小 班 教 學 不 便 等 於 優 質 教 育

judy

"張文光讚成小班",
so if he is out of the picture, say if he is dead, both sides can agree that this small class is good?

你話有冇人咁無知呢？

warrrren

Could some kind souls tell me what do Cheung Man wong and Szeto Wah have to do with the merit of small classes?

warrrren

judy

Matt'smum 寫道:
[quote]
judy 寫道:
[quote]"張文光讚成小班",
so if he is out of the picture, say if he is dead, both sides can agree that this small class is good?

你話有冇人咁無知呢？[/quote]

so the point is: it is meaningless to get a politian involved into this discussion, "good is good, bad is bad," this "small class" is good or bad due to real facts, not due to presence of a polititian.

or copied from another BB parent:"噢! 我喜歡小班教學,完全不是因為想挽留那些剩餘教師. 根本是兩件完全不同的事."

so the discussion should be re-routed back to "小班教學 good or bad" forget about the politians.
[/quote]

吓，原来我舉出的論點和証据你睇唔到。還是性格使然呢？

warrrren

This is the research often quoted by "class size does not matter group": http://www.aucc.ca/_pdf/english/publications/researchfile/1995-96/vol1n1_e.pdf

It is fun to see how the US Department of Education changed its view when more money became available: http://www.ed.gov/offices/OESE/ClassSize/index.html

Many other researchers find that class size does matter. See
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/511631.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/167007.stm
http://www.bctf.bc.ca/Action/cuts/EdFunding/SpeakUp/ClassSizeMatters.html
http://www.nea.org/classsize/index.html
http://www.ecs.org/html/offsite.asp?document=http://www.ed.gov/offices/OESE/ClassSize/localsuccess.html
http://www.middleweb.com/ClassSize.html

More readings:
http://www.ecs.org/html/IssueSection.asp?issueid=24&s=Selected+Research+%26+Readings
http://www.cprd.uiuc.edu/schools/MSJ%20article%20May01.pdf

I do appreciate that money is a problem.  Arthur the King can tell me the government doesn't have the money right now.  That's fine.  But, what is good is good; what is bad is bad; what is ugly remains ugly.

Regards,
warrrren

alexlui

Hi everyone,

Please calm down, see, we have learned so much from each other.  By discussion, we have seen different aspects of the problem.  Let's continue this discussion with peaceful minds.  

alexlui

Hi warr

warrrren 寫道:
Could some kind souls tell me what do Cheung Man wong and Szeto Wah have to do with the merit of small classes?

warrrren

They make use of this issue to gain support from their fellow teachers and some parents.  Then they can continue to earn their living through misleading us.

warrrren

Hi Alex,

They make use of this issue to gain support from their fellow teachers and some parents. Then they can continue to earn their living through misleading us.

I do not like Cheung Man Kwong either.  But, my question is - what does he has to do with the merit of small classes?  Should we deprive our children of the benefits of small classes simply because people like Cheung will benefit from having class size reduced?

And, misleading who?  Is it not too arrogant to think that other people are more liable to be misled?  Cheung's tricks do not work on me the silly one.  Chances are than the smarter ones out there are not susceptible to his influence.  Let's forget about Cheung and focus on the relevant issues, viz

1. Is small class size a good thing?

2. If yes, what is the price to pay?

3. Are the benefits worth the price?

I can't see how Cheung Man Kwong can find his way into our thinking process.

A nice weekend to all,
warrrren

Eva

I like small class just according to my feeling and observation of the kids instead of those researches.

Please don't lie me that you will not mind even the out-of-school-actitivies center  put your kid into a class of 20 instead of a class of 10 with the same subject/fee.

CMK and his group more or less can alter this issue because they can make the Gov't in a mess if there is too much noise from public .  I think he and his group should think that small class is a good issue and many parents will support and evantually will be implimented at last.   

In view of the surplus teachers problem, he wants to take advantage by forcing the Gov't to carry out small class without concerning if the schools and tearchers are well equiped or not.  They only concern their rice bowls and ignor the public interests.  

This is not the first time they do for their own and that is why I hate them so much!!

Once more, the case of professionale to teach their professional subject shown their self-benifit-oriented again.

How come they are the teachers to teach our kids to be brave and honest enough to voice their views and opinions, on the contary, the headmasters talk on the back and hide themself.  They are afraid of showing their opinion/views even they feel there are still something not yet solved (if any as described my CMK).  They anounced to to ignor the questionaires instead of to encurage the members to be united to voice out their points in order to get the consideration or adjustment from the Gov't.  What they most concern is afraid of lossing the nearly in hands money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WYmom

Eva, agreed with you.  The teachers are not ready for small class, they just want to keep their rice bowl using this.  CMK is definitely a very poor rep. as he cannot present the case with the good intention and also do it at the wrong time.  He only appears to be very self-interested. :evil:

warrrren

Hi WYmom,

The teachers are not ready for small class,

So, are they more ready for big classes?

warrrren

Eva

It is not fare to compare those small classes in the lower levels with those large classes in most famous schools.

You dare to say that all the good results from the famous schools are performed by the teachers only?  But, I dare to say that, if in a public examination, a student gets 8A from a lower level school, say, 鮮魚行小學, will be much more touching and worth the school to celebrate compared with a student who gets 10A from a famous school.  I will much appreciate that 8A which are really performed by the student with the support of the school only.

We must admit that there is a lot of family supports for the students in most famous schools.  Most of them have private consultants (their parents or private teachers). There are not really big classes on the back of those big classes !!

You know, to do 10 sets of the exam papers from the famous schools are much better than to do 50 sets of the past exam papers from bookstores because most the questions for public exam are designed or assessed by those personnel from famous and high prestige schools.  What the students do during the classes will most properly appear in the public exam!!

By the way, I really want to know what results/factors the researchers taking into consideration to compare the class size??!!

judy 寫道:

回到小班教學的問題上，美國太遠了，說說香港吧，眼前所見，盡是大班勝小班的例子，絕大部分名校，都是大班，只有比較差的學校，オ是小班，如果小班遠勝大班的話，這些小班學校，一定大有進步的，但現實有嗎？再談國際學校，香港的英基，人數每班30多人，比其祖家，是大班了，但成績，比其祖家好超過20% 。

以上一段，當然不能用証明大班比小班好，因為很多factors 没有adjust到。外國進行了很多大型研究，昨天，蘋果社論引述美國一項研究(此項研究曾被視為支持小班之証据)，研究顯示小班對幼兒低班有益，但漸漸地，随著繼續follow-up，証明就算早期有益，到高班時也没有分别。

ykwong

先說研究報告:  (基本上我是反權威主義的)

報紙及教師往往斷章取義，各取所需以鞏固己方立場。不可靠。

更不可靠的是研究本身，不同老師、學生表現受太多外在因素影響，別說同一組人無可能接受二次同樣測試，即使同一老師面對不同組別學生反應亦會有差別。物理學上的"測不準定理"。

我對 social science類研究，最反感的是每每用一些常人無法理解的統計法則去分類數據。不介意看不明愛因斯坦或霍金的論文。不是寫給普通人看的。但很介意應用於普通人的學問，卻用普通人難以理解的語言去撰寫。那些是"應用"文，要給普通人(官僚)去執行及承受(市民)的。

小班，我會用常人的認知去想，不想用不是用常人語言寫出來的研究。教學理應相向，不是看海，就算看煙花，迫在海旁與坐在麗晶的露台房看，感受很不同。

學游水，不一定一對一便比一對六好。一對三十效果必差，是不是常人的理解？老師要照顧三四十人，怎可能會比照顧一二十人有更佳表現？群體推動力，亦對學習有幫助，不反對。哪處才是平衡點。不知道！個人相信介乎二十到三十之間，亦要視乎哪類學科及灌注方法。

方法：單向式灌注(填鴨)；互動式教學，哪樣更有效？不論。人數上，單向式應可容納較多人，但一對40及一對20的"常人理解"依然成立。

教師質素：根本母須討論。用任何模式，假設質素不變，都是教小好過教多，亦是常人理解。

錢：怎樣說，政府都要/會資助教育，香港政府教育開支比例真正能做到"世界級都會"水平。值不值？我亦覺不重要，反正300多億實冇走雞，浪費/或 cost-ineffectiveness 則可以肯定。不行學券制，大部份資助都是被消耗掉的。

這樣，已訂下之開支，究竟用來起美侖美奐之校舍好，還是施行(有限度之)小班好？我會揀小班。當然開支不單此二選擇，但開支既已固定，用在哪方面，反正都是浪費/消耗，可不揀些更有益於學習呢？
(我不知道還有甚麼選擇可作舉例，請提供/建議)

先決條件是現有否剩餘開支可供選擇？有的話，我贊成小班。

Ms.ChanChan

ykwong 寫道:
這樣，已訂下之開支，究竟用來起美侖美奐之校舍好，還是施行(有限度之)小班好？我會揀小班。當然開支不單此二選擇，但開支既已固定，用在哪方面，反正都是浪費/消耗，可不揀些更有益於學習呢？
(我不知道還有甚麼選擇可作舉例，請提供/建議)

先決條件是現有否剩餘開支可供選擇？有的話，我贊成小班。

用這些錢去提高教師質素算不算另一個選擇呢？ 我覺得這樣會更加直接令學生受惠。

但這些錢是用來培訓那些有教學熱忱的老師，而非津貼呃飯吃，或無緣入讀大學，求其到教育學院消磨幾年那些...

mattsmum

ykwong 寫道:
先說研究報告:  (基本上我是反權威主義的)

報紙及教師往往斷章取義，各取所需以鞏固己方立場。不可靠。

更不可靠的是研究本身，不同老師、學生表現受太多外在因素影響，別說同一組人無可能接受二次同樣測試，即使同一老師面對不同組別學生反應亦會有差別。物理學上的"測不準定理"。

我對 social science類研究，最反感的是每每用一些常人無法理解的統計法則去分類數據。不介意看不明愛因斯坦或霍金的論文。不是寫給普通人看的。但很介意應用於普通人的學問，卻用普通人難以理解的語言去撰寫。那些是"應用"文，要給普通人(官僚)去執行及承受(市民)的。

小班，我會用常人的認知去想，不想用不是用常人語言寫出來的研究。教學理應相向，不是看海，就算看煙花，迫在海旁與坐在麗晶的露台房看，感受很不同。

學游水，不一定一對一便比一對六好。一對三十效果必差，是不是常人的理解？老師要照顧三四十人，怎可能會比照顧一二十人有更佳表現？群體推動力，亦對學習有幫助，不反對。哪處才是平衡點。不知道！個人相信介乎二十到三十之間，亦要視乎哪類學科及灌注方法。

方法：單向式灌注(填鴨)；互動式教學，哪樣更有效？不論。人數上，單向式應可容納較多人，但一對40及一對20的"常人理解"依然成立。

教師質素：根本母須討論。用任何模式，假設質素不變，都是教小好過教多，亦是常人理解。

錢：怎樣說，政府都要/會資助教育，香港政府教育開支比例真正能做到"世界級都會"水平。值不值？我亦覺不重要，反正300多億實冇走雞，浪費/或 cost-ineffectiveness 則可以肯定。不行學券制，大部份資助都是被消耗掉的。

這樣，已訂下之開支，究竟用來起美侖美奐之校舍好，還是施行(有限度之)小班好？我會揀小班。當然開支不單此二選擇，但開支既已固定，用在哪方面，反正都是浪費/消耗，可不揀些更有益於學習呢？
(我不知道還有甚麼選擇可作舉例，請提供/建議)

先決條件是現有否剩餘開支可供選擇？有的話，我贊成小班。

agree, good argument,
common sense tells.

alexlui

Hi ykwong,

95% agree with you, but I can't agree with this statement below:
教師質素：根本母須討論。用任何模式，假設質素不變，都是教小好過教多，亦是常人理解.

Bad teachers can do more harm than good.  They can make students stop learning.  They can ruin the lives of many students. They must be eliminated.  

With small classes they can find a way to stay in the system because small classes need more teachers.  I prefer to let the bad schools die first and bad teachers will become unemployed.  Brilliant teachers can always find a way out.  

alexlui

Hi warrrren,

In fact, I like small classes but is it possible to implement small classes without stopping the killing bad schools process? If not, I will prefer to keep bigger classes and let the killing continue.  I hate bad teachers, I don't want any students to suffer any more.  Bad teachers can ruin the lives of many students.  They can make students stop learning.  They can break many students' hearts. What will be your choice?

1. A class of 40 in a good school
2. A class of 20 in a bad school
3. A class of 20 in a good school

If you can't choose 3 then will you choose 1?  

I hate Cheung Man Kwong because he is the representative to promote small classes in order to let all (good and bad) teachers  to keep their rice bowl.

alexlui

小班教學與茶餐廳

忽然想起一個簡單的比諭,香港人喜歡到茶餐廳食嘢,你會不會進入一間人小但不清潔,食物難食,員工態度惡劣的茶餐廳食嘢. 另一間食物美味,服務好,但人多.你會如何選擇? 有錢梗係去高尚食府啦(如漢基國際學校). 你們會否叫政府立例限制茶餐廳食客人數令做得十分差的茶餐廳繼續生存? 令做得好的茶餐廳減小人客數目. 李卓人也沒有這樣做. 我們只會不去做得十分差的茶餐廳,等他們被市場淘汰.

現在那些正處於被殺校邊緣的校長正運用他們的影響力去制止受歡迎的學校多收學生. 在六月的統一派位之後未能選取心儀學校的家長將會面對更多困難, 己有校長表明不會多收學生. 更多學生只能入讀不理想的學校. 本人也喜歡小班教學,但在好學校難入的情况下,我情願接受大班的壞處. 雞校有如虎穴龍潭,我情願學生擠在理想的學校中,也不願他們被犧牲. 我情願那些壞教師留在家中領取綜援,也不想他們留在學校教壞學生. 壞教師不只教不好學生, 他們人格上的缺陷只會令壞學生更壞, 縱容壞學生欺凌其他學生, 好學生也難在這些學校有發展.

學卷制度便可以令壞學校被淘汰. 在自由競爭的情況下我們便不需要教改. 就像我們不需要教廚師煮菜. 因為我也不能煮一手好菜. 同樣我們又是不是教育專家呢?