經驗分享：如何令仔女讀好書

shadeslayer

國際音標第一個要學的就是 [i:]，在學會[i:]這個發音之後，老師是必定要列出所有發音為[i:]的字母組合，有如下所列：
i —— police     e —— me      ea —— sea          ee —— meet         ei —— receive       ey —— key     ie —— thief

學到輔音（也叫子音）音標 [θ], 學識這個發音之後，老師必定要講到[θ] 所對應的字母組合只有th，那麼當小朋友聽到[θ]這個發音，首先就知道要拼寫th.

好了，默寫的時候，老師讀了thief這個詞語，熟記國際音標的小朋友腦裏即刻就反應出[θ]—— th   [i:]——ie   [f]—— f ，那麼thief這個單詞就順理成章寫了出來。道理就是咁簡單，Phonics 和IPA又怎可以分離呢？

xxxxxxx

你說Phonics 和IPA又怎可以分離呢?  完全唔明，你上面說的是 IPA，何來 Phonics，如何「道理就是咁簡單」?  你根本沒解析過。

Phonics:

A -> Ah
B -> Bah

是字母和發音的轉換，如何和 IPA 的 IPA symbol 和發音的轉換拉上關係。 IPA symbols 和英文字母根本沒必然關係，你究境講咩呢？如何「道理就是咁簡單」?
你又說:

//無非國際音標是順向思維，從音標讀音聯想到字母組合，而phonics是逆向思維，見到字母組合就聯想到讀音，本就是同一回事//


你自己說過，一個音標有 n 個字母組合，看音標聯想到 n 咁多個字母組合有乜用？點書?  咁孩子聽左老師讀[i:]，他應該寫下 n 個字母組合的那一個呢？


Phonics 中只有英文字母及讀音，IPA 中只有 IPA symbols 及讀音，如何「本就是同一回事」？


如果是本就是同一回事，為甚麼 phonics class 不教 IPA symbols，而IPA class 又不教 A-> Ah, B-> Bah 嘵？

Darrenderek

"中文靠閱讀，英文靠背誦，數學靠操練"
This is a very good insight provided by joey126.  This is the key way of practice for each subject, but it is by no means the "only" way.  Reading is the key way to build the foundation for Chinese, but doing exercise can definitely help.  Memorizing all the phrasal verbs, sentence structures, etc. can help students to ace the exams in HK more easily, while it doesn't mean that students do not have to read.  it is all about the allocation of time on different activities, in view of the comparative advantage of each activity for each subject.  The main purpose is to get high score on the exams in HONG KONG.  yes, in HK.

As for IPA and phonics, of course they are 2 different ways to facilitate the pronounciation of words.  I know both of them and consider both helpful.  

Phonics - it allows us to pronounce many words just by taking a look at them.  Although there are in fact many exceptions, it is still worth studying it since as for as most common words that are used by primary students are concerned, phonics works.  It makes reading and dictation much easier.

IPA - by studying the table on the dictionary, we can learn it real quick.  There is no secret to that.  The best thing about it is that it enables us to pronounce each word correctly.  I therefore strongly recommend students to understand and memorize the IPA table.  

Phonics and IPA are not mutually exclusive.

joey126, Special thinks to you for your generous sharing here for all the parents on EK!  Please keep it up! you have our full support!

shadeslayer

原帖由 Darrenderek 於 12-12-20 發表
"中文靠閱讀，英文靠背誦，數學靠操練"
This is a very good insight provided by joey126.  This is the k ...

這十五字「真言」中，Joey 自己說英文不以閱讀為主是因為時間。

Joey或其他人，煩請解答我的問題：假設孩子有時間，英文是否也是和中文一樣，應以閱讀為主調？

Darrenderek

回復 shadeslayer 的帖子

In our case, reading English books is a must.  our practice is to keep reading books, even if just reading several pages a day.  making it a habit is the key.  but for scoring high on exam, memorizing good stuff can be a fruitful short cut.

shadeslayer

原帖由 Darrenderek 於 12-12-20 發表
回復 shadeslayer 的帖子

In our case, reading English books is a must.  our practice is to keep read ...

你係咪答我的問題呢？

我說：煩請解答我的問題：假設孩子有時間，英文是否也是和中文一樣，應以閱讀為主調？

Yes or no?

Ahbee02

回復 Darrenderek 的帖子

同意。正正是我所想的。
閱讀是必不可少的，但閱讀是一項長期的長遠的行為，它的效用需一定時間來反映。而背誦短期而有效的行為，至少能令孩子跟得上課程，考到較好成績。這樣才令孩子不會丟掉對英文的興趣或信心。

Darrenderek

回復 shadeslayer 的帖子

After digesting joey126's advice and moving along through trial and error, I am doing this with my son (roughly):

Chinese: 80% reading; 20% doing exercise
English: 30% reading; 70% doing exercise/memorizing
Math: 100% doing exercise

shadeslayer

我不評論個別孩子的做法，我很想知的是，Joey 自己說英文不以閱讀為主是因為時間不夠。 假設孩子有足夠時間，英文是否也是和中文一樣，應以閱讀為主調呢？ 例如中英文同時 80% 閱讀，20% 練習背誦？

Darrenderek

回復 shadeslayer 的帖子

Even if joey126 says "yes, 80%/20% for English", it just represents her own opinion.  I believe there is no model time allocation for all kids.  Every kid is different and he/she would have a different timetable.  Basic principle is there, but it has to be modified to suit your own special needs.

Jane1983

Joey的15字真言，中數10個字管用，我覺得已「超值」！

英文係工具，你吾閱讀，吾夠vocab吾夠exposure，英文吾會好。但係香港中小學生要考試得，短期見功，確有靠背拿A的人。

如果你追求真正英文好，吾係單純考試過關，咁吾閱讀係吾得！

shadeslayer

原帖由 Darrenderek 於 12-12-20 發表
回復 shadeslayer 的帖子

Even if joey126 says "yes, 80%/20% for English", it just represents her own ...

80/20 只是例子

我是問如果孩子有足夠時間，英文是否也是和中文一樣，應以閱讀為主調呢？我不是說個別孩子不用看自身情況而調節，只是說主調是否變成英文閱讀？

Joey 的十五字真言正是說中文的主調是閱讀，英文背誦，數學操練。為何我問問題的時候忽然要看個別孩子，不能談主調呢？

再問，如果孩子有足夠時間，英文是否也是和中文一樣，應以閱讀為主調呢？我不是說個別孩子不用看自身情況而調節，只是說主調是否變成英文閱讀？

Darrenderek

回復 shadeslayer 的帖子

If there is no constraint, there is no point to make time allocation.  or I would say we can simply do 100% reading all the time until the kid absorbs everything.
What joey126 talks about is how to make use of limited resources to achieve the highest results.  If Joey126's advice still holds true, doing more memorizing than reading should achieve higher scores on exam more easily than doing more reading.
You can choose to do 80% reading/20% memorizing if you think you have plenty of time to spend.  But making use of the same amount of time you have, if I do 20% reading/80% memorizing, based on Joey126's advice, I should be able to achieve more on exam under HK's mainstream system.
Joey126, pls feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.  This is how I interpret your comments.

shadeslayer

原帖由 Darrenderek 於 12-12-20 發表
回復 shadeslayer 的帖子

If there is no constraint, there is no point to make time allocation.  or I ...

I didn't say no constraints. I said if the child has sufficient time.  I have asked Joey what is sufficient time for the reading  approach, but there was no response.

You seem to be saying "yes" parents should use the reading approach if there is sufficient time.  Thank you.

shadeslayer

原帖由 Darrenderek 於 12-12-20 發表
回復 shadeslayer 的帖子

If there is no constraint, there is no point to make time allocation.  or I ...

If Joey126's advice still holds true, doing more memorizing than reading should achieve higher scores on exam more easily than doing more reading

Xxxxxx

Why do you say doing more memorizing than reading is going to achieve better exam results? Any reasons or just guts feeling.   Why, in Chinese, reading a lot has optimal exam results but in English memorizing instead of reading gives the best exam results?

My experience is different.  If children develop the love of reading before they get in to Primary school, they don't need memorizing or a lot of exercises to get good exam grades. All children I know who reads a lot and who achieve good exam results do not use memorizing or
a lot of exercises.

Darrenderek

回復 shadeslayer 的帖子

Obviously you still didn't get my point.  But that's fine.

Darrenderek

回復 shadeslayer 的帖子

Now I get it.  You don't agree with joey126 and are trying to challenge her statement.

Well, if you pay close attention to my response, I highlighted one condition: her suggestion suits the exam requirement under HK's mainstream system.  Usually Eng exam focuses a lot on grammar, sentence structure, spelling, etc. Memorizing useful stuff can be of great use in this context.  As mentioned in my previous messages, I never undermine the importance of reading.  However, if the focus is to get higher score on this kind of exam in a more "efficient" way, joey126's suggestion in my opinion is valid.

If I don't require my son to ace the exam, why would I care if he memorizes anything or not? just tell him to enjoy his reading and I trust he will still be good in Eng anyway.   

wsk7777

若要人似我，除非倆個我！
Is it really necessary to make your sharing as a definit rule?  Our sharing here is used as a reference, each individual kid has different character or resource, parents need to find out their kid's preference. If not, I have to say sorry to your kid, because he seldomly has his own choice to do whatever he wants, he has to do whatever you think he should do. After several years, would you choose a girlfriend for him? One day he may become the best English professor, somehow he may miss out a lot of alternative as well!
只有做家長的才清楚知道自己孩子的需要，從分享中採用那些適合自己孩子的方法。察覺大家都在欣賞樓主的教孩子心得，就算你認為你的理論和方法是多麼的優秀，何必一定要踏上別人去將自己台高。你有好嘢咪攤出來比大家分享，看看有無人讚？
之不過，我真的要讚你！其實你是否在不知不覺中分享辯論比賽的心得？
大家請見諒！實在是有感而發！

shadeslayer

You missed my point.  I am saying extensive reading "IS" an efficient way to learn good English and "HENCE" good grades in exam will follow.  Phonics and leisure reading are the key ingredient to good English including grammar and spelling, composition, reading comprehension, etc.

Phonics plus reading is a painless and fun way to learn English, the essence is "self-learn" and learn through fun reading.  Throughout the primary years, the only thing I normally do has been to choose and buy good books for her.  I used the money other parents spend for tuition and exercises to buy books and I have plenty of changes and much better results, both English general capability and exam results.  My girl is not unique, the many cases around me support this assertion.

My girl is a normal child, your children can do it too, or better.  Don't waste money on tuition, memorizing, and drilling.  These things actually "decrease" the children's interest in English.  Leisure reading on the other hand increase children's interest in English.

Jane1983

wsk7777 發表於 12-12-20 23:07
若要人似我，除非倆個我！
Is it really necessary to make your sharing as a definit rule?  Our sharing ...

同意！老實講，佢一句：「你係咪答梗我問題，yes or no？」，我真係心中一凜，想起以前做bank個死鬼老板。


呢度係分享，無人受薪，無人owe任何人一個答案！

shadeslayer

wsk7777

Joey 的十五字真言正是說中文的主調是閱讀，英文背誦，數學操練。為何我問問題的時候忽然要看個別孩子，不能談主調呢？

再問，如果孩子有足夠時間，英文是否也是和中文一樣，應以閱讀為主調呢？我不是說個別孩子不用看自身情況而調節，只是說主調是否變成英文閱讀？