Phonics v. Phonetics

LazyPapa

Alright. This seems the best part. I learn something here.

Thanks all of you.

Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary (Daniel Jones, 16th edition) and read the Introduction. It tells you a lot of things about how to interpret the IPA symbols that a normal dictionary won't tell you.

Rham

Rham 寫道:

Oxford Advanced Learner's doesn't tell you that.  Other normal dictionaries also don't tell you that but this is understood by native speakers.

I shouldn't say "understood by native speakers".  I should have said it is the way they say it.  In fact, for a vowel before a voiced consonant, it is not only longer, there is also often a tone change from high pitch to low pitch.

The IPA symbols shown in the dictionaries are in fact a simplified form of a more comprehensive set of IPA symbols.  For example, the pronunciation of "l" at the start of a word is different from when it is at the end of the word.  The former one is a "clear l" while the latter one is called "syllabic l".  In the more detailed system, there is a small dot (not exactly a dot, but don't know how to describe it) put under the "l".  These additional symbols are called Diacritics.

Another example is the "p" in speak and peak.  Though the dictionaries show the same "p" for both cases, they are in fact different.  The "p" in speak is non-aspirated while the second one is aspirated.  Try adding the "s" sound in front of the pronunciation of peak without modifying the "p" sound and you would find the pronunciation very awkward.  The "p" in speak is in fact closer to "b".

The same case for "t".  The "t" sound is different at different positions.

Besides, the IPA symbols don't tell you what happens when words are combined together in everyday conversations, such as assimilation and elision.  Try looking up the pronunciation of football.  Although the pronunciation shows a "t" for foot, it is in fact pronounced like "p" due to the influence of the "b".  This also happens when a word that ends with "t" is followed by a word starting with "b".

Why don't the dictionaries tell you all these?  Because these occur naturally to the native speakers during articulation.  You would be overwhelmed if they put all these in the IPA symbols of an ordinary dictionary.

I think phonics and phonetics are very different.  Knowing all the rules in phonics may get you 80% right in the pronunciations.  The other 20% are "irregularities".  Phonics are very useful in teaching kids how to read.  Phonetics are useful if you want a more complete understanding of how to pronounce the words.

For example, "receipt" is pronounced as [risi:t], not [risi:pt].  Learning phonics won't tell you that.

Disclaimer: I have never formally learned phonics and phonetics, I learned all these myself by reading books and paying attention to the pronunciations of native speakers.  Please feel free to correct me if I got anything wrong!

Diggiewong

jp,
please pm me the information.


thanks a lot

Dr.Cool

其實學習語言都是以聽、講為主,字母拼音跟國際音標都只是一種輔助工具而已。

chanhao

Rham,

Thank you for sharing with us your knowledge and experience. I searched wikipedia and found info about the rule of shortening vowels like BEEF in our example. It seems that IPA does not explicitly indicate that in the pronunciation. Is it right?

JP

Rham 寫道:
Oxford Advanced Learner's doesn't tell you that.  Other normal dictionaries also don't tell you that but this is understood by native speakers.

The IPA symbols shown in the dictionaries are in fact a simplified form of a more comprehensive set of IPA symbols.  For example, the pronunciation of "l" at the start of a word is different from when it is at the end of the word.  The former one is a "clear l" while the latter one is called "syllabic l".  In the more detailed system, there is a small dot (not exactly a dot, but don't know how to describe it) put under the "l".  These additional symbols are called Diacritics.

Another example is the "p" in speak and peak.  Though the dictionaries show the same "p" for both cases, they are in fact different.  The "p" in speak is non-aspirated while the second one is aspirated.  Try adding the "s" sound in front of the pronunciation of peak without modifying the "p" sound and you would find the pronunciation very awkward.  The "p" in speak is in fact closer to "b".

The same case for "t".  The "t" sound is different at different positions.

Besides, the IPA symbols don't tell you what happens when words are combined together in everyday conversations, such as assimilation and elision.  Try looking up the pronunciation of football.  Although the pronunciation shows a "t" for foot, it is in fact pronounced like "p" due to the influence of the "b".  This also happens when a word that ends with "t" is followed by a word starting with "b".

Why don't the dictionaries tell you all these?  Because these occur naturally to the native speakers during articulation.  You would be overwhelmed if they put all these in the IPA symbols of an ordinary dictionary.

I think phonics and phonetics are very different.  Knowing all the rules in phonics may get you 80% right in the pronunciations.  The other 20% are "irregularities".  Phonics are very useful in teaching kids how to read.  Phonetics are useful if you want a more complete understanding of how to pronounce the words.

For example, "receipt" is pronounced as [risi:t], not [risi:pt].  Learning phonics won't tell you that.

Disclaimer: I have never formally learned phonics and phonetics, I learned all these myself by reading books and paying attention to the pronunciations of native speakers.  Please feel free to correct me if I got anything wrong!

[/quote]

Rhan,

Mostly agree to your elaboration!

I remember when I learnt IPA many years ago, it's a rule that when "plosive consonants"--p,t,k are combined with"fricatives consonant"--S, p sound will change to b, t sound will change to d, and k sound will change to g. Apart from the example "speak" cited by you, we pronounce "still" as "sdil"; we pronounce "skip" as "sgip". Very interesting indeed! This rule is not shown in the dictionaries.  

heiheikeikei

What is Phonetics?  > Click here

or, try to read this  > > Click here

Rham

Dr.Cool 寫道:
其實學習語言都是以聽、講為主,字母拼音跟國際音標都只是一種輔助工具而已。

絶對讚成學習語言必須多聽多講。不過多聽多講只會加強聽和講的能力，和學習 phonics 或 phonetics 的目的不同。

美國人面對一個很嚴重的問題，他們人口中一個很大的比例連最基本的閱讀水平也達不到。他們以英語作母語，每天都多聽多講，但就是不懂閱讀。自從 Rudolph Flesch 的
Why Johnny Can't Read 出版以來，在美國引發了一場 phonics 和 whole-word approach 的爭論。現在 phonics 在美國也廣泛採用，但也會和其他方法混合使用，因為單靠 phonics 也是不行的。

Phonics 的重點是教小朋友閱讀，不是教小朋友準確發音。

Phonetics 對於以英語作第二語言的人來說是一個很重要的學習工具。原因有二：

一．缺乏英語環境，很多字未必有機會聽到 native speaker 怎樣發音。查字典的發音是一個沒辦法中的辦法。

二．糾正發音。香港人的英語帶著很重的廣東話口音。了解英語語音系統和廣東語的語音系統之異同對糾正發音十分重要。其實，native speakers 也會查字典的拼音，因為他們也有自己的鄉音。正如香港人很多的廣東話發音都不正確。

Rham

chanhao 寫道:
Rham,

Thank you for sharing with us your knowledge and experience. I searched wikipedia and found info about the rule of shortening vowels like BEEF in our example. It seems that IPA does not explicitly indicate that in the pronunciation. Is it right?

Right.  IPA does not explicitly state that.  The problem with a phonetic system is that the way people say the words changes over time, but the phonetic system may not change as fast.  Some Americans don't use the term long and short vowel any more, but refer them as lax and tense vowels.

Rham

JP 寫道:

Rhan,

Mostly agree to your elaboration!

I remember when I learnt IPA many years ago, it's a rule that when "plosive consonants"--p,t,k are combined with"fricatives consonant"--S, p sound will change to b, t sound will change to d, and k sound will change to g. Apart from the example "speak" cited by you, we pronounce "still" as "sdil"; we pronounce "skip" as "sgip". Very interesting indeed! This rule is not shown in the dictionaries.  

You are right, thanks for providing the very good summary.  However, "t" sound in "still" is not exactly "d".  It sounds like "d" in that it is non-aspirated, but it is still voiceless.  This point is VERY difficult for us to comprehend because of the influence of our Cantonese background.  I am still struggling with this.

In Cantonese, 聲母中的 b, m, etc are 清音, i.e. voiceless in IPA terms. b, m etc. in English is voiced. Hong Kong people tends to replace the voiced consonant with a voiceless one.  That's why a Hong Kong people saying "summer" is often different from a native speaker saying "summer".

Rham

heiheikeikei 寫道:
What is Phonetics?  > Click here

or, try to read this  > > Click here

heiheikeikei,

Thank you for the links.  They are very good references.  However, as I have said before, the purpose of learning phonics is to teach the kids to read while the purpose of learning phonetics is to improve the pronunciation.  I won't encourage other parents to enrol their kids to phonetic classes too early unless their kids already have very good reading and comprehension skills and a relatively strong analytic power.

ugly-duckling

Dear JP

Would you please PM the phonetic teacher information to me?  Thanks.

Ugly-duckling