How hard is it to get into Oxbridge?

阿飯

More often than not it takes one to delve to get to the fact as is the case here regarding the size of the medical school at Cambridge. On paper it may appear that close to 300 students are admitted to do medicine at Cambridge annually but in reality less than half of that number would be able to remain there to complete the course. The discrepancy arises from the largely ignored fact that Cambridge, probably unique amongst all the other medical schools in the UK (or in the world for that matter) runs a substantially smaller and more selective clinical school which after much expansion over the years still only has a capacity for about 150 students ( it was less than 100 until the late 90s ) despite the mammoth size of  the world-renowned Addenbrooke's Hospital on Hills Road at which the school is located. It exists as a separate entity to the university and runs its own admission procedure  - not only does it  take less than half of the students from Cambridge it also caters for applicants from outside the university as well - this apparent anomaly stems from history as traditionally one could only pursue the study of medicine at Oxbridge as a second degree hence the course at both places is intercalated - the preclinical years where one is affiliated with a college includes a whole year of research at his or her third year leading to a thesis  and an award of a BA after which one is then eligible to apply for a place at the clinical school - whereas at Oxford they admit more or less the same number of students commensurate with the size of its clinical school at Cambridge it is almost twice or thrice the size. Hence, in this respect the clinical school at Cambridge runs in a similar fashion like a true graduate school as those in the States - a student at Cambridge has to face another round of selection procedure based on merit, academic performance and another interviewing process towards the end of his third year . The uncertainty and the additional hurdles add further stress to the already intense workload. All is not lost though as those who fail usually end up at destinations like Oxford or London to complete their training. There is just no smooth sailing studying medicine at Cambridge even one passes all his examinations in his pre-clinical years.

Another factual error -  reciprocal recognition of medical degrees from either place or indeed from most reputable medical schools within the commonwealth has been the norm up until the run-up to the handover when HK unilaterally terminated such arrangement. Despite this, one could still apply to practise in the UK with a medical degree from either CU or HKU nowadays without sitting a redundant licentiate examination like the one in HK ( whether one could find a job is another matter ). This arrangement also extends to medical graduates from Australia, NZ , Singapore, etc.

As to the relative merits of studying medicine at home or abroad I suppose the issue really depends on the individual's intent and predisposition -  if one excels at passing exams and only choose medicine for job security  - practising medicine whether in a hospital setting or  privately - mundane though it may sound then  without doubt stay at home but if one happens to be scientifically minded, inquisitive and is fortunate enough to be offered a place at prestigious names like Oxbridge, Imperial or the equivalents in the States ( though for the latter one usually is at a more mature age with a clear intent already on his or her career), my advice is  - grab it for it opens a lot more opportunities  - where else in HK would you see truly world-famous clinician with prestigious prize like Lasker under his or her belt ? With accolades like memberships from learnt societies such as the Royal Society or establishment like the National Academy of Science ? Or be in close proximity to world-renowned research facilities  where great minds are nurtured ?  Or at the forefront of cutting-edge new technologies and discoveries ? The MRC Laboratory right outside the clinical school at Cambridge is home to 9 Nobel prize winners alone ! Academic medicine, especially at great place like Oxbridge or Ivies are a  world apart from more familiar names closer at home and the networking could open up opportunities not only across the Atlantic but also across the globe as well.  Shortsightedness  is the only word that spring to my mind at the time of writing if one only looks at the monetary return in one's profession - for nothing is guaranteed in the long run - especially with the situation in HK now when one is a neighbour to an imploding regime.  Things may look good when the fiscal policy is loose but at lean times - remember the days just after the handover ......

That's just my 2 cents but hopefully it would help to debunk some myths.

4eyesDad

回復 odelia_ho 的帖子

There really are too many unspecific benefits about studying abroad, especially if one can get into a leading school like Eton and a leading university like Oxford.

A recent example is Sir John Gurdon, who went to Eton and Oxford and, in 2012, won the Nobel Prize in medicine.

At school, he was hopeless at science. He went to study Latin and Greek at Oxford. He then went on to read zoology. Obviously he developed a talent in science quite late, around 20s.

Had he been a Hong Kong person, he would have been assigned to an uninspiring university (if any) for an associate degree and then struggled all his life for a meaningless living in order to fund a 500 ft home mortgage.

However, this is not the case in the UK. Here is an extract from Wiki about him:

"....John Gurdon attended Eton College, where he ranked last out of the 250 boys in his year group at biology, and was in the bottom set in every other science subject. A schoolmaster wrote a report stating "I believe he has ideas about becoming a scientist; on his present showing this is quite ridiculous."[9] Gurdon later had this report framed; he told a reporter "When you have problems like an experiment doesn't work, which often happens, it's nice to remind yourself that perhaps after all you are not so good at this job and the schoolmaster may have been right."[10]
...."

peter_pan

Perhaps it is because there are more scope for international cooperation in the legal profession. There is certainly better job prospect for oversea law graduates compared with medical graduates as many international law firms prefer oversea graduates with better English.

ANChan59

回復 阿飯 的帖子

Thanks for your detail info.

11Daddy

"Shortsightedness  is the only word that spring to my mind at the time of writing if one only looks at the monetary return in one's profession" - cannot agree more.

odelia_ho

4eyesDad 發表於 12-11-7 20:51
回復 odelia_ho 的帖子

There really are too many unspecific benefits about studying abroad, especial ...

4eyesDad,
Thank you for your sharing

Shootastar

回復 阿飯 的帖子

Thank you for your thorough information. However, I do have the following observations:

(1) To study at Cambridge would need about $3.0 Million (not yet to include inflation during the 6 year course). Not every one could afford to study at Cambridge even if you are admitted unless you have the scholarships.

(2) Unless the student wants to settle in UK, he has to take the licentiate examination in Hong Kong. He could not do so unless he has a full licence granted by the UK medical council. If we take into account the one-year training in UK, you need to spend about $3.5 million to $4.0 million for 7 years in U.K. Again money is another question.

(3) Assuming one has the money to finish his degree with Cambridge, he has to consider the chance of being able to practice in Hong Kong. The passing rate of the licenciate examination is less than 30% even for UK candidates.

(4) If you have good academic results, you are probably able to secure a job in London or Addenbrooke's Hospital. However, most of the foreign students end up in a NHS hospital in a small city. The experience and training he may have is not as good as one thinks.

(5) Not every medical student is money-minded. To the contrary, many of them are passionate about the profession because they could want to take care of others. If there is a chance that he is admitted by the local medical schools, he could practice as soon as he completes his internship.There is no uncertainty hanging around him as to his future if he studies at Oxbridge.

(6) The local medical education is as good as any medical school in UK (including Oxbridge) as far as the basic education is concerned. If not, the qualification of local medical schools would not be recognised by the UK medical council. How good the medical research made by Cambridge is would not substantially affect its basic medical education to the undergraduates. Save the label of "Cambridge", I feel the substance of the Cambridge medical education is more or less the same as the local one.

(7) Regarding medical research, local medical schools are not as good as Oxbridge or other medical schools in USA. However, the local medical schools do have a good reputation on its researches. HKU's medical laboratory is named as the key State Laboratory. It was the first one to decipher the SARS. The UN delegates HKU to do 2% of the human genome. Bearing in mind that the great number of medical schools in the world, if the research standing of HKU is not as good as other leading medical schools, why UN would make such a commission to HKU? HKU recently conducted the first combined liver and heart transplant. HKU's spinal surgery is the world-renowned. Its research is in the forefront of the world.

(8) If a medical student is minded to take the academic or research path after his basic training, he could do it at an overseas top top university or local medical schools.

11Daddy

According to QS World University Rankings for Medicine: Oxford ( 2 ), Cambridge ( 3 ) and Imperial ( 9 )

阿飯

To ANCan59

My pleasure.

To 11Daddy,

Glad someone chime in with me.

To Shootastar

Thanks for taking the time to respond. My passing comments may appear snide in part and it really is not my intention at all to insinuate.

Back to the points you raised, they are all reasonable but if money is the primary concern here, I suppose the entire thread would have been a pointless exercise of discussing moot points. Overseas education is expensive, this is a universally known fact. The question is whether it's worth it or not.

If one is really passionate about medicine it doesn't matter where he/she ends up practising - the satisfaction should be the same regardless. Afterall the Hippocratic Oath obliges one to transcend the issues of creed, breed and race.

Taking the licentiate exam is a matter of choice - if my child finds it rewarding practising in an overseas country I would certainly support his decision. Coming back to HK may not be in his best interest in the long run for I personally feel that HK is becoming a bad place for living, let alone raising a family - politically it is depressing,  economically it is stifling, culturally it is rotting,  morally it is bankrupting, environmentally it is fast degrading. The only " saving grace" if you still call it is the reputation as a major financial hub where money is still generated, albeit one thrives solely on speculations nowadays. With a  brutal repressive regime up north trying to impose its whims via its installed puppets ignoring the well-being and wishes of the people here, who largely are an ignorant mass save a few, whose primary concern does not go beyond immediate gains or money, I fear for the worst to come.

Not everyone could become high-flier in his or her profession - and this simple observation also applies to the HK medical arena - here on our own turf only a handful of HKU or CU graduates could join the big teaching hospitals and work in a professorial unit for training. This is the harsh reality of competition and is the same everywhere. If a doctor really respects his work, I am sure he or she would still derive much satisfaction even working in a lesser hospital of importance, be it Tuen Mun  hospital or a district general hospital in the UK. Depressing thing is more and more experienced doctors are leaving the system as soon as they can to join the gold-diggers in the private sectors and sooner or later  the training system will be in tatters.

The fact that the basic medical qualifications from either HKU or CU are still recognized by the UK and most Commonwealth countries is no place for complacency  - and anyway, it is a British legacy in the first place of setting up a trustworthy and reputable assessment system here through largely the hard work of Prof McFadzean and Prof Todd both of HKU in the 70 and 80s who convinced the Royal College in the UK to finally delegate power locally to conduct the examinations and award professional qualifications. It is a hard-won privilege and the esteem and honour associated with such trust should be cherished, not tarnished - but with the dean and the chief of staff in the department of surgery both fallen from grace because of greed lately, and fraudulent practices downplayed I sense something rotting there - especially discomforting when the supposedly stalwart of morality and integrity behaved otherwise. It seems that as a race we Chinese corrupts rapidly in the face of money and power.

All medical schools across any former British colonies  are very much similar in their curriculua, be it  NSU in Singapore,  University of Auckland in NZ, etc. The crux is how and who deliver them - largely science-based, beside studying various subjects in great depth the pre-clinical course at Cambridge also equips its students at a very early stage the know-how to engage in lab work with numerous practical sessions as well as the capability for critical thinking, a merit from its unique supervision system, often conducted by world-class leaders in their respective fields. Such skills and mindset would prove essential in their third year when they would join a research team to engage in projects of their own choosing across a diverse range of subjects - even not necessarily related to medical sciences, for instance, one could even choose philosophy, computer science, management science etc. One's initiative is the beginning of endless possibilities and at Cambridge all one needs to do is to ask. Unearthing one's real potential is what makes Cambridge great. Furthermore, there is also the possibility to participate in a 1 year exchange program with MIT to get the most out of two great institutions on both sides of the Atlantic - where else would you find such stress on scientific research, original ideas combined with such flexibilities and possibilities as an undergraduate in a professional course ?

Just for your information, the original Human Genome Project was over almost 10 years ago - a project made possible by contributions from Cambridge firstly for the technological break through in sequencing technique and subsequently demonstration of the feasibility of analyzing the entire genome of an organism - both of which resulted in 2 Nobel Prizes for Cambridge. The on-going one you mentioned is a spin-off from the original one for detailed analysis and is a collaboration project amongst many universities across the globe which have the facilities in store for analysis. Participation is therefore more of a measure of hardware facilities, not technological or scientific breakthrough.

If you read about transplantation - you will also see Cambridge together with Pittsburgh are really what made the practices as we take for granted nowadays possible. Multi-visceral transplant is nothing new - the world's first combined  liver, heart and lung transplant was performed at Cambridge about 25 years ago and the world's first successful combined stomach, intestine, pancreas, liver and kidney transplant also happened there 18 years ago. Our transplantation expertise stemmed from the late 90s when a team led by Prof Fan learnt it from Australia whose technique originated from Cambridge and others. Anyway, the science and the know-how has been worked out by the aforementioned universities and transplantation is a routine procedure nowadays even in countries like Peru.

I did find the comment that concerns the discovery of the then novel virus - SARS-CoV a rather glossing over of the details - KY Yuen's association with the fame of being its discoverer and decipher is more by virtue of convenience than his actual involvement - the honour should really goes to Prof Peiris of HKU , who subsequently garners praise worldwide for isolating and identifying this new virus  - honours like a Fellowship of the Royal Society and Legion d'Honneur from France - not an easy feat had he been only merely involved. I did find that KY Yuen rather disingenuous when he did not refute the honour ( or may be  indeed it is the increasingly sloppy press to blame ?) - after all Yuen is a microbiologist by trade not a virologist ! By the way, Prof Peiris is a graduate from Oxford.

HKU is renowned for it expertise in the field of liver, nasopharyngeal and oesophageal  cancers by virtue of the fact that we have the highest incidence of those cancers in the world.

If one comes that far and is fortunate enough to be accepted by Cambridge to do medicine I suppose he or she should jump for the chance for it is a real eye-opener. I wish I had that opportunity when I was young.

CPU1995

My son also cannot agree anymore for the benefit of overseas education - the real eye-opener and exposure. Rather, he said that the academic standard in HK is higher than that in UK for secondary education.

I know a girl with IGCSE 6A米 given up the offer of Cambridge is studying Medicine in HK now due to financial consideration. Otherwise, she would study Cambridge without hesitation.

阿飯

回復 CPU1995 的帖子

I am a bit confused by your grammar but I gather what you mean, no sweat.

I cannot agree more with your son's observation that public examinations seem a lot easier in the UK or indeed in the western world as a whole at least up to secondary level - but one's academic capability is not limited by the syllabus and with easy access to knowledge nowadays, it only takes little effort to learn beyond the syllabus. Knowledge acquired this way out of your own volition is more precious than those intended only for the purpose of passing public examinations. I at least know of a few students from Winchester who traveled regularly to a nearby university to sit for lectures there. When one is passionate about a subject one looks beyond the artificial limit set by examinations. This may explain why despite an apparent dumbing down on standard, the western world still dominates in almost every realm of knowledge.

Talking about standard there is no dispute that the process of dumbing down also happens here back home. "A" level in the 70s when I took it was a lot harder and the same could be said with each successive passing decade. The other point I want to raise is that in the run-up to the handover and the few years following it the admission standard of the medical school here suffered a dramatic drop in standard so much so that you could earn an entrance ticket with results like 2 Cs 1 D etc. Despite the dread of falling standard, graduates from those years still mostly turn out to be competent doctors, and there has not been any rise in professional negligence or misconduct either. By all likelihood, these doctors are now forming the backbone in the middle hierarchy in the establishment teaching the next generation of doctors. It seems we Chinese place too much emphasis on the importance of examinations so much as that it only benefit the private tuition market and destroy our children's interest and joy in the pursuit of knowledge.

Shootastar

回復 阿飯 的帖子

Thank you for your detailed response. I do have the following comments arising therefrom:

Back to the points you raised, they are all reasonable but if money is the primary concern here, I suppose the entire thread would have been a pointless exercise of discussing moot points. Overseas education is expensive, this is a universally known fact. The question is whether it's worth it or not. [HK$3.5 to 4.0 million is not a small sum. Even if you work very hard, it needs more than 10 years to accumulate that amount of money (net of your family expenses].

If one is really passionate about medicine it doesn't matter where he/she ends up practising - the satisfaction should be the same regardless. Afterall the Hippocratic Oath obliges one to transcend the issues of creed, breed and race. [The Hippocratic Oath is an ideal one. In reality, one has to balance the work satisfaction against the working environment, the renumeration and the prospect of advancement.]

Taking the licentiate exam is a matter of choice - if my child finds it rewarding practising in an overseas country I would certainly support his decision. Coming back to HK may not be in his best interest in the long run for I personally feel that HK is becoming a bad place for living, let alone raising a family - politically it is depressing,  economically it is stifling, culturally it is rotting,  morally it is bankrupting, environmentally it is fast degrading. The only " saving grace" if you still call it is the reputation as a major financial hub where money is still generated, albeit one thrives solely on speculations nowadays. With a  brutal repressive regime up north trying to impose its whims via its installed puppets ignoring the well-being and wishes of the people here, who largely are an ignorant mass save a few, whose primary concern does not go beyond immediate gains or money, I fear for the worst to come. [Personally I also support my kids' decision as to their choice of permanent residency. The problems you mentioned are not faced by your kids or mine. They are faced by 7 million of Hong Kong people. If they choose to reside and practise here to follow their dreams of serving others, the problems you mentioned should not deter them from doing so, After all, it is a personal choice of immigration or not.]

Not everyone could become high-flier in his or her profession - and this simple observation also applies to the HK medical arena - here on our own turf only a handful of HKU or CU graduates could join the big teaching hospitals and work in a professorial unit for training. This is the harsh reality of competition and is the same everywhere.[It is well known that it is very competitive to gain any training post of your choice. However, I am sure that over 90% of the graduates would not compete for scientific research or academic route.]

If a doctor really respects his work, I am sure he or she would still derive much satisfaction even working in a lesser hospital of importance, be it Tuen Mun  hospital or a district general hospital in the UK. [Agreed.]

Depressing thing is more and more experienced doctors are leaving the system as soon as they can to join the gold-diggers in the private sectors and sooner or later  the training system will be in tatters. [I think the market force would have an important part to play. If the economy is not good, I am sure that many experienced doctors would choose to stay in the public sectors  One cannot complain that the experienced doctors should stay in the public sector if they have choices. So long as our training system could provide sufficient doctors of similar levels of skills, the exodus of experienced doctors may not be a big problem.]

The fact that the basic medical qualifications from either HKU or CU are still recognized by the UK and most Commonwealth countries is no place for complacency  - and anyway, [It is not a matter of complacency. It is a matter to reflect the standard of our basic medical education.]

it is a British legacy in the first place of setting up a trustworthy and reputable assessment system here through largely the hard work of Prof McFadzean and Prof Todd both of HKU in the 70 and 80s who convinced the Royal College in the UK to finally delegate power locally to conduct the examinations and award professional qualifications. It is a hard-won privilege and the esteem and honour associated with such trust should be cherished, not tarnished - but with the dean and the chief of staff in the department of surgery both fallen from grace because of greed lately, and fraudulent practices downplayed I sense something rotting there - especially discomforting when the supposedly stalwart of morality and integrity behaved otherwise. It seems that as a race we Chinese corrupts rapidly in the face of money and power. [The scandals should affect the reputation of HKU's medical school, no doubt.

All medical schools across any former British colonies  are very much similar in their curriculua, be it  NSU in Singapore,  University of Auckland in NZ, etc. The crux is how and who deliver them - largely science-based, beside studying various subjects in great depth the pre-clinical course at Cambridge also equips its students at a very early stage the know-how to engage in lab work with numerous practical sessions as well as the capability for critical thinking, a merit from its unique supervision system, often conducted by world-class leaders in their respective fields. Such skills and mindset would prove essential in their third year when they would join a research team to engage in projects of their own choosing across a diverse range of subjects - even not necessarily related to medical sciences, for instance, one could even choose philosophy, computer science, management science etc. One's initiative is the beginning of endless possibilities and at Cambridge all one needs to do is to ask. Unearthing one's real potential is what makes Cambridge great. Furthermore, there is also the possibility to participate in a 1 year exchange program with MIT to get the most out of two great institutions on both sides of the Atlantic - where else would you find such stress on scientific research, original ideas combined with such flexibilities and possibilities as an undergraduate in a professional course ?[Certainly Cambridge would provide a good foundation to the medical students if they pursue the academic or scientific research after their basic medical education. The question is how many Cambridge medical graduates choose the academic and scientific research route? If one chooses to take the scientific research or academic route in Hong Kong, HKU also provides a 8-years PhD/MBBS program to him. After he completes the pre-clinical education, he would proceed with PhD course, doing scientifc researches. He will also have the chance of attending USA leading universities to do the researeches as well.]

Just for your information, the original Human Genome Project was over almost 10 years ago - a project made possible by contributions from Cambridge firstly for the technological break through in sequencing technique and subsequently demonstration of the feasibility of analyzing the entire genome of an organism - both of which resulted in 2 Nobel Prizes for Cambridge. The on-going one you mentioned is a spin-off from the original one for detailed analysis and is a collaboration project amongst many universities across the globe which have the facilities in store for analysis. Participation is therefore more of a measure of hardware facilities, not technological or scientific breakthrough.[Thank you for the information. Anyway it reflects HKU's medical school is still amongst the top medical schools in the world. I could not recall its ranking exactly, but I believe that it is around 30 in QS ranking. For your information, HKU's chemistry department is ranked 9 amongst the world. This shows that HKU's chemical scientifc researches are as good as the leading universities in the world. The Chemistry Department has run a number of medical researches collaboratively with the medical school of HKU.

If you read about transplantation - you will also see Cambridge together with Pittsburgh are really what made the practices as we take for granted nowadays possible. Multi-visceral transplant is nothing new - the world's first combined  liver, heart and lung transplant was performed at Cambridge about 25 years ago and the world's first successful combined stomach, intestine, pancreas, liver and kidney transplant also happened there 18 years ago. Our transplantation expertise stemmed from the late 90s when a team led by Prof Fan learnt it from Australia whose technique originated from Cambridge and others. Anyway, the science and the know-how has been worked out by the aforementioned universities and transplantation is a routine procedure nowadays even in countries like Peru.[The point I stressed is that HKU's transplantation technique, if not better, should be as good as others.]

I did find the comment that concerns the discovery of the then novel virus - SARS-CoV a rather glossing over of the details - KY Yuen's association with the fame of being its discoverer and decipher is more by virtue of convenience than his actual involvement - the honour should really goes to Prof Peiris of HKU , who subsequently garners praise worldwide for isolating and identifying this new virus  - honours like a Fellowship of the Royal Society and Legion d'Honneur from France - not an easy feat had he been only merely involved. I did find that KY Yuen rather disingenuous when he did not refute the honour ( or may be  indeed it is the increasingly sloppy press to blame ?) - after all Yuen is a microbiologist by trade not a virologist ! By the way, Prof Peiris is a graduate from Oxford.[No matter it is Prof Yuen or Prof Peiris, they are from the HKU medical faculty.]

HKU is renowned for it expertise in the field of liver, nasopharyngeal and oesophageal  cancers by virtue of the fact that we have the highest incidence of those cancers in the world.[In fact, HKU has made a lot of advancements and contributions on these areas.]

If one comes that far and is fortunate enough to be accepted by Cambridge to do medicine I suppose he or she should jump for the chance for it is a real eye-opener.[Personally I know a Cambridge graudate who studied medicine after 1997. He wanted to practice in Hong Kong but is unsuccessful due to the fact that he has failed in the licentiate examinations for 3 times. After all it is his choice. He was also admitted by HKU then.]

I wish I had that opportunity when I was young. I do not have the opportunity when I was young because I could not afford to study abroad. I certainly would choose Cambridge if I had money and I was admitted if I was not required to take the licentiate examination. My daughter chooses to study in Hong Kong although she was also admitted by leading medical schools in UK. She made the informed decision after she balanced all factors. I supported her decision although I could afford to pay the expenses for her today.

Shootastar

回復 阿飯 的帖子

"Talking about standard there is no dispute that the process of dumbing down also happens here back home. "A" level in the 70s when I took it was a lot harder and the same could be said with each successive passing decade. The other point I want to raise is that in the run-up to the handover and the few years following it the admission standard of the medical school here suffered a dramatic drop in standard so much so that you could earn an entrance ticket with results like 2 Cs 1 D etc. Despite the dread of falling standard, graduates from those years still mostly turn out to be competent doctors, and there has not been any rise in professional negligence or misconduct either. By all likelihood, these doctors are now forming the backbone in the middle hierarchy in the establishment teaching the next generation of doctors. It seems we Chinese place too much emphasis on the importance of examinations so much as that it only benefit the private tuition market and destroy our children's interest and joy in the pursuit of knowledge."

If there was one or two students with 2Cs 1D admitted to the medical schools in 80+ or early 90+, they were exceptions. In 80+, many bright students would like to study portable degrees for immigration purposes. However, they attracted no more than 50 to 100 top students (only happened in one or two years). The medical students remained the top top top of its cohorts.

阿飯

I am glad that despite our differences in opinions, the discussion has so far been conducted in a civilized manner.

I suppose it's a matter of choices depending on one's priorities. But certainly at Cambridge as reflected by its course structure we could agree that in addition to preparing one to become a doctor the emphasis is also placed on one to becoming a scientist as well. If one intends to play a role at the forefront of medical and related scientific researches, no doubt, Cambridge would trump anytime any day and paves the way for a career in academia.

There 's no intention on my part to slag off or belittle the reputations or achievements of HKU. I am sure with the great British tradition it inherited it will for years churn out competent doctors to serve the territory.

As regards to the story it was from  the professor of Paediatrics at that time who confided in me that they've lost about 50% of  top-notched students and consequently they had to take in students with much much lower grades. He lamented to me then that they could not afford to choose only the crème de la crème any more. The situation only started to reverse a year or so following the handover, no doubt the fear of 1997 played a large part in the sudden reversal of fortune for the school then. Whether he was exaggerating I did not know but one thing I was sure was that the top students for several years all ended up overseas - and we are talking in the late 80s to early 90s when there would be at most 3 or 4 8"A" or 9"A" ers in HKCEE each year. HKCEE and " A" level was a lot harder then what we had now.

Anyway, all things being equal, pedagogical factors in consideration as well, a hard working and dedicated child would succeed equally whether he or she ends up  at HKU or other big names. A good doctor is not gauged by the name of his or her university nor his or her stellar academic records - he or she who listens with understandings, feels with his heart and defends his patient's interest and always put foremost the concerns of his patients is the best doctor. Sadly the opposite is more of the norms nowadays and I really feel sorry for those doctors ended up working for franchised clinic chain who have to double as salesmen for beauty products during or after consultations.

Free market economic force should not be allowed a free rein in every sectors. It corrupts when it can.

Shootastar

回復 阿飯 的帖子

I am glad that despite our differences in opinions, the discussion has so far been conducted in a civilized manner. [I am also glad that I can have a thorough discussion with you which are based on facts although we have different opinions in certain aspects. I hate others who vilify and maliciously attacks othersby distasteful comments or remarks.]

I suppose it's a matter of choices depending on one's priorities. But certainly at Cambridge as reflected by its course structure we could agree that in addition to preparing one to become a doctor the emphasis is also placed on one to becoming a scientist as well. If one intends to play a role at the forefront of medical and related scientific researches, no doubt, Cambridge would trump anytime any day and paves the way for a career in academia. [It is beyond doubt that Cambridge can equip one well if he chooses the academic or scientific research path.]

There 's no intention on my part to slag off or belittle the reputations or achievements of HKU. I am sure with the great British tradition it inherited it will for years churn out competent doctors to serve the territory. [I am certain that you have no intention to belittle any one. If I guess it correctly, you may be from HKU.]

As regards to the story it was from  the professor of Paediatrics at that time who confided in me that they've lost about 50% of  top-notched students and consequently they had to take in students with much much lower grades. He lamented to me then that they could not afford to choose only the crème de la crème any more. The situation only started to reverse a year or so following the handover, no doubt the fear of 1997 played a large part in the sudden reversal of fortune for the school then. Whether he was exaggerating I did not know but one thing I was sure was that the top students for several years all ended up overseas - and we are talking in the late 80s to early 90s when there would be at most 3 or 4 8"A" or 9"A" ers in HKCEE each year. HKCEE and " A" level was a lot harder then what we had now. [You reminded me that in 70+, you needed 9 points (3C, BCD or ACE) to be admitted to the only medical school in Hong Kong (if you had small luck. If you had 8 points (2B1D or ACD), you definitely had a place in the medical school.]

Anyway, all things being equal, pedagogical factors in consideration as well, a hard working and dedicated child would succeed equally whether he or she ends up  at HKU or other big names. A good doctor is not gauged by the name of his or her university nor his or her stellar academic records - he or she who listens with understandings, feels with his heart and defends his patient's interest and always put foremost the concerns of his patients is the best doctor. Sadly the opposite is more of the norms nowadays and I really feel sorry for those doctors ended up working for franchised clinic chain who have to double as salesmen for beauty products during or after consultations. [I can't agree with you more.]

Free market economic force should not be allowed a free rein in every sectors. It corrupts when it can. [This is another topic which attracts a heated debate. The more we debate, the more reasons will come out.]

ANChan59

As my boy will apply local Medic schools this year, even he didn't apply Cambridge Medic. Your discussions provided some useful info and thoughts for other consideration.

Mature discussion is wonderful and have my respect here.

4eyesDad

回復 阿飯 的帖子

My heart felt heavy when I heard a Hong Kong student chose HKU medicine instead of taking up a Cambridge medicine offer ostensibly because of recent unusual barrier to enter the local medical profession. I don't know whether cost may play a more dominant role in affecting the decision to forego the chance to study at Cambridge but I think we Hongkongers are having a raw deal comparing with SIngaporeans who may obtain full financial support from their government.

Shootastar

My personal opinion is that the medical licentiate examination should be set at a level with 50% passing rate. I understand that the passing rate of the overseas lawyer qualifying examination is around 70% each year.

11Daddy

"My personal opinion is that the medical licentiate examination should be set at a level with 50% passing rate. "
In that case, I would be more relieved.

11Daddy

Otherwise, my learned friends may suspect there is an ulterior motive.