Chinese standard of IS students

ckkshek

Excuse me for raising this old question but it is my only hesitation on IS.

I understand that in IS, my kid needs to attend Chinese lessons outside school and his Chinese can never compare to local students. But how "bad" his Chinese would be? Can he write long essay? Can he read a fiction or journal? Can he speak fluent Putonghua? In short, will he lose competitive edge if China's going to be a major economic and financial centre?

As a local student, I have no idea what level of Chinese standard an IS student usually attains. Experience parents please share.

Many thanks!

oooray

原帖由 ckkshek 於 09-9-24 11:46 發表
Excuse me for raising this old question but it is my only hesitation on IS.

I understand that in IS, my kid needs to attend Chinese lessons outside school and his Chinese can never compare to local s ...

Sorry for interrupting your questions. I have an idea by changing "IS" to "Local", "Chinese/PUtonghua" to "English"...
then your message wiil become:

I understand that in Local School, my kid needs to attend English lessons outsideschool and his English can never compare to IS students. But how"bad" his Engliish would be? Can he write long essay? Can he read afiction or journal? Can he speak fluent Engliish? In short, will helose competitive edge if China's going to be a major economic andfinancial centre?

As a IS student, I have no idea what level of  Engliish standard an localstudent usually attains. Experience parents please share.

Sorry for not giving you an answer. But it seems worthy to look from the other side of the mirror before making any decisions.

papa_pop

I also apologise for sidetracking.  Thanks oooray for giving a new perspective. But I tend to disagree to your analogy, given the education environment in HK.

My argument is based on the premise that the emphasis and effort a local school puts in teaching English should be far more than that an IS puts in teaching Chinese.  Moreover, a student in a respectable IS can possibly 'avoid' using and learning Chinese whilst a student in a decent local school cannot possibly avoid English - as it remains sort of 'compulsory' for the local curriculum.

One will not be too surprised to see a local school kid enjoying an English fiction during an MTR ride but it's really rare to see an IS student devouring a Chinese novel.

I'm not saying that IS students cannot be good at Chinese and definitely not vice versa.  Here I focus on reading and writing only, as we know quite a number of IS students are local Chinese and they are raised in a Cantonese-speaking home.

WYmom

There have been many many similar topics discussed before; back to basic, in real IS, Chinese is learnt as a second language, just like Spanish, French, Japanese ...  It is a wrong expectation for local Chinese parents to expect a lot resources put into Chinese teaching.  

If you want high standard in Chinese, you can choose those "IS" or schools using IS-like curriculum catered more for local Chinese students, such as Yew Chung, ISF.  So more Chinese, less English, it is always a trade-off.

I believe, needless to say, developing interest to learn Chinese in long term is more the parents' job for local Chinese kids studying in IS.  My kids have no problem in reading and writing Chinese at levels similar to their counterparts; it is just not Kumon can do the job, no matter kids are studying in local or international schools.

oooray

原帖由 papa_pop 於 09-9-24 13:58 發表
I also apologise for sidetracking.  Thanks oooray for giving a new perspective. But I tend to disagree to your analogy, given the education environment in HK.

My argument is based on the premise that ...

Thanks for your input. I agree my analogy is really "rough" & non-scientific. It is just for fun but so far it is not contradicting.
Thousands families will have thousands stories of success (or failure) and there will never have an absolute answer.
I personally agree with WYmom.

mattsmum

i have a third question: what sort of chinese level do you expect? hk chinese? mainland chinese?taiwan chinese? singapore chinese?


look at exam for chinese-
mainland gao kao,
hk a level,
taiwan ling kao,
singapore a level,
......

ckkshek

Though I have learnt and used English for 30+ years, I don't think I can work flawlessly in an English speaking country. Vice versa, I wonder if IS graduates would face similar difficulties when finding jobs. And personally, I think Chinese is more difficult to learn as a second language, let alone the less resources IS put to teach Chinese as papa_pop has mentioned.

Of course individual effort would make big difference. I'm talking about a general trend/situation.

The worst scenario I anticipate after 20 years: while most firm in the world do business in or with the PRC, they need to recruit those who have good command of Chinese. And most employers would not prefer IS graduates as their Chinese standards are usually lower. (but how low would it be? that's the question I asked here)

Somehow I'm just speculating things decades later... or am I worrying too much?!

oooray

原帖由 ckkshek 於 09-9-25 01:29 發表
Though I have learnt and used English for 30+ years, I don't think I can work flawlessly in an English speaking country. Vice versa, I wonder if IS graduates would face similar difficulties when findi ...

I guess even after 20 years, Chinese, or specifically Putonghua is a must to succeed (or survive) [personally, i don't thinks so] , I do not foresee the local education system can do any enhancement to survive.
In fact, after being tortured in local education system in the days of being a British Colony, and seeing children been tortured by EB after 1997, I will not anticipate anything the Hong Kong Education System can give my children. Of course, many parents are willing to share you how their children succeed in enhancing their language abilities while studying in local schools. I will conclude their most of their success are merely contributed to their parents' effort and also their own talent, not the schools themselves.

almom

If you are merely talking about a language skill, this can be handled by additional extra classes and home support. However, please remember that a lot of local school students are also failing Chinese. So it is hard to say WHAT way of learning Chinese is best.

I think we need to understand that education is never the learning of language(s). We are talking about the way children are inspired to learn and how to make them love to learn.

Who knows what is going to happen in 20 years time? And I do not think employers would only look for good Chinese. Are there other skills that are as or even more important?

If you are talking about good Chinese, Hong Kongers would never be better than people in China or Taiwan. In China only, they have millions of people with much better Chinese than we do. What WE can contribute is something else they do not have (yet): brains, minds, mentalities. I am not saying we are smarter. But Hong Kong people, in general, think differently because we are not limited by the typical Chinese Communist mindset or the typical traditional Chinese cultural mindset.

And IS students are again different from local school students because IS students are used to thinking yet differently too. This is a complicated issue that involves not only the curriculum but also the cultural and political immersion.

Further the educational model in international schools provide a lot of space for children to think and develop. Honestly, IS students might not turn out to be really that good at English as a language. But they are always given chances to develop in almost all areas, including arts and sports.

No one would disgree with you if you say that IS students do not have Chinese skills as good. But how good do we NEED? And how much of the skills we are willing to sacrifice for international school education? International school education is, in my views, better. (I am sure many people would disagree, but this is my personal views.) Yet I also understand that my children will be less exposed to Chinese culture and Chinese literature. I would be happy if I can have both worlds but I am willing to take less in one of the sides. My children will not be studying as much Chinese history and they will probably never be able to read the book Three Kingdoms. But I am happy with what I get so far.

iamfine

Seems that Chinese is a sensitive  topic among some IS parents and touches a raw nerve - people either jumps on whoever dares to raise the issue or try to avoid real discussions (by changing the question and substituting "English" for "Chinese" for instance).

The question is simply enough - "what level of Chinese standard an IS student usually attains?" Parents with children in secondary (I am among them) can tell you, don't expect too much. Maybe 1 out of 10 can get say a D or even a C in HKCEE but don't expect too much.  I have two children, one is a graduate from a ESF school and the other is a secondary student in another IS.  My experience, which is fairly typical, is that you can make kids attend additional Chinese classes when they are young. But once they reach teenage, you are asking for trouble if you want them to learn a little more Chinese outside the school's curriculum.  The end result is - not much Chinese among IS graduates.  You may or may not find the Chinese in IS adequate.  It is personal to you.  Some parents are happy as long as their children can speak some Chinese, as some parents are overjoyed if their children can finish Harry Porter before they reach 9 or 10.  Some parents and their children need English-biased schools, and some other need Chinese-biased ones.  I don't want to enter into another local vs international schools debate as the original question is about the Chinese standard of IS. It would be contemptuous of the original poster to assume that he or she is not fully aware of the differences between IS and local schools.  When it comes to Chinese,  be prepared to make some compromise if you let your child go to an IS.  My two cents.

[ 本帖最後由 iamfine 於 09-9-25 17:37 編輯 ]

nintendo

You are asking questions that will not have a single answer for everyone. There are all types of students. Some are good at Chinese. Some are good at Math. Some are good at Science. Even within the same school, the same class, you can find student with different qualities. So how can anyone draw one single conclusion of "how good (or bad) an IS student can be in terms of chinese".

I do not mind trying to answer your questions though.

But how "bad" his Chinese would be? Can he write long essay? <=== How "good" do you expect? Can be quite bad. Some students can hardly speak in a complete sentense and stays in "beginner" lever forever. Some are really good. In fact some western kids probably have so much better Putonghua skills than me.

Can he read a fiction or journal? <=== What fiction? What Journal? My children can kind of understand Chinese newspaper but note that you do not need to know every word in a writing when you are only reading for the content. Fictions or stories..... neh.

Can he speak fluent Putonghua? <=== My children can speak Putonghua. They can take part in a Putonghua conversation. But I would not exactly say they are fluent.

In short, will he lose competitive edge if China's going to be a major economic and financial centre? <=== Do not think so. Someone said so already. Employers do not hire someone simply because he speaks good Putonghua. Put yourself in an employers shoes and think of what you think they would be looking for.

As a local student, I have no idea what level of Chinese standard an IS student usually attains. Experience parents please share. <=== You would probably see the level of "chinese as a second language". Just like the English of local schools. Local Hong Kongers can read, write and speak in English but are rarely fluent like native. So probably similar thing for IS students. They probably can read, write and speak Chinese. But they would never be as fluent like native.

mattsmum

i think everyone understand and read chinese here,

read this yourself then you would know the difference in igcse chinese(first langruage) and chinese (2nd langruage):

http://www.cie.org.uk/qualificat ... bject?assdef_id=842

http://www.cie.org.uk/qualificat ... bject?assdef_id=843

the second one is very simple, but I can't tell if every IS student can achieve the first one or the second one, i think it also depends on family/school too.

oooray

原帖由 iamfine 於 09-9-25 17:19 發表
Seems that Chinese is a sensitive  topic among some IS parents and touches a raw nerve - people either jumps on whoever dares to raise the issue or try to avoid real discussions (by changing the quest ...

Just clarify i'm not avoiding discussions by changing this to that.
My attitude is simple : I've "written-off" my expectations of Chinese level of my children. I anticipate they will have lower than average Chinese standard. Every single improvement are "bonus" of mine.

mattsmum

在深圳福田區裡有一座不太高的大廈，但裡面卻活著一個巨人。它的身體裡擺放著各色各樣的圖書、漫畫、DVD、VCD，甚至連中國畫、書法、陶瓷作品都一應俱全。

它把這些東西分類之後劃為三個區域：圖書區、手工藝區、影音區，它們各佔一層的地方。

首層是圖書區，除了有不同種類的圖書之外，還有很多不同語言的書，日文、英文、法文、意大利文、俄文、德文……讓人不勝枚舉。

第二層是影音區，裡面有既有中國內地及香港製作的影視作品，也有來自世界不同地方的電影，不同內容的DVD、VCD、CD……總之你想得到它都有供應！

第三層就是手工藝區了，有許多陶瓷、中國畫和一些手工藝品供銷售，琳琅滿目，美不勝收。

如果走累了，第四層附設餐廳，菜式包羅萬有，有中、英、日、意等地佳餚任君選擇。到這裡的交通也非常方便，只要在落馬洲或羅湖乘坐深圳地鐵，不用十五分鐘就會到達，這裡，就是書城。希望你們都能抽時間到此一遊，可能逗留一整天你也不願走哩。


an ESF yr 8 student's work:http://www.takungpao.com/news/09/09/17/HY-1143357.htm
don't know how he learn his chinese.

good work.

mattsmum

公仔麵是我的救星。它會在我最飢餓的時候拯救我；在我沒有早餐吃的時候幫助我；在我最鬱悶的時候帶給我光明。我這輩子也不能回饋我欠它的。它就是我的神！

香港人的「公仔麵」就是即食麵。只需要十分鐘就可以大快朵頤了。

公仔麵的煮法很簡單：首先，燒開一小鍋滾熱的水，放進麵餅；約一分鐘後，本來硬硬的麵餅會分開成一條條嫩滑的麵條；三分鐘後熄火，放入調味粉，用筷子攪一攪。只要簡簡單單四個程序，便可以弄出一碗色香味俱全的即食麵。

其實這只不過是吃公仔麵的其中一種方法。現代人對公仔麵的研究，使人類發明了許多不同的方式去享用公仔麵，如果不喜歡吃湯麵，可以吃炒的，可以加雞蛋、加唐生菜，加午餐肉，加一點點辣醬，嘩，簡直是完美無瑕，滋味無窮啊！

公仔麵是我的生命裡不能缺少的東西。雖然有說多吃即食麵不健康，但是，我還是要吃。相信很多香港人的想法也跟我一樣吧！
ESF yr 9.http://www.takungpao.com/news/09/09/21/HY-1145242.htm

ckkshek

sincerely thank all your input and detail answers, which enhance my understanding and give me some insights.
Though I think Chinese is difficult to learn, working level of Chinese which emphasizes on writing and reading should be comparatively easier to grasp.

And with Cantonese as mother tongue, shouldn't be too worried globally.  Hopefully we still have advantage...

Chole

I guess there is always a trade-off (of course I hope my kids can be good at both but the reality is.......)

Just to share my experience that some gweilo heads may not favour good English speaking Chinese because they can always second people from their home town.  To them good English is not a competitive edge at all!
Many international organisations are now looking for Chinese staff who can "connect to" and really "communicate' with the mainlanders.  

On the other hand, my friend (educated in HK) is now working in a big corp in the mainland as a department head.  Her boss expects her to present all reports in English.  He says that's what the company wants from her - good English.  

So, better be good at either one at least!