小 班 教 學 不 便 等 於 優 質 教 育

cow

alexlui寫道:
書[學]卷制度便可以令壞學校被淘汰.在自由競爭的情況下我們便不需要教改. 就像我們不需要教廚師煮菜. 因為我也不能煮一手好菜. 同樣我們又是不是教育專家呢?

學卷制在小學一定行唔通!

alexlui

Hi Cow,

[/quote]
學卷制在小學一定行唔通![/quote]

Please tell me why, are you a teacher?

warrrren

Hi Alexlui,

(如特首孫兒讀的漢基國際學校).

This is not incorrect.  Do your research before you make a statement of fact.

你們會否叫政府立例限制茶餐廳食客人數令做得十分差的茶餐廳繼續生存?

Do you really believe that we can improve the overall quality of the restaurants in Hong Kong by making all restaurants big?  Or, put it differently, do you really believe that one can keep bad restaurants alive by making all restaurants small?

現在那些正處於被殺校邊緣的校長正運用他們的影響力去制止受歡迎的學校多收學生.在六月的統一派位之後未能選取心儀學校的家長將會面對更多困難, 己有校長表明不會多收學生. 更多學生只能入讀不理想的學校. 本人也喜歡小班教學,但在好學校難入的情况下,我情願接受大班的壞處. 雞校有如虎穴龍潭,我情願學生擠在理想的學校中,也不願他們被犧牲. 我情願那些壞教師留在家中領取綜援,也不想他們留在學校教壞學生. 壞教師不只教不好學生, 他們人格上的缺陷只會令壞學生更壞, 縱容壞學生欺凌其他學生, 好學生也難在這些學校有發

I do agree that it is more desirable that the better schools have more students.  But, what is the relevance of class size?  Why can't we let a good school of 5 classes of 35 students per class become a school of 10 classes of 20 students per class?  The better schools can still have more students while keeping class size down. It's not rocket science.   

I am not a teacher and hate bad teachers as much as everyone does.  Yet, I refuse to let hatred impair my judgment.

Warrrren

alexlui

Hi warrrren,

(如特首孫兒讀的漢基國際學校).

This is not incorrect.  Do your research before you make a statement of fact.

Now I doubt it, I heard it from my friend.

你們會否叫政府立例限制茶餐廳食客人數令做得十分差的茶餐廳繼續生存?  
Do you really believe that we can improve the overall quality of the restaurants in Hong Kong by making all restaurants big?  Or, put it differently, do you really believe that one can keep bad restaurants alive by making all restaurants small?

I believe that if we can't choose the best we need to accept the second best.  If we can't choose the second best then we need to choose the third best and so on....  The saddest thing is that some parents must accept the worst.

現在那些正處於被殺校邊緣的校長正運用他們的影響力去制止受歡迎的學校多收學生.在六月的統一派位之後未能選取心儀學校的家長將會面對更多困難, 己有校長表明不會多收學生. 更多學生只能入讀不理想的學校. 本人也喜歡小班教學,但在好學校難入的情况下,我情願接受大班的壞處. 雞校有如虎穴龍潭,我情願學生擠在理想的學校中,也不願他們被犧牲. 我情願那些壞教師留在家中領取綜援,也不想他們留在學校教壞學生. 壞教師不只教不好學生, 他們人格上的缺陷只會令壞學生更壞, 縱容壞學生欺凌其他學生, 好學生也難在這些學校有發
I do agree that it is more desirable that the better schools have more students.  But, what is the relevance of class size?  Why can't we let a good school of 5 classes of 35 students per class become a school of 10 classes of 20 students per class?  The better schools can still have more students while keeping class size down. It's not rocket science.   

This is the best thing I heard if possible.

I am not a teacher and hate bad teachers as much as everyone does.  Yet, I refuse to let hatred impair my judgment.

I allow hatred to push me to save other children.  My son is studying in ESF's SJS, I don't need to bother the local system anymore.  My school life was messed up by bad teachers and classmates.  I love my son, I also care about other children.  I want to tell other parents that bad schools are like hells.  The first thing we must do is to remove bad schools at any cost, the rest is just technicality.

alexlui

stccmc 寫道:
香港教育現況是如何?  我這個教育門外漢也知道:

1. 教育改革如火如荼: 一條龍辦學, 小學全日制, 直資, 語言政策, 升小升中辨法, 334, 專科專教, 課程改革, 通識, 新會考... 改革花樣及花錢多, 每樣也具爭議, 政府又被批評朝令夕改。 ..........

I totally agree with you.  BTW, I like your poem, was it written for your sweetheart?

warrrren

Morning stccmc,

And where do you think we can get teachers to handle the 5 additional classes in good schools? Do you think we need to improve the good school hardware as well?

If we already do not have enough teachers (or enough good ones), we can either (a) produce more good teaches, and/or (b) turn the bad ones into good ones.  Can we turn the bad teachers into good teachers by keeping class size big?  Isn't big class size and heavy workload matters that turn good teachers away?  Can we attract new teachers to the profession by keeping big classes and letting schools remain like hell?

I will also love to see bad teachers "eliminated".  But don't think keeping class size big is the means to achieve that end.  Reducing class size benefits all students and all teachers and all parents.  I do not mind that bad teaches also beneifit from a reduction in class size.  They can still be identified and removed if necessary.  In fact, I tend to think that it will be easier to hunt the bad ones down if class size is reduced (better work environment, better school life, more new comers, more competition among teachers...)

Do you think we need to improve the good school hardware as well?

The answer is yes of course.  I gave the example to show that class size and school's capacity are not directly co-related.


warrrren

warrrren

Morning Alex,

The first thing we must do is to remove bad schools at any cost

I really don't see much difference between you and me.  Only these three words - "at any cost", set us apart.

warrrren

alexlui

Hi warrrren,

I really like being optimistic as you.  The killing of bad schools is on progress, I can see that they are dying :-}.  Can we wait until all those bad schools have been eliminated before the implementation of small classes.  Those foxes are finding holes to escape.  In the coming September, some students will be forced to enter those bad schools.  Those foxes have been telling the good schools to admit less students in order to save them. Some principals yielded.  I got it from newspapers.  

Please save the poor chidren. You may not know what is happening in those bad schools.  Do you remember 人肉打樁機, 上水喇唦欺凌事件?  

I know you are a kind person, I enjoy this discussion with you.

Regards.

Eva

    

warrrren 寫道:

...(b) turn the bad ones into good ones. Can we turn the bad teachers into good teachers by keeping class size big? Isn't big class size and heavy workload matters that turn good teachers away? Can we attract new teachers to the profession by keeping big classes and letting schools remain like hell?

I will also love to see bad teachers "eliminated".  But don't think keeping class size big is the means to achieve that end.  Reducing class size benefits all students and all teachers and all parents.  I do not mind that bad teaches also beneifit from a reduction in class size.  They can still be identified and removed if necessary.  In fact, I tend to think that it will be easier to hunt the bad ones down if class size is reduced (better work environment, better school life, more new comers, more competition among teachers...)

warrrren

lochan

Kinda join it late on this heated but interesting topic.

A lot of valuable and different opinions shared in this thread like those from ykwong and alexhui. I would try to pour in some of my views by not repeating what's been said priviously.

In a nutshell, I think the question needs to be rephrased as "What is the optimal size of a class to achieve best results in HK". Is it 40, 30 or 20? In HK, I think 30 is more realistic for teacher to remember all the names of the student and hopefully, the characters and abilities of every students. The essence is that even in a class, optimal class size can be more specifically address individual students ability and hence design special learning process for the individual kids. For example, in my son's class, reading is largely encouraged but the school does not force kids to be able to read books of certain level of difficulty by the end of term. What they do is they will let each children borrow books to read starting from the lowest level and monitor the individual's progress, and the teacher will raise the level of one kid only if he is ready. Some may start to pick up later but may be able to catch up a long way by the end of term, some may advance to a much higher level. At the end of the term, most of the class can read relatively difficult picture books. My son is now starting to try to read chapter books.

Bad teacher, small class  -  NOT WORKING at all! The whole process of reform is politically driven and is ugly as hell. My conspiracy theory is that - Why don't British don't use ESF system for HK residents and instead, they use the current approach? Answer is local education system in general tends to raise kids with good discipline but at the same time lack of creativity and therefore easier to ride and manipulate by the British!

Back to the main issue, ideally, in order to implement optimal class size, teacher reform is inevitable. The root of the problem is the quality of teachers, not class size, which can be dealt with later! In HK, majority of students with no choice to enter Univeristies will opt for studying in education institution end up being a teacher. In Taiwan, those with good academic results will choose education as a profession as in USA and Canada which Degree in Education is offered at most Universities and is respected by every one like any other discipline.

If teacher's qualtiy can be improved, In HK, I think optimal size class is beneficial. At the time being, the quality of teacher is the big obstacle to overcome.

Compare to N America, we have an advantage since parents in HK are more concerned and actively involved with child's education than those American parents. Can't you see Chinese in N. America usually perform well compare with Caucasians? Of course, parents must have an open mind in education and ready to throw away the old bag containing the traditional local education system approach.

A lot of parents seems to ignore a very important issue which I think is not unusual since HK education system is exam result oriented and we are brought up that way too. Other than academic results, what abour other values? There are other important qualities of a child's education e.g.  creativity, self-esteem, confidence, problem solving , independence, self starting etc etc which have not been touched on and these are way more important than merely eying on academic achievements! I look back in my past and see how I was brought up and I think I could have done better. Well now we can only hope that our children can receive a better education. ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMNT IS ONLY A SMALL PART OF THE WHOLE PACKAGE!!!

My son is now studying in IS and I can definitely see the benefits of it. Truly it is $$$$ and the quality of the teachers is very high indeed ($$$ also!). My son was not a very independent child but has improved significantly and could have been worse if he took on the local education approach. Next year I will send him to DBSPD and I'm still worrying about the impact although I have heard a lot of good things about it. Class size seems ideal to me being not too big. Cross my fingers..

Conclusion is, to implement optimal class, there are things to resolve (this is no easy task and may not work out in the end):-
improve teacher's quality;
cut the political crap;
better use of resources (not necessary mean more $$);
parents willing to accept the fact that his/her child may drop in academic results but as a result enjoying a gain in self-esteem, be more self-starting and more creative etc.


cheers,

ykwong

..My conspiracy theory is that - Why don't British don't use ESF system for HK residents and instead, they use the current approach? Answer is local education system in general tends to raise kids with good discipline but at the same time lack of creativity and therefore easier to ride and manipulate by the British!

這點甚反對，即使英國人的"立法原意"是這樣，亦不過抄自我國二千多年來的傳統：萬般皆下品；並以愚忠為主的孔孟之道以降低讀書人之創造力(creativity)。讀(填)孔孟乃唯一脫貧出路。不宜事事怪諸殖民主義 。

另，令郎將入讀之學校，由非常殖民主義之聖公會主理，請小心！

lochan

Confusious mind in Chinese education system stems every Chinese's heart for thousands of years. All the British did was just to give a slight push from behind..

"另，令郎將入讀之學校，由非常殖民主義之聖公會主理，請小心！"  -  I have another reason to concern now that you had mentioned it!!

ykwong

或者咁講，孔孟是一種學說，本身並冇填唔填鴨之分，封建制下之帝王之術。迫令有志脫貧之士以填鴨方式獨沽一味讀孔孟。由漢武帝罷黜百家，獨尊儒術為始，至明/清?以八股文為科舉必然體裁告終。令中國從文明古國淪為第三世界國家。有冇睇復活的軍團！那時中國多先進！

死背爛背以圖為仕，便是"大班"與填鴨之根基！

愚考固然沒落(因沒出路)，愚忠倒未必。看看以前 AO 之有鑊齊齊(子頁)制度，那位受人傳訟的香港良心。做過甚麼豐功偉績。除了郭亞女外，你知道嗎? 何解步步高陞？靠的便是一個忠字。這是數千年累積的基因，你總會在不知不覺中找到它的存在。

另, lochan

說說笑姐，聖公會縰有和皇室千絲萬縷的關係，今天在港亦已完成任務。我見你如此反英。說來玩下姐，唔使咁認真。英人縱有千般不是，怎也為香港帶來言論自由、法治精神及普及教育。同意否？

alexlui

早安: )

唔好意思, 本人中文水平一般, 並沒有讀過關於儒家的愚忠愚考的文章.  實在不明白什麽是愚考, 只是讀過愚孝.  敬請賜教.

alexlui

Hi lochan,

Your sharing is invaluable.      

Next year I will send him to DBSPD and I'm still worrying about the impact although I have heard a lot of good things about it. Class size seems ideal to me being not too big. Cross my fingers..

Congratulation, I am facing the same problem, but my son's another choice is Kowloon Tong Primary School.  I prefer to let him stay in SJS.  DBSPD is more famous, so your decision is much harder to make.  You may post it as a new topic, so more parents can join the discussion.

Regards.

ykwong

是孝，寫錯字。 Happy?

stccmc

我買了李天命啦，不過未排到佢。以單一論點討論，我實唔夠你坳。我知我一向拉雜成軍，話題東拉西扯，旨在宣揚個人意見。只求發表，不敢妄想他人認同。

試下反駁： //..處處批判老師, 挑戰家長..//

斷章取義，這樣說，你君臣、父子的觀念亦潛藏基因。有疑問要質疑，你必同意。問題祇是一個"禮"字吧！看！我都有。


//因為儒家思想導致現今年青一代缺少創意這說法似乎企不住腳。 是否我曲解了你的意思//

這句真的有點曲解，我說的應是以填鴨方式獨沽一味地灌輸儒家思想是令中國人落後於西方國家的主因，而儒家思想植根，仍對現世人 於思想上有很大潛藏之影響力。

對認同大班及單向灌注的思維亦起一定之助力。