St. Paul's Boys Primary School vs St. Joseph, which one is better?

esp

LLT, Noted and thanks !

Could mommy with kids in St. Paul's Boys comment ?

Gorowitz

Dear LLT,

If you got the choice between St. Paul Co-ed, DBSPD and Alliance Primary school, what would be your decision and why. Please share.

Gorowitz

由 LLT 於 2006-08-14 16:33:54

esp,

I apologise that I am unable to answer your questions for I do not have any knowledge on St. Paul's Boys School.

I only applied St. Paul Co-ed, DBSPD and Alliance Primary School for my boy. It is fortunate for me to have such a 'smart' boy who failed in all applications and thus save me a lot of money.  

LLT

Dear Gorowitz,

My answer is simple.  Alliance Primary School is the first one out of the list notwithstanding that its school fee is the cheapest among the three.  The reason being that it does not have the backing up of a good secondary school.

The next one out is St. Paul Co-ed.  Apart from the simple commercial decision that it charges the highest school fee, it is a school for the noble class to which I am not belonging to.

The only one then left is DBSPD that would not have been popular but for its senior, the DBS which is standing behind it.

In any event, if I am lucky to have got La Salle or St. Joseph at the lucky draw (as now I do), I won't hesitate to give up any of the above 3 schools even if my son is able to secure a seat there.  It is, again, based on commercial decision as La Salle and St. Joseph are free of charge and both backed up by reputable secondary school of their own with traceable records.  This is also regarded by me as being compensation to me from the government to whom I have been paying taxes for 20+ years and haven't got a single benefit from it in return up to this moment.

andrew

LLT,

Yes, based on commercial decision as La Salle and St. Joseph are free of charge, but for future, how to forecast which schools will be better.

1. compare students enrollment.
2. compare the resourse.
3. compare with the system.

If nothing change, then you can just consider their old school result, their reputation etc. but now, thing s are changed, La Salle and St. Joseph collect the students by lucky draw, they employed old system, but these three schools can select students and they run by commercial style, which system is better?

Most important, your son is just promoted to p1, we can not simply guest the school can still keep the result. We must find a school which have a great chance to be good in future.

LLT

andrew,

I agree with you that La Salle and St. Joseph are unable to select their own primary students, and accept whoever is assigned to them from the Lucky Draw.  May be they are also running the school in the old way.  But does it necessarily mean that, with these drawbacks in the air, the performance of their secondary school is doomed to fall in the long run?

On the other hand, are the DSSs and private schools which have the benefit of collecting school fee, being run in a commercial way and able to select their own students bound to have, or be able to maintain, excellent performance in future?  Understandably, it is the legitimate expectation for parents paying fee to these schools that the answer to the aforesaid question be affirmative.

Regarding the unfettered right in the admission of students by the DSSs, when I incidentally talked about the case with a German visitor friend a few months ago, who is a holder of Doctor degree in Germany, he felt it ridiculous and wondered if it is really possible for a school to choose the elites from the applicants when they are only at their 5 or 6.  So, do you believe that all students chosen by those DSSs at this age are talented and must be able to remain as brilliant students throughout their school life?

For the secondary schooling, you may have forgotten the hard fact for parents that having gained entry to the primary school of La Salle or St. Joseph is no assurance for their kids in securing a place at its secondary.  It is only for those who have proven their ability at the primary stage are eligible for direct promotion to the secondary stage.  The remainder seats are filled up by students with similar or near ability within the school net under the present system.

It is of course reasonable for you to predict that those students from the DSSs in issue may have a better chance of achieving outstanding performance in public examinations.  However, the school may not be playing the sole and dominant role responsible for the result as being run commercially, bearing in mind that students of these schools usually come from well off families affordable to provide them with sufficient resources and support after school, such as extra lessons and activities given by private lecturers and instructors.  For instance, my ex-boss has hired a westerner to teach his grandson English and a Mandarin speaker for Mandarin at home everyday while the boy is now only 3.

Turning back to La Salle and St. Joseph.  Although no school fee is required, it does not mean that the parents will not be putting in extra resources and support to their kids after school.  Indeed, I would envisage that most parents of these two schools will certainly give extra lectures by private tutors to their kids once they notice their performance does not meet the school's requirement or is lagging behind the others due to keen competitions.

Actually, I have been considering for some times the reason why it is always those traditional reputable schools (I mean secondary schools) achieving comparatively better results than the others.  I come to the conclusion that it is due to their past remarkable records that attract most brilliant students within their school net.  The schools become 'concentration camps' of students whose average ability are higher than the others and thus produce excellent results in public examinations.

Further, I am always of the view that whether a student is brilliant or mediocre depends much on his/her own personal ability coupled with hard working.  It has been repeatedly acknowledged by principals and teachers of secondary schools at various public forums that teaching capable students is a much easier task than teaching those ordinary or sub-standard.

This leads me to think about the example of driving of a powerful sport car and a 1500 c.c. family saloon, the former springs out like a crazy horse if you step on the fuel pedal with certain amount of force, but the latter walks like a snail when the same force is applied.  You can then substitute the schools as the drivers, and the students in reputable schools are the sport cars, whereas those in ordinary schools are the small saloons.  Only slight effort is needed to drive the students in reputable schools to give maximum output and so good performance.

So long as a school is able to attract more high quality students, it should be able to maintain good performance in public examinations.  In this connection, I trust you would have no objection to my assertion that not all brilliant students come from wealthy families; there are always some from the ordinary and poor sector of the community go to schools like La Salle and St. Joseph, etc

With the screening process still in its place on the admission of secondary students, i.e., via the assessment by their own primary school and from the school banding system, it is not unreasonable for me to expect La Salle and St. Joseph to maintain good performance (though it may not be relevant to me in any event as there are chances that my son will not be able to get admitted by St. Joseph's College a few years later for being so 'smart').  The screening process is a safeguard to the schools that their admitted students have reached certain standard with potential ability.

You are of the view that I am merely forecasting that La Salle and St. Joseph will be able to up keep their past performance.  With respect, it seems to me that you, likewise, are also making guesswork that those DSSs must be able to achieve excellent performance in the years to come.

It will be meaningless for us to drag on fruitless discussion on the issue as whether the DSSs in question will be becoming more successful and if the performance of La Salle and St. Joseph will be falling as you predicted are yet to be seen after a couple of years.

andrew

LLT,

Actually, I don’t like the term “legitimate expectation”, I will use the term “forecast”, or “predict” indeed since you must have some reasons to support your forecast.

The DSSs and private schools which have the benefit of collecting school fee, being run in a commercial way and able to select their own students bound to have, or be able to maintain, excellent performance in future?  My answer is yes; at least have higher probable than just the lucky draw. You can have a look in HongKong's primary school, private school is better than public one (in fact I haven't had any statistic in hand).

I just want to add more: things are changed, you cannot use old data to predict new things, I suggest you can consider other countries' case, such as USA, the best schools almost run by private fund.

I am now looking a secondary for my son, a friend gives me a suggestion: YMCA of Hong Kong Christian which half of the staff is NET and nearly half of teachers has master degree or above. How about SJC, if a student can either enter YMCA or SJC, which school is better, I prefer YMCA.

LLT

andrew,

I have difficulty in understanding you for disliking my use of the term 'legitimate expectation' to describe the perfectly reasonable and natural hope of parents that the school they are paying for will be able to show excellent performance.  You did agree with me previously and said that if the school cannot show you have excellent public examination result, why you need to pay HKD38000 school fee a year, didn't you?

I do agree with you that those students admitted by the DSSs may be of better quality.  But this confines only at the primary school stage.  At the time of interview for admission to primary 1, there can be a huge intelligence gap between 2 applicants where one is 6 or above and the other is just 5.  We all know that the performance of elder boys and girls in interview is usually better than small boys and girls.  But does the same difference still exist 6 years later when all of them are going to the secondary?  I think the answer is a definite 'No'.  Their mental intelligence gap will gradually narrow down and extinguished eventually when they grow a few years older.

The situation is totally different at the secondary stage as I have already stated that, taking the example of La Salle and St. Joseph, not all their primary students can get promoted directly to the secondary school but only those proven themselves as eligible by good performance.  The lucky draw for the remaining seats are also limited to those good students from other primary schools within the same net and classified by bandings.  The nature of secondary school's lucky draw is not identical to that of the primary; it is subject to academic qualification and residential address is no longer relevant.

You quoted the best schools in USA are by private fund.  But if my memory is not incorrect, my German friend told me that those good schools in Germany are public school instead of private.

It is a shame of me that with my limited knowledge I have never heard of YMCA of Hong Kong Christian until now.  I am therefore unable to give you any comment on this school notwithstanding that it has half native English teachers.  I can only tell you my own case that some 30+ years ago when I was in my primary school, I had already had native English teacher as my class teacher.  However, it didn't make me any brighter!

I stated earlier that I am a simple minded person whose only yardstick is performance of the school in public examinations.  As such, I believe you would have already known my election between the two schools cited by you.

chuenma

Dear LLT & Andrew

你們的分拆力很强呀, 十分敬佩, 說來我也同意, 一間不需付錢成績又好的學校才是家長渴求的; 這的確是事實.  但問題是這些'勁正'的學校收不了全港廣大的學生, 所以家長便要另尋出路了.

以下是一些名校的自保方法, 他們是本着達標的精神去教學, 要自已的學校top, 當然學生都要top, 派進來的學生的水準不一並不重要, 學校會照自己的目標, 定下一定程度及進度去教, 並要求學生達標, 家校合作後便有top學生.  追不上的有老師經常致電家長跟進, 並表示基本上大部份同學都是100分或9x分, 要求家長督'速'子女達標,  若不能改進的, 老師便會明示和暗示家長考慮為子女轉一下學習環境, 小朋追不上, 老師對小朋友的關注亦會減底., 但對家長的趨’速’會更甚, 在這種被老師趨’速’情況下&顧及子女感受的家長會為子女轉校, 經過這種6年或中小共11年的家校合作, 留下來的學生當然top . 這都是真實的, 我眼見的不只1次, 是多次及不同的top, top名校的手法, 而這些名校正是不少家長的dream school.


Esp

我兒子今年考進了St Paul Boy P.1, interview 是廣東話對答, 校長的問題簡單, 只是看小朋友的常識, 理解,反應及禮貌.  真實我對此校不多了解, 綱上家長對此校評價不一, 我也不須我兒入一間狀元學府, 吸引我的除了St Paul 有中學外, 最重要是那位董得循循善誘的校長及一班有禮和尊重家長的教職員, 在這一年我與學校的多次聯絡, St Paul 是最有禮貌及照顧家長感受的學校, 正是我兒是on waiting list才有機會感受, 這是我眞心的感覺.  我相信一家好學校, 首先要有一位好校長, 這樣教師才有正確的方向去教導學生.  希望1年後我可以出來對大家說St Paul是一間好學校.

我表弟在St Paul 中學畢業, 他剛當上了藥劑師, 他也想不到6年後學校會變了人家說'不要選擇'的中學校, 不知再6年後又會怎樣.

St Jo, 我姪兒在這裏讀P5, 升p.6了, 哥哥說學生很乖, 功課不多, 但因小學不能100升中, 壓力很大, 其他媽0米說的都是事實, 世界沒有free lunch, 入讀的便要有心理準備.

holokmom

Andrew, LLT,

Andrew- abt you say:
You can have a look in HongKong's , private school is better than public one (in fact I haven't had any statistic in hand).

我認為要看那一間primary school/DSS , 如果你說聖心a.m.、高主教、St.paul Convent 大家都agree, if St.loius、 聖士提反堂、慈幼a.m. 咁就唔同啦！Also, the majority primary schools in HK are subsidy school , not public.

So why some of them can keeping the good acamedic and some can't? 我就同意LLT 所講:

Actually, I have been considering for some times the reason why it is always those traditional reputable schools (I mean secondary schools) achieving comparatively better results than the others. I come to the conclusion that it is due to their past remarkable records that attract most brilliant students within their school net. The schools become 'concentration camps' of students whose average ability are higher than the others and thus produce excellent results in public examinations.

andrew

LLT,

I do not dislike the term ‘legitimate expectation’, I just think it is not a suitable term to describe the reason why parents want to choose DSS school, maybe I can give a example, if a child is ‘very smart’, his parent still can expect his child will get a good result in future, but I think his parent will not forecast his child will get a good result in future due to “very smart”. I think parents pay for DSSs just because they think the reasons I mentioned before will benefit to their children and forecast their children can get a good result.

You've mentioned that you are a simple minded person whose only yardstick is performance of the school in public examinations, and thus you choose SJC, I know that, but I just want to point out that your yardstick is not so strong, first, if the situation is not change, than it is reasonable to predict SJC will still have a good result by the same condition, but now, are the conditions still are same? Secondly, how does SJC catch the good result? Yes, as you mentioned about, it keep dropping those less performance and enrolled good students. I just wonder if your German friend finding  SJC is a good school that doing nothing (or nothing special) but just keep dropping and enrolling students.

if I am lucky to have got La Salle or St. Joseph at the lucky draw (as now I do), I won't hesitate to give up any of the above 3 schools even if my son is able to secure a seat there.

At last, I want to add something that I forgot to point out: You cannot do that, you just “talking”.

mattsmum

chuenma 寫道:

追不上的有老師經常致電家長跟進, 並表示基本上大部份同學都是100分或9x分, 要求家長督'速'子女達標,  若不能改進的, 老師便會明示和暗示家長考慮為子女轉一下學習環境, ... 這都是真實的, 我眼見的不只1次, 是多次及不同的top, top名校的手法, 而這些名校正是不少家長的dream school.

is there really such school? christian school? not a good thing.

LLT

andrew,

In Oxford Dictionary, the word 'forecast' means "tell in advance (what is expected to happen, predict with the help of information", and 'expectation' means among others, "hope of gaining something/that something will happen"

Substituting the dictionary meaning into your last sentence in the 1st paragraph, it becomes "I think parents pay for DSSs just because they think the reasons I mentioned before will benefit to their children and can tell in advance their children can get a good result".  Please note that your sentence thus means, alternatively, in short, the parents CAN TELL IN ADVANCE that their children can get good result because they study in DSSs   Is that what you mean?

I chose St. Joseph because I bear the HOPE that my son can struggle through to its secondary.  Is having this hope blameworthy as a parent?  If his ability turns out to be limited, I am happy to face the reality rather than to blame the school.  Is it your view that I should have chosen those unpopular or even UNKNOWN primary school for my son in the first place?

You mentioned St. Joseph (may be other reputable schools too) keeps dropping out sub-standard students with a view to maintaining its good performance.  If that is really the case, no harm, then just keep doing it as it did in the past.  Then what changes are there as you always keep on reminding me?

You keep on emphasising that things changed, and the performance of those traditional reputable schools (again I am referring to secondary schools) will be falling and not measuring up with the DSSs because of the latter (1) can select its own students, (2) have more resources (I doubt except St. Paul Co-ed with the donation from tycoon Lee) and (3) are being run commercially.  Please, I shall be obliged if you will let me have one, and one only, concrete example AT THIS POINT OF TIME as to which DSS has produced 10A and 9 A students (who were admitted after the school was changed to DSS) in the HKCEE.  I venture to say that you can give me none for the time being.

The most famous DSS at the moment is perhaps St. Paul Co-ed and it, again, has a few 10A and 9A students this year.  But don't forget that these outstanding students still came from the old system, and the school bandings were reduced into 3 at the time of their admission 5 years ago.

Last but not least, you said in your last paragraph that I could not do that and just talking, let me assure you that you are wrong as it is not wholly true but pardon me that I won't tell the details.

esp

chuenma

唔該晒你詳盡o既分析呀！我非常同意你話 "我不須我兒入一間狀元學府"，為左甘我地要搬屋仲係其次，仲可能要加入宗教(好唔道德，但逼不得以)，最重要就係要逼得個仔好辛苦，今日o既社會人人有壓力，但唔洗細細個就背個重包袱掛？我已經預左比佢去外國讀高中，雖然唔知係咪一定好，但比佢多個選擇囉。所以我只期望佢嚮香港讀d中上游學校，最好幼稚園時讀國際，開心d。不過我咩都未實行，因個仔重細，想聽多d媽咪意見先。希望再見到你post個仔嚮st. paul o既情況啦！

kerobobo

LLT:
一個字: 勁!

Pansy21

              

kerobobo 寫道:
LLT:
一個字: 勁!

JodiYang

Dear LLT,

the question maybe similar, which school will u choose (besides the school fee consideration) , St. Joseph, St. Paul Boys, 華仁, 港大同學會小學 ?
How many DSSs will u apply for the interview for your son?
Thx

LLT

Dear JodiYang,

Within the 4 schools quoted by you, it is a more difficult question for me to choose between St. Joseph and Wah Yan.  In fact both are my target schools within the net.  In addition to the aforesaid 2 schools, Hennessey Road Govt. Primary School was also my target at the same time.  It was only at the last minute I decided to choose St. Joseph as the first choice because it has the greatest number of seats available and so a better chance of success in the lucky draw.

I won't choose St. Paul Boys because I didn't learn much about it.  Neither would I choose HKUGA Primary School because it is only a new school that its performance is yet to be seen (but may be we shall never be able to know for it runs on IB syllabus if I am not wrong).  Further, HKUGA Primary School adopts active learning method in teaching and to this I feel myself do not possess the necessary intelligence, knowledge and time to cope with it.

The DSSs that I applied for my son were St. Paul Co-ed and DBSPD.  It is a shame of him that he failed!  I would supplement that I applied for these two schools not because they are DSSs but for the outstanding performance that they have shown in history.

JodiYang

Dear LLT,

Thanks for your advice.
Since my son is "細仔", who is born on late Nov , so I'm worry that if he is lucky enough to get  a seat in St.Joseph, it will be hard for him to catch up the school work. If u were me, will u consider to wait for another year to join the lucky draw?

LLT

Dear JodiYang,

You are welcomed.  What I stated is not any sound advice at all.  Every parent does have his/her own thought and preference.

My son is in no better position than yours; he is also a 'small' boy.  Personally, I don't prefer delaying his primary education for one year.  May be he needs more effort to catch up with others at the very beginning, but it should be all right as time goes on (I hope).

My niece (now 19) will be attending the 2nd year at the HKU in the coming September.  She graduated from Form 5 at the age of 16.  So by calculation, you can work out that she was too a 'small' girl when she attended her Primary 1.