小班教學

evianh2o

回復 madscientist 的帖子

Agree.

"Small-class teaching" is only one of the relatively less radical ways to improve the current system.
But of course, a total reform is a must to address the problems in the current system.
Such reform should include, but not limited to:
- Better manage direct-subsidy schools (直資學校)
- Promote quality of 津校
- Build more international schools
- 學位分配 mechanism
- Workload and quality of teachers
- Design of curriculum and syllabus
- Exams' format
- Increase university degrees
- Fix 副學士
....and many others.
Sadly speaking, it encompasses every aspects of the education system.

To make all these happen, the govenment, parents, schools, teachers and other stakeholders need to work togerther...all for better education and future for our kids.

ngsmum

我覺得香港教育搞得不好，其中一個很重要的原因是大環境，經濟太過單一；太過集中於金融地產炒賣，再來就是三師；行頭太窄，人人覺得就只有爭相擠入這些行業才會出人頭地賺大錢買到樓養到家安身立命。為甚麼我們對待老師丶作家丶出版編輯，待遇不能好一點？這些都是很高尚的職業啊；可年年我們的高考狀子，選科都離不開商業金融類丶三師類，鮮有其他的。我們做家長的眼光想放遠放大一點。。。但大環境使然，還是要還原基本步。
另外，收生不足要殺校的政策也是罪魁禍首，我覺得係幾乎令所有學校都走上＂求學只是求分數＂的路，要收到生就要升中好，要升中好就要成績好，要成績最立竿見影的方法就是谷谷谷。

記得中西區有一間學校因收生不足，因而錄取沒有學校肯收留的新移民；因學生少，老師能夠充分照顧學生的需要及發展，令新移民學生得傑出學生奬，可是這樣一間學校因師生比例太大被評為浪費資源，還是瀕臨殺校；政府以這樣的心態管理學校丶辦教育，小班教學的好處量化不了，又怎會看得到。
記得當年討論中學縮班，有議員問教育局長為甚麼中學不能搞小班，好記得，佢一句話，這是行政主導。當年小學也是死不行小班，後來怱然又行了，都是長官大人的意志說了算。。。
無錯小班教學要實行有很多難題，但以香港的富裕程度，我看不出有show stopper（或者最缺的是土地！！）, 行不了，不是無能力，是沒決心，不肯用力。

ngsmum

madscientist 發表於 12-1-27 22:18
你說得對，香港整体來說是富裕，要多點投資教育，相信反對的人不多。問題是如何投資才合理。

坦白說，你認 ...

當然單是減少人數不能解決所有問題；不過我覺得起碼是改善教師待遇的一種。師生比例較好，老師工作量輕點正常點，多點時間闗顧學生，我相信得益的是學生（當然，又是很難量化的）。

同時，我們是追求一步到位，還是循序漸進？我相信後者較容易。減少師生比例，讓老師有時間進修學習並實踐小班教學的技巧。（或者我想的太簡單？？）

至於現在教師校長的手法和心態。。。很難說，我想有一部份是制度逼成，如ＴＳＡ，沒錯不會計算在個別學生頭上，但教育局怎樣運用得來的數據呢？有沒有對學校施壓呢？對殺校有沒有影響呢？不得而知。另外，我亦想信，很多教師校長對教育是有心的，只是制度工作量等等令他們難以發揮。

1234ats

ANChan59 發表於 12-1-26 11:18
回復 evianh2o 的帖子

I know so many educators use Finland as an example, but seldom talk about rele ...

I don't have figures on hand but I don't think HK per capita on average spends less than Finland on education.Just see how many kids study overseas and in International schools, and how much our society is spending on tuition. So money is not the real issue.

I agree we should start to do something for our kids first rather than waiting for education reform, as reforms can be painful and slow since politics is very often inevitable.

For those parents who find huge pressure from their kids' schooling, I do highly recommend them to seriously look into Finland's approach. Their way is much more effective and efficient than ours. Their kids don't have homework and frequent dictation. But I think their 12 year old kids probably get higher marks than our P.6 kids if they are asked to do our P.6 TSA English paper, without much tuition and practice.
So why not learn from them so that our kids can GET HIGHER MARKS when not caring about marks and with much less effort.

To have effective education, we need to first spend lots and lots of effort to understand every kid's personality, ability and interests BEFORE we stress on high marks. Finland's teachers play that role. They only have classwork but no homework. The teachers monitor their students during classwork.This helps them to understand  their students' strength and weakness.

Our kids have much homework. Our teachers have heavy workload to mark the homework. But just by marking the homework can the teachers understand how the kids approach a problem and what difficulties the kids are facing? How many of our parents, teachers or tutors seriously treat every homework to see what and how the kids can be benefited from doing that homework?  I can see many kids are not learning anything when they do their homework or drilling exercises.

It is also important to understand the elements or quality which lead to good results in each subject, if we want high marks. For example many kids who are excellent in addition and subtraction are not necessarily good at mathematics.

We should learn a lot from Finland before we adopt small class teaching in HK.

ANChan59

1234ats 發表於 12-2-1 00:25
I don't have figures on hand but I don't think HK per capita on average spends less than Finland on ...

1234ats
Thanks so much for your reply, as I am out of town, I will share some thoughts on your remarks.

ANChan59

evianh2o

非常好的討論！
我「研究」了香港教育和家長心態好一陣子，觀察到幾個「現象」
1. 大家(包括政府、學校和家長)都認為香港教育出了問題，但大家常把問題歸究是資源問題，其實談資源之前，有沒有認真想過出問題的根源其實是教育的方向和方法。
2. 我好想大家知道錢對於香港政府真的不是問題，我們的政府真的非常非常有錢。只是吝嗇投資於對香港未來有深遠影响的教育。大學學額十幾年冇加過是事實。
3. 政府、很多校長和家長都質疑我們教師的質素，但其實我們的教師有幾不濟呢？可能我比較幸運，所接觸到的教師都非常好。而且我相信部份對教師質素的質疑是因為制度迫成的，有部份教師也是有心冇力。

大家點睇？

ngsmum

回復 1234ats 的帖子

1234ats, 你說的很闗鍵, .  這也令我想起,其實香港也有一些私立小學正正是這種模式, 我指的是他們也是行本地課程, 跟政府派位, 小班教學之外,還有雙班主任制, 老師有很多空間時間跟學生相處, 了解每個學生的強弱, 因材施教, 甚至個別輔導, 也等別闗顧學生的情意發展; 强調在校完成大部份功課, 不重大量家課抄寫. 不過私立小學,學費高昂,不是人人負擔得起; 而讀私立小學,原來也有風險,隨時停辦失學也未可知. 如果大家有留意新聞, 近半年正正有一間這樣的私立小學有遷校停辦風波, 因小兒就讀幼稚園部, 今年考小一, 感受特深!

而這家小學, 歷年派位也很不錯, 家長口碑載道, 但它卻並不特別受歡迎, 入讀人數不多, 我想有數個原因: (1) 規模小, 名聲不夠響, 在香港人人追捧名校下，沒有多少人會留意它；(2)沒有好的直屬或聮繫中學，家長怕升中又再來一次考學校; (3) 學費高昂；本來因著出生率回升而近年家長對考小學也特別緊張，收生人數顯著回升，可是又突然發生遷校停辦風波，嚇走了不少人及後來者。這才是致命傷。

我想說的是, 課程是一件事, 師資我們是有的, 校長老師的執行力是有的.例子也不止一家，如我之前曾提過的瀕臨殺校的中西區津校，盡收新移民特殊學生，他們有很多放棄的理由，但他們沒有，反而教出傑出學生。。。

這些學校，校長老師們都是有心有力的。但問題是，為甚麼他們都成不了主流？

我想社會主流的價值觀是原因，政府教育局的因循也是原因，兩者再互為因果而形成今天的局面；我們很須要有人來打破這個惡性循環的局面。

ANChan59

回復 1234ats 的帖子

Here is the link related to Finland Education from wikihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Finland

Which explained quite detail about the system, from pre-nursery to life long education, compulsory and voluntary education, their philosophy....... pretty interesting.

Related to education budget per capita, Finland may be around three times more than HK (HK$54.5 Billion 2012-13, 7.5 M population; Finland Euro 11.1 Billion 2009, 5.4 Million population.)

Finland follows a great strategy, public funded to build the education foundation years first and spend relative less in Tertiary education. For us just totally opposite, spend a lot in university, very little in pre-nursery. Now, it's not the right timing to talk about that as more and more 雙非 come to HK....... may be political incorrect.

ANChan59

回復 1234ats 的帖子

1234ats

As promised, my sharings as follow:

_____________________________________________________________

I agree we should start to do something for our kids first rather than waiting for education reform, as reforms can be painful and slow since politics is very often inevitable. (Our Royal responsibilities... yes, take time. May take 25 years before we can see the actual outcome.)

For those parents who find huge pressure from their kids' schooling, I do highly recommend them to seriously look into Finland's approach. Their way is much more effective and efficient than ours. Their kids don't have homework and frequent dictation. But I think their 12 year old kids probably get higher marks than our P.6 kids if they are asked to do our P.6 TSA English paper, without much tuition and practice. (Parents need paradigm shift on knowledge acquiring, skills building..... not just marks. Tuition more to assist students to catch up and let go for independent study, that's what I did as tutor when I studied in HKP. Finland does it in class due to class size and program design and teacher caliber and training.)

So why not learn from them so that our kids can GET HIGHER MARKS when not caring about marks and with much less effort. (18% vs 60%+ post secondary admission rates....... Their and our system is voluntary in post secondary, but as parents we treat it compulsory. Some parents still treat SPACE Associate Degree as HKU......)

To have effective education, we need to first spend lots and lots of effort to understand every kid's personality, ability and interests BEFORE we stress on high marks. Finland's teachers play that role. They only have classwork but no homework. The teachers monitor their students during classwork.This helps them to understand  their students' strength and weakness. (That's the major issue in HK, our education spending like reverse pyramid, we spend very little in pre-nursery...... I talked to the Pro Vice-Chancellor of a local university in professional capacity, why spend so many hours in English and Chinese in the new 334 programs, we should do that at junior levels, not tertiary level. He admitted that the current education policy is upside down... Parents' role is equal important as teachers.)

Our kids have much homework. Our teachers have heavy workload to mark the homework. But just by marking the homework can the teachers understand how the kids approach a problem and what difficulties the kids are facing? How many of our parents, teachers or tutors seriously treat every homework to see what and how the kids can be benefited from doing that homework?  I can see many kids are not learning anything when they do their homework or drilling exercises. (I learnt something from my son...... he wrote a bit less essay compared with original 334, teachers will go through ideas, organization, and presentation of the essay with him, less assignment, more in-depth writing skills and communication, after submitting the essay, he also need individual presentation of his ideas based on the essay. Quality >>>> Quantity)

It is also important to understand the elements or quality which lead to good results in each subject, if we want high marks. For example many kids who are excellent in addition and subtraction are not necessarily good at mathematics. (Agreed, problem solving and applications are equal important....)

We should learn a lot from Finland before we adopt small class teaching in HK. (Small class education is PTU's mandate for teachers' job security >>>> education quality.....)


Shall we organize a Parents Union to voice out our concerns to counter act the bureaucrats and teachers union and funding organizations like churches and association


ANChan59

ANChan59

Absolutely correct

evianh2o

大家都講得好好。
容許我補充吓，我地政府對中學和大學投入很多，其實係一種錯覺。
中學多係因為轉學制而需要使的錢；大學多亦係因為轉制同埋猛烈泵錢於研究方面，對改善教學只係幫助極之有限。

Re AnChan: You ve good suggestion to setup a parent union, for those who care about our kids' education n the future of HK. And we should advocate "workable" solutions to the govt. from parents' perspective. I am supportive, but how do we start off?

Anyone any idea?

ANChan59

回復 evianh2o 的帖子

evianh2o
Do you know the split of funding allocations? like EDB, ED, primary, secondary, tertiary (academic and vocational), postgraduate........ will be very interesting.

I have no detail idea about " Parent Union " and I am not sure how to start.

Furthermore, I need to be careful about the legal issue to discuss further in EK, if it may involve legal implication ........... I will PM you later.

ANChan59

1234ats

ANChan59 發表於 12-2-2 08:43
回復 1234ats 的帖子

Here is the link related to Finland Education from wikihttp://en.wikipedia.org/ ...

Thanks for sharing.
I got the figure from the web that HK spend 23% of GDP in education. Not sure if it's correct.
How much is Finland's in terms of GDP%?

The figures you quote are government spending. I believe HK private sectors spend a lot more in education than Finland.

1234ats

回復 ANChan59 的帖子

Thanks a lot for the reply.






"So why not learn from them so that our kids can GET HIGHER MARKS when not caring about marks and with much less effort. (18% vs 60%+ post secondary admission rates....... Their and our system is voluntary in post secondary, but as parents we treat it compulsory. Some parents still treat SPACE Associate Degree as HKU......)"




To enter university in most cases you need high marks. But to get high marks one has to do that effectively and efficiently, no matter how low the university admission rate is. There are efficient learners all over the world we can learn from. And Finland has set an excellent example for our parents and educators. In fact I have not spent much time to understand the details of Finland's education system. But their approaches align with what I always believe: focus on upgrading oneself rather than high marks. Once you have well equipped yourself the marks will be with you.
That is my own experience and I'm teaching my son in this direction.
Unfortunately in Hong Kong many popular ways to get high marks cannot actually help upgrading our kids. That is our biggest problem. Much of our kids' effort is waste of time in my view.


Regarding the university paradigm, there is a lot I want to say. Unfortunately I'm a slow and inefficient writer. I need more time to organize myself first.

1234ats

madscientist 發表於 12-1-27 22:18
你說得對，香港整体來說是富裕，要多點投資教育，相信反對的人不多。問題是如何投資才合理。

坦白說，你認 ...

教育局讲明TSA不计分，只是用来了解学生和学校的进度， 原则上没有错，学校与家长实在没有必要操卷， 也不用担心。
我看过P.3与P.6的TSA卷，数学卷明显比几十年前我小学年代浅。 而中英文科也没有需要太多背诵。 看得出教育局也希望减轻学生压力，而不想以此作为竞争标准。只是部分学校与家长对此有不同理解，产生太多不必要的压力。

ANChan59

回復 1234ats 的帖子

Looking forward to see your sharing

ANChan59

回復 1234ats 的帖子

It reflects we don't trust our EDB

vincher

EDB 凈係推行一些 人棄我取或不切實際 的教育方案，例如：目標為本課程(TTRA，其後演變為 TOC)，外國0吾WORK 的在本地小學實行，結果0米告吹；強行母語教學，現在又要微調；中學文憑考試 ……全是廢物