Why is Chinese so important when chosing IS?

szesze1078

Not knowing how to read and write Chinese does have limitation, less competitive than those who can
handle both languages  well - at least you cannot apply gov post.

Besides, I really don't think learning Chinese is so difficult in HK where you have the language enviroment.  I found may be not knowing Chinese
is more difficult/inconvenient if you live in a Chinese
soceity.  Therefore, I will not give any chance to my
children of not knowing Chinese - this is a must!!!

Vrindavan

The limitation is by your own imagination


we cannot want more than 100% of the limited capacity !

Why Japanese International school has two streams? Japanese stream and int'l stream

Why French International school has two streams? French stream and int'l stream

To my knowledge,
RC, Victoria, TT and other private schools never called themselves international schools

The strength of independent private schools are their real strong Chinese curriculum suitable for local Chinese students.

lenglengma

"Lenglengma seems to deem CIS a worthy IS while other similar schools should go for renaming. "

It was only because CIS calls themselves CHinese international school...hahaha...

Still no parents want to share what language do they use to communicate with their kids at home?

JJsMama

lenglengma 寫道:
"Lenglengma seems to deem CIS a worthy IS while other similar schools should go for renaming. "

It was only because CIS calls themselves CHinese international school...hahaha...

Still no parents want to share what language do they use to communicate with their kids at home?

    "French international kids should definately learn French as their second language...German Swiss should definately learn German....Chinese International school should learn Chinese, Japanese International school should learn Japanese...for all other IS which provides intensive Chinese lessons should call themselves English Chinese school instead.  Have you guys noticed that those English Chinese schools now consist of more Chinese now?Are they still international? They are not international anymore...that's why they should no longer be called International school because it simply losts its meaning."


....So why the double standard for CIS?  And for the other nationalities?

As a matter of interest, which IS do you think is undeserving?

Personally speaking, I don't care the school is called international, independent, donkey or horse.  If its
curricular, teaching approach, philosophy, culture and atmosphere fit my bill, I will go for it.   

Anyway, I have made all my points in my previous contribution and have nothing more to add.  I like to thank those who bear my lengthy postings and bid you all a good evening.

lenglengma

"....So why the double standard for CIS? And for the other nationalities?"
I seriously don't get this.
I was only using CIS as an example because CIS stresses so much on Chinese as well as English, and since they call themselves Chinese Int. School..they surely achieve what their name promises.

"ersonally speaking, I don't care the school is called international, independent, donkey or horse. If its
curricular, teaching approach, philosophy, culture and atmosphere fit my bill, I will go for it."

That was what I meant...I think they should at least clarify themselves...or else "international school" will eventually lose its meaning.  Since you don't care...no wonder what I have been saying were basically meaningless to you.

Then what kind of school would you consider truely International?

This is what I personally think...International schools should at least consist of many nationalities, so that kids can learn in a multi-nationalities environment, should also provide mult-language programs instead of Chinese only, if you don't agree on the things which were mentioned above, then you should definately go for what I called "rivate English Chinese School" instead.

What I consider as "rivate English Chinese Schools" are the ones you consider as true international schools.

If you don't care what they are being called...then no need to be offensed by what I say here...changing them to "rivate English Chinese school" should not give you any hard feelings.

Have to admit that the international schools nowadays are expected to be more Chinese centered.

I speak pure Cantonese with my kids at home...am I the only one here?

Don't tell me you that guys speak English with your kids at home while expecting them to learn Chinese at IS!

This is getting interesting....

  

lenglengma

What I said may sound meaningless to you but may sound meaningful to someone else.

You guys don't care the meaning of true IS (which you guys agreed) simply because you guys (from the beginning) never understand what International school is all about.

Are you one of those who speak English with your kids at home and on the street..trying to raise your kid as one of those native English speaker...to be able to look or sound more superior than local school kids...proudly state that your kids are being brought up in IS, because it will make everything look better...but on the other hand worry about your kid's Chinese standard will not reach your expectation....

The answers to your above comments are:

Because you have never been in or have any experiences in true IS personally.
Because we want the old skool kind of true international school.
Because you guys want to have the environment of an IS and also want to worry about whether or not your kid's Chinese standard will reach your's.
Because you lost faith in local school, that's why you want your kids to be in IS.


International schools were really meant to provide education to kids who can't study at local schools because they have low Chinese standards.  They are either kids who come from foreign countries, or kids with who had been living in foreign countries who came back to H.K. with low Chinese standards.  So...do expect this.

Newton I need help!  Hahahha..Where are you now?

Since this is Newton's message thread...I think we should talk what she/he wants to hear instead.

Hahahahaha....I bet Newton doesn't think that my message was "meaningless", because he/she likes what she/he hears.



    

Newton

JJsMaMa,

1) No matter how much you say you respect your nation, you are the handful of people in HK to abandon (although not totally) Chinese language as first language to learn if given choice! Do you realise that?

2) What is the your point on those CV thing? I simply said many jobs do not require Chinese writing and reading. Whether you want to include Chinese in your CV is irrelevant, isn't it? But frankly, I never included *Chinese writing* and *Chinese reading* in my CV.

3) I didn't say "not knowing Chinese entirely", did I? We can argue to the end of the world but English is an official language in HK and it does not take too much efforts to infer that mastering good English writing and reading skills and at the same time can communicate in Chinese conversationally have satisfied most job requirements. How many firms do use Chinese to exchange E-mail. You tell me?

4) Can a school full of Asians provides a balance view of the world to your kids? I think your main reason is to get away from the unnecessary competition in local school. SIS is even more tougher than many local school, I am utterly confused?

5) I mentioned *professionals* was to tell you that you should not blindly follow professionals and bring them up to support your argument. I never meant that 100% of professionals do not care their children, as implied by your sentence!

6) I never said I oppose learning Chinese, did I? I will support them if they like it. But I will not make it mandatory and do not make fuss about not knowing it. By choosing IS program, Chinese is like any other languages are deemed to be secondary. By being able to speak 2nd language fluently is already quite enough.

lenglengma

Newton,
100% agree on your points especially this one:
1) No matter how much you say you respect your nation, you are the handful of people in HK to abandon (although not totally) Chinese language as first language to learn if given choice! Do you realise that?


Lenglengma

lenglengma

Your daughter doesn't go to IS and you speak English with her at home.

Newton

stccmc 寫道:

How do you know you won't need Chinese in the future?  If your child loved Chinese and wanted to learn from you , you would immediately have a need to read and write Chinese!  

What if you are wrong?  What if your child need to read and write Chinese in the future?   At the end of the day, parents have to decide what is essential for their children especially when they are small.   A Chinese mother's decision that her 6 year old Chinese son will not need to read and write Chinese in the future despite being in a nice Chinese learning environment in HK is pretty bold to me.

My reply to all these is: I don't know and I never said I know.

Your magic word is *essential* and I would like to hear from you why Chinese writing and reading is *essential* in Hong Kong where English is an official language and most essential information can be obtained in English.

Newton

warrrren 寫道:
What I cannot understand is – why should those people who have been saying all the time that they want their kids to be world citizens be so ready to give up such an important part of the world's culture?
warrrren

Let me share what I think....

Absorbing one nation's culture does not need the symbolic form of the language it uses. Parents of previous generation did not have much opportunity to attend schools and learn how to read and write Chinese. Were they all excluded from Chinese's culture? No, on the contrary, they were part of the culture themselves!

Besides, 11 out of 26 jobs need good Chinese skills. Isn't it too low a ratio for a place where Cantonese is the major spoken language. If you flip around and look at how many of those 26 jobs need good English skills, it will convey completely different message and your conclusion will be completely different given that many kids English standard is still quite low after 13 years of education (what I mean is: it will naturally conclude that kids in HK really need to forsake the time spent in Chinese to be proficient in English!!!). From another point of view, by choosing international school over local school for their kids, those parents have already forsaken the most effective way of learning Chinese culture and decided Chinese is somewhat expendable.

warrrren

Dear Newton,

Besides, 11 out of 26 jobs need good Chinese skills. Isn't it too low a ratio for a place where Cantonese is the major spoken language. If you flip around and look at how many of those 26 jobs need good English skills, it will convey completely different message and your conclusion will be completely different given that many kids English standard is still quite low after 13 years of education (what I mean is: it will naturally conclude that kids in HK really need to forsake the time spent in Chinese to be proficient in English!!!). From another point of view, by choosing international school over local school for their kids, those parents have already forsaken the most effective way of learning Chinese culture and decided Chinese is somewhat expendable.

Putting subjective feeling about Chinese aside, the point is - a guy who knows English but not Chinese can only apply to 15 of the 26 jobs; another guy who is proficient in both  Chinese and English has 26 opportunities open to him.

By the way, I do not think a guy whose ability is so restricted that he has to give up his mother tongue to be proficient in a language as simple as English deserves any of the 26 jobs.

Regards,
warrrren

Newton

warrrren 寫道:

Putting subjective feeling about Chinese aside, the point is - a guy who knows English but not Chinese can only apply to 15 of the 26 jobs; another guy who is proficient in both  Chinese and English has 26 opportunities open to him.

By the way, I do not think a guy whose ability is so restricted that he has to give up his mother tongue to be proficient in a language as simple as English deserves any of the 26 jobs.

Regards,
warrrren

Is making a case that a guy who is good at both is better than a guy who is good at only one makes you feel you win the argument? Isn't it too trivial to make such a comparison? I can equally tell you that a guy who is proficient in math, physics, chemistry, biology, economics, computer science as well as English and Chinese a even better candidate than one who only proficient in both English and Chinese and further proclaim that a guy ability should be unrestricted to learn all of them well ---- but is it meaningful?

All along I have been questioning about students' ability to learn 2 languages at the same time and you simply say there are no problem at all and children ability is so *unrestricted* that they must be able to cope with both without any problem. Given such condition, what can I say?! Try talk to any person on the street of Hong Kong, most of them have been taking classes on both languages for pretty much of their youth, and ask truthfully yourself how many of them can be considered to be proficient in both languages as you pictured?

I am not against Chinese....I am totally cool if parents choose for their kids Chinese as the first language to study (I truly think this way but unfortunately I have already been classified as anti-Chinese!)......but if one has chosen English as the first language to learn, he may not have the qualifications to tell the others how much he loves the language and culture of his mother land and how much should one not abandon Chinese (as I said, those people are the first one to abandon Chinese....just that it is not a total abandoning)

MARSHMELLOW

I always love a good debate so could not resist participating in this forum...speaking from my own experience, I cannot write Chinese although I have learnt to speak and read it . English was my mother tongue. However, I feel that whilst I could get away with not being fluent in Chinese - I do not think that our children will be able to eg you cannot apply for a job in the Govt if you do not have a Form 5 Chinese qualification. For my kids, I have decided that they should be proficient in both English and Chinese as we live in HK now, we are Chinese and maybe one day, my kids will want to work in China or Hong Kong etc...I do not want to make that decision for them. I believe that kids are able to speak in more than one language without any problem - Newton's observation about HK children not being fluent in English is mainly due to the poor standard of English teaching in HK generally and also due to our conservative culture. Chinese people never want to lose "face" and therefore are usually too embarrassed to practice their English. If you do not use a language, you will never be good at it.

Newton

MARSHMELLOW 寫道:
I always love a good debate so could not resist participating in this forum...speaking from my own experience, I cannot write Chinese although I have learnt to speak and read it . English was my mother tongue. However, I feel that whilst I could get away with not being fluent in Chinese - I do not think that our children will be able to eg you cannot apply for a job in the Govt if you do not have a Form 5 Chinese qualification. For my kids, I have decided that they should be proficient in both English and Chinese as we live in HK now, we are Chinese and maybe one day, my kids will want to work in China or Hong Kong etc...I do not want to make that decision for them. I believe that kids are able to speak in more than one language without any problem - Newton's observation about HK children not being fluent in English is mainly due to the poor standard of English teaching in HK generally and also due to our conservative culture. Chinese people never want to lose "face" and therefore are usually too embarrassed to practice their English. If you do not use a language, you will never be good at it.

It is always interesting to have a person who native in English to discuss with. Let me tell you my experience (as a native Cantonese). I took HKCEE and HKALE exam in Hong Kong and passed them with pretty good results including English and Chinese. However, I dare not to claim my Chinese writing and reading up to the standard. I sat for government exam once and I can honestly say that I flunked the Chinese exam big time (BTW, people with F5 Chinese standard can apply gov posts - but how many of them are up to the gov Chinese standard?!) I considered myself to be pretty good students and surely well over many other students in both international and local schools in terms of academic achievements and yet learning Chinese language to me is completely difficult and ineffective tasks. It is purely due to the unstructural form of characters and its vast amount of vocabulary.

I cannot forecast future and neither anyone here participating in this discussion can. The only thing I know and have personal experience for 15 years is that  learning to be proficient in Chinese, unlike what many parents here pictured, is quite a task to achieve.  

Vrindavan

This is a good thread
i suggest it should be put at the top of this forum section, is it possible?

This thread is not simply debating whether local Chinese students should learn to read, write traditional Chinese plus simpified Chinese and be able to talk in Cantonese/Putonghua at F.5/7 level.

Please re-read the thread topic

Once you have chosen the IS path, try to think the issue again from the IS and your kids' situation.

>> I do not want to make that decision for them

Whatever your opinion is, you are also making a decision for them. In future, your kids are going to reap what you sow today.