你地既寶寶係學中文定英文先?

FattyDaddy

真正嘅“講中文“係中國普通話，好多人話“講中文“其實只係講粵語，十三億中國人有十二億係唔識聽。

亦留意到有人反對專登同細路講英語唔講粵語，咁如果父母嘅中國普通話水平麻麻，但專登同個細路講“真正中文“唔講粵語，咁又有冇人反對？如果只反對前者唔反對後者，其實兩者又有冇實質分別？兩者都係專登用唔係自己最流利嘅語言黎同個細路對話。

FattyDaddy

到教細路仔讀寫嘅時候就仲得意, 我地會教以下邊一種寫法?

(A) 我先把蘋果洗洗
(B) 我洗洗個蘋果先

A係中文, B係粵文。如果個細路仔作文寫B, 輕者被先生鬧, 重者唔及格要做過。

如果我地認為同細路仔講母語(粵語)係咁重要, 但又幾乎嚴禁佢書寫母語, 而且仲覺得係理所當然地要禁, 係眯有啲神奇?

FattyDaddy

judy 發表於 12-12-10 09:50
好仔依家我寫嘢，就係我手寫我心。要我寫"規範"嘅中文得唔得，又得喎。

唔係得唔得嘅問題。

問題係假如我地高舉母語, 但學校又嚴禁書寫母語, 而我地又覺得禁係理所當然, 呢樣先神奇。

中國境內, 學校唔單止禁寫粵文, 更係進一步禁講粵語, 爺孫兩代唔能夠用粵語溝通已經係相當普遍嘅情況, 大家會唔會認為新一代中國粵人因為唔係以母語粵語受教而形成思想障礙?

FattyDaddy

simpleway 發表於 12-12-10 10:49
都說"母語", 為什麼不提父/母子的情況而只講爺孫?  ...

用爺孫, 係因為爺輩可能講中國國語能力真係有限, 而父母輩只係冇咁流利, 未至於唔能夠溝通。

我自己個人其實冇乜強烈睇法, 母唔母語可能會有影響, 但又未必係想像中咁嚴重。人嘅思想係眯真係靠語言? 始終中國有億計兒童唔係以母語受教, 而天生聾人自少就冇辦法聽到任何語言, 亦唔見得會成為智障白痴甚至完全唔識思考嘅植物人。

FattyDaddy

The current first language of Hongkong is Cantonese, not Chinese, even the Hongkong government only claim they are promoting 母語教學 and not 中文教學. Those Hongkongers who believe they are speaking "Chinese" are purposely ignoring the fact that their mother tongue is not understood by the vast majority of Chinese, and their writings are intelligible only because they purposely don't write in their mother tongue.

Most Singaporeans have their ancestral roots in Southern China, and their mother tongue was Hokkien, ChiuChow, Cantonese, Hakka, and HaiNanese, so both English and Chinese (Mandarin) are acquired tongues and they are quite clear about this. No one care what one speaks at home or at leisure, but at school and businesses the word "Chinese" only means one thing.

FattyDaddy

shadeslayer 發表於 12-12-28 17:37
Who gives YOU the right to monopolize the meaning of Chinese?...

Haha, it is not me who define what is Chinese, it is a country called China and and the international community defining what it is, and what you and I and even the Hongkong government think are largely irrelevant.

Picture this, when China's ambassador to the UN addresses the assembly in Chinese, what would he/she speak in? When he/she hears Chinese translation through the earpiece, what do you think he/she would hear?

Closer to home, lets say a foreign company was setting up shop in Hongkong and was hiring a local GM, and had to choose between 2 candidates, a Singaporean and a Hongkonger, both claimed to speak Chinese, and the Hongkonger (could be you too) went one step further to declare "Chinese is his/her mother tongue". The foreigner boss, a poor sod fresh off the banana boat didn't have a clue and believed the Hongkonger and hired him/her. First day at work the boss asked the new hire to phone all the major customers in China to say hello, and what a shock the boss got when it was revealed that 9 out of 10 customers in China couldn't understand the new hire's "Chinese".

Feel free to indulge in your little cyberspace comfort zone and relish on little tidbits of agreeable information you manage to scrape from it, too bad the real world doesn't work that way. Does the Hongkong government have a provincial mindset? YOU BET

FattyDaddy

akys 發表於 12-12-28 23:39
其實中國有沒有法律或其他大官說過閩南話，廣東話，上海話， 潮州話等不能稱為中文或Chinese Language。 ...

"Chinese language" is not the same as "Chinese", just like an "Indian language" could be Punjabi or Gujarati or Tamil or Bengali, but as far as India and the international community is concerned, speaking "Indian" means speaking Hindi.

廣東話，上海話， 潮州話, they are 粵語，滬語，閩語, they are "Chinese languages" 中國(的)語文, but that is not the same as "Chinese" 中文.

Honestly, i don't see why we are even having this discussion, if Hongkongers think Cantonese is "Chinese", I suggest they go to China speaking Cantonese and see how far they can go.

FattyDaddy

akys 發表於 12-12-29 01:39
我不如做預言師，看看幾時溫室效應惡化， 核戰, 地磁轉移，隕石撞擊，政黨下台，世界末日好過。

If you have nothing better to do with your time, feel free to speculate on armageddon and kingdom come as much as you like, but Hongkong being a part of China is here and now.

Sure, you can ignore that too andnever go beyond LoWu, then you can continue to think Cantonese is not merely a Chinese language but Chinese itself {:1_1:}

FattyDaddy

shadeslayer 發表於 12-12-29 12:21
I replied seriously in the last message with proof from the HK SAR government, wiki,  dictionary, etc

Haha, you seriously think these are "proofs"?

Proof of the pudding is in the eating, so prove your "Chinese" by going to China and find out how far you can get, not by staying up all night scraping that cyberspace barrel.

FattyDaddy

laorenjia 發表於 12-12-29 13:36
蒙文、藏文，回文全部都唔係中文。文言文、中國古四大名著、繁體字，通通唔係用規範漢語寫嘅，通通都唔叫Chinese

I hope you know the origins of 蒙文、藏文，回文

I'm not talking about Chinese literature nor culture nor traditional vs simplified characters, just Chinese as a language in a practical sense.

One can always adopt fuzzy definitions, that Chinese is not one language but a myriad of languages, and that Cantonese is over 1000 years old and is in the granddad class of Chinese languages. This is only self gratifying and of no practical use. If an organization hires you because you claim to speak Chinese, they expect you to be able to communicate with most Chinese in China and the world or you'll get the sack, fuzzy definitions have no place there.

FattyDaddy

laorenjia 發表於 12-12-29 15:22
回復 FattyDaddy 的帖子

係呀，普通話真係好緊要。多口問句：what is your definition of "Chinese"？ ...

Chinese as a language in a practical sense means Mandarin or PuTongHua whichever way you want to call it. Rightly or wrongly, Mandarin has become "Chinese" understood by most Chinese in China and the world.

Are we talking about education here? If an impartial foreigner wants to be educated in "Chinese", Mandarin would be what he/she learns, one would expect this to be common sense.

FattyDaddy

laorenjia 發表於 12-12-29 23:27
原來我都蠢唔晒，估到你講嘅Chinese即係普通話。再一次講，普通話真係好緊要。但可能你旅居海外，已受污 ...

We should go back to how all this got started, someone mentioned the fact that an old fart like Lee Kuan Yew (who is fluent in his mother tongue Hokkien) spent years trying to improve his Mandarin, I was saying he and many Singaporeans are quite clear that "Chinese" means Mandarin and not their native tongues Hokkien and ChiuChow and Cantonese and Hakka and HaiNanese, that is why they make the extra effort, then somebody got all agitated and screamed no no no, how dare you say Cantonese is not Chinese.

用字準確些少? I was clear enough, and if my words raised somebody's (hopefully not yours) blood pressure and caused him/her to loose sleep, that is just too bad

FattyDaddy

shadeslayer 發表於 12-12-30 02:45
The current first language of Hongkong is Cantonese, not Chinese ...

Yep, I said that, and I went on to say Singaporeans realize that "Chinese" means Mandarin and not their native dialects, so their Chinese schools went 100% Mandarin and even an old fart like Lee Kuan Yew with one foot in the grave still makes a strenuous effort to improve his Mandarin.

Meanwhile what are Hongkongers doing? They are still fooling around with 母語教學 believing that is "Chinese teaching". The outcome is Singaporeans are not only comparatively stronger in English but in Mandarin as well, and who do you think are more competitive in the global market as far as language skills are concerned?

Do you feel offended by this? May be Hongkongers should recognize a wake up call when they see one.

FattyDaddy

shadeslayer 發表於 12-12-30 10:33
has nothing to do with what we have been discussing
"Cantonese is not Chinese?"

Why dwell on that sentence? I already clarified long ago that Cantonese is a "Chinese language" but not "Chinese". If a foreigner wants to learn "Chinese" he should learn Mandarin and not Cantonese, just like if you want to learn "Italian" you should learn Northern Italian and not Neapolitan.

Regarding 問路, my personal experience is this, when I first visited Singapore 20 years ago, I did occasionally face the situation of some stranger asking me the way, the default language they used was English back then, nowadays that has changed to Chinese (Mandarin). Of course if they see an Indian or Malay or white stranger they would still use English, but if they see an oriental face then Mandarin is the default. This goes to show that the status of Mandarin had indeed been elevated over the years.

In Singapore, English schools are 100% English and Chinese schools are 100% Mandarin, it is 兩文兩語 and dialects have no place. Singaporean's English has always been strong and their Mandarin has gone from acceptable to strong. Now lets look at Hongkong's 兩文三語, English schools are not 100% English (with standards lowering too) and Chinese schools are still mostly Cantonese, the result is Hongkongers English has degraded from acceptable to weak while Mandarin has only improved from non-existent to weak.

FattyDaddy

囝囝爸 發表於 12-12-30 11:14
說實在的，在全球華人社會中，真的普遍民眾都能有中英雙語能力的，只有香港而已。...

Obviously the author of this article is another who thinks 粵語能力 is 中語能力

FattyDaddy

shadeslayer 發表於 12-12-30 16:53
Just go to any of the countless retail stores in HK and listen to how much Mandarin you hear. Most of the sales people in these shops are HK locals. ...

That is hardly an accurate assessment because those shop assistants are trained and/or selected, the 問路 test which you suggested for assessing English would be more accurate. Try it, find a stranger on the streets in WanChai who looks like a local native and ask for the way to "Rui An Zhong Xin" and see how many can give you a satisfactory reply in Mandarin, I bet many won't even realize the place you want to go to is 瑞安中心.

FattyDaddy

囝囝爸 發表於 12-12-31 11:17
中國自古以來，是方言多的國家之一，未有統一語言之前，中國人都沒有中語能力？

History is history, now is now, many a prosperous society had diminished and even disappeared because they couldn't adapt to changing times and circumstances.