P5的英文及數學科

Vernique2005

eviepa 寫道:
[quote]
Vernique2005 寫道:
eviepa:

更有趣的我兩天前見識到了﹗一本中學生用的英文GRAMMAR BOOK﹐ 成3CM厚﹐第一個考試就成本考﹗我問我的學生﹐為什麼要考了﹐你本書做都沒做過﹖

啊﹗第一到第四課是VERB TENSES﹐ 老師話以前學過﹐溫下就可以﹐第五到第七課是QUOTED SPEECH﹐ INDIRECT SPEECH﹐ 好簡單﹐自己看看就可以﹐最後幾課PHRASAL VERBS都是靠死記﹐所以都不用教﹗

好有型的教法﹗好斜膊的老師﹗

對於此故事，我的感想是香港老師太太太著重 Grammar，以取分數計，得 Grammar 者得天下，但諸位有沒有細想它的重要塞性有大？[/quote]

Grammar 是絕對重要的﹐將來孩子見工﹐沒到面試﹐就先見其COVER LETTER & RESUME﹐ 過了關考筆試﹐最後才見人。其實GRAMMAR 好﹐反映的是孩子的學習態度一直都是認真而小心的﹐有些人明知道文法守則﹐但又老是不小心﹐你想請他嗎﹖

再殘忍一點說﹐在英美﹐連一個native English speaker, 你都可以從他的口音﹐他的用詞﹐他說話時的GRAMMAR 看得出他的大概背景。。。這其實是好可怕的。。。看過一些論文﹐就是說在NEW YORK 不同的地區的人所用的字和文法有何差別。。。

我想﹐在這些情形下﹐GRAMMAR 是重要的﹐但就一定不是老師教英文的全部。可能是考GRAMMAR 較易給分罷﹐我都吾知。

eviepa

Vernique2005 寫道:
[quote]
eviepa 寫道:
[quote]
Vernique2005 寫道:
eviepa:

更有趣的我兩天前見識到了﹗一本中學生用的英文GRAMMAR BOOK﹐ 成3CM厚﹐第一個考試就成本考﹗我問我的學生﹐為什麼要考了﹐你本書做都沒做過﹖

啊﹗第一到第四課是VERB TENSES﹐ 老師話以前學過﹐溫下就可以﹐第五到第七課是QUOTED SPEECH﹐ INDIRECT SPEECH﹐ 好簡單﹐自己看看就可以﹐最後幾課PHRASAL VERBS都是靠死記﹐所以都不用教﹗

好有型的教法﹗好斜膊的老師﹗

對於此故事，我的感想是香港老師太太太著重 Grammar，以取分數計，得 Grammar 者得天下，但諸位有沒有細想它的重要塞性有大？[/quote]

Grammar 是絕對重要的﹐將來孩子見工﹐沒到面試﹐就先見其COVER LETTER & RESUME﹐ 過了關考筆試﹐最後才見人。其實GRAMMAR 好﹐反映的是孩子的學習態度一直都是認真而小心的﹐有些人明知道文法守則﹐但又老是不小心﹐你想請他嗎﹖

再殘忍一點說﹐在英美﹐連一個native English speaker, 你都可以從他的口音﹐他的用詞﹐他說話時的GRAMMAR 看得出他的大概背景。。。這其實是好可怕的。。。看過一些論文﹐就是說在NEW YORK 不同的地區的人所用的字和文法有何差別。。。

我想﹐在這些情形下﹐GRAMMAR 是重要的﹐但就一定不是老師教英文的全部。可能是考GRAMMAR 較易給分罷﹐我都吾知。

[/quote]

Vernique2005

我常覺得香港的英語教育有病，其中一病就是太太太著重文法 — 換句話來說便是忽略其他更重要的領域 — 捨本逐末。 (另一病是太著重默書)

香港很多家長/老師都有個如意算盤：多串生字，懂得的生字多了，便自動懂閱讀，自動懂寫作；再加上天天操練文法，寫文章便正確無誤了。這便是英語學習的全部。至於閱讀，看英語VCD，則可有可無。

翻開小學的試卷就可見到，文法佔英語總分數中一個很重的要的部分，大概40%吧，而我覺得最重要的Reading Comprehension只佔不到5%，其他55%左右放在dictation, listening, oral, writing吧。得文法者得天下，要在小學拿高分，壓根兒不須閱讀。於是乎一批又一批不懂閱讀的高分低能小學生，升上中一時才發現看不懂Science, Geography, History, EPA, English Reading Books, English Comprehension…。作文堂時發現無法表達自己的思想。

不加強閱讀，只管操練文法有甚麼問題？

1. 文法只是一些規則，引導我們寫出正確的英語，而本身並無任何實則內容。換句話說，文法只能錦上添花，不能雪中送炭。你英語能力高，若文法強，便如虎添翼；你語文能力低，文法再好也是徒然。

2. 文法與英語閱讀能力有很大相關性，閱過萬卷書後，Grammar 的Preposition, Article 等部份可以迎刃而解，其他的環節也只須花小量時間便可充分理解 — 事半功倍。反之，若只死記Grammar Rules ，一則花很多時間也不易記牢，二則記了後也很快忘掉  — 事倍功半。君不見我輩讀書時，大家費盡心力操練Grammar，但到頭來，你們朋友中，Grammar 算是得上好的有多少？為何不先弄好閱讀再回頭搞文法？

3. 語文當中有很多地方是文法顧及不到的，例如 Purse 和 Wallet 都可解作錢包，但我們放鈔票的只可以叫 Wallet 。 又例如 Meeting 和 Conference 都是開會，但用起來有很大分。為何要用 Solve the Problems, Overcome the difficulties不可以調轉用？

4. 有些較深的文法沒有強大的閱讀基礎根本無法理解，比如說，I used to + Gerund 為何不 followed by infinitive。本人在中學時根本完全不明白老師的講解，到後來閱讀多了，英語程高了才能理解箇中奧妙。

以上的不僅是我的想法，更己實行在女兒身上。我幾年前選擇了一間不須默書、測驗，不著重文法教育的學校給她。我只管每晚陪她看英文書，不須擔心分數、名次。 從小二開始到現在一年零十個多月間，閱讀超過1300本英文書，閱讀能力由去年一月的英語盲到現在每晚閱讀幾本中一深度的英文課外書。

我不是說文法完全沒用途、完全不須學，反之我最近破天荒地買了本文法書給女兒做，只因她的英語程度己到一定水準，可以教她初等文法，準備她學寫文章之用，有了強大的閱讀能力作後盾，她學文法的速度比同齡小朋友快得多，且愉快得多。

eviepa

marinayiu 寫道:
想請教一下, 我女兒明年讀英小, 但已有其他媽咪plan定明年便讓小朋友讀公文英及公文數, 說是會有系統地教受文法, 請問各位覺得有此必要嗎?

有時覺得現今d小朋友真是可憐, 應付學校的功課之餘, 仲有興趣班(如琴/畫), 仲要再加上公文等... :cry:

公文英及公文數堪稱填鴨的典範，日日操練，其悶無比。其用途大約相等於運動員服食類固醇，短期內確能將成績谷起，但長期而言，公文式對小朋友學習興趣的摧殘，則不容忽視。

你會選擇下一學期小朋友成績標青、而數年後成績低落，還是小朋友每年逐小逐小地進步呢？

uncleedward

Dear eviepa

I enjoyed reading your posts. Thanks.

I agree that English education in Hong Kong, particularly at primary level, is biased towards grammar teaching. However, if you look into the materials used by most schools, the grammar taught is easy. For example, at most schools, the most difficult tense covered is Present Perfect tense, not present perfect tense, not Present Perfect Continuous tense. When they go up to Form 1, the students are then taught simple present tense once again.

The problem as I see it is not too much or too little grammar being taught. The problem lies in the wrong priority in our teaching. From what you said, we can see the priority adopted by most parents or teachers. I can understand the logic why the teachers choose to teach grammar or vocabulary at schools (because it is the easiest way to teach). But I don’t understand why parents also adopt the same priority.

We can learn something from the current methodology on Chinese teaching at secondary schools. The emphasis is on “讀寫聽說”. What is our emphasis on English teaching? To me it looks like “讀讀讀讀”. You said “我最近破天荒地買了本文法書給女兒做，只因她的英語程度己到一定水準，可以教她初等文法，準備她學寫文章之用”, but why wait until she has already read 1300 books to start writing?

I have seen too many university graduates (some overseas graduates as well) being not able to understand English as spoken by native speakers, not able to speak properly and not even able to write a simple letter.

To me, learning English should start with listening for Chinese.  By understanding what native speakers say, we can learn English in a much easier way.  Next we learn to speak and write. Despite the feeling most students are weak in reading comprehension; reading is normally not a problem for Chinese students. Remember, at the end of the day, it is by how well we speak and write people judge our English.

I agree with Vernique2005”對要上英文學校的﹐最好的準備﹐是要讓孩子能夠利用英文這個語言去理解及吸收新的知識﹐這包含了會話﹐LISTENING﹐寫作﹐生字﹐語法和用英文的自信﹐可能還有很多。。。。。”

By the way, “I used to” should be followed by an “infinitive”. You probably meant “I am/was used to” in your sentence.  And your wife should be able to tell you that a purse can certainly be used for storing banknotes.

Lastly, I have to say that I admire you for what you have done for your kid. It is tremendous. I can certainly show to my daughters that they are not reading as much as they'd like to think.

莎朗

Hi all,

I'm a tutor at education centre for primary and secondary centre.  I am going to share my experience with you.

WYmom

From P.4 onwards, I would say students have to do a lot more writing apart from reading and listening, for both English and Chinese.  In local schools, what they do most is filling in blanks, which is really not useful at all.  I see that my daughter can read a lot, but when come to writing, she cannot write good passages with vivid wordings learnt.  So really need to write much much more and learn to improve.  

Just my thoughts.

珠仔

Uncleedward,

It's nice to hear from you on your views. Indeed the priority of most local primary schools has set to teach grammar, as my kid is also in local school, we'll need to follow the syllabus. During the leisure time in family, we as their parents can encourage the kids to read and write. My kid learnt to write journals under my guidance starting from K2. Now he (in P1) likes to write by himself (both Eng & Chi). Though the work he does is not grammatically correct and most of them are not having great content, this is just for his interests, without any pressure. During the leisure time, I did encourage him to speak in English and listen to my English (though not mother tongue).

All I want to say is, under the existing teaching system, we have no choice but to follow and yet, parents can do more for kids.

twokidsmum

我通常讓女兒一本書讀三次左右。她年紀較小，所看的書字數又開始多，不能看一次便完全理解內容，所以一年只看到500本左右。

我在她讀第一次前會大概說一下內容，用哪種tense等，並吩咐她一有不明白便要問，我再解釋不明白之處；第二次主要讓她自己讀，看完再問她知不知道部份字是verb還是adjective；第三次就交給工人陪她自己讀，因為我沒有時間。我間中會在她看熟書本內容後一起將故事人物或內容更改，她會玩得很開心。

我發覺她看書越多，她寫句子時文法及結構會越來越通順。有時略略提醒她一下便知道自己錯了甚麼。

我的英文程度不足以教她將來寫到生動富創意的好文章，現在只是見步行步。我不知道自己的教法適不適當，請指教。

eviepa

Uncleedward:

向來很喜歡看一眾英語高手如lochan和你等等的言論，過癮之餘，順便學學英語。很同意你的論點，但我有以下想法，希望和大家分享。

你我都覺得香港英語教育的 Priority 放得不對，但對此後果的嚴重性卻有不同感受。我覺得Priority 放得不對是英語教育失敗之其中一個關鍵。

香港大部分家長嗜分如命，對能拿高分的法門都趨之若騖。既然學校如此著重文法、串生字，此魔杖一舉起，大部分家長們都莫敢不從，命令子女將大部分時間放在較不重要的領域，忽略更重要的活動，如閱讀、看英語節目。長線而言，英語怎會好？

同意你的說法 “Despite the feeling most students are weak in reading comprehension; reading is normally not a problem for Chinese students.” 但這論點不能 apply 於英中的初中生上。你只要到書店員稍稍一看便可以知道小六與中一的英語有個極大的鴻溝。小女能於去年一年內將英語由文盲提升到能輕易看懂小六Comprehension。但今年花了十個半月，閱讀中一Comprehension仍不覺得輕而易舉。据我的觀察，大部分英中的一年級學生都不能在沒有字典的幫助下看懂Science, Geography………. 我甚至估計，近半的英中一學生，就算給他們字典也看不明課本。他們對學習的疏離是可以想像的。

亦非常同意你的說法 “Remember, at the end of the day, it is by how well we speak and write people judge our English.” 你本人英語能力極強，容易營造一個理想英語環境，英語當然judged by speaking and writing。但普羅大眾根本無法於小學階段同時培養小朋友聽、講、讀、寫。這四個元素中，講和寫是高層次。能講，定能聽；能寫，定能讀。若不能做到此四點，退而求其次，能聽、能讀就己經難得。不懂講、只稍懂寫，但假若能讀、能聽，中一大可以過關。反之只懂文法、只能串小許生字，但讀不懂課本那就大件事了。

“why wait until she has already read 1300 books to start writing?”  我是個爸爸，Evie's pa, 是家中的 major bread winner。日間博殺，晚上回家，跟跟小孩功課、陪陪她看書 (她看的1300本書我定要看一遍，否則怎樣到各間圖書館借書給她看？) 、晚晚講故事……真的無力顧得太多，文法不強，死唔得人，但閱讀及listening能力的提升就要越早越好，點知會唔會失驚無神被調上大陸做事，再也無法親自教授呀。另外，她明年(5年班)可能提早就讀英語環境班，大概須要英文寫作，所以便提前訓練她的文法能力。

另外，昨晚寫了幾句英語，獻醜了。我的問題在於太小機會寫、講。所以會考慮多在BK 用英語發表，操練英文。

Thanks for your comment!  

EviePa

marinayiu

eviepa,

多謝你及其他幾位的意見, 我也問了不少家長的經驗, 絶大多數小朋友都未能堅持讀下去, 可見公文數之操練過程, 實在難挨, 你說得對, 這是對小朋友學習興趣的摧殘.
可否請教一下, 有甚麼方法可提升小朋友的學習興趣?

uncleedward

Dear WYmom

I agreed with what you said but I think we should not wait until P4. It is never too early to write. In some kindergartens, kids are encouraged to write in the same way as described by 珠仔.


Dear twokidsmum

You're doing very well indeed.

uncleedward

Dear eviepa

Actually if I had not been hindered by my nonexistent Chinese inputting skill, I would have loved to write in Chinese.

You said “据我的觀察，大部分英中的一年級學生都不能在沒有字典的幫助下看懂Science, Geography………. 我甚至估計，近半的英中一學生，就算給他們字典也看不明課本。他們對學習的疏離是可以想像的。” It may be true depending on the areas and the schools. Recently I have come into contact with some band 1 students from Shatin. They are now studying F1 at various famous schools in Shatin. I got the feeling that they may have the problems you described because their English standard is falling short of most of my existing F1 students. Some of my existing students are only band 2 students in my area but so far I have not heard from any of my existing students that they have problems in reading the text books.

Before you may have mistaken thoughts about the point I am trying to make, I should bring out my point quicker. My point is: although there is an obvious gap between what students have learnt at primary schools and what students are expected to do at F1, most students will overcome the gap in a way much quicker than we think. When they go up to F2 or F3, most of them will start feeling comfortable with reading English textbooks. This can be evidenced by the fact that the HKCE results of 地區名校 are comparable to the traditional elite schools, if only not better.

But as I said in my previous post, still a lot of university graduates cannot speak or write properly. These graduates can certainly read well.

One example: it is just ridiculous to learn question tags without listening to and practise the corresponding intonation. When I taught this topic to my students, I just showed to them certain scenes from the Harry Potter films. Before you knew it, the students were already practising so keenly on their own that question tags are no longer just book knowledge to them.

Let’s not lose sight of the purpose of learning English. If your objective is more than just passing the exams, besides reading it, learn it by listening to it, learn it by writing it, and learn it by using it.

WYmom

It is obvious that texts of Science, Geography, History etc are more difficult for students due to those technical terms, which won't appear in the English books or stories.  I think it is more important to arouse their interest in these subjects first before reading texts.    So maybe doing some experients, watching related movies will help more.  After these, they can then be guided to read the texts.

Vernique2005

WYmom 寫道:
It is obvious that texts of Science, Geography, History etc are more difficult for students due to those technical terms, which won't appear in the English books or stories.  I think it is more important to arouse their interest in these subjects first before reading texts.    So maybe doing some experients, watching related movies will help more.  After these, they can then be guided to read the texts.

Generally agree! This is also what I noticed when searching for reading materials.  This made me incorporate non-fiction and informational texts into my students' reading programs.

If you go to the library, you can find many science texts/history texts that are written in English. Some of the them are very good.  I just found one that gives the "profiles" of sea animals.....

"Sea Horse"
Group: Fish
Order: Gasterosteiformes
Length 2.5-36cm (1-14 inches)
Weight: up to 8 ounces
Type of feeder: Carnivore (Meat eater)
Food:  plankton, crustaceans, tiny fish..
Where it lives: warm temperate oceans
Number of young...
Lifespan...
Other facts...."

Using these profiles, you may ask your child to write a paragraph about sea horse, or you may also ask him to do an oral presentation with the materials. All you need to notice is that he/she has to use the present tense because we're talking about factual information there.

Another suggestion I have is to teach the 5 senses as you read poetry with your child.  Ask them what the 5 senses are, and how the senses are conveyed in the poems....

This way, you're learning science and poetry together!

Even as an Eng Lit students, I always find non-fiction very interesting.  It's just so unfortunate that many students worldwide only read story books..

Vernique2005

uncleedward 寫道:

it is just ridiculous to learn question tags without listening to and practise the corresponding intonation. When I taught this topic to my students, I just showed to them certain scenes from the Harry Potter films. Before you knew it, the students were already practising so keenly on their own that question tags are no longer just book knowledge to them.

Let’s not lose sight of the purpose of learning English. If your objective is more than just passing the exams, besides reading it, learn it by listening to it, learn it by writing it, and learn it by using it.

    
Hihi uncleedward:
Once again learned from you! Thanks! I'll certainly try the Harry Potter scenes!

Vernique2005

eviepa:

你很努力啊﹗加油﹗

其實我都同意Uncleedward 所說的﹐等到讀了這麼多本書才學寫﹐可能遲了點。。。。你小朋友都五年班了﹐是時候學學自己看書﹐就算你不再旁邊﹐也可以叫她自己看﹐然後寫些閱讀報告給你啦﹗

另一個開始寫作和學文法的方法是找書裡的一些句子﹐從PRESENT TENSE 轉做PAST TENSE﹐ 從PAST TENSE 轉到PRESENT TENSE 或其他 (這次留意SUBJECT VERB AGREEMENT)

又或是可以從ACTIVE VOICE 轉做PASSIVE VOICE。。。

這方法的好處是﹐正如你所說的﹐句子結構一定沒問題﹐而在同一時間﹐小朋友可以專心做文法上的練習﹐做好後會好有成功感的(當然﹐做完你要讚讚她)

從PRESENT TENSE 轉PAST TENSE﹐對一些好點的小朋友來說﹐一年班就開始都可以﹐必要時﹐給他們一個LIST OF IRREGULAR VERBS﹐哪又可以訓練他們自己找答案﹐ 當時練下查字典LOR﹗

這樣﹐讀寫聽講的四部份﹐我們就做了一半了﹗由25% 升到50%﹐很好﹐很好~﹗

twokidsmum

我都試過讓女兒寫summary時由書本中的past tense 轉present tense，再提醒她甚麼時候要"+s/+es", 有時又會調轉, 但從沒有固意叫她去唸，佢又識喎！我想是看書多的好處。至於從active voice轉做passive voice……現在太深她不會明白.  好！明年試試。

我想請教各位高手，我的oral English麻麻，我女兒的oral English都是麻麻。可能要即時反應，說到亂糟糟！我發覺看書多只能令她懂多些vocabularies, 令oral English“有進步”，但仍跟written English有距離。除了找外籍老師跟她講講講，我還可以怎樣幫助她？

uncleedward,

我起初只知讀書好，但其他好處是我慢慢才留意到的。 多謝你的鼓勵, 我會繼續跟你們學習!

twokidsmum

twokidsmum

我家中有不少百科圖書，我兩個小朋友都很喜歡看。我間中會帶女兒去Science Museum和看天象廳節目，加深她的印象！

最近去海洋公園，她居然興奮地在鯊魚館告訴我見到hammer-head shark，在海洋館就見到sting ray，我自已都唔記得！

WYmom 寫道:
It is obvious that texts of Science, Geography, History etc are more difficult for students due to those technical terms, which won't appear in the English books or stories.  I think it is more important to arouse their interest in these subjects first before reading texts.    So maybe doing some experients, watching related movies will help more.  After these, they can then be guided to read the texts.

song

很高興見到各位高手在此談論教導英語心得，實感獲益良多，只想講聲謝謝!!

julietta

twokidsmom,

對於你的問題，"我的oral English麻麻，我女兒的oral English都是麻麻。可能要即時反應，說到亂糟糟！... 除了找外籍老師跟她講講講，我還可以怎樣幫助她？"，我想是沒有其他方法了，因為講英文真是靠平日多操練，練大個胆，同埋比時間去習慣；在我家中有菲傭，故此小朋友容易上口(儘管發音不準，文法不準，同埋非complete sentence)，我見大仔(現時六歲半)讀了本地傳統學校，都仍然沒有抗拒我用英語跟他交談，即使佢簡單地說Yes/No，都顯示出對聽都完全沒有問題，很多時我在家用英語跟菲傭交談，他都有搭口和八卦我們的說話。由此可見，一定要比佢習慣一下，講多D先至唔會口咥咥。