取消中小學考試名次制度

beastiebistro

shadeslayer 發表於 22-10-28 12:57
Equalising job statuses, prestige and pay is wishful thinking and is not going to happen.  

Why wo ...

Yes, and my point is most burger flippers would not become a doctor or a lawyer even if they went to a university for 60 years. Why should we artificially level the playing field so they think they can? Let those that have the ability fight for the position fair and square with the same conditions.
And may the best man win.

Incidentally, the Nazis were socialists too...

shadeslayer

ABC-DAD 發表於 22-10-28 13:09
用職業去衡量，具體我會試下用民航機師同巴士車長去參照，你兩位會點評價呢？唔同國家待遇都有出入。 ...

機師要求高車長好多，收入有不少差距，好正常。

shadeslayer

beastiebistro 發表於 22-10-28 13:25
Yes, and my point is most burger flippers would not become a doctor or a lawyer even if they went to ...

That is the key issue.  I don’t think burger flippers are burger flippers because they are most suited to be a burger flipper.  Or it is their own choice to become burger flippers and live under the poverty line.  It is because they didn’t have the upbringing and education necessary for them to become someone they aspire to be.  

Give a burger flipper great upbringing and education m, most of them can become a lawyer or a doctor.  

Of course this is what I believe I don’t have solid evidence this is the case, other than 68% of people are within IQ 85-115.

beastiebistro

ABC-DAD 發表於 22-10-28 13:09
用職業去衡量，具體我會試下用民航機師同巴士車長去參照，你兩位會點評價呢？唔同國家待遇都有出入。 ...

我嘅睇法係民航機師或者巴士司機都需要某啲特定能力（唔一定關智商事），並唔係人人適合做。做機師能力要求比較專門所以合適人數比巴士司機少好多，薪酬亦相對較高。但唔代表機師比巴士司機高尚，呢樣只係純以金錢得益去論排位，呢樣先係真正令人覺得不公平嘅底因。
要改係比較難，但係北歐國家其實做緊亦做得好好。唔使個個爭住做律師醫生，例如教師受尊重程度有過之而冇不及。所以有能力教育下一代嘅，好樂意做老師，唔一定想入投行。咁咪可以人盡其材，有能者居之囉

cow

beastiebistro 發表於 22-10-28 13:45
我嘅睇法係民航機師或者巴士司機都需要某啲特定能力（唔一定關智商事），並唔係人人適合做。做機師能力要求 ...

以下是中大Secret留言, 除數學系還有哲學系, 化學系等等版本。除保安, 還有有司機等版本

某天，保安順便問了他一句：「咦，你也是中大學生？」 中大學生雖然不知道保安是從哪裏得來的消息，但還是禮貌的回應了一句：「是的！」

保安繼續說：「有一天見你穿著中大的校服出來，所以就猜你是中大的學生。」沒想到的是，他跟著又問了一個更加令人震驚的問題：「有沒有『上莊』？」 要知道「上莊」是香港當地學院特有的文化，是指擔任學生組織中的幹事。這個事兒非內部人士不了解，就連我都是第一次知道。中大學生虎軀一震，從沒想過「上莊」這個字眼會居然會從一個保安口中聽到。

緊接著保安興致勃勃的再問：「你是哪家書院的？新還是舊？」中大學生越發驚訝，心想居然能說出中大有新舊學院，這個保安不簡單啊！就好奇問保安：「我是逸夫，你好像很熟中大？」

保安接下來的回答解釋了他的疑慮：「因為我也是中大畢業的。」中大學生雖然心想職業無分貴賤，保安也是一份工作，但還是忍不住想再問：「為什麼師兄你畢業要做保安？」畢竟他自己可不想這麼辛苦畢業後再回小區當保安！保安臉色突然微微一沉說：「因為我是讀數學的，讀完出來好像沒有什麼適合的工作...」原來是讀數學啊。香港數學系找不到工作嗎？

保安繼續說：「現在做保安可以多點時間做自己的東西，還算可以的了。」說完他深吸了一口涼氣...
中大學生回了一句：「哦...」

沒想到保安倒是打開了話匣子，繼續訴說下去：「讀大學的時候真的挺開心的，經常『走堂』可以和朋友去玩，還偷偷進入宿舍過夜。」
中大學生看著他回憶過去美好的樣子，雖然不耐煩了但是還是不忍心打斷保安說話，只好輕輕附和點頭示意。

大約5分鐘後，保安突然察覺到不妥，就說：「不好意思，好像阻礙到你了。」
中大學生：「不要緊，下次有時間再聊多兩句。」

就這樣，兩人結束了他倆之間的對話。

beastiebistro

shadeslayer 發表於 22-10-28 13:43
That is the key issue.  I don’t think burger flippers are burger flippers because they are most su ...

Now we're getting into the whole "nature vs nurture" debate.

Just to be absolutely clear, burger flippers are only a random job picked to illustrate the point. It is not by any means exhaustive or particularly indicative of said situation. I would agree that not all burger flippers choose to be burger flippers. But my point is that even if they were not burger flippers, they would maybe become a delivery van driver, or an office clerk, or a window cleaner, or a thousand other jobs that are perceived to be less "prestigious" than, say, an accountant. I do not for a moment look "down" at these jobs. I think they are what makes society tick and every bit as important as a brain surgeon or the president of the United States.  BUT not everybody has what it takes to be a POTUS or an Elon Musk or Charles Kao.

Should we identify prodigies in the black, latino, female, etc population, we should by all means pluck them out and nurture them, just as we should white, asian male. BUT the vast majority should be made comfortable doing basic jobs (I don't want to use the word menial as it has derogatory undertones).  

As I said in another thread, 天資決定高度，性格（後天）決定發揮度。If they have it they have it, if they don't have it, no matter how much we want them to, they won't have it.

I am cynical.

天外之人

ABC-DAD 發表於 22-10-28 12:17
講重點吖唔該，可否定義左，「刻意安排」？
請舉例並說明［路本身都應該係孩子自己點走,父母最應該衹係唔好 ...

唔駛咁燥,都係討論. 中學生就唔駛講,大部份家長都講孩子自己都攪得掂,且好多根本都理唔到.所以,主要都係小學之前. 學習上子女話唔識,正常呢啲大部份一般家長都可以指導一下,現今社會我就唔太相信衹有幼稚園能力家長.DAD你都講生命自己會找到自己出路的,就已經帶出自己可走出自己既路,唔需要他人去扶持,如果唔係就冇咗自己特色及能力,就好像之前提及過既理念,雖然大部份人都選合理念會學得順利啲,但可能冇稔過孩子將來若在唔啱自己理念環境及唔適應情況下,唔識得點做和點解決能力,突然我就稔起一字--------"逃避".
這衹是我想法,可能比較簡單.

shadeslayer

cow 發表於 22-10-28 14:25
以下是中大Secret留言, 除數學系還有哲學系, 化學系等等版本。除保安, 還有有司機等版本

某天，保安順便問 ...

數學系畢業做保安，有冇問題？

天外之人

ABC-DAD 發表於 22-10-28 13:09
用職業去衡量，具體我會試下用民航機師同巴士車長去參照，你兩位會點評價呢？唔同國家待遇都有出入。 ...

都係服務人民的工作,機師同車長能力其實可以都係一樣,正常父母都係想巴士車長會優先考慮,起碼壓力同危險性冇咁大,衹係工資上有差距(唔知其他國家係唔係),講句唔好聽,機長一出事,基本上有去冇回頭,父母都係想自己孩子以健康為優先,所以孩子學習成長都係開心健康才是最重要,成績話之理.

shadeslayer

beastiebistro 發表於 22-10-28 14:29
Now we're getting into the whole "nature vs nurture" debate.

Just to be absolutely clear, burger f ...

BUT not everybody has what it takes to be a POTUS

Xxxxxx

Funny you say that. Which bit of Trumps character or ability are so unique and must have for a president?  Narcissism, Nepotism or misogynist attitude?

I think I watched a TED show talking about  why so many incompetent man are put in positions of power.  

shadeslayer

天外之人 發表於 22-10-28 15:12
都係服務人民的工作,機師同車長能力其實可以都係一樣,正常父母都係想巴士車長會優先考慮,起碼壓力同危險性 ...

空中意外遠少於馬路上意外

beastiebistro

shadeslayer 發表於 22-10-28 15:28
BUT not everybody has what it takes to be a POTUS

Xxxxxx

Oh, I think he's a very cunning businessman (whether a successful one or not can be debated). I think he just applied business principles in his political dealings.

You know they say corporate CEOs have uncannily similar personality traits as serial killers. It takes a certain kind of person to do a certain job.

We may laugh at Trump or Biden or Boris Johnson or Liz Truss or Putin or Kim, the truth is the average burger flipper would not begin to understand how to operate in that position. Not that the average burger flipper necessarily wants to be in that position.   

shadeslayer

beastiebistro 發表於 22-10-28 15:40
Oh, I think he's a very cunning businessman (whether a successful one or not can be debated). I thin ...

I think Trump is unique in that group.  I wouldn’t call him cunning, more like a mob boss.  

天外之人

beastiebistro 發表於 22-10-28 13:45
我嘅睇法係民航機師或者巴士司機都需要某啲特定能力（唔一定關智商事），並唔係人人適合做。做機師能力要求 ...

所以咩學校都好,最重要都係老師這個人才.老師能做到教既心比揾錢既心重,學生就獲益良多.

天外之人

回覆 shadeslayer 的帖子

但一次意外隨時可能就係最後一次. 壓力不比醫生少,醫生失敗可能係一個病人,還可以回家有父母妻子孩子開解,機師失敗......天各一方. 所以更顯得專才幾咁重要,唔係隨便有運動音樂就可以.

ABC-DAD

shadeslayer 發表於 22-10-28 13:38
機師要求高車長好多，收入有不少差距，好正常。

我想講嘅係兩者唔可能同工同籌，唔單只入職要求，訓練成本，兩個工種嘅風險都唔一樣。
同公唔公平無關，更加唔係公義嘅問題，如果，只有某種天生嘅條件先可以做機師，那就不一樣，就算係語言問題，如果可以經過學習達到要求，咁可以諗下算唔算唔公義？

另一方面，同一間學校，巴士司機嘅小朋友申請入學，飛機師嘅小朋友申請入學，唔需要申報家長職業，當中，是否隱含一種睇唔到嘅歧視？
換個角度，二人入學後，某些選科名額預留1/4給家庭經濟有問題嘅同學又公平嗎？
反之，只問能力，入圍後才按經濟需要支援，會更易讓人接受嗎？

shadeslayer

天外之人 發表於 22-10-28 17:24
回覆 shadeslayer 的帖子

但一次意外隨時可能就係最後一次. 壓力不比醫生少,醫生失敗可能係一個病人,還可 ...

我係比較緊飛機師因為飛機意外死亡的概率，比汽車司機喺馬路上遇到意外死亡嘅概率低好多。

shadeslayer

ABC-DAD 發表於 22-10-28 17:35
我想講嘅係兩者唔可能同工同籌，唔單只入職要求，訓練成本，兩個工種嘅風險都唔一樣。
同公唔公平無關，更 ...

美國大學都有 legacy admission 。世界上何曾有過絕對的能力優先。如何定義「能力」也不容易。只要不太過份如Trump appoint 自己女兒女婿入白宮便可以。

ABC-DAD

beastiebistro 發表於 22-10-28 13:45
我嘅睇法係民航機師或者巴士司機都需要某啲特定能力（唔一定關智商事），並唔係人人適合做。做機師能力要求 ...

社會係需要好嘅公民教育，這方面我首推日本、意大利同瑞士。事實重有好多地方我未去過嘅。

shadeslayer

ABC-DAD 發表於 22-10-28 17:35
我想講嘅係兩者唔可能同工同籌，唔單只入職要求，訓練成本，兩個工種嘅風險都唔一樣。
同公唔公平無關，更 ...

機師 vision 要20-20，明顯有生理要求。我唔相信要做醫生律師要有過人的生理要求或聰明才智。普通人一個。

只要有適當的教育和機會，我覺得一半人都可以。當然社會不需要一半人做律師醫生。

這就是教育的重要性。

If I am well educated, I have options and can choose my career.  If I choose to be a fisherman, that is fine too.