IS (ie ESF) or local DSS (ie DBSPD/ St. Paul's Co-ed)

Adrimom

Dear all,

Hi all, I saw some of the threads discussed here talking about the differences between international schools and typical local school (i.e. better English in IS, duck feed teaching approach in local schools etc).  I wish to draw a more 'apple to apple' comparison here - IS vs local direct subsidies schools, as they are closer in terms of school fee, and teaching approach (I suppose most directly subsidies schools nowadays no longer use the very 'duck feed' teaching approach and they also try to provide more resources and exposure to students).  How would you compare these two streams?  Ideally speaking, if your kid is accepted by all the above schools, which one would you choose?

The reason why I'm asking is, my son got accepted by a popular local kindergarten and he will be in K1 in Sept.  I am still considering which stream to put him to for primary.  Some people told me to try local first, coz if you are not happy with local, you can always switch to international, but definitely not vise versa.  How true is that?  I heard that ESF schools are also highly competitive.  How high a chance can one get into ESF primary if he studies in local kindy?  Can anyone shed some light?

Thanks so much!

oooray

[quote]原帖由 Adrimom 於 09-3-30 16:22 發表
"(I suppose most directly subsidies schools nowadays no longer use thevery 'duck feed' teaching approach and they also try to provide moreresources and exposure to students)".

I don't agree with this point...as long as the students in those schools are attending local public exam., the school will be training them in more or less the similar way to achieve better exam. result ; then have "higher ranking" amongst schools and then attract more "customers"

jjd

Local DSS is nowhere close to IS as regards the teaching approach.  DBSPD and St. Pauls' Co-ed kids are still being duck fed and are still exposed to the same kind of pressure from exams, tests and dictation as early as in primary 1.

Yes, they say they "encourage" reading but the reality is, the kids just don't have spare time to read.  If they finish their homework and perhaps even finish studying for dictations, they need to use their very precious time to practise musical instruments or being coached in various sporting activities so as to achieve awards for the school.  Parents also like to compare the number of awards their children obtain through different competitions/speech festivals/music festivals of the like.  Parents of DSS (famous ones) and IS are totally different species!

[ 本帖最後由 jjd 於 09-3-30 18:25 編輯 ]

leegbd

I reckon that IS and local DSS are running totally different streams and it is hard and unfair to compare together. Even some DSS schools try not to be  very "duck feed", it is difficult in somehow as competition  between 1st rank schools are very high.

I believe every parent has their own reasons in deciding to choose a IS or DSS. These years, many IS are very competitive to get in, they are not a second backup when you find you are not happy with a local school.

Adrimom

So does that mean one has to stick with local/ IS once the decision is made as it's really hard to switch to a different stream later on?  It's a really tough decision to make though

popolung

原帖由 Adrimom 於 09-3-31 10:20 發表
So does that mean one has to stick with local/ IS once the decision is made as it's really hard to switch to a different stream later on?  It's a really tough decision to make though

Yes, because

1. To switch your kid need to have either native Chinese or Native English, which is not easy to achiveve

2. The one who suffer will be your kid. Don't think your kid is a guinea pig.....

almom

原帖由 Adrimom 於 09-3-31 10:20 發表
So does that mean one has to stick with local/ IS once the decision is made as it's really hard to switch to a different stream later on?  It's a really tough decision to make though

Not exactly tough.
There must be qualities you expect from a school that you would never want to compromise.
Make a list of what you expect from a school.
Then arrange them in your order of preference.
Qualities may be, say, fees of the school, distance of travelling from home, national background, religion, language of instructions, curriculum, etc.....
Then search and shortlist a few schools (local or international) and compare them to your list.
There are probably no schools that can fulfil all your needs. But there must be one that is closest to what you want.
Then go for it and forget about whether it is "classified" local or international.
Make sense?

Adrimom

Makes a lot of sense...
My wish list: I wish my son to achieve native level of English, without compromising his knowledge in Chinese (written/ spoken).  I want him study in a happy, flexible and not-too-stressful environment, but with good discipline.  As for curriculum, I haven't really done a lot of research yet as my son hasn't even started kindergarten...would welcome some more advice on this.  School fee is of course an issue.  We can at most afford DSS school fees or ESF, but not IS like GSIS or alike.  So it's basically DSS or ESF I have in mind for now.  

Hubby doesn't feel very comfortable if son turns into a guai jai and talks only English to us.  To me this isn't too much of a concern though.

I didn't really start considering IS until quite recently, otherwise I would have also applied ESF kindy instead of just local kindy.  Anyone could give me some advice on what options I can consider?

Mighty

My input is:
(1) your son will never turn into gweizai just because he is studying in IS.  Dont forget here is Hong Kong and the culture is still chinese.  Even if you want him to turn into a gweizai, no way hosay.
(2) I think 90% of the IS students go to Chinese classes after school, be it PTH or Cantonese.   So that will compensate on the chinese side.
(3) One of my friends, husband : local Hong Kong (educated overseas), wife : PTH native speaker.  Their son uses English and PTH respectively with them and his level is native at both languages.
If money is not an issue, I am sure students going IS are far more happier than those in local schools.

Adrimom

So since my son is accepted by a local kindergarten, how high a chance will he be accepted by an international school for primary? (we speak to him in Cantonese and English at home.  He understands both but he's definitely better in Cantonese when expressing himself and all that)  Anyone got similar experience?  Or do I really need to put him in a local for the morning and an int'l for the afternoon?  But that is way too tough for him at this age.  

I saw some members discussing about Renaissance College.  Is it supposed to be more balance btwn Eng and Chi lanaguage exposure?  How is it different from other ESF schools?  I am totally new to IS so would be happy if someone can give me more ideas.  Thanks!

oooray

原帖由 Adrimom 於 09-3-31 15:41 發表
So since my son is accepted by a local kindergarten, how high a chance will he be accepted by an international school for primary? (we speak to him in Cantonese and English at home.  He understands bo ...

i guess you go through more threads in this forum. There are lots of good/bad; subjective/objective comments.
Then u can specify your questions and ask/discuss again. I am sure that parents here are very helpful

Adrimom

Thanks oooray ;)  I'm trying to go through more threads right now.  Information overload   I'm digesting bit by bit...

popolung

I see some interesting points here. Some parents will like their kids to be in ESF Primary, but not for ESF kinders (except you are too far away) or even don't want to be in IS kinder until primary. I can't read your mind and don't know your theory behind. But as of what we face in K2 now, if you are not in ESF Kinders (especially you are Cat 2) and you want your kids to be in ESF primary schools, take your own risk and good luck.

ESF Kinder is not the best IS kinder in town, but if you want to be in ESF Primary, please read the game manual carefully. I went via most of the ESF website, including the kinder and primary one. There are many hints in these website, just you need to dig it out and try to follow.

X-Mum

yes, popolung is right...  

you want to have native english level while you do not want to give up chinese.   how can you do that...  kid is having 'capacity', no matter how clever gifted child, language is something not just to learn but to use.  the less you use, the poor is the level.  so you want native level english, then you son will be 'banana', only yellow skin with white mind...  some white man can speak good chinese as only 2nd lauguage, but do you want chinese to be your son's 2nd lauguage...  in l.a., there are lots of 'banana'.  if you do not mind that should be okay.  i think there is not pin with 2 sharp ends.  you should take your side shortly.  IS is no 2nd choice anymore.  it getting more and more competitive, and not really less than the 1st level local schools.

almom

I saw some members discussing about Renaissance College.  Is it supposed to be more balance btwn Eng and Chi lanaguage exposure?

Let me ask you one question. What do you expect from your child regarding Chinese?

There are Chinese classes at RC but what I feel is that Chinese at RC is still merely a second language. And because of the background of the students, it is really hard for the school to move forward with their Chinese program.

RC has a very mixed culture. I do not want to argue further with those who insist that RC have mainly local Chinese students. But this is my second year with RC and what I see is that RC indeed have mainly non-local students. When I said non-local, I meant (1) non-Chinese students (eg. western kids, and asian kids from japan or korea, etc) and (2) non-Chinese speaking ethnic Chinese kids (like my children).

If we are talking about the fact that more than half of the students in each class are with such background, it would be very hard if not impossible for the school to think of ways to push the Chinese standard to a higher level. My kids are already the better ones, bearing in mind that their Chinese is only non-native level. There are so many other kids do not write or even speak any Chinese at all, and they seem to be in the beginner class forever.

We have the so-called more advanced classes, and they are actually using local text book. But what I heard is that what they teach is very shallow. Children are expected to know the meaning of the words and how to write the words. But that's mostly it. They do not exactly go far into literacy and language skills.

The way I see is that the school did have the intention to build RC into a school with stronger Chinese.  However, because of the limitation in time and resources, and the mixture of students (ie, there are just too many students with Chinese as a second language), it is quite impossible for RC to develop into the school with stronger Chinese than we have now.

Having said that, I do not believe this would be a big problem because seldom do we really need really high level of Chinese skills in real daily life.

Also, if you are a local Chinese family, then I am sure your kid's Chinese should be better than my kids. But of course, I know that some parents are expecting Chinese comparable or nearly comparable to local schools. I remember one parent even said that she expected her kid to write something as good as an average columnist in a Chinese newspaper. Then I suggest that they do not choose RC. RC's Chinese program would never be able to be that strong.

However, if you expect your kid to be able to write simple stories, to be able to read Chinese newspaper headlines, etc, then I believe many RC secondary kids can do that. In fact, my kids are now able to pick up bits from Apple Daily and have no huge problem with ordering food at a Chinese restaurant. I also know that quite some western kids in the RC secondary are able to speak, read and write a lot of Chinese.

So it comes back to the same question. What do you expect from your child?

[ 本帖最後由 almom 於 09-4-1 12:51 編輯 ]

Adrimom

Thanks Almon for your information about RC.  You have raised the right question.  I need to ask myself what I expect my child to achieve from school.  This is a question I have been asking myself over and over, and honestly I still haven't got a definite answer.  That's why I want to get more viewpoints from different parents, esp from those who have kids studying in international schools.  Hubby and I had no experience studying in IS, but both of us came from the so-called elite local schools in town.  We think it's ok if our son follow our footsteps, but we also want to understand more about some other options we can have/ afford to have.  Totally agree with all the above postings regarding the language focus.  I know we can't have both... it's still a huge dilemma.

popolung

原帖由 Adrimom 於 09-4-1 14:30 發表
Thanks Almon for your information about RC.  You have raised the right question.  I need to ask myself what I expect my child to achieve from school.  This is a question I have been asking myself over ...

Try take this approach, since both parents are from local elite school, so you knows what's going on there. Prepared to spend effort with your kids in the next 10+ years. You will be rewarded. Competition is keen though.

If you want your kid and the family to live happily in the next 10+ years, take IS.

I guess in good local school kid can speak good english, but in IS kid are speaking native Eng.

While in IS, prepared to help your kid by yourselves in Chinese. I guess if you are Chinese parents it should be much easier (I didn't mean good chinese is easy) for you to teach Chinese for use in daily life. If not enough then take you kid to have private tutor for this. But at least there is no pressure if your kid can't achieve certain standard at certain time limit. Most impotantly is to create something that he likes to study.

Hope this help.

kcpapa

Pls kindly try to visit the website of IB.  Then we will know the trend of lauguage.  This is just my prediction... no proof.  Do not take this too serious as I see some parents are quite too serious lately.  Calm down and BK is just a place for parent 'blowing water',  you know just water.  If you feel good, take it, if not sing-a-song.   

From the program, students are required to have at least 2 languages in higher level.  If English is the 1st language, may be Chinese or French will be the 2nd language.   In the case of Hong Kong, I do believe most of the students - not only Local (including Banana Chinese) and most of the Asian would take Chinese rather than French.

So no matter RC (PIC) or ESF school, they should have a very serious program to filful the standard of IB in the 2nd language.  In the past, ESF is running under GCSE syllabus, so Chinese is not important at all.  RC is having better program in Chinese as they are have to pass the IB standard, so they should have a better Chinese level.  

Now, ESF schools are going to IB, after the last class of IGCSE students leave the school, all ESF will be IB school  (if wrong, pls let me know, I am not sure if South Island school and KGV will also go IB).  So the level of Chinese should be re-design and more emphasis should be put.  

So I think no matter PIC or ESF, the Chinese level will be improved.  While our local elite school in fact is a Chinese based school.  They are having lesson in English, but English still is not the 1st language of the student, no matter how high is the level.  If we concentrate only on Language, and we are giving English a piority, then still IS would be our choice.

almom

原帖由 kcpapa 於 09-4-5 18:31 發表
Pls kindly try to visit the website of IB.  Then we will know the trend of lauguage.  This is just my prediction... no proof.  Do not take this too serious as I see some parents are quite too serious lately.  Calm down and BK is just a place for parent 'blowing water',  you know just water.  If you feel good, take it, if not sing-a-song.  

You are absolutely right.
But there are things that I insist I take it seriously, especially about factual information.
Agree?

So no matter RC (PIC) or ESF school, they should have a very serious program to filful the standard of IB in the 2nd language.....

Now, ESF schools are going to IB, after the last class of IGCSE students leave the school, all ESF will be IB school  (if wrong, pls let me know, I am not sure if South Island school and KGV will also go IB).  So the level of Chinese should be re-design and more emphasis should be put.  

So I think no matter PIC or ESF, the Chinese level will be improved.

You have described the most ideal situation.

All students are required to have 2 languages for IBD.

One has to be a language A1, which is the first language. All ESF and RC students are taking English A1 as first language.

Then there is a second language. It can either be A1, A2, B or ab initio.

A1 and A2 are native level. So if we are talking about Chinese A1 and A2, that would be hard. How hard? Well, just imagine what they are doing for English language at ESF. Chinese A1 and A2 are exactly the "Chinese version". We are talking about a lot of discussions and critics about literature, history, political issues, etc, all in Chinese language.

Language B is, on the other hand, merely second language level. They teach language B at much narrower and much shallower level. They are merely language itself.

Needless to say, ab initio is even more "elementary". I know that this is in fact for those who have learnt a language for just a few years.

My understanding is that very few international school students would be able to take Chinese A. Even with Yiu Chung and CIS, not many of them would opt to take Chinese A.

For RC, we have Chinese classes since P1. Technically speaking, all students that join at P1 should be able to have at least Chinese B when they reach IBD. However, there are also different levels chinese classes available for all year levels. What I see is that, because of the choices (or options) of different levels, the general atmosphere of Chinese learning is not as serious as other subjects. The Chinese department is doing a good job. Parents are probably also keen. But students do not seem to be taking chinese classes as seriously as other classes.

I cannot really have enough experience yet with language B to discuss further how "shallow" is language B. But I can say that it is far shallower than I have expected.

So this "option" of having different levels of Chinese classes sounded so ideal, but it is also a weak point of the program at RC. More options seem to be able to provide more choices of different level of Chinese classes. But more options may also give students the impression that there is always somewhere they can go even if they do not try hard.

Nonetheless, I believe it has probably never been an intention for IBO to require every IB student to have really a strong second language. I am sure RC is doing just what is required to bring everyone up to the required second language level. Just that it is probably my own expectation (and probably a lot other parents too) that IB Chinese B would be slightly more than what we have now.

To wrap up, if parents want good Chinese, it is too risky and unrealistic to believe that RC or ESF can deliever what they want. However, if you are happy with whatever you can get with one daily Chinese lesson, then RC or ESF are good options.

[ 本帖最後由 almom 於 09-4-6 14:11 編輯 ]