Why is Chinese so important when chosing IS?

Newton

lenglengma,

I am basically with you especially the Mandarin. In fact, many parents I know stress more on Mandarin than Cantonese when choosing IS. To me, it is purely a trendy thing.

lenglengma

Newton,
Then it is not about being able to speak a particular language in a particular place anymore....because Hong Kong Chinese supposed to learn Cantonese instead of Mandarin...I don't believe knowing Mandarin will keep them survive in H.K. easier than knowing Cantonese.  I think knowing English will survive easier than knowing Mandarin in H.K.
lenglengma

JJsMama

I don't think national identity is such a vague concept.   If I am of Chinese blood,  I am Chinese.  Like it or not, people of other nationalities see me as Chinese even if I think myself a banana.   And as Chinese, we should be proud of our national identity.  Our language is part of the identity.   Take myself as example.  I have lived in 5 countries and held regional positions across a great number of markets.  I spend half my life away from HK and consider myself quite an international citizen.   I can tell you the more races I meet, the more I grow to respect myself being a Chinese.   And no matter where I am, which national I speak to, they always know their languages.   Even Singaporeans, with English as their official tongue, have to study their respective native dialect.

It's true I have never had to write Chinese correspondence or documents in my career.  But it doesn't mean my Chinese linguistic ability never comes into play.  Even though my China counterparts have the good grace to entertain me in English (both conversationally & in correspondence), I earnestly don't think this practice will sustain forever.   When we hire people in HK, in addition to the relevant skill sets, the pre-requisites are English & Chinese, period.   If we need a pure English speaker with extraordinary experience, we would hire Caucasians from overseas.   I am not trying to make a generalisation (if you work in hi-banking for the top houses, you probably don't need to utter a single word of Chinese), but, logically speaking, why would one settle for a Chinese grad who can only speak English, and not someone who is effectively bi-lingual??  There are many graduates from top tier universities who can do both, plus more.   It’s a competitive world.   I know many ABCs, CBCs, British Chinese who hold great jobs in HK because they have gained very valuable experience in their own countries, not because they are native English speakers.

I agree Chinese is a relatively difficult language to master.  It takes considerable effort to get proficient.   It was not my favourite subject although I did not find it particularly difficult.   Knowledge is an asset.  I personally would not deprive my child from the opportunity to learn anything (especially something as important as our language) even if I have developed a phobia in my youth.  They may choose to pull out say after P5.  But, at least they would have picked up some fundamental skills.  I would hate for someone to ask my kid one day how come he doesn't know Chinese and his reply to be because 'my parents said it's too difficult and useless'.

Anyway, I don't think parents who think Chinese is important should NOT consider international schools.   Aren't there pretty good options out there like CIS and SIS?  Even ISF, though it's considered an independent school, offers an international school mode of education.   And isn't ESF going to offer IB diploma which requires a second language (one obvious choice to be Mandarin)?   Should French International, GSIS be rubbished because they also teach their national language?  There may not be such a choice of international schools 15, 20 years back.  The world changes.   A lot of parents at my time just send kids to boarding schools at the age of 13 or 14; now with different IS options, they probably keep the kids home longer.

You may think us parents are fashion follower.  The fact is we simply like to give the best opportunities to our children and equip them with the right tools.   My son is 31/2.  He is already effectively bi-lingual (Eng & Can) and can recognise more Chinese words than his daddy.   He completely integrates with his American, British and French neighbourhood friends (he even questioned them how come they don't speak Chinese); and (I was rather astonished) he can speak simple Mandarin to a 5 year old Chinese boy in China .   It was obvious from his eyes that he felt empowered and confident over his peers with his tri-lingual capabilities.   The beauty is, it's never a painful learning process for him.

Anyway, is Chinese/Mandarin a fashion, fad or the way forward?  Time will tell.    There are a lot of well-healed professional parents out there who choose bi-lingual international programme, and I don't think they are complete idiots.

Newton

stccmc

I myself is a vivd example of how Chinese writing and reading is wasted.

Once you sign your kid up for IS, your kid is considered to be different from the rest of say 95% of HK students in terms of language learning environment. Chinese reading and writing is not optional for most students in HK while your kid has a choice.

Regarding to job market, I have never come across a job which requirement is to know Chinese reading and writing. Fluent *speaking Mandarin* is sometimes what people asked for.

My feeling is: it is too soon to force your kid to learn something that you think is going to be important to them.

Newton

JJsMaMa,

Let's get a bit pedantic here. Hong Kong is different from the rest of China where national identity is vague. Our generation has been receiving western style education, drive our cars on the left lane, learn English as much as Chinese, and demanding democracy much more than people from mainland China. Your Chinese passport allows you to get a 10 year visa to the US while the same Chinese passport from mainland China can only be 3 months. I am not denying myself as Chinese but there are fundamental differences between Chinese in Hong Kong and Chinese in mainland China and it is how foreigners see it (at least for the majority of foreigners living in the same dorm with me). National identity is something that is perceived by the others, not coming from own respect of being a Chinese.

You might want to be a bit more elaborate than just a period when you claim English and Chinese are pre-requisite for many jobs. I am pretty sure a lot of job need both languages but it is only confined to conversational Chinese. It is entirely rare for employer in Hong Kong demanding Chinese writing and reading as pre-requisites.

You are basically making a case where one with both Chinese and English writing and reading skills will be a better candidate given the rest are equal ---- Well! isn't it too trivial? What I am trying to say though is the advantage may not justify a kid to make tremendous efforts to learn writing and reading in secondary language (now is Chinese in international school) given that they have mastered conversational skills.

I do not totally deny children from learning Chinese in IS. As long as they are interested in it, it is alright. As a side topic, why SIS? SIS is not really an international school (well, may be international in HK but local in Singapore) as it adopts pretty much the educational system from Singapore. The curriculum is as tough as if not tougher than that in Hong Kong because part of their aim is to prepare Singaporean in Hong Kong to take their local exam when they go back. Is choosing SIS somewhat killing the purpose of enrolling international schooling?

The offering of Chinese in many international school as an optional course is more or less a marketing technique. You are not seriously think that they will offer some sort of rigorous Chinese language for the kids, do you? Or do you have any expectation of a kid Chinese language purely by going through these optional courses? To me, it is just another form of English language taught in local school. How many local students you find can speak acceptable English?

My kids can speak both English and Chinese well too. But to me, it is too early to tell whether he can learn Chinese characters with ease. Up to now, even the number of English words he knows is only a tip in an iceberg and with his growing speed of curiosity and many other stuffs of his interest, I am even worrying he will eventually lose his rather happy experience of learning English words (which is already quite easy compared to Chinese).

I am not saying that I am 100% right. If your kid can swallow thousands of different non structural Chinese characters with ease and interest, by all means. However, following those well-healed professionals may not be right all the time since many well-healed professionals may not even spend more than 1 hour a day with their kids to understand what they want and need.

Sorry for rather lengthy message.....

WYmom

Newton,

Proficiency in reading and writing Chinese is necessary for jobs like marketing, journalist, laws drafting etc.  Being bilingual is no doubt more competitive for survival in future.  Learning any language will not be too difficult for kids if they start early.  It is just difficult to find a school good at both English and Chinese.

In the past, maybe only CIS and Yew Chung really offer bilingual international cirriculum.  Now more IS try to offer this, such as ISF and Renaissance.  Comments on ISF so far are very positive.  Local schools like PLK CKY and Victoria also follow this trend.  Yet can see some results only after 7 to 10 years' time.

lenglengma

If you think learning one more language is a skill (which I agree), why don't you make your child learn French or Spanish instead.  There are more people speaking Spanish than Chinese in this world...do you know?

"Globalization is irreversible. How difficult is it to find a regional job, or work in somewhere else---if you have the right skills."

If parents think that finding a regional job is easy, then they don't have to put their child in IS and also have to worry about whether or not their child will also know Chinese.

"Food for thought. Why do you think many of the regional jobs in Asia go to Hongkongers, Singaporeans and Malaysians?"

Come on...Regional jobs go to HK people etc...because they speak English!

lenglengma

"It’s a competitive world. I know many ABCs, CBCs, British Chinese who hold great jobs in HK because they have gained very valuable experience in their own countries, not because they are native English speakers."

It is because they have that little something to make it to the top..that was what I was talking about..not because they are bilingual.  Being bilingual doesn't make you successful...it has its advantage though.
It really depends on how you raise your kid, what kind of person he/she ends up being etc. to determine whether or not he/she will be successful in the future.

"There are a lot of well-healed professional parents out there who choose bi-lingual international programme, and I don't think they are complete idiots."

I don't think they are completely idiots..I think it is okay to choose a second language to learn.  It is a must in all IS now.  However, parents nowadays tend to stress so much on learning perfect Chinese..and expect their kids to speak, read, and write perfect Cantonese/Mandarin as local kids.  They also expect that their IS provides Chinese lesson every day!  
They want their kids to learn tranditional instead of simplified...well, I really think that they should just let their kids study in local school then.  It is just a bit too much.

It is okay to learn a second language..but to the right point.  Parents just put too much stress on their kids nowadays.  I have different point of view, I prefer my kids to learn more about arts, sports and music rather then "mastering" another language.
Or..if they want, they can learn French or Spanish instead of Chinese.

I also agree that it is a marketing strategie that IS nowadays provide a very intense program in Chinese nowadays.  Those kind of so called "international school" should change their names to "English Chinese School" instead.

Please share what kind of language do you guys speak at home with the kids.

French international kids should definately learn French as their second language...German Swiss should definately learn German....Chinese International school should learn Chinese, Japanese International school should learn Japanese...for all other IS which provides intensive Chinese lessons should call themselves English Chinese school instead.  Have you guys noticed that those English Chinese schools now consist of more Chinese now?Are they still international?  They are not international anymore...that's why they should no longer be called International school because it simply losts its meaning.  They don't even have a chance to mingle and learn with different nationalities.

JJsMama

Newton 寫道:
JJsMaMa,

Let's get a bit pedantic here. Hong Kong is different from the rest of China where national identity is vague. Our generation has been receiving western style education, drive our cars on the left lane, learn English as much as Chinese, and demanding democracy much more than people from mainland China. Your Chinese passport allows you to get a 10 year visa to the US while the same Chinese passport from mainland China can only be 3 months. I am not denying myself as Chinese but there are fundamental differences between Chinese in Hong Kong and Chinese in mainland China and it is how foreigners see it (at least for the majority of foreigners living in the same dorm with me). National identity is something that is perceived by the others, not coming from own respect of being a Chinese.

____

May be I have made a wrong choice of word.   Perhaps I should say 'race'?   Whatever.  The bottom line is if one walk in with a Chinese face and is brought up in a Chinese-speaking community such as HK, it is more than reasonable to expect one to be literate in the language.   You may disagree with my statement but I personally believe it's a matter of self-respect.   

Incidentally, my position is neutral with China's Chinese.   I'm neither for nor against them.   I may not claim I am "from China" because there are too big of a fundamental difference between Hongkongers and "Chinamen" for me to see that we are exactly the same people.  But I definitely don't feel ashamed wearing the HKSAR/China badge.    Anyway, this is a digression and is irrelevant to the topic.

_______


You might want to be a bit more elaborate than just a period when you claim English and Chinese are pre-requisite for many jobs. I am pretty sure a lot of job need both languages but it is only confined to conversational Chinese. It is entirely rare for employer in Hong Kong demanding Chinese writing and reading as pre-requisites.

_______

Please don't tell me you've never included Chinese in your CV just to add weight despite the fact that you think it's useless.


_____

You are basically making a case where one with both Chinese and English writing and reading skills will be a better candidate given the rest are equal ---- Well! isn't it too trivial? What I am trying to say though is the advantage may not justify a kid to make tremendous efforts to learn writing and reading in secondary language (now is Chinese in international school) given that they have mastered conversational skills.
_________

As I said, I am not generalising.   But given graduates who have common education and skills sets, the language competitive advantage is a reality.   By not knowing Chinese, you are probably limiting many job opportunities and closing a lot of doors for your child in HK.


______
     

I do not totally deny children from learning Chinese in IS. As long as they are interested in it, it is alright. As a side topic, why SIS? SIS is not really an international school (well, may be international in HK but local in Singapore) as it adopts pretty much the educational system from Singapore. The curriculum is as tough as if not tougher than that in Hong Kong because part of their aim is to prepare Singaporean in Hong Kong to take their local exam when they go back. Is choosing SIS somewhat killing the purpose of enrolling international schooling?

________________

SIS is first built to cater for the expat S'pore children who will eventually go back to their own country.   I agree with you that it is less 'international' by nature and are not adopting IB like many international schools have recently.   Nevertheless, they still have a composition of Singaporeans, Malaysians, Chinese, Indian, Koreans and Japanese.  Part of the reason for going for an international education I mentioned previously is to allow the kid to be exposed to different cultures and have a more balanced view of the world, by that, I will say SIS is still an international school.

SIS' curriculum may be demanding, but many parents feedback their kids really love the school.  I can only presume that a tough curriculum does not necessarily translate into a tough learning experience.

______

The offering of Chinese in many international school as an optional course is more or less a marketing technique. You are not seriously think that they will offer some sort of rigorous Chinese language for the kids, do you? Or do you have any expectation of a kid Chinese language purely by going through these optional courses? To me, it is just another form of English language taught in local school. How many local students you find can speak acceptable English?
________

I don't think many parents are expecting our children to be Chinese language professors whether they learn it from traditional or international schools.   And yes, I do find IS students to be able to speak excellent Mandarin.  Much better than kids from local schools.  So it is NOT a marketing gimmick.

___________

My kids can speak both English and Chinese well too. But to me, it is too early to tell whether he can learn Chinese characters with ease. Up to now, even the number of English words he knows is only a tip in an iceberg and with his growing speed of curiosity and many other stuffs of his interest, I am even worrying he will eventually lose his rather happy experience of learning English words (which is already quite easy compared to Chinese).

I am not saying that I am 100% right. If your kid can swallow thousands of different non structural Chinese characters with ease and interest, by all means. However, following those well-healed professionals may not be right all the time since many well-healed professionals may not even spend more than 1 hour a day with their kids to understand what they want and need.
_______

It seems to me that you oppose to learning Chinese mainly because you think this chore takes tremendous efforts (which you obviously did when you were young) and it's not justifiable because it's not a necessity.  Let's not assume on our kids behalf their likes and dislikes, and their ability to learn.   It's true that some children may not enjoy Chinese, just like mathematics or history or science or sports or music.    If you don't foster a learning environment for them in the first place, how can you be sure to say they won't like it?    I think we have to all agree that the later we get exposed to the language, the harder it is to learn.  But, it's not a doomsday situation, and I don’t know why people are somehow portrayed as suppressive parents.

You may be right that some parents don’t have a minute of the day for their children.  But I also know a lot of professional parents who are actively involved with their child’s education as well as their hobbies.  Even though they have busy schedules, they give the kids as much quality time as they can afford.   

My apologies for the long message too.  I do get carry away.

_____
Sorry for rather lengthy message.....

warrrren

warrrren

Chinese? Why bother?  Simple, it is a beautiful language; an important part of world's heritage; and, it is not irrelevant.

I have a quick look of the first two pages of the Taylor Root's circular, which have been lying on my desk for a few days.  Of the 26 jobs listed there (which include jobs in the corporate finance, banking, insurance, capital management and legal fields), 11 require good Chinese skill.  Does it explain something?  I do not have a crystal ball and cannot tell whether it be Chinese, English, Spanish or Marsian that will rule the world in 2030.   But, why belittles Chinese (or for that matter English or any particular language)?  Do we have to forsake Chinese to be proficient in English?  I guess we should consider ourselves lucky that it is entirely possible that our kids and we can, with relative ease, attain a high level of proficiency in both English and Chinese.  It saddens me that some people in Hong Kong (I am not referring to anyone in this forum) take such a dim view of themselves that English and Chinese become either-or.  Many expatriates working in Hong Kong are envious of us; many of them are learning Chinese and getting their kids learn Chinese.  None of them, at least none of the sound-minded expats with whom I work, dismiss their mother tongue as irrelevant in the way some of the locals do with Chinese.

Please note that I am not comparing international schools with local schools.  Nor do I intend to argue that Chinese should be taught at international schools.  No, not at all.  I have no difficulty whatever in accepting that ten different schools can do things in eleven different ways, and at the same time all ten of them be considered excellent schools.  What I cannot understand is – why should those people who have been saying all the time that they want their kids to be world citizens be so ready to give up such an important part of the world's culture?

warrrren

lenglengma

It is because roughly 1/6 of the people are Chinese in this world.
Same thing with Hindi.  Many of the people speak Hindi, but it is not the most common.
Would you prefer your kids to learn Hindi rather than Spanish, since more people speak Hindi than Spanish?  More than 22 countries in the world speak Spanish in every day life, not as second language:
Andorra  Guatemala
Argentina  Honduras
Bolivia  Mexico
Chile  Nicaragua
Colombia  Panama
Costa Rica  Paraguay
Cuba  Peru
Dominican Republic   Puerto Rico
Ecuador  Spain
El Salvador  Uruguay
Equatorial Guinea  Venezuela

According to the wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_speakers

Chinese is the number 1 most spoken language, bare in mind that every kind of Chinese put into account, meaning when they say Chinese, it doesn't mean "mandarin", all other dialacts are counted as "Chinese".
Hindi is the second most popular and Spanish is the third, English is the forth...do you think that Hindi is more important than Spanish and Spanish is more important than English?

Well..anyway..I am not suggesting that your kid or my kid should go learn Spanish rather than Chinese...I just think that learning Chinese is not really a must.  
Knowing one more language is always good...but it doesn't really have to be Chinese.
Besides, IS nowadays teach simplified...do you know that our kids will have troubles reading or writing traditional Chinese?  Does it mean that they will have troubles living in H.K. and Taiwan where Traditional Chinese are used?  So...we shouldn't expect too much from IS teaching Chinese to our kids.
My bottom line is...as long as they know how to speak Cantonese well...I am cool with it.  That's why I speak Cantonese with my kids at home and make sure that they know and understand what Chinese culture and virtues are all about.
No one wants to share what language do they speak at home with their kids?

Vrindavan

i agree with lenglengma and Newton

repeat :

There are two choices
1. independent private schools - more or strong Chinese
2. international schools - less or no Chinese

do not expect international schools
to be independent private schools

make up the decision what type of school you prefer

lenglengma

是但啦....hahaha... Whatever you say...

lenglengma

Vrindavan,
This is exactly what I meant.
Lenglengma   

JJsMama

So by your definition, is CIS an international school or an independent school?  Given it too has a vigorous bilingual programme plus a majority of Chinese students (though some may choose to use their foreign passports to label themselves as Canadians, Americans, Australians....).  Lenglengma seems to deem CIS a worthy IS while other similar schools should go for renaming.  

(btw,  I'm not going to spend time arguing whether some international schools should be called independent private schools as it depends on how the individual or organisation defines 'international'.  Is it by its syllabus?  By student composition?  By the number of foreign teachers?   By the number of white faces?   If parents are happy to pay money and place their children in an 'international' school with a majority of Asian or Chinese, so be it.  Hong Kong is a free society.)

Going back to the topic which is 'Why is Chinese so important when chosing IS.'.  Many parents have already stated their personal reasons.   As for the intensity of the Chinese programme, it is up to the individual to decide after weighing other equally important selection criteria.   For those who don't believe in learning the language, they are free to choose GSIS, FIS, HKIS, or whichever one that offers a virtually non-existent Chinese programme.   

And I don't seem to recall any parents here wanting their children to be Chinese language professors.  Similarly, I don't think we expect our children to be Eng lit teachers just because we send them to IS.   We are after is bi-lingual proficieny.  Get it?   Why are people so eager to declare IS incapable of delivering Chinese.  I don't hear the relevant schools saying it.

Vrindavan 寫道:
i agree with lenglengma and Newton

repeat :

There are two choices
1. independent private schools - more or strong Chinese
2. international schools - less or no Chinese

do not expect international schools
to be independent private schools

make up the decision what type of school you prefer