母 語 教 學 是 罪 魁 禍 首 ?

precious

Yes, you are right.  Our mother tongue is Cantonese and is also what I meant for.  I use the word from Y2Kchild.   He did not allow me to say again to support "Chinese as teaching medium", but sorry that I couldn't.  

Discussion is always a positive way of learning.  It is also agreed that more discussions are happened in IS than traditional schools.  Anyway, before discussion, kids still have to gain knowledge and understand the subjects.  At home, we can try to discuss with our kids based on what they have learnt.

ChiChiPaPa 寫道:
Precious,

母語不是Chinese，是Cantonese。用普通話比用廣東話教中文更有效，因為普通話更接近書面語。如不同意請指正。

正如你quoted的文章所說，語言背後就是民族的文化，因此IS比中文學校有更多的課堂討論，就是因為文化的差異。

我有觀察自己的女兒上普通話、英語和其它以廣東話進行的課外活動。英語是她的第二語言，但她在上英語課的時候，明顯地有更多的討論，有更多的思考和有更多的情況向老師Say No。

我覺得應該讓學校自行決定教學語言。

我自己就喜歡以普通話和英語為主要教學語言的學校。

lydia

I think there are 2 sides parents here. I support Putonghua as teaching medium in schools. Because it can let our children hands to write for the mouths. It will be beneficial for learning, understanding, writing and speaking, etc.  

However, I also understand the opposite side why they are worried about the inability to communicate if the children are growing in the Chinese environment. It is because there will be less time for learning English, say their culture and vocabulary. Withour vocabulary or grammers, how they can do business with foreigners in an international company?

One is arguing on learning for growing a person's skills and knowledge, like the 5Qs: EQ, CQ, FQ etc.  while the other is focused on learning a language for communication which can help him to earn for living.

I know a friend who is a born & studied in China who only started studying English since Secondary school.
He was graduated from Beijing's Ching Hwa Unversity. His English's pronunciation and tone are exactly like a foreigner. He can have very clear in the grammer to use and its phonics/ pronunciation. I don't see he's lack of vocabulary in communciation. So, I really hope our Edu Dept people can open their eyes and minds to try obtaining other countries' successful cases as examples for reference.

judy

ChiChiPaPa,

你誤會我的意思了，我不會蠢到拿一家中文小學去和英文小學比，來證明母語教學的成效，因為任何统計，都應將背景資料一並計算，才合理。所以，將英中和中中比成績，比学生以後之專業，也是極不合理的。

對於学習，最好之量度方法是有没有進步，那一種令学生進步更大呢？不如放長双眼，看會考成績如何？用那種方法進步更大。

妳看，以上最好的三間中學都有自己的英文小學。

你又知唔知佢地自小點讀英文呢？我只能說，如果你一個月看幾本英文書，會考英文没有C是很少見的。

ChiChiPaPa 寫道:
Judy,

有些英文小學只是用英文General Studies課本。很少英文小學會要求學生在上非英文主科時用全英語對答。

用一間有84%Band One生的中文小學去和英文小學比，應該很容易證明母語教學的成效吧！

事實上，他們的英語學習能力及不上『真正』的英文小學。因此學校才在高年班加入英數，讓學生早日適應英語教學。之前，Chulaiah(一位BK member)說他的兒子曾在大拔就讀，是宣小的畢業生。大拔是以英語能力，而非總成績來編班。他兒子讀大拔時，A班大部份都是小拔的畢業生，一個宣小的畢業生都沒有。

以最好的中文中學培正來比，亦沒有說服力。在明報05/06升中攻略中，可以知道培正在2004年有32人在會考英文拿C級或以上。培正每年大約有240名會考生，所以英文優良率約有13.4%。這只比全港平均的10.4%好些，但就和知名的英文中學相距很遠:

瑪利諾修院學校(中學部) 90%
瑪利曼中學 86.90%
聖保祿學校 78%
嘉諾撒聖心書院 52.8%
寶血會上智英文書院 52%
德望中學 50.24%
張祝珊英文中學 49.20%
聖羅撒書院 41.70%
香港道教聯合會鄧顯紀念中學 34.70%
聖公會林護紀念中學 33.60%
聖公會林裘謀中學 33.00%
伊利沙伯中學 27%
華英中學 21.20%
何明華會督銀禧中學 14.30%

妳看，以上最好的三間中學都有自己的英文小學。

我選宣小，只因綜合各種因素，包括9成8進入英中(這比很多英文小學還高)，它是我最好的選擇。但我並非盲目地認為它各方面都是最好的。

[quote]
judy 寫道:

不是不許學生用英語學習，問題是：點解要用用英語来學習呢？

要英文好，是要学英語，不是用英語來學習。

我又問你一問題，令愛在一家中文小学上課，到中学，令愛那家学校出來之学生，完成中学後，英文會否比英文小学升上的差很多呢？

[/quote]

hkchina2000

Lydia,

一兩個成功的例子, 亦不能解除家長的疑慮.  那個清華大學的學生的確是個成功的例子, 但可能他有其他的成功因素, 例如資質或生活環境, 我卻見到很多國內名牌大學外語系畢業的大學生, 寫就幾好, 講就講英語的普通話, 難聽C人, 還有文化背景問題, d鬼佬都唔鍾意同佢地講野, 一見倒佢地, 就會變得好嚴肅認真, 講工事, 佢地走左之後就會同英語半桶水的我講賭波, 講跑車...  雖然講生意的時間5%都不到, 不過效果就好過d國內代表幾十倍.

基於機會只得一次的大前題下, 我一定要我的子女入英中 (英中唔收就另作別論).

lydia

hkchina2000,
You are right it really depends. But if they can start English in secondary but also successful, there should be some good aspects we can take as example. He told me he was not the best in Ching Hwa but only around the top level.

I think it's also the Studying environment. We also chatted on this topic and we have different purpose in studying. In HK, we have lots of media and resources to learn Eng compared with those in China. They know learning hard is the only way to improve life, while we have lots of area to spend time on, say Computer games, Watching TV, clubhouse, playground, kumon, ballat dancing, drawing, etc etc. Their after school is reading books. If rich, buy more different books to read. But if not rich enough, reading the few books more times for fully understanding. They know if they won't work hard on studying, their chance will be taken by some others.

judy

One is arguing on learning for growing a person's skills and knowledge, like the 5Qs: EQ, CQ, FQ etc. while the other is focused on learning a language for communication which can help him to earn for living.

不是的，我想家長很貪心，既想学到学科知識，又有一定之語文能力，語文能力越強，学科知識就越易掌撑，所以，為学好学科知識，選择能力較强之語文，是順理成章的。

相反犧牲学科知識，利用学学科知識之機會，來加强语文能力，是愚蠢的行為：1.学科知識之文字，並不是語文之典範，花了九牛ニ虎之力，所得到的可能是学科獨有之生字，將来大部分是不會再用的。2.用不熟悉之語文学学科知識，事倍功半。

用母語学習学科知識，多出來的時間，看多幾本優秀作品，效果更好。當然，如果英文能力好的，用英文来做為教学語言，也没有問題。但為了学好英文，而將英文做為教学語言，點都講唔通。

I support Putonghua as teaching medium in schools. Because it can let our children hands to write for the mouths.

寫文章，是寫出心想之東西，不是write for the mouths，人越有料，寫出來的越好。廣東話和普通話，真是看不出那種更好，我的看法是:我們為甚麽要語文教師，看書不就行了嗎？一個教師，能說出他所想所感，引道学生去领會，所以，那種語言，令他能更準确地表達他所想所感，那麽就用那種語言。

judy

2.用不熟悉之語文学学科知識，事倍功半
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According to your login, why not ask your  kid to learn all those subjects in Chinese because your kid will learn more and gain more knowledege and have better progress? Your kid may have even better achievement than his current state!

咩呢句"用不熟悉之語文学学科知識，事倍功半"有問題咩？每個人都有常識，如果我呢句話超出你的常識範圍，我都無辦法帮你，我估我不需要用孩子來証明我所講的是對还是錯吧，咁好cheap！！！

I think all parents would try to give the best to their kids. If you really support "母語教学", you should demonstrate your belief in action but not just "say it". Otherwise, there may be someone say that you of course support "母語教学" but only apply on other kids but not on your own kid so that other kids will be less competitive with yours.

咋天，我見完呢段嘢之後，己知大家無解傾啦！

Y2KChild 寫道:

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1.学科知識之文字，並不是語文之典範，花了九牛ニ虎之力，所得到的可能是学科獨有之生字，將来大部分是不會再用的
----------------------------------------------------

I don't think so. Most of the terminologies in other subjects, e.g geog, public affaris, economy, and even science, ... learnt in primary and secondary school are very common and useful in the daily life of such an international city like HK, as well as in communciation with foreign clients when at work, not to say for university study in HK or overseas.

Think about how hard a student will be if he/she doesn't know all those English terminologies when he/she is in university.   

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2.用不熟悉之語文学学科知識，事倍功半
---------------------------------------------------

According to your login, why not ask your  kid to learn all those subjects in Chinese because your kid will learn more and gain more knowledege and have better progress? Your kid may have even better achievement than his current state!

ykwong

Not fair to query choice of schools to one's own kids.
The best schools (sec) in HK are all being EMIs. So if the Ivy's adapt you, would you bother stay in HKU?

Same case in attacking Fanny Law and Arthur Li.

warrrren

Dear Judy and Y2KChild,

I cannot understand why you guys always take the other's views to the extremes - Judy never said that Chinese is so important that one should (quoting Y2KChild) "ask your kid to learn all those subjects in Chinese [so that your kid] will learn more and gain more knowledge and have better progress", and Y2KChild never said that one should (quoting July) "犧牲学科知識，利用学学科知識之機會，來加强语文能力".  I consider the importance of learning good English/Chinese and the relative effectiveness of using English or Chinese as a medium of instructions two separate issues.  The fact that one prefers English as a medium of instructions does not necessarily mean that Chinese is not important to him, and vice versa.  What is important is that the teachers and students get as much mileage out of the use of the chosen medium of instructions as possible.  This is something that we all can sit down and talk, can't we?  I always respect the view of the two of you, and hate to see you two get tied in names calling.

Regards,
warrrren

judy

warrrren,

是的，呢句"犧牲学科知識，利用学学科知識之機會，來加强语文能力"确有問題，其實，也不一定要用母語，如果英文能力好的，用英文来做為教学語言，也好。

近来少見你出現，你說得對，我較偏激，很多時想改但改不了，希望新年行花市時賣掉這一壞行為。


Judy

ChiChiPaPa

(delete)

ChiChiPaPa

warrrren 寫道:
This is something that we all can sit down and talk, can't we?

Regards,
warrrren

現時的教學語文政策下，在初中，學校、老師和學生都不能決定教學語言。我們在這兒談，都只是訴說一下不滿而已。

黃o禁o禁

Judy,
你講得一 d 都冇錯,你話「如果英文能力好的，用英文来做為教学語言」,甘 d 能力o係邊度o黎呢?咪又係師資o羅.

judy 寫道:
warrrren,

是的，呢句"犧牲学科知識，利用学学科知識之機會，來加强语文能力"确有問題，其實，也不一定要用母語，如果英文能力好的，用英文来做為教学語言，也好。

近来少見你出現，你說得對，我較偏激，很多時想改但改不了，希望新年行花市時賣掉這一壞行為。


Judy

lydia

Judy,

Of course you're right we have to speak or write anything with meanings (that's what you said from the heart). Maybe I cannot express myself very clear for the words " write for the mouths". What I mean is " 我手寫我口  " so that in our essay, there will not be any more "你做吔嘢呀！"  "出邊好熱。" "等陣先啦！" 什至 "快閃"，"早响啦你" 等等 白話的句語。

ChiChiPaPa

lydia 寫道:
Judy,

Of course you're right we have to speak or write anything with meanings (that's what you said from the heart). Maybe I cannot express myself very clear for the words " write for the mouths". What I mean is " 我手寫我口  " so that in our essay, there will not be any more "你做吔嘢呀！"  "出邊好熱。" "等陣先啦！" 什至 "快閃"，"早响啦你" 等等 白話的句語。

同意。

要雙語(普通話、英語)教學，不要廣東話教學。