ESF 英基資助

ANChan59

討論形式，論點熟口熟面，好快又失控，跟住有人又俾人Ban。

希望我睇錯！

Maoku

原帖由 FattyDaddy 於 12-11-04 發表
本帖最後由 FattyDaddy 於 12-11-4 01:41 編輯

Very sensible. So many people are out of envy. If something is good to all, why should not we ask to have more people to be benefited. Unfortunately so many people just think from other way to opt for an inferior treatment to all people for the so called fairness.

shadeslayer

sschiu  Some clarifications here: the amount of subsidies received by each DSS and ESF primary student PER YEAR are around HK$35K and HK$17K respectively, and for secondary HK$44K and HK$24K.  發表於 8 小時前

SS: thanks, good to know.  Does not change the arguments here though.

This topic was one of the more popular one recently and I did wish more people would express their viewpoint instead of being read-only.  Alas there were only a few participants.

I wish I realize the following earlier.  Well, better late than never.  The ESF subvention topic is fundamentally not appropriate for forum discussion because there is clearly those who receive financial benefits and those who don't.  The discussion cannot be objective from the very beginning and therefore destined to end without progress.  Lesson learn for me.

FattyDaddy

shadeslayer 發表於 12-11-4 23:05
The ESF subvention topic is fundamentally not appropriate for forum discussion because there is clearly those who receive financial benefits and those who don't ...

This is not really the problem. In real life there is no such thing as total equality, there will always be people who have and people who don't, it is a fact of life, but there are 2 ways (I call it a right way and a wrong way) to address inequality.

If A has something good and B has not, the positive way to bring equality is to give B the same, the negative way is to take it away from A. Sadly, many people in this part of the world subscribe to the negative way and that is the problem, instead of questioning why B does not have, they question why A has.

Hongkongers who have that attitude should be aware that in the wider scope of affairs, they are enjoying freedoms and privileges which 1.3 billion Chinese don't have, if these 1.3 billion people also adopt a negative attitude (in fact many of them already do), then Hongkongers are in for BIG trouble, because instead of asking the government to grant them the same freedoms and privileges, these 1.3 billion will ask the government to take the freedoms and privileges away from Hongkongers.

If you have learned anything from this discussion, I hope it is this.

FattyDaddy

> shadeslayer  Resources is not unlimited

True, but the government can distribute limited resources more evenly, in fact if resources are indeed distributed more evenly ESF will only get more money than now.

Last but not least, is the Hongkong government short of money?

bbdmami

If the argument is on fairness, I remember someone under another discussion thread mentioned that expats are tax payers too.   Plus all the HK local middle class who are also paying tax and sending their kids to ESF....
To argue about removing Gov't subsidy and having these tax payers pay higher tuition for their kids...I wonder who is being discriminated.

C_D_E

News coverage on SCMP for reference:

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-ko ... -may-rise-next-year

mrshoho

原帖由 manstap 於 12-11-08 發表
a good news to those who hve SOUR Grapes

Agree.

shadeslayer

There is actually an easy way to increase the funding to ESF and no government officials, lawmakers or fellow citizen can refuse: turn ESF to DSS schools.

FattyDaddy

shadeslayer 發表於 12-11-8 23:27
turn ESF to DSS schools ...

(1) As far as serving the Hongkong public is concerned, ESF schools are already like DSS schools, the student population are mostly local Hongkongers.

(2) If your issue is ESF having more freedom than DSS schools while they both receive government money, then fight for DSS schools to have the same freedom.

1 is a matter of fact, and 2 is a matter of attitude.

ANChan59

回復 FattyDaddy 的帖子

I agree with your point 2.
Some DSS can't increase the quota of IB stream, even surge demand from students and parents. I am not saying just like IS or ESF -100%, from 25% to 45% is good enough.

FattyDaddy

ANChan59 發表於 12-11-9 09:36
回復 FattyDaddy 的帖子

from 25% to 45% is good enough

Yes, individual DSS schools when given more freedom can decide on the percentage according to the students they are targeting, there will always be some families who prefer the traditional way of learning, in fact I have a friend who called back his children from UK to attend local schools in HK because he thought they were just wasting time and not learning anything useful over there. For families aiming for ESF and other IS, they will also have more choices available if DSS schools also offer a route to avoid traditional learning (at reasonable cost too), it will be a win-win situation.

The bottom line is, more freedom is better than less, more variety is better than less {:1_1:}

shadeslayer

原帖由 FattyDaddy 於 12-11-09 發表
本帖最後由 FattyDaddy 於 12-11-9 02:12 編輯

For (1) how can we say ESF serve HK residents like DSS when there is the obsolete rule of cat 1/2, which discriminate against 98% of Chinese in hong log who speak Cantonese and have access to local school system?

For (2) I think we discussed that before, you are asking all DSS to become ESF. Is that what HK need, bear in mind the local HK parents who want to send their kids to ESF is still a minority.  Is that practical?

shadeslayer

原帖由 ANChan59 於 12-11-09 發表
本帖最後由 ANChan59 於 12-11-9 10:44 編輯

回復 FattyDaddy 的帖子

ANChan,

You said some DSS cannot increase the IB places?  Is that a limit placed by EDB? What is that limit?

ANChan59

Yes, the general ruling is majority in local curriculum. Say DBS is limited to 60 seats initially, I guessed the new IB campus not ready, so the number limited to 60. Now the new building has been used for sometime, the new intake is still 60. I know the school applied for 100 seats for sometime.

Some schools are forced to screen students, not the double selection, just due to DSS ruling.

For HKUGA, originally planned for IB, but the ruling forced them to quit and only NSS at senior, but junior still stakes IB format or approach.

shadeslayer

原帖由 ANChan59 於 12-11-09 發表
Yes, the general ruling is majority in local curriculum. Say DBS is limited to 60 seats initially, I ...

Some schools choose not to run dual curriculum because of the complex logistics. all DSS has to offer NSS classes but what precisely is the number of classes of NSS that a DSS school has to run?

swat

shadeslayer 發表於 12-11-9 14:37
Some schools choose not to run dual curriculum because of the complex logistics. all DSS has to offe ...

As ANChan pointed out, the bottom line of EDB would be, not more than 50% of non-DSE seats. Each DSS (who also runs an IBD programme) however negotiates individually and would be approved with, probably different quota for IBDp places. Looks like 30% becomes kind of a golden rule in some recent cases.  I heard there is at least one DSS allowed upto 50% of its final year students taking IBD instead of DSE.

shadeslayer

FattyDaddy

I KNOW there many Chinese looking students in ESF. May be 70% of them are really HK residents. May be they are not. But that is not the point. ESF had an explicit admission rule that de-prioritize Cantonese speaking applicants. 98% of HK people speak Cantonese and 100% of ethnic Chinese in HK speaks Cantonese.  Some say this is discrimination against HK residents.  With that in mind, how can anyone say because there is x % of HK residents in the school, ESF is serving HK people the same way a DSS do.

田心

原帖由 shadeslayer 於 12-11-09 發表
FattyDaddy

I KNOW there many Chinese looking students in ESF. May be 70% of them are really HK resi ...

Hey, don't forget, HK residents include Indian, Pakistanis, etc. They are the minorities, many of them can only speak their own languages and English. Of course, some are able to understand Cantonese but not many of them are able to read or write Chinese.  Therefore, they may not be able to access the local education system. These parents are able to send their children to ESF with an affordable school fees due to the subventions.