Letter from ESF to parents

easydad

回復 OKmom 的帖子

I cannot agree to your comment totally.

If the victim felt justice was being done, the whole incident would not evolve this way.  Given that the victim did not report to police until they received legal letters, they should not be the harsh type.  If one looks at subsequent events, one can conclude that the school lacks sincerity in trying to solve the issue.  Without youtube, the incident would not be known widely and the chance for getting real apology would be easy to guess.

As for ESF's earlier attempt to request for youtube withdrawal, if it was done in a well mannered fashion, 2-way communication should start.  Then, ESF should know the clip was not uploaded by Kitchee or related parents.  Legal letters would therefore not be sent and they would not ended up provoking parents to report the case to police.  It is ESF's handling that pushed the matter to a point of no return.  This attempt also revealed the management at ESF lack common sense re internet.

Yet, I do agree to your writing in theory.  Just that it only applies to parties that are responsible and honorable.

Btw, even if both sides have done certain things unappropriately before the kick, there is a matter of degree and scale.  If I stepped on you, do you have the right to kill me?  After the whole incident happened, the parents/school should step in to solve and educate appropriately.

I am not related to Kitchee.  Nor do I have anything against ESF.  I voice out because I care, as a parent.  It is what we do today that shape our kid's world tomorrow.  Anyway, I have spent too much time on this already.  Hope this incident can be handled with sincerity and wisdom going forward.

bobbycheung

easydad 發表於 12-3-17 11:54
回復 OKmom 的帖子

I cannot agree to your comment totally.

If I stepped on you, do you have the right to kill me?

No.  But if you won 16-0 against me in the first match and 4-0 against me in the first half of the re-match, then I might have the right to kill you by kicking your face in.  Well, my coach said nothing afterwards, did he?  So what did I do wrong?.



Yes, our team did play rough and go in hard.  We also made pretty bad fouls. So what?  Again, our coach was there watching all the time.  If he had thought that we shouldn't play that way, he would have talked to us and stopped us, wouldn't he?



Really, I don't understand why I am now taking all the blame?  You know, the CEO of ESF said in her letter that appropriate action will be taken to deal with this incident.  Even adults like her still can't figure out what to do after so many days, how could you expect a 10 year old kid like me to know what to do especially when I only did the kick in the heat of the moment?

OKmom

回復 easydad 的帖子

But what made you think or stated anywhere that ESF CEO had requested Kitchee Club in not a well-manner at her first attempt? Kitchee parents did tape the incident and posted it on YouTube, that's why ESF CEO had contacted Kitchee to press for the request. Have u read Director Cheung's article published the day after the incident (remarks: Director Cheung is one of the Kitchee parent), he did mentioned that some Kitchee parents taped the incident, and he wrote 'We put it on YouTube'. So there is a good reason why ESF CEO approached them for the removal.
But when you think again, the video clips published on youtube was obviously not a positive approach to start with, as no video clips ever published on youtube which will result in cyber-bullying, then ESF CEO wouldn't have requested once and again the Kitchee club to remove it, and led to the result of issuing lawyer's letter.....Anyway, hope all this conflict will be resolved.


All in all, we all care and wish the victim will recover soon, and any appropriate disciplinary actions will be resulted, but we should put cyber bullying to an end. We always must teach our kids the right values.

OKmom

回復 OKmom 的帖子

The ESF CEO did state in the letter that 'all of the adults involved in physical sporting activities, managers, coaches, referees, spectators and parents, have a responsibility to teach children fair and responsible sporting behaviour and ESL is committed to the highest standards in that respect.  Appropriate action will be taken to deal with this incident...', so appropriate action will be taken to the adults (coach, boy's parents and whoever) not able to meet this standard, she did not bias anyone, right?  If you ask whether appropriate actions (disciplinary actions, apologies, and compensations) are yet done or in progress or not, leave it to the parties involved.

no-bully

If ESF managed the issue properly in the very beginning, it would not be the spotlight of media. If this issue is not worthy of public concerns, it won't cause so much public discussion.

Like kidnaping incidents, it is not uncommon issue but it causes strong public reactions recently. You may say that the parents are over-reacting, but that's life in HK, whether you like it or not.

easydad

回復 OKmom 的帖子

If someone asked me to quit something I never did nicely, I would just say "I did not do it".  This could have avoided all the unnecessary and wrongly sent letters that escalated the whole problem.

Of coz, I did read the remarks of the original post.  There are lots of parents in this game.  Are you saying it is appropriate for ESF to just generalize and causally pick a few more involved parents/parties on spot and assumed they did the upload?  Should we also generalize and assume all ESF kids are the same?  I honestly cannot see the logic behind.

The first step to stop the matter from getting worse or stop "internet bullying" is a sincere apology.  This need not be done in public.  A word from victim's parents/organisation can smoothen all out.

OKmom

easydad 發表於 12-3-17 17:14
回復 OKmom 的帖子

If someone asked me to quit something I never did nicely, I would just say "I did ...

I don't get what you mean by 'If someone asked me to quit something I never did nicely, I would just say "I did not do it".  This could have avoided all the unnecessary and wrongly sent letters that escalated the whole problem.'

Anyway, why did you say ESF generalize and pick a few parents for uploading the video? ESF CEO said she just asked lawyer to write to Kitchee club to press the request and also to one parent (who is Director Cheung as he did write in his article 'we' posted the youtube video, 'we' means he is one of them, otherwise he would have used 'they', right?). So I don't think ESF just casually picked some parents.....


ESF CEO did sent letters to victim's parents and kitchee club to express regrets. But if you are after the boy and boy's parents' apologies, they are responsible for it, they are the ones to do it in person, right??

easydad

Verify and then do.  Think before action.  This is what I expect from a school or any adult.

Expressing "regret" and the way the incident was phrased in the letter is interesting to say the least.  The school has succeeded in making the lesson very hard for the kid she claimed to protect.  Whatever reasoning the school has, pls look at the result.

OKmom

If everyone really did think twice before act, the boy wouldn't have kicked, the videos wouldn't have been posted, then harm would have been minimized. So everyone must bear this in mind.

ESF CEO expressed her regrets are stressed several times in the letter, please refer to it.

Nowdays, there is a trend/practice that any incidents happened are to be posted on youtube, people would then try to dig out everything from it, out of curiosity?  
In this incident, for example, when a boy made a serious mistake and the incident has been posted on youtube, so make people think that then every details has to be laid out in public, is it really necessary or appropriate? Or is this really a positive way to help teaching a boy?? The parties involved should be the ones who are subjected to these details, not us, right? Any disciplinary actions, apologies and compensations are within them, not within us (the outsiders).

bobbycheung

OKmom 發表於 12-3-17 14:03
回復 OKmom 的帖子

The ESF CEO did state in the letter that 'all of the adults involved in physical  ...

If you ask whether appropriate actions (disciplinary actions, apologies, and compensations) are yet done or in progress or not, leave it to the parties involved

If everything should be left to the parties involved, the CEO didn't even have to write the letter to all the parents (which include the parents of ESF schools, Discovery College, Renaissance College and Kindergartens).  She wrote because she thinks that this matter concerns a lot of people other than the parties involved.  People are concerned whether and what action have been and will be taken by the ESF management and, if so, when?   Appropriate action does not mean any action that will be deemed appropriate by the ESF management.   It will be judged in the eyes of the parents and the general public as ESF is a school and a lot of people are entrusting their kids to them.  People are relying on them to teach their kids the right value and conduct and people are expecting them to set a good example.

By the way, you still haven't answered the first 2 questions raised by the 10 year old boy concerning the inaction of the coach.  Could you think of a reason to explain away his failure or refusal to take any action?   If the coach was clearly wrong, why no action has been taken by the ESF management against this coach after so many days?  The HK Development League has long finished his investigation and released its findings.  How much longer will the ESF management need to look into the matter?   A year?

OKmom

回復 bobbycheung 的帖子

In the letter, ESF CEO did clearly express her deep regrets, admitted the boy made a serious mistake and stressed that appropriate and disciplinary actions will be taken, she promised she would follow up the incident.  The ESF CEO has made this clear to the parents. Each school must have guidelines of disciplinary actions according to the kind of mistakes a kid made, so the boy will be punished in some way, the boy's and his parents apologies is a must. But she does not really have to lay out all details here, right?? What kind of disciplinary actions, apologies, and compensation the involved parties have made, why we have to know??
I don't know what are the details about the disciplinary action suggested by the league after the investigation, or have ESF carried out this disciplinary action, do you know?? Again, there must be some guidlines in the league for what kind of appropriate disciplinary actions are resulted. But there must be disciplinary actions, right? Why you have to be informed the details and monitor the progress and the judger too??

easydad

If everyone really did think twice before act, the boy wouldn't have kicked, the videos wouldn't have been posted, then harm would have been minimized. So everyone must bear this in mind.
_________________________________________________

Well... from what I see, only one side did not think twice and pushed the whole matter to a dead corner.

Perhaps my english is terrible, the letter did mention "regret" a few times but I regret to say I sense no sincerity in it.  I still failed to understand why lawyers were involved except to try to intimidate.  Without all these great handling, the case would not have been reported to police.  If the kid ended up being prosecuted, he should know who to thank.  

bobbycheung

OKmom 發表於 12-3-17 22:06
回復 bobbycheung 的帖子

In the letter, ESF CEO did clearly express her deep regrets, admitted the  ...

The disciplinary action to be given to the ESF boy is not of my prime concern.  He is facing a police investigation already.  On the other hand, I am interested to know what action will be taken against the coach.  I have asked you more than once if you could come up with a reason for the coach inaction during the match.  Can you?  Did the CEO admit that the coach made a mistake?  No!  So what has stopped her from coming to a conclusion after so many days?  How much longer will it take for her to make a finding?  I wish to know because the CEO said in her letter that "all of the adults involved in physical sporting activities have a responsibility to teach children fair and responsible sporting behaviour and ESL is committed to the highest standards in that respect".   I want to know if the CEO is just paying lip service to what she said in the letter.  It's OK if you don't wish to know and I admire your complete trust placed on the CEO (as the ESF boy did with the coach).  But many people would like to know especially those who have kids joining ESL to do sports. There are also other teams who might play against ESL in the future.  If ESL would not admit that its coach made a mistake and actual steps will be taken to ensure such an incident won't happen again, would you allow your kids to play football with them?  

OKmom

I also don't understand why the video clip should be posted on youtube at the very beginning, perphaps they didn't realize how cyber bullying will do a lot of harms.  ESF CEO has this concern and had been asking kitchee since Sunday night for the removal, but the poster of the youtube still did not close down the video clip, and one more clip is shown by Tuesday morning. As you see,  the cyber-bullying deteriorate rapidly, that's why ESF CEO tried to stop cyber bullying by a firmer and prompt approach and asked their lawyer to write letter to stress her concern and request for a close-up, what is wrong with it?? Well, it is fair if the parents of the injured boy reported to the police if they think the boy should be prosecuted for his misbehaviour. But I don't think it is justified if they did it just because of ESF issuing lawyer's letter requesting a video close-up, if they are against this request, they should direct it to the ESF not the boy.....

bobbycheung

OKmom 發表於 12-3-17 22:44
I also don't understand why the video clip should be posted on youtube at the very beginning, perpha ...

I guess the uploader posted the film clip for at least 3 reasons.  Firstly, he wanted to show how bad and horrible the fouls and the kick were.  Secondly, he wanted to show the misbehaviour and inaction of the ESF coach.  Thirdly, he wanted to show the public really what happned.  Let's imagine that right after the kick, the ESF coach had come running out into the pitch and tried to look at the Kitchee boy's injury.   Let's imagine that the coach had apologised to the Kitchee boy and his coach and parents immediately and got the ESF boy to do the same.  If they had done that, would the viewer of the film clip have been so angry?   I don't think so.  But what actually happened was that the coach did nothing other than shouting at the parents asking them to get off the pitch.

OKmom

回復 bobbycheung 的帖子

Please read again my post, I did answer you question, I don't mind to elaborate here:
ESF did mention that all adults should take their responsibilities to ensure the kid's fair play, so coach and the boy's parents or perphaps referee or whoever (behind the video), if they fail to do so, they will face the actions.
As I don't know what are the details (what and who) about the disciplinary action suggested by the league after the investigation, or have ESF carried out their disciplinary action, do you know?? Again, there must be some guidlines in the league for what kind of appropriate disciplinary actions are resulted, the league are unbiased here, right?. But there must be some sort of disciplinary actions, right? We don't have to be informed the details and monitor the progress and be the judger too.


As the ESF CEO stated in the letter that 'We accept the disciplinary action that the Hong Kong Development League Association has taken. ' I trust that the ESF has to follow the disciplinary action suggested by the the Hong Kong Development League Association, who should be the one to monitor.

Oh, I have been spending a long time expressing my view in here......very tired. But I'm glad everyone is expressing his/her views peacefully

OKmom

回復 bobbycheung 的帖子

If the poster published the video clip wants to seek for justice, he must have overlooked it would uneventually result in cyber bullying will do a lot of harms, no one wish to see. There is a more positive way make use of the video clip, show it to ESF, the league and now the police for investigation, everyone wants to seek for justice, but better try the positive approach first.

I think I have to rest now.....Goodnight...

bobbycheung

OKmom 發表於 12-3-17 23:12
回復 bobbycheung 的帖子

Please read again my post, I did answer you question, I don't mind to elabo ...

Sorry for making you tired, but let me try for the last time.  My question is this.  Can you explain or come up with a reason why the ESF coach decided to take no immediate action during that match after seeing his players making all those terrible fouls on the Kitchee boys?  In a normal match, if players are playing too roughly and aggressively against the other team or they are making bad fouls to the other team, the coach is expected (and indeed he has a duty) to talk to his players immediately and ask them to calm down etc.  Obviously the ESF coach didn't do this (and in fact he didn't even act after seeing the ESF boy kicking another player).  Why?

Your answer to my question is that "ESF did mention that all adults (including the coach) should take their responsibilities to ensure the kid's fair play and if any of them fail to do so, they will face the actions.".  Does this explain the coach's action or inaction during that match?  No, I don't think so.

My point is that if no one (including you) could possibly be able to come up with a reasonable explanation to justify the ESF coach's action or inaction in that match, the ESF coach was clearly wrong.  If he was clearly wrong, then why the CEO still has not found him guilty after so many days?  To me and many others, the coach's mistake is at least as obvious as the ESF boy's mistakes and they are both equally serious.  Please don't tell me that we don't have to know about ESF's decision because I have already explained to you why I and many others wish to know.

See you in the morning.

no-bully

Before I watched the clips, I thought this was a minor incident which happened often in a football match. But after finished watching the whole clips, my friends and I considered that this was outrageous.

ESF parents have concerns whether this is a systematic issue, e.g., how ESF teaches students about sportmanship and how ESF teaches students to respect individuals.

Well, I respect someone's view that the video clips should not be posted.  But many others see the values in knowing what have actually happened. Afterall, there are many such kinds of video clips uploaded on the public forum. To name a few, mainland girl eating in MTR, 小學雞, ...   Right or wrong?

OKmom

回復 bobbycheung 的帖子

I didn't mean you made me tired in my previous post, I meant I had been spending too much time expressing my views in this topic here.

Let me try my best to answer your question. This is my interpretation of the coach's reaction and what sort of actions he will face. The coach is biased to this team, and so he neglected the fouls made by his team, he tried to keep the game running regardless of these fouls, he did not demonstrate his responsibilities to teach children fair and responsible sporting behaviour. As a conclusion, the coach is not up to ESL standard, he will face an action. ESL might have already issued a warning letter to the coach, and he will be fired if he make same mistake in the future. Or perphaps the coach has lost his job already for this incident.
Regarding exact details of actions made by the ESF CEO, do we have to know the details? As stated in her letter, I'm sure she must take appropriate action to deal with incident, and she promised that ESL is committed  to the highest standards in that respect, in other words, they will avoid this sort of thing to happen in the future, right? Is this a promise/relief to parents who have concerns about the standard in football club in the future?

Anyway, this is my last reply to you because I really have been spending too much time in expressing my views in this topic, and I feel I had made a very thorough sharing of my views already, I have to move on to something else.....

But please feel free to express yours.