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關於學鋼琴價錢 [複製鏈接]

Rank: 4


953
861#
發表於 05-12-12 14:38 |只看該作者

Re: 琴譜上的TEMPO

AndyRain, vvmakyy & syliujoe

          
有我們支持你, 你會感動到流淚嗎? 對於我們遲來的支持實感抱歉.
==> 俾d反應你先~~ 唔係真係對唔住你地呀, 哈哈

其實學術交流, 久不久都會有花火, 呢d情況, 係大學時都出現過唔少, even 到我畢左業, 出黎教人同perform, 好多時, 一個player 同另一個player 都會係樂曲既處理上有爭議

我自己抱持一個態度, 有唔同意見, 唔會去批評 or 反駁, 唔係因為覺得對方講既野岩晒, 而係就算一個人點叻, 總會有唔知既野, 係學習上, 應該保持開放既態度, 就算有時見對一d player 提供既information, 佢地提出既理據, 係根據佢地既揣測, 我都會抱treassure既 態度, 因為可以提出一d information, 就算係無用or 斷估既, 起碼呢d information 可以 stimulate 進一步既research

AndyRain
你仔仔好似剛剛上左完堂, 好似係sat ?? 學成點呢??

Rank: 4


953
862#
發表於 05-12-12 15:17 |只看該作者

Re: 你又冇錯o既...

ming2
話時話,我都好懷疑點解有d人話可以十堂八堂就學完thoery,仲係得九個字一堂咋喎?!成年人就或者可以姐...小朋友(小學生)都得??係咪真係好似你所講淨係學做數咁咋??會唔會真係明架??
我覺得係只係教做數囉, 即係好似教佢interval, 就數semitones etc.. 我做果個學生, 我唔敢講我會係2堂45min 裡面明晒囉

Rank: 5Rank: 5

醒目開學勳章


2960
863#
發表於 05-12-12 15:19 |只看該作者

Re: 琴譜上的TEMPO

kcarol

我想peaceful的氣氛會較適會這裏. 希望你無唔開心就好了.

我個仔已經上了兩堂啦, 好彩miss話佢上次練琴都ok, 都知道佢有練琴. 全夠我bin bin有力. 暫時都覺得亞仔都依然好服個新miss, 雖然佢首march仲有好多野俾miss執, 但佢都樂意接受.  

練琴方面, 都係有我同佢一齊練就好有心機.  自己練就懶懶散散啦.  不過都keep到一星期有4日會自己話練琴.  尋晚個死靚仔識得咁我

Rank: 1


12
864#
發表於 05-12-12 15:20 |只看該作者

Re: 琴譜上的TEMPO

你有無聽過一句說話叫好心做壞事,乜野叫誤人子弟?

""出於善意的錯, 我覺得沒有問題""

家長當然可以覺得無問題,但對一個老師絕對來說不是。

作為一個老師當你自已對自已唔嚴格的時候

害慘的是學生。點解? 你自已都話,你都分唔到我地邊個岩邊個錯。

你睇得唔舒服我幫唔到你,係我眼裡面只有對定錯。

""你從來有沒有免費去教其他人呀?""

好老實說我絕對唔會去""教""任何人,
我只係一個睇過幾本書聽過幾隻CD既讀書人

如果你要用義工的比喻的話我覺得而家係有人自已明明發緊燒都
仲要做義工去醫院探阿婆,經果當然係搞到人地都病上加病

""只有你自己說你自己好叻, 但對於我來說我一點都不覺得你叻,""

多謝讚賞,你睇清楚我有邊一句寫過有關我自已既事? 我每一篇每一隻字都係講緊音樂

""只有你自己說你自己好叻, 但對於我來說我一點都不覺得你叻, 因為我根本都唔知你地講緊d mug, 但就只是覺得你很專橫, 本來這樣大家都傾得開開心心, 但你的出現就令到這裏的氣氛變得很彊. 我們在此除了學野外, 還有想鬆一鬆的, 大家傾下計, 唔想有人下下扮晒大佬咁.""

說穿左又係果幾隻大字:我地覺得你唔岩聽,唔該""過主"" 你諗下如果我要扮哂大佬我玩哂的話我會唔會淨係reply呢一個topic?

""唔係唔想有人去講一d正確的資料, 但可否有禮貌點, 客氣點呢??? ""

唔可以,如果係係一個飲食板見到有人日日叫人yip五兩肉要加四五tablespoon糖炒菜要落味精你會點?

""看來你本身就是與kcarol有仇, 衝著她而來的. 想人服你, 首先請你具備一些令人服你的條件吧.""

錯到極,我睇唔過眼呢度有幾個人成日係度亂up24

仲有我無需要人服我,因為我根本唔依賴群眾,討論區根本就係一個小圈子的地方,我比人圍係理所當然既事。我既目的只有一個,說出對的事情。

Rank: 4


953
865#
發表於 05-12-12 15:33 |只看該作者

Re: 你又冇錯o既...

ming2
Kcarol
我買pleyel 個學生又係出左黎做野架啦…所以月供六七百都算抵架…佢本來都想買sauter架…不過對佢黎講太貴啦..佢供唔起喎….
始終有時都係一分錢一分貨0既…

六七百係好抵架啦, 買唔起無計既, 有時呢d時也命也

個家長係咪好insist要2月考我就唔知,我淨係知係因為個琴老師想下年三月幫佢報六級,所以咪一定要2月考到個thoery lor…

甘祝佢好運, 佢好似行鋼線甘, 唔危果樣都唔去做

連sonatina and children pieces都未彈過就想叫個小朋友去考八級?!咁咪彈得好少野lor??

係好少好少, bach 既1st lesson, book 1都未彈過, 唔好講beethoven 啦, 連sonatina 都未接觸過, 就叫佢去彈beethoven sonata, 好似驚佢死唔去甘; 我問個女女既mummy, 佢話個女之前幾年, 年年練考試歌, ie 每年彈3首歌, 仲要係由gd.2 開始已經係甘........

咁又未必0既,…我以前有d學生好勤力做功課架…一星期兩堂,佢地真係可以交足功課架…當然個兩個係相隔三日左右啦…要做0既,一日內都可以做得晒啦…要唔做,俾三個星期都唔會完成俾你架啦…right??
[quote]
甘肯做果d就梗係好學生, 乖仔乖女, 要錫到佢""火農""啦, 如果我d學生係甘, 我就唔駛甘勞氣啦, 佢地既爸媽就唔駛疲勞轟炸我啦

[quote]
你地咪咁衰啦…ha..ha..或者你朋友夠味力可以吸引到d學生0既親朋戚友,又或者會同學生(of course adult la)拍拖呢?!..he..h.e

甘個adult student 麥知道晒個女仔搵幾錢!?!? 甘唔係好得喎, 想有d私己錢都唔得, 哈哈哈哈


係呀..我都好唔明,點解宜家d人咁急想快d考完個八級??..學你話齋,小六考完八級琴(piano),對升中幫助都不大啦…宜家好多學校都好似當識彈琴係一件必須品咁…

係架, 除非係好outstanding, 甘就間間學校都吹佢唔脹啦

Rank: 4


953
866#
發表於 05-12-12 15:41 |只看該作者

Re: 琴譜上的TEMPO

AndyRain

放心啦, 我唔會因為網上面一個無關重要既人唔開心既, 而且我知我既知識係由正途得番黎既, 可能知道唔夠多, 唔夠全面, 但起碼理性交流我仲識囉

好彩miss話佢上次練琴都ok, 都知道佢有練琴. 全夠我bin bin有力.

睇黎你屋企真係好需要紅藥水...  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:

執歌呢個問題, 真係執極都有, 永無執完既一日, 最緊要唔好覺得老師執佢錯/唔夠好既地方, 佢就灰心, 甘就得架啦

小朋友練琴, 真係有父母陪好好多架, 我自己有個學生, 係老人精, 人仔細細, 但真係好老積, 好獨立既, 但佢同其他小朋友一樣, 阿媽果日係度, 佢會特別專心上堂, 阿媽有陪佢練琴果個禮拜, 佢會pass 晒全部歌俾你睇, 仲要係無得彈, 好到無得頂, 所以就算點忙, 唔日日陪阿仔, 都一個星期搵3/4日睇下佢, 佢會落力d架

呃印仔呢家野, 我會隻眼開, 隻眼閉, 知佢有心機做既, 就算無預期中甘好, 我都會照俾, 當係encourage 一種好既behaviour, 是是但但既, 我會倒扣我d 學生既sticker 架

Rank: 4


953
867#
發表於 05-12-12 17:08 |只看該作者

可以當作參考

Contrapunctus
見到你甘理所當然, 仲話睇唔過呢度有幾個人亂up 24, 甘希望你真係可以理性交流, 唔係只係認為自己講既係岩晒既。

我所知既都係從學習上得黎既, 我唔係好認同你話拋書包呢d講法, 至少要拋既都要睇過讀過先有得拋。而且我一路唔criticize 你既野, 唔係因為覺得你岩, 只係唔需要甘樣做而令氣氛甘僵

下面係搵到一d 有關baroque performance practice 既info

Wikipedia Free Encyclopedia
1. In the baroque period, it was common for performers to improvise ornamentation on a given melodic line. A singer performing a da capo aria, for instance, would sing the melody relatively unornamented the first time, but decorate it with additional flourishes the second time.

2. Performance practice refers to details of performance technique which were used in performances within historical styles periods, as well as they can be ascertained.

3. According to Margaret Bent (1998), Early music notation, "is under-prescriptive by our standards; when translated into modern form it acquires a prescriptive weight that overspecifies and distorts its original openness."

Homo ludens musicus
4. Baroque composers basically wrote down a skeleton of the music, and trusted the craftsmanship of the performers for all the rest

5. Baroque music really cries for being filled out, ornamented, changed according to the mood of the performer and to the atmosphere that builds up in the concert room.

Ron Anderson, Ph.D. SFA Professor of Music, Chair
6. a.  Terms suggest as much about expression as pace (thus allegro means "cheerful" not fast)
b.  Should in general maintain consistent tempo throughout section with major changes coming at major sectional divisions.
c.  Is appropriate to ritard at major structural cadences though not at every cadence.
d.  The term "adagio" at the end of a piece of music may suggest that the music become gradually slower rather than suddenly slower.
e.  Baroque music should always dance and one should strive for this feeling at whatever tempo is used.

Martha Beth Lewis, Ph.D.
7. Often only the first one is printed; the performer is expected to ornament repetitions of the motif (or fragment) in the same way even if they are not marked. This runs contrary to the modern idea of playing only what is on the printed page....The baroque tradition is therefore one of improvisation

8. Baroque music generally has no tempo indications. For those pieces that do, bear in mind two things. (1) Tempi were somewhat slower in the baroque than for a modern performance. Thus a presto by Scarlatti is allegro or perhaps vivace today; at a presto tempo, this music played on the harpsichord would sound like someone rattling a can of nails; played on the modern piano it would be even less successful. (2) Baroque tempo indications, when present, tend to be more of a style or character indication, rather than a speed recommendation. Sometimes the time signature does indicat speed. For example something in cut time (a C with a slash through it, which my computer won't let me do) indicated that the half-note got the beat.

9. Editions are important. I prefer an Urtext. For an inexpensive edition, try Kalmus (edited by Hans Bischoff) and paint out all the f, p, cres., descres., tempo designations, staccato dots, accents, and other markings. If what is printed in your edition "seems" incorrect, trust your intuition and paint it out.

Hylton, J.B. (1995) Comprehensive Choral Music Education Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice-Hall, Inc., 171-176
10. The tradition of requiring full participation by the performer in decisions concerning tempo, articulation, ornamentation, and other matters continued from the Renaissance into the Baroque era. Keyboard players presented with a figured bass line were expected to "realize" it, filling in chords, adding ornaments, and otherwise embellishing their playing. Singers, particularly soloists, were expected to improvise ornamentation and elaboration for a melody found in the score.

http://www.toshare.info/en/Tempos.htm
11. In some cases (quite often up to the end of the Baroque period), conventions governing musical composition were so strong that no tempo had to be indicated.

12. The association of tempo with genre means that genres can be used to imply tempos;

13. There is also a set of terms that are used to designate a change of tempo:

Accelerando - speeding up (abbreviation: accel.)
Meno Mosso - less movement or slower
Pi

Rank: 1


12
868#
發表於 05-12-12 18:54 |只看該作者

Re: 可以當作參考

My job is done here. I had my share of fun during the weekend in this domain of mediocrity.

Please note that wikipedia is not an accpetable source in the academic world as anyone can create and modify the entries so it's practically uesless since no one knows if the content is really true or not. And also qouting people's words without referring what they were talking about beforehead and after is also not an acceptable practice.


8595
869#
發表於 05-12-12 18:56 |只看該作者

Re: 琴譜上的TEMPO

提示: 作者被禁止或刪除 內容自動屏蔽
簽名被屏蔽

Rank: 4


953
870#
發表於 05-12-12 20:22 |只看該作者

Re: 可以當作參考

Contrapunctus
thanks for sharing. 我有留意wikipedia係可以俾人自由去edit 既, 所以我搵多左幾個sources. 可以互相引證既。

至於quotation 方面, 我係盡量成段cut 落去既, 前後既多數都係無關重要, or 講緊其他野既, 又或者係講緊同一樣野, 所以我cut 左最貼題果句落黎

有無用, 我諗見人見智, 岩同唔岩, 甘麥用你果句囉--去求証囉

Rank: 3Rank: 3


256
871#
發表於 05-12-13 09:37 |只看該作者

Re: 可以當作參考

Dear Contrapunctus,

Don't feel frustrated.  It is a fact of life that you can't get too serious with some people.  I do however find the exchanges between you and Kcarol interesting.  Thanks for your contributions.

Regards,
Warrrren

Rank: 2


32
872#
發表於 05-12-13 12:33 |只看該作者

Re: 琴譜上的TEMPO

其實有好d野對一般家長或者冇音樂底既朋友來說, 可能冇乜大不了. 但係正如contrapunctus所講, 有好多看似唔緊要既concepts, 係老師唔應該講錯既. 例如我睇到之前ornamentation, baroque music marking, tempo rubato等等既討論, 對於有老師唔可以清楚解說, 我都為睇左既家長同學生擔心. 一個好老師除左要有心外, 重有好多野都絕對唔可以馬虎.

就我個人而言, 我寧可有人用較嚴肅既態度對我講真確既資訊, 總好過學到"好聽"但又不大準確既野.
ming2 寫道:
請容我在此說幾句吧….…
kcarol, contrapuntus兩個所講0既我都明白,亦有所聽聞,只係我覺得kcarol所用0既字眼/方式,係會令家長(一個非正式學音樂)0既一方容易明白佢想解釋0既野(而且我唔覺佢有咩大錯呀?!)…或者未必如contrapuntus所講咁深入,但我覺得最緊要係解釋完之後,人地會明白你想表達0既野,咁咪得lor…如果下下都用晒好多專有詞彙,人地聽完都唔知你講緊乜,咁又有咩用呢?!....做人(唔係淨係話老師),最緊要係大家可以互相溝通到,明白get到個意思咪得lor…點解要下下都要人地用一d好專有0既term去解釋先得架?!...有咩覺得同自己所知0既有出入咪心平氣和咁提出lor…就如之前kcarol, RMA同我對elbow角度0既問題,大家都有唔同0既意見,大家都會心平氣和咁講出自己所知0既野…又何須咁勞氣呢?!

嗱…唔好插我呀… ..我自問冇各位讀得書多…我只係盡量將我所知所識0既同各位媽咪分享下架咋….我從來都冇用一d好權威0既口吻教大家野架…手/筆下留情呀!!!
      

Rank: 4


953
873#
發表於 05-12-13 17:57 |只看該作者

Re: 琴譜上的TEMPO

NM
我會甘睇, 如果係一d 無謂既野拗, eg ornamentation, contrapuntus 講既係叫法, 我講既係ornaments 係improvised 既, 係做法, 為呢類野拗, 根本就係得個拗字

而且我好insist 睇既同寫既都應該係客觀, 自己睇左, 得出黎既understanding 唔一定=/=人地講緊既野, 每一個人既understanding 都有一定既出入, 寫既盡可能令睇既明白

睇到有野同自己既knowledge 有出入, 唔需要"插"囉, 大家都係有文化既, 應該可以唔用"插", 用一般既文字都可以做到和平交流, 唔係話有野睇唔順眼就要bilibala, 呢d 係manner


[quote]
NM 寫道:
其實有好d野對一般家長或者冇音樂底既朋友來說, 可能冇乜大不了. 但係正如contrapunctus所講, 有好多看似唔緊要既concepts, 係老師唔應該講錯既. 例如我睇到之前ornamentation, baroque music marking, tempo rubato等等既討論, 對於有老師唔可以清楚解說, 我都為睇左既家長同學生擔心. 一個好老師除左要有心外, 重有好多野都絕對唔可以馬虎.

就我個人而言, 我寧可有人用較嚴肅既態度對我講真確既資訊, 總好過學到"好聽"但又不大準確既野.[quote]

Rank: 2


32
874#
發表於 05-12-13 19:43 |只看該作者

Re: 琴譜上的TEMPO

Um.. 照禁睇, 你仍然唔了解ornamentation同improvisation之間既subtlety. 一般人以為係一樣都可以按受, 但係如果出自一個有經驗既老師/玩音樂既人既口, 實在有點那個. 所以有時我都好明白其他人既感受.

再講, 我亦唔覺得contrapunctus既意見主觀 - 又或者咁講, 你既意見亦唔見得比佢既客觀and vice versa. 相反, 當有人提出同自己所知既有出入, 應該再加思考同求證, 我相信依d係professionalism. 其實音樂根本係一樣冇可能好general去講既野. 不過唔緊要啦, 有d野係要時間同經驗浸出黎. 只要不斷學習, 一定會有進步. 努力!


kcarol 寫道:
NM
我會甘睇, 如果係一d 無謂既野拗, eg ornamentation, contrapuntus 講既係叫法, 我講既係ornaments 係improvised 既, 係做法, 為呢類野拗, 根本就係得個拗字

而且我好insist 睇既同寫既都應該係客觀, 自己睇左, 得出黎既understanding 唔一定=/=人地講緊既野, 每一個人既understanding 都有一定既出入, 寫既盡可能令睇既明白

睇到有野同自己既knowledge 有出入, 唔需要"插"囉, 大家都係有文化既, 應該可以唔用"插", 用一般既文字都可以做到和平交流, 唔係話有野睇唔順眼就要bilibala, 呢d 係manner


[quote]
NM 寫道:
其實有好d野對一般家長或者冇音樂底既朋友來說, 可能冇乜大不了. 但係正如contrapunctus所講, 有好多看似唔緊要既concepts, 係老師唔應該講錯既. 例如我睇到之前ornamentation, baroque music marking, tempo rubato等等既討論, 對於有老師唔可以清楚解說, 我都為睇左既家長同學生擔心. 一個好老師除左要有心外, 重有好多野都絕對唔可以馬虎.

就我個人而言, 我寧可有人用較嚴肅既態度對我講真確既資訊, 總好過學到"好聽"但又不大準確既野.[quote]

Rank: 4


953
875#
發表於 05-12-13 20:46 |只看該作者

Re: 琴譜上的TEMPO

NM
improvisation 同ornamentation 係有少少分別, 我可能會講得精簡少少, ornamentation係improvised 一d embellishment 去出黎enhance melody beauty, 但係所有呢d附加既野都要係base on一d rules 先會去fit 某一d style 既; improvisation 係好單純即興創作, 唔知你會唔會認同 ornamentaion 係kind of improvisation, 有d人會唔加, 有d人會加多d, 加既又會好多花款

in short, 無論係contrapuntus or 我提出既野, 我都唔認同單純既criticize, 有關 style/interpretation/or whatever, 係有其他引証, 都criticize 既, 甘就好似盲目左少少

大家都係想進步, 無需要甘勞嘈

Rank: 2


32
876#
發表於 05-12-13 22:52 |只看該作者

Re: 琴譜上的TEMPO

其實以我所知, ornamentation同improvisation既分別係好大. 當然, 正如contrapunctus已經講過, baroque improvisation係個performer响條bassline上面玩. 玩之中當然係可以有ornaments. 但係咁並唔等於學你所講既. 又或者咁問: baroque music 上既ornaments(notated 與否), 係唔係improvisation既一個產物? 所以如果你睇番你話"係baroque 有好多improvisation 出現, 呢d主要係集中ornaments"既時候, 其實又真係幾misleading.

可能因為有時答得單純, 先至會惹黎單純既criticisim. 正如我都講左, 有好多野冇可能好general咁答(例如"但係所有呢d附加既野都要係base on一d rules 先會去fit 某一d style 既"). 如果讀者不斷追問下都得唔到specific既答案, 相信大家都唔好受.

不過我絕對唔同意"improvisation 係好單純即興創作"依點. 無論如何, 都係果句.. 有問題最好都係問番老師.

kcarol 寫道:
NM
improvisation 同ornamentation 係有少少分別, 我可能會講得精簡少少, ornamentation係improvised 一d embellishment 去出黎enhance melody beauty, 但係所有呢d附加既野都要係base on一d rules 先會去fit 某一d style 既; improvisation 係好單純即興創作, 唔知你會唔會認同 ornamentaion 係kind of improvisation, 有d人會唔加, 有d人會加多d, 加既又會好多花款

in short, 無論係contrapuntus or 我提出既野, 我都唔認同單純既criticize, 有關 style/interpretation/or whatever, 係有其他引証, 都criticize 既, 甘就好似盲目左少少

大家都係想進步, 無需要甘勞嘈

Rank: 4


953
877#
發表於 05-12-14 00:00 |只看該作者

Re: 純討論

NM
單純既討論, 關於early music improvisation & ornamentation

我會對以上幾隻字既definition 好猶豫, 以我所read 過既article/thesis etc. 有人會話ornamentation 係process of decorating a melody with discretion of performer; 係呢個基礎上, ornamentation 變左係improvisation 既一種, 只不過呢個improvisation 係好focus 係melodic interest 上面; 但係話佢完完全全係improvisation 又好難甘講, free improvisation 應該係一個free performance /extemporization at the spot; 好睇點樣去define "improvisation"。

至於"baroque improvisation係個performer

Rank: 2


32
878#
發表於 05-12-14 00:41 |只看該作者

Re: 純討論

咪又係咁囉.. 既然你依家都識得話improvisation既definition可以咁唔同(當然唔係"focus 係melodic interest 上面"咁簡單), 當初又點解話佢係"單純即興創作"呢? 所以咪又愈講愈亂.

Improvisation同ornamentation基本上係兩門好高深既學問, 冇乜可能作單純既討論.. at least 我冇咁既功力啦.

[quote]
kcarol 寫道:
NM
單純既討論, 關於early music improvisation & ornamentation

我會對以上幾隻字既definition 好猶豫, 以我所read 過既article/thesis etc. 有人會話ornamentation 係process of decorating a melody with discretion of performer; 係呢個基礎上, ornamentation 變左係improvisation 既一種, 只不過呢個improvisation 係好focus 係melodic interest 上面; 但係話佢完完全全係improvisation 又好難甘講, free improvisation 應該係一個free performance /extemporization at the spot; 好睇點樣去define "improvisation"。

至於"baroque improvisation係個performer

Rank: 1


12
879#
發表於 05-12-14 01:22 |只看該作者

Re: 可以當作參考

Well it's been my pleasure to entertain anyone who found it amusing. Don't feel bad for me. For the "fun" remark I mean it literally. It's been fun just to break away from my monotonous routine occasionally to stir up a beehive.

Rank: 4


953
880#
發表於 05-12-14 09:52 |只看該作者

Re: 純討論

NM
咪又係咁囉.. 既然你依家都識得話improvisation既definition可以咁唔同(當然唔係"focus 係melodic interest 上面"咁簡單), 當初又點解話佢係"單純即興創作"呢? 所以咪又愈講愈亂.

我諗每一個terms 都有佢最fundamental 既解釋, 係呢個之上再有好多好多細節既conditions, 單就一個"perfect cadence", 我都聽過起碼有3個唔同既解釋; 或者甘樣做comparison 好少少, 如果係italian 既free ornamentation 會唔會improvisation 既成份重d呢??

Improvisation同ornamentation基本上係兩門好高深既學問, 冇乜可能作單純既討論.. at least 我冇咁既功力啦.

我都無甘既功力, 哈哈
但係可以stimulate 甘多唔同人既睇法, 都可以集思廣益
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