英研究﹕教文法無助英文寫作

WYmom

lochan 寫道:
Billy,

The solution is easy and yet hard depending on the parents. You have to speak English to your child every day. Enrol in a kindergarden that is bilingual, or even better, an IS. Have him to watch English programmes. That may already cause some difficulties to the parents but is still achievable. Some parents amy argue they are not capable. But to me it will be a good opportunitiy for parents to improve themselves by continuing educate themselves and in turn, help the child.

If you afraid that the child lacking in Chinese. Have one dedicated parent speak to him purely in Chinese/Putonghua and the other English. He may take more time to pick both up at the same time. But don't underestimate a child's language ability. He can somehow survive.

My drawback is my parents are not in HK so I cannot strike a balance between English and Chinese and therefore, my son speaks mostly English although he can understand Chinese completely.

lochan,

I also use your way to teach my kids, the younger one can speak English more, and she can also speak Chinese.  The elder one used to speak Chinese, but when she sees her younger sister speaks good English, she tends to speak more English too as she does not want to be worse than her sister. This is quite a result I have not expected.

I believe it is more effective when the kids are small.  The more they grow up, the less capable they are in learning languages quickly and naturally.

lochan

I'm glad it works out fine with you!

ambrose

Philip,

你傾到咁晏仲頭腦清晰, 真佩服. 我已經去咗訓覺  
唔知係"口米" 呢個題目討論英文, 所以大部份人都用英文留言?  

warrrren

Hi Youma and others,

I think this kind of communication approach is quite risky. Once a kid sticks to the wrong rule (grammar) and no one corrects his/her works, it will mislead the kid and it is difficult to correct. That's why the writing ability of westerns is dropping.

Learning grammar first may be boring but it is a must, just like learning the gesture of waving rackets before playing tennis. The parents should read story books with the kids to stimulate thier interest in English, but not by encouraging them to write with errors.

Don’t get me wrong.  I have a great deal of respect for grammar and do not encourage grammatical errors.  What I have been talking about is that it is a matter of utmost importance that teachers and parents must not unknowingly cause or allow the kids to lose enthusiasm about learning.  The grammatically approach can easily go wrong, especially with the younger kids.  Believe or not, grammar, though important, is the easiest part in English learning.  Get a few good books on English grammar and usage; swallow them.  And you are there.  I consider the problem with grammar an attitude problem.  People (kids or not) keep making grammatical errors because they can derive no joy from using the language.  They just do not care about it.  I have yet seen a child who loves the language but cannot handle grammar.  I doubt whether one can ever be found.

Regards,
warrrren

lochan

Philip,
Wow, just got back from a long meeting and already attracted tons of criticism! I'm open to any criticism. And I 'm not saying that what I said is 100% correct.

You had quoted:
你的思想根本就是脫離香港環境的現實，活在個人幸福的空間，完全沒有顧及中下及草根階層的父母和他們小朋友的感受。你完全活在一個理想大同的烏托邦！  What's wrong with the search for Utopia. I always stressed, at the end some parents will struggle to provide all the tools to teach their children English, but at least they know what they need to provide and compromise as little as possible and maximise the effect. Yes, I considered I am lucky but that doesn't mean that I don't care about the feelings of the other parents. I respect all parents who thrive to provide the best for the children and although may not be enough, but the effort is there. That's why I would wish all parents in HK will one day benefit from improvement (if any) local education system that fufils what I picture that parents can relax and leave it the the schools to learn English. For now, every parents will struggle to provide a good English speaking environment to a certain degree since Local education is inadequate.

你想法要切合實際社會上的需要。如果你是教統局局長李國章，如何運用香港有限的資源去改進和提升香港中、小學生的聽、讀、寫、講能力呢？我反而欣賞詹德隆先生能夠用一個實事求事、切合香港社會實際上需要去提出如何改進和提升香港中、小學生的英語能力。
In fact a lot of good local schools can set as an example for other schools to follow like DGS, their students' English is extremely well. I think it is possible! If not achieve 100%, a 70% is improvement. Someone just have to start it and I'm sure it's a lifelong battle for improvement.

我也認識任教國際學校的老師，他們對我說明一個事實，學生可以說流利標準的英語，但他們讀了多年國際學校還不能寫一封像樣的，不錯文法的英文信.
Every school has bad apples be it local or Int'l school. In general, my observation on reputable IS, their students'  English writing skills are very good. I'm more concern that my child be able to write with substance than have occasional grammatical error.
What good if one can write with perfect grammar but with no substance.


I may go overboard sometimes but I stand up to my belief.

Jokey2828

Hi everyone,

What an interesting discussion on a very controversial topic!

Before we consider the pros and cons of adopting Grammatical or Communicative Approach in Hong Kong, I think we should first of all think about this: Are the target children learning English as their second or foreign language?

For those children like Lochan's son who are using English as their second or even first language, it would be to their full benefit to adopt a Communicative Approach, supplemented by a Grammatical Approach. However for most children in Hong Kong who acquire English as a foreign language in later part of their life, I don't think that a Communicative Approach in disregard of any grammatical rules is the best.

Imagine that you immerse yourself with French CDs, videos and books everyday without learning the French grammar. Do you think that you will be a proficient French user a few years later?

What I am trying to say here is to master a foreign language, the basic thing to do is to figure out how the language works (i.e. grammar). I can't see how shameful it is for a P.1 student to write, “I am a boy. You are a girl.” When it comes to learning a foreign language, I am afraid that there is no developmental benchmark.

All in all, I think the two approaches should work together in parallel. The only question is how to strike a balance between the two in order to work to the full advantage of our children.

Jokey2828

ykwong

Philipwhau 寫道:

在這個比喻上，我相信 Ykwong 比我更明白，因為他的工作是起樓的。

剛回電腦旁，未看完各位之論點。先回你此句，咪再提人ｄ"私隱"！

另外，逢比喻都有缺憾，此比喻不一定恰當。你睇我就知 :cry:

wetfoot

看到那麼多的正反發表，反為覺得不需要再為意見寫支持的說話，如果大家能把這裡的文章存起，客觀地花一些時間去和其他人討論一下這話題，再來重看及分析，相信人人都可以從中有所得著，只要不故步自封。

Philip所提到詹德隆的主張，個人很有感受，因為Brighter Grammar正是我兒時所讀的書，最初學英文不求甚解而給老師在復活節假期捉往補課10天，再讀Brighter Grammar由最基本文法學起，立即茅塞頓開，了解英語的結構和多看英文書後，發覺原來英文也可以跟中文一樣任玩的，自然在其中找到樂趣了。

有網友提到要營造一個全英語的環境給孩子，朋友之中亦有類似的擁護者，但看來他們本身都不是在此環境長大的，孩子似乎做了白老鼠，要有此環境，最好的安排是到英語國家定居和給子女上當地的一般學校，效果如何？看看ABC們 - 在那邊土生土長的，便可了解，很多回流的朋友子女想回港工作，但眼看他們遇到的困難可不少，成功爭贏本地人而找到好工作的實在不多，其中一大障礙是不大懂中文而工作需要中文。需知道，孩子有的時間有限，只專注學英文就會不懂中文，現代人就是不重視中文兼且不學英文文法，於是中英文都很差。或許有些全英語環境的擁護者也會理解到，他們自己以中文表達也許有點困難。

有人說某些專業人事寫的英文報告也很好，但我看過的新進專業人事報告，大多數﹝如非全部的話﹞的英語都實在太差了，再比較一下"老餅"們的文章，就不由你不接受現今"傳意式"教育失敗的事實。

ykwong

我沒看過多少"權威"的理論。多以切身體會為論點。看得出各位都是好學生，與我稍為不同。

先來一段廢話:每人都活在黑與白之間。有人偏黑，有人較白。其實全都是灰。想要甚麼，便自然偏向一方。

先說 warrren 的論點(不叫KC拿？)。我身邊永遠堆滿字典，文法書等，很有心訓練更佳寫作水平。不看小說多年，近年亦故意買/借古典巨著及流行小說。生字算識得比平均多點點。但寫英文總是文法錯漏百出。

何解？一言以蔽之，根基差！看看身邊人，寫得好的只有一類，便是像各位般的好學生。不論是洋人、自己人、本土生或留學生，都找不到例外情況。

所以我不認同成年後，拿著文法書狂啃，便能撥亂反正。學習的最佳時間，還是青少年期，相信冇人反對。

我討厭儒家思想，但不得不認同中庸之道。同意快樂學習一定比苦學事半功倍。不應尋找黑與白的肯定性，而是尋找中間落墨的[size=medium]方法。

愚見。

回應一位論者：為何建造業的人大多寫不出一封 decent letter?

笞:很多從業員都像我般，根基差，初要寫信便從前人的書信稍加更改。結果越改越衰。後人又因循苟且，以致每況愈下。看看那些合的條文，唔識以為寫得好專業(法律方面)。俾d 真係專職法律既人睇。睇到一頭霧水。

lochan

Dear HKCHAN,


---------------------------------------------------------
"And in another topic about "Japanses students" it appears to me that you "workship" the Caucasians very much."

---I do hope that this is not a personal attack. If that's so, I would be very disappointed. I DO NOT worship them, I just envy their education system since their children are so happy. I just admire their gutsiness in dealing with issues which sometimes lacking in Chinese society. (please disregard Bush, a bugger imo, which I think he took it to the extreme which almost half of the Americans don't support him -- but unfortunately slightly more than half of the Americans support him...)

---In my office, there are some Caucasians of poor ability, but some have some qualities which is worthwhile follow and borrow. I think to myself, if my English ability was as good as they are, I could be in a better position. Having said that, this is on the assumption that Englsih is still the most dominant internationally recognised language in the world. Not until the day when Chinese language becomes dominant, this will remain the same. There is this unfairness which we all have to face.

---------------------------------------------------------
"You know I graduated from a university in Hong Kong and then I studied overseas and worked overseas in a big company with the Caucasians for a few years, and I have found that:

1. They can't even write proper English;

2. Their academic acheivement is NOT generally better than Asians as what you said in the other topic"

---I mentioned earlier, there are bad apples everywhere. But my experience is quite different from yours. One thing I must say is academic achievement is not the only sole consideration to judge a person. There are others important qualities as well.

---As I reiterate that writing a letter with perfect grammar is important, but writing a letter with ideas and substance is more important. Western education is more than just writing perfect English, but it is the mentality and the quest for knowledge, the freedom of speech which I admire the western civilisation. As a Chinese, I'm always proud to be one, does have a lot of good qualities, but I  would like steal some of the western qualities and use it to make me a better person.

---------------------------------------------------------
"And in the working environment -- during meetings, I found that they were in a better position in arguing things and won. However, when we got back to work, can you guess who worked faster and better and had a clearer mind? "

---Please note that when gweilos debate with you on the meeting, they tend to address the issues not to the person. On the contrary, Chinese tends to be more bureaucratic. I have had Chinese and Caucasian bosses, I think the Caucasian boss repect you more, listen to your ideas, free your hands on work and is more result oriented. In one word, they are more straightforward and predictable. That's how they were brought up. In our business, decision making is utmost important. Be able to make a prompt but less than perfect decision is way better than no decision at all.
---They have more guts so to speak (of course sometimes too much..). We should try to absorb gweilos' good qualities and avoid they shortcoming  so that we can add on to our existing stengths and be a better person as a whole. We are all world citizens anyway!

---------------------------------------------------------
"And you know I asked my son's native English teacher (a Canadian lady) from the language centre to give him a reference letter. You can't imagine how many mistakes I pointed out and needed her to correct before I could use that letter!"

---You really have a lot of bad luck! All the caucasian teachers of my son can speak and write well with ease. Can't comment on your bad experience except tofeel sorry for you!

---------------------------------------------------------

lochan

Philip,

No harm done! As for your work related to English, I can relate to you since I'm in your shoes as well.

I can read and write Chinese and and is just that I don't have a Richwin in hand nor do I know the other Chinese input method. and somehow I can express my will better in English..shame on me. But when I was a F.5 boy, my Chinese teacher had read one of my composition to my class ga...!!

Hey, it would be no fun if nobody takes side. Therefore, I have to support C.A. to attract these inspiring comments, views and essays! Frankly speaking, I agree with wetfoot that somewhere in the midlle there is an optimum solution in employing both G.A. and C.A.


This is a very constructive forum and thank all for open my eyes up!

ambrose

"不是一定要用英文寫的。其實我認為用中文寫比用英文寫文章更艱難"


同意, 可惜大家都忘記了 :cry:

WYmom

ambrose 寫道:
"不是一定要用英文寫的。其實我認為用中文寫比用英文寫文章更艱難"


同意, 可惜大家都忘記了 :cry:

Don't understand this, what's the problem? There isn't any rule here on using English or Chinese, it depends on one's convenience.  I can't type Chinese, so cannot join here???

ambrose

我唔懂chinese input method, but I use 手寫板, 幾好用, 可以試試, 唔駛80蚊