am worrying.
3.        如果僅僅是一兩個高官[一時錯手]送了子女出國讀書, 那無話可說; 但是如今幾乎個個教育高官和語常委員都一面送子女出國, 一面卻宣傳母語教學有多好又仍可學好英語,.. 吓!真的當我地家長傻ge?

祝大家新年進步, 細路聽教聽話.

uncleedward

I have refrained myself from participating in this never-ending discussion, but I think I really have to make a try to clear one point for Judy. A number of parents doubt why parents supporting 母 語 教 學 send their kids to EMIs. Their choices are perfectly logical if they believe their kids are able ones or even gifted ones. Pui Ching is a good school, but I think most parents will still think slightly higher of St Paul's Co-ed. Teaching language is an important consideration but the environment and the quality of the fellow students are more important. This is the situation in Hong Kong. EMIs for historical reasons have been able to attract better students. In return, the students and the parents make the school a better school.

For a fair comparison, we should follow two groups of students with similar standard, with one group going to EMIs and the other CMIs, and track their progress and compare their HKCE results. The data are hard to get by for parents like us but we can tell one thing or two from the following.

I went to two CMIs' websites (both taking in some band 3 students annually with a significant number of students from new immigrant families as well) and extracted the following information:

Shool A 中學會考最佳六科增值級數屬增值最高的第九級 with HKCE passing rate (the best 5 subjects) at 95%.

School B 中、英、數、化四科連續三年達最佳增值分數，英、數兩科更連續五年取得 with HKCE passing rate at 96% and the percentage of grade C or above is an admirable 40%.

They are impressive, aren't they? Without 母 語 教 學, I doubt whether they could have achieved the same results.

If we go to check the 2nd tier EMIs, how many could achieve the same HKCE results?

ChiChiPaPa

Uncleedward,

Please name the schools and so we can verify and make comparisons, even though it could be hard to make comparisons, because there are only a few EMI with known percentages of band 3 students:

Wah Yan College, 24% Band 2, 1.1% Band 3
St Francis' Canossian College, 44% Band 2, 2% Band 3
Hoi Ping Chamber of Commerce Secondary, 0.5% Band3
Wah Yan College, Kowloon, 1.1% Band 3

ChiChiPaPa

youma 寫道:
回應:
3.        如果僅僅是一兩個高官[一時錯手]送了子女出國讀書, 那無話可說; 但是如今幾乎個個教育高官和語常委員都一面送子女出國, 一面卻宣傳母語教學有多好又仍可學好英語,.. 吓!真的當我地家長傻ge?

祝大家新年進步, 細路聽教聽話.

可能是因為好似UncleEdward所說的，他們的子女都是able ones or gifted ones，而我們的子女就比較normal。冇計。

uncleedward

ChiChiPaPa 寫道:
[quote]
youma 寫道:
回應:
3.        如果僅僅是一兩個高官[一時錯手]送了子女出國讀書, 那無話可說; 但是如今幾乎個個教育高官和語常委員都一面送子女出國, 一面卻宣傳母語教學有多好又仍可學好英語,.. 吓!真的當我地家長傻ge?

祝大家新年進步, 細路聽教聽話.

可能是因為好似UncleEdward所說的，他們的子女都是able ones or gifted ones，而我們的子女就比較normal。冇計。[/quote]

I knew it. I knew that once started, I could not stop.

If I were Arthur Li or Mrs Law, I could well send my kids overseas even if they are no more than common.

1. They are under constant attacks. Why do they want their kids to be involved. Kids' world is only a reflection of the adult world;

2. It could be a good option itself. For example, the affluent parents in the UK tend to send their kids to the public schools away from home. While you can afford it, why not? My brother has sent both his sons to England starting from F1. I would have followed suit if it had not been resisted by my wife.

I will reword my remark again. Parents send their kids to EMIs becuase they are under the impression that by this their kids would be studying together with able or gifted students even though their kids may well not be.

uncleedward

ChiChiPaPa 寫道:
Uncleedward,

Please name the schools and so we can verify and make comparisons, even though it could be hard to make comparisons, because there are only a few EMI with known percentages of band 3 students:

Wah Yan College, 24% Band 2, 1.1% Band 3
St Francis' Canossian College, 44% Band 2, 2% Band 3
Hoi Ping Chamber of Commerce Secondary, 0.5% Band3
Wah Yan College, Kowloon, 1.1% Band 3

Dear ChiChiPaPa

I attach the relevant web page of School B for your checking. You may well have an educated guess on School A's name judging from my heated debate with some other parents elsewhere.

http://www.heungto.edu.hk/~saml/doc/2006/studies.pdf

ChiChiPaPa

uncleedward 寫道:

I knew it. I knew that once started, I could not stop.

If I were Arthur Li or Mrs Law, I could well send my kids overseas even if they are no more than common.

1. They are under constant attacks. Why do they want their kids to be involved. Kids' world is only a reflection of the adult world;

2. It could be a good option itself. For example, the affluent parents in the UK tend to send their kids to the public schools away from home. While you can afford it, why not? My brother has sent both his sons to England starting from F1. I would have followed suit if it had not been resisted by my wife.

I will reword my remark again. Parents send their kids to EMIs becuase they are under the impression that by this their kids would be studying together with able or gifted students even though their kids may well not be.

原來你認為教學語言的重要性很低，而要找到那家學校有gifted or able  ones才是最重要。去外國讀，完全沒有母語都唔係問題。可能Judy都係咁睇。

原來母語教學政策有助把gifted or able ones集中在小部份英文中學，所以你地咁支持。原來母語教學只是對D唔係able ones有用。早講。只要投資落學前和小學教育，到時，大部份係able ones，就不再需要現在的母語教學政策。照你講，依家大部份係中文中學，即係大部份都唔係able ones，咁香港重會有競爭力。

ChiChiPaPa

uncleedward 寫道:


Dear ChiChiPaPa

I attach the relevant web page of School B for your checking. You may well have an educated guess on School A's name judging from my heated debate with some other parents elsewhere.

http://www.heungto.edu.hk/~saml/doc/2006/studies.pdf

香島中學係直資中學，用普通話教中文，有學生應考英語課程甲。Banding Percentage 冇公佈，但Band 3生升中，應該入唔到(有關係的、識人的學生就唔知)。如果它只有5成Band One，就可以和St Francis' Canossian College比，不過，真係唔知香島的Banding Percentage，但就有很多有公佈Banding Percentage的中文中學可以和St Francis'Canossian College比比。如果知道香島的Banding Percentage，就請分享，直資中學，好多人都想入。

lydia

It's true 母 語 教 學 to certain extent will downgrade our english level in school learning.  Time is limited resources, how can we gain more understanding, thinking and expression in knowledge, and at the same time maintain the good level of English as usual?

But if the 母 語 教 學 (Putongha, not Cantonese) can extend not only limited to the Chinese lesson, but also to all subjects in Chinese, then our Putongha level can be upgraded, which will sacrify our loss in English level.

I read a newspaper article that >40% increase of US students chose Putongha as a 2nd language in schools last year. No one will deny that China expansion will be faster than what we can imagine. More foreigners prefer to communicate w/ China. If HK people can speak Putongha fluently, our competitor power can be maintained. As our Putongha level is almost the same as China people while English level can be maintained to a certain level which will be higher than China average.

The structure, grammer and writing skill are almost the same (no matter they are Putongha or Cantonese) it will be easier for our kids to pick up all chinese subjects in Putongha. While they can speak fluent in Putongha in school as fluent as Cantonese in family, I think it will be a real benefit of 母 語 教 學.

But if only Putongha in Chinese lesson and Cantonese for all others, that will not be the real 母 語 教 學.

lydia

But to achieve Putongha as teaching language in all subjects, except English subject, Arthur Li or Mrs Fang should introduce top teachers or graduates from Beijing Chnig Wah or top Universities to teach in HK by contractual terms, not for students from P1 to S5, but to all teachers (except English subject). We should admit our teachers in all grades should increase value (to provide on-job training). The world is changing. They can open their eyes to learn putongha as a language and at the same time can get teaching idea from other countries.

Introducing Beijing teachers to upgrade our teachers is only an example, we can extend the same idea to other subject, say English professor in Eng Lit to our English teachers who will also gain in different teaching methods and cultures from the other part of world.

Once our teachers keep open eyes and minds to the world, then our kids can have worldwide sense in studying.

Arthur Li only throw money to the individual schools which is not the right way. Education system is a whole in HK. We should not leave this to any individual principal/school. Even one or two school can do excellent while the other not, it will only create the band 1, 2, 3,4, 5. There will be big difference between band 1 to 5. We cannot give up the band 5 schools or students. This will create the pressure of killing schools or teachers.

Why not Arthur Li / Mrs Fang think about how to use the money $1600000000 AS A WHOLE to upgrade teachers, release their pressure (give them the guidelines), instead of to individual principal who will push his teachers to do this and that very hard but without effect or appreciation from others.

Lots of English cannot pass the English test. Why not Arthur Li provide training to them and test again for a certain interval? Labelling them unqualified to teach is another pressure to them and without any benefit to our kids. Let them learn again or take some supplementary lessons from UK professor of Eng subject then they will improve themselves and their teaching ways. Who will benefit then? Our kids! The money will be spent more worthwhile.

The above is only my opinion. It is not limited to others which will be better than mine. That's why Arther Li's team should be working harder in strategic thinking as a whole, rather than just throwing money. We are taxpayers! We would like to see our money spent wisely!!!

ChiChiPaPa

lydia 寫道:
But if the 母 語 教 學 (Putongha, not Cantonese) can extend not only limited to the Chinese lesson, but also to all subjects in Chinese, then our Putongha level can be upgraded, which will sacrify our loss in English level.

這個意見很好。不過一些科目，如西史， 最好都係用英語教。和外國人交談，歷史、文化、新聞、運動和飲食都是很好的題目。數理化就很少用作日常交談。

uncleedward

ChiChiPaPa 寫道:
[quote]
uncleedward 寫道:


Dear ChiChiPaPa

I attach the relevant web page of School B for your checking. You may well have an educated guess on School A's name judging from my heated debate with some other parents elsewhere.

http://www.heungto.edu.hk/~saml/doc/2006/studies.pdf

香島中學係直資中學，用普通話教中文，有學生應考英語課程甲。Banding Percentage 冇公佈，但Band 3生升中，應該入唔到(有關係的、識人的學生就唔知)。如果它只有5成Band One，就可以和St Francis' Canossian College比，不過，真係唔知香島的Banding Percentage，但就有很多有公佈Banding Percentage的中文中學可以和St Francis'Canossian College比比。如果知道香島的Banding Percentage，就請分享，直資中學，好多人都想入。[/quote]

Heung To used to be a private secondary school. All private secondary schools, by default, have converted into DSS now.

The F1 banding of students can be deducted by the extremely high postive value added achieved by the school. As I said elsewhere, I suggested two band 3 girls to apply to Pui Kiu over the last 2 years, both got accepted.

These schools are much undervalued because of their political association.

uncleedward

ChiChiPaPa 寫道:

原來你認為教學語言的重要性很低，而要找到那家學校有gifted or able  ones才是最重要。去外國讀，完全沒有母語都唔係問題。可能Judy都係咁睇。

原來母語教學政策有助把gifted or able ones集中在小部份英文中學，所以你地咁支持。原來母語教學只是對D唔係able ones有用。早講。只要投資落學前和小學教育，到時，大部份係able ones，就不再需要現在的母語教學政策。照你講，依家大部份係中文中學，即係大部份都唔係able ones，咁香港重會有競爭力。

It is dangerous to push the arguments to the extremes. That the peer group and the school are important cannot be interpreted as meaning teaching medium being unimportant. Different factors carry different weights, period. A lot of students in mainland China also endeavour to go to Harvard or Yale. This does not mean Beijing, Tsinghua or Futan are lousy universities.  But mind you, although there are bilingual schools in Beijing, Shanghai or Taipei, the top secondary schools are still those schools with Chinese as teaching language, e.g. 清華附中、上海中學、建國高中. Theoretically, for the able students in Hong Kong, if we put them together in an environment similar to that of a first-tier EMI, they should turn out better.

EMIs in Hong Kong attract more able students. This is a fact. 平常心對待可以了. We all understand there were a lot of historical reasons behind this phenomenon. The government's 母 語 教 學 policy will gradually balance this. For example, schools like Pui Ching are getting more and more support from the parents.

About DSS, there is no written policy saying they can choose their teaching language for ever. Once the first 5 year review period is over, they will be subject to the same language policy if the government so chooses.

ChiChiPaPa

uncleedward 寫道:

The government's 母 語 教 學 policy will gradually balance this. For example, schools like Pui Ching are getting more and more support from the parents.

如果你說的是培僑書院，在BK都有不少父母為子女報名，這是因為她的雙教學語言(加外語學習)的教學政策:

"各科學習活動全部以英語或普通話進行。此外，每位學生均可選讀其他國際語言，發展語言天份。"

培僑書院是不用廣東話教學，而這正是我所說的理想教學語言環境。我絕不讚同中學用廣東話(母語)教學。

如果你說的是培正，我相信只要他轉用普通話教學，而放棄廣東話，就可以有更高的地位。

ChiChiPaPa

uncleedward 寫道:

I attach the relevant web page of School B for your checking. You may well have an educated guess on School A's name judging from my heated debate with some other parents elsewhere.

http://www.heungto.edu.hk/~saml/doc/2006/studies.pdf

Heung To used to be a private secondary school. All private secondary schools, by default, have converted into DSS now.

The F1 banding of students can be deducted by the extremely high postive value added achieved by the school. As I said elsewhere, I suggested two band 3 girls to apply to Pui Kiu over the last 2 years, both got accepted.

你究竟是說培僑書院、培僑中學，定係香島中學有Band 3生?

ChiChiPaPa

Y2KChild 寫道:
Dear uncleedward

To solve the current practical situation and problems, we should give free hands to the schools to use the types of language as well as to allow them to vary the portion of Chinese or English as medium or even use bilingual in teaching as they like of which most suit the specific situation of each school.

教學語言政策上，應容許學校決定教學語言，甚至一些學校可以用上海話或其他地方方言來作教學語言教授一些科目，使不同藉貫的人仕可以用自己的語言學習。歷史告訴我們，市場會決定甚麼是最好的。

讓大家各展所長，不要制造"英文中學-gifted ones or able ones"vs."中文中學-second class students"。

而我自己就喜歡普通話、英語雙語教學的學校。