取消中小學考試名次制度

shadeslayer

beastiebistro 發表於 22-11-1 18:31
雖然我完全唔贊成簡單化能力為IQ咁去睇，不過其實個圖（如果個methodology）係啱嘅，正正係證明咗唔係人人 ...

這圖亦說明有遠多於三幾個百分點的人有IQ天分做醫生。

ANChan59

shadeslayer 發表於 22-11-1 18:56
Rocket scientists?

I don’t know.

beastiebistro

shadeslayer 發表於 22-11-1 18:53
我的拒絕，和你的拒絕，沒有衝突。

現實只有三幾個百分點的學生可讀醫或律師或國際金融，我只拒絕相信三 ...

其實我從來冇講過得三幾個percent人有能力讀醫，不過我亦唔認為有50%嘅人有咁嘅能力。

我亦從來冇話應該阻止小朋友追夢，只係唔應該追家長嘅夢或者不切實際嘅夢。我都冇話追夢唔成就係人生失敗者，正如我一路都話職業其實無分貴賤。不過如果家長盲目支持追不切實際嘅夢而唔成功，夢醒嘅時候應該就係崩潰嘅時候。

其實我淨係話唔係人人都有能力做醫生（或者律師，或者富商，或者可以代入任何職業），no matter how hard we wish，no matter how pure our dreams，no matter how equal we want the world to be。個世界就係唔公平㗎喇，有人天生可以做醫生，有人窮一生精力都做唔到。李嘉誠天生就係李嘉誠，佢嘅員工就係幫佢打工㗎囉。

我大膽啲suggest，你驚訝女兒16至20能力翻幾翻其實係因為你唔夠了解佢（sorry if I overstepped the line，冇惡意），無有效引導。但咁唔代表人人都有你女兒嘅能力，唔係人人吽下都會快高長大。有啲人係得五呎就五呎（metaphorically speaking），點灌水拔苗都係得五呎。

再講一次我唔believe in growth mindset。我嘅前設係人人嘅高度都唔同，亦天生已定，去唔去到，幾時去到先係後天問題。

shadeslayer

beastiebistro 發表於 22-11-1 20:28
其實我從來冇講過得三幾個percent人有能力讀醫，不過我亦唔認為有50%嘅人有咁嘅能力。

我亦從來冇話應該阻 ...

我相信連阿女自己在16歲時都唔知自己能力，可能到依家都未知。

其實我同你睇法差別不大，可能只是半杯滿定半杯空的分別？

cow

beastiebistro 發表於 22-11-1 20:28
其實我從來冇講過得三幾個percent人有能力讀醫，不過我亦唔認為有50%嘅人有咁嘅能力。

我亦從來冇話應該阻 ...

I'm just an average student dreaming of becoming a doctor. Is it hard to become a doctor?

My pediatric professor told our class "you don't need to be intelligent to become a doctor, you need to be hardworking." He says, he encouraged his eldest son who is intelligent and smart to pursue engineering and younger son who was not as smart as his older son but hardworking to pursue medicine. Now that I have finished my medical school, I would agree with him to some extent.

My relatives wanted me to go to engineering college as I was very good at mathematics and physics. My biology scores were low, as I am an analytical thinker. But, I wanted to pursue medicine and my parents supported my decision. Now, I am a doctor, and going to start residency soon. So, how did I get this far. Sheer persistence, studying those books in and out, practicing board question again and again. Did my intelligence and smartness help? to some extent such as to retain what I read. Did studying day and night, and practicing questions helped? hell, yeah!

My classmates who were considered as average students are specializing and doing great. Many of the smart ones also got into great hospitals, but some of them failed miserably too before they got up and became better. All of them are great doctors because are passionate about what they do and hardworking, not because their IQ is 120+.

,,,,,,

written by Vibha AP

beastiebistro

shadeslayer 發表於 22-11-1 21:11
我相信連阿女自己在16歲時都唔知自己能力，可能到依家都未知。

其實我同你睇法差別不大，可能只是半杯滿 ...

都係。呢個topic上，我係半杯水極空份子，我都認我係cynical㗎。

beastiebistro

cow 發表於 22-11-1 21:20
I'm just an average student dreaming of becoming a doctor. Is it hard to become a doctor?
My pedia ...

With all due respect, I don't believe you have followed my argument at all. I have on multiple occasions refuted using IQ as a gauge of whether one has the "ability" to become a doctor (or any other profession for that matter). If you look at my responses you'll see that what I mean by innate ability is so much more than just intelligence.
I don't see this quoted piece of writing as refuting what I say. In fact, I think it justifies exactly what I mean. That the doctor's elder son though intelligent, was born to be an engineer and in all probability would be a terrible medical student. The doctor's younger son on the other hand had that inborn ability. And in a typical Hong Kong household, the elder brother would probably have been forced into doing medicine...

It is always good to read "feel good" stories isn't it. It wouldn't make good reading if the author said he/she breezed through medical school, would it. These kinds of stories are a dime a dozen and I wouldn't attach too much significance to them.

Cynical me, of course.

cow

beastiebistro 發表於 22-11-1 21:37
With all due respect, I don't believe you have followed my argument at all. I have on multiple occas ...

You made an assumption that the purpose of my quotation is to oppose your arguments. Actually, I just provided some information for discussion.   

beastiebistro

cow 發表於 22-11-1 21:57
You made an assumption that the purpose of my quotation is to oppose your arguments. I just provide ...

Apologies for being presumptive.

shadeslayer

beastiebistro 發表於 22-11-1 21:27
都係。呢個topic上，我係半杯水極空份子，我都認我係cynical㗎。

Aiya, there is so much more hope in life being a optimist.  

I am an optimist and if things don’t work out after reasonable efforts, I tell myself this is fate and it is so much easier to come to terms with reality.  

beastiebistro

shadeslayer 發表於 22-11-1 22:10
Aiya, there is so much more hope in life being a optimist.  

I am an optimist and if things don’t ...

I actually don't think of myself as a cynic. I consider myself a pragmatist. Which isn't that much different really, I guess. I try not to rely on hope which is kind of like a "comfort zone" to me. As long as there's still "hope", one doesn't have to make difficult decisions and do the unpleasant, which in most cases means dragging out a situation unnecessarily and usually ends up being disappointing anyway. One just "feels" better during the wait...

shadeslayer

beastiebistro 發表於 22-11-1 22:18
I actually don't think of myself as a cynic. I consider myself a pragmatist. Which isn't that much  ...

It is ok to disagree as we probably have wildly different life experiences that shaped our views. I probably wasn’t as optimistic as I am today until my daughter taught me a few lessons with real life examples. I gave her freedom to do what she wants to do, I gave her support as far as I can. Through her upbringing, she has discovered who she really is, emotions, strengths and weaknesses.  She knows herself best and I don’t pass judgement on what she wants to do, unless I am asked.  I don’t help unless she wants me to.  (Of course I made a few big mistakes along the way).  Making decisions was never a trouble.  She made big decisions many people wouldn’t understand.

The actual outcomes …… are secondary.

ANChan59

shadeslayer 發表於 22-11-1 19:05
這圖亦說明有遠多於三幾個百分點的人有IQ天分做醫生。

我對IQ有不同見解，很多人認為一次IQ測試高分就代表有天分，我唔係咁睇。因為測試結果跟年紀，思維及知識進步有關係。如果7歲時，知識及思維比同齢佔先，lQ會高於100，但知識智慧增長係dynamic，如果及后其他人進步比我快，我係慢慢向下，其他人就會上嚟。

這個是普通常識，可惜很多家長及小朋友以為一個snap shot test就代表一生有天份，這個是大錯特錯嘅美麗的誤會。

就算有天份，什麼天份呢？太空泛了。

兒子在數學嘅天份，不用做IQ test在4歲已經很明顯，數學範圍也很大，應用也很廣。鼓勵他嘗試不同的探索他的天份在那裏，這跟是否高IQ也可以去做。高IQ不一定快樂，但多元智能有平衡發展，肯定在各方面的發展，讓他們更了解自己的目標及快樂。

我一直覺得你們的討論係殊途同歸，只係重點及方向略有不同。

去返個圖，我有保留，我找不到數據來源，分折方法，還有那個國家，如果醫學院係graduate school 抑或undergrad，係可能完全不同的結果，而且這個表係20年前嘅，會唔會outdated？

cow

ANChan59 發表於 22-11-2 08:35
我對IQ有不同見解，很多人認為一次IQ測試高分就代表有天分，我唔係咁睇。因為測試結果跟年紀，思維及知識 ...

Intelligence quotient analysis and its association with academic performance of medical students [2015]

Conclusion

The study found that students with near average IQ work hard in their studies and their academic performance was comparable and even better then [than] higher IQ students. So IQ can`t be made the basis for medical entrance.......

天外之人

回覆 shadeslayer 的帖子

這個當然亦是其中一個原因

ANChan59

cow 發表於 22-11-2 10:14
Intelligence quotient analysis and its association with academic performance of medical students [2 ...

這個看不到，看附上的總結較合邏輯！

Yanamami

shadeslayer 發表於 22-11-1 23:36
It is ok to disagree as we probably have wildly different life experiences that shaped our views. I ...

呢樣我又明喎。有個主觀又强勢既女，我係好被動。升中以後，我做既野幾乎同你相同。好彩outcome唔錯，還算老懷安慰。不過我亦同意bestiebistro, 我接受個女係咩level, 唔會話佢有無限可能。

beastiebistro

shadeslayer 發表於 22-11-1 23:36
It is ok to disagree as we probably have wildly different life experiences that shaped our views. I ...

Indeed.

I have three children and none of them are the same. Not in terms of personality, not in terms of innate abilities, not in terms of hobby or interests. I see first hand how different each individual is, even if they come from the same family and have pretty much a similar upbringing. One is academically profoundly gifted. The other two have their own strengths. I wouldn't presume to have them all follow the same paths. And I am comfortable knowing that they might shine in their own fields but not all of them will be doctors (or lawyers or bankers for that matter). In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if one became an artist or craftsman. Something that the average HK parent would be horrified to learn. But something I would be very proud of (even if she has to live an average life in terms of material comfort).

I decided long before they were born how I would raise them. Most importantly I made it quite clear from the beginning that I am there to support them but am also there as a sounding board for all their decisions. As a result, to this day, they discuss every major decision they make with me. I give them my reasoning and the pros and cons. They of course don't agree every time but at least they are very comfortable with digesting what I say and making informed decisions. It doesn't always work out, or work out the way they want, but they are never devastated  as most outcomes have been discussed and noted. That doesn't mean I control what they do or I pass judgement on their actions. Afterall, I am only a passive sounding board. But it is important that they know there is someone that won't judge them and will give them unreservedly the most sincere analysis, whether they like it or not.

Anyway, very happy to have had a meaningful discussion.

Til next time.

shadeslayer

Yanamami 發表於 22-11-2 11:35
呢樣我又明喎。有個主觀又强勢既女，我係好被動。升中以後，我做既野幾乎同你相同。好彩outcome唔錯，還算 ...

哎呀，唔好講到我唔接受呀女係乜level，因為我係接受。阿女16歲前，學業墊人地底，BBCC左右，上學校要求的英文輔助課程，如果我唔接受就捉佢去補習呢樣補習嗰樣。但我無。

我只係唔預先判斷佢有冇能力做佢想做，有熱誠的事。我會鼓勵佢，支持佢。佢做得到等佢開心，佢做唔到就只可以拍拍佢膊頭安慰佢。我唔會同佢講安分守己唔好咁大想頭既說話，只此而且。

唔好話家長知唔知道子女嘅能力，子女自己都未必知道自己嘅能力。如果佢拿BBCC的時候你同我講佢能達到今天有的東西，我都會覺得離地，不過我唔會講出口

阿女outcome so far? 超額完成了。

shadeslayer

beastiebistro 發表於 22-11-2 13:06
Indeed.

I have three children and none of them are the same. Not in terms of personality, not in te ...

Thanks for your sharing.   We are not that different after all.   It is refreshing to see discussions in forums don’t degenerate into a shouting match.