取消中小學考試名次制度

beastiebistro

shadeslayer 發表於 22-10-26 12:46
不要追討？咁你反對 affirmative action?

係，我反對。我齋崇尚meritocratcy，有能者居之。
近年間唔中睇吓啲所謂西方debate，我係jordan peterson嗰派嘅。佢話一般左膠追求嘅equality，其實係追求equality in outcome唔係equality in opportunity，即係ultimately要削平晒各人所得。即係無論能力幾大，付出幾多，成果都係一樣。

佢（我都係）支持equality in opportunity，但係唔支持equality in outcome。大家都有同一機會入某一大學／某一職位，咪攤出嚟比拼下囉，點解因為一個candidate係黑人／女人／草根階層出身就可以加分呢？點解唔係最適合最有能力嘅人做呢？

不過Jordan Peterson俾左膠鬧係右翼納粹，可能我都係...

beastiebistro

shadeslayer 發表於 22-10-26 12:34
History is the backdrop and provides a context.  We can’t make the right decisions and move forwar ...

To me history provides a "reference" BUT certainly should not be curtailing our current actions...
We should learn from our mistakes BUT we shouldn't retroactively be rewarding the unworthy, no matter how wronged or deprived their forebears were in the past...

of course, it's just my own opinion...

ANChan59

ABC-DAD 發表於 22-10-26 09:17
同我地一樣喎，啲神父修士真係明白事理。

係呀，比較現在嘅教育官員明白事理及開明。

ANChan59

beastiebistro 發表於 22-10-26 13:03
係，我反對。我齋崇尚meritocratcy，有能者居之。
近年間唔中睇吓啲所謂西方debate，我係jordan peterson ...

多謝細心分析兩者分別，equality in outcome在共產及社會主義係主流，不過Napoleon 特別平等。

Equality in opportunities 係好，有能者居之係正確，不過，大部分人未必係有能者，例如我，當然要反你啦，我冇，點解你有！

shadeslayer

beastiebistro 發表於 22-10-26 13:03
係，我反對。我齋崇尚meritocratcy，有能者居之。
近年間唔中睇吓啲所謂西方debate，我係jordan peterson ...

呢啲嘢有點哲學性，講多十年無乜絕對答案。至在諗下野。

過去會影響現在。

我當然知道equal opportunities 同 equal outcome 的分別。我看，Affirmative actions 不一定是要 equal outcome。

美國黑人受壓制以百年計，佢哋的機會一向沒白人多，而家同佢講要 equal  opportunities? 依家才講 equal opportunities，黑人要過多幾多百年才不受過去影響，有真平等。

好彩你話 identify with Jordan Peterson，唔係 Ben Shapiro.

Bluegene

beastiebistro 發表於 22-10-26 13:03
係，我反對。我齋崇尚meritocratcy，有能者居之。
近年間唔中睇吓啲所謂西方debate，我係jordan peterson ...

我理解Equality in opportunities 應該係平常叫 Equity 譯做公平.
Equality 就係大鍋飯，人人平等分咁多。唔理有錢冇錢。

beastiebistro

ANChan59 發表於 22-10-26 13:18
多謝細心分析兩者分別，equality in outcome在共產及社會主義係主流，不過Napoleon 特別平等。

Equality  ...

陳sir講笑咩，你點會冇？我拍馬都追唔上。

至於「能」在邊方面，我就唔似係坊間咁執著。我個仔係有能力，我相信如果佢想，入所謂嘅「神科」都應該可以。但係佢醉心數學，一心讀純數，我又冇問題喎。

兩個女冇阿哥咁讀得，但係又有自己專長。一個做到Frida Khalo或者Zaha Hadid都唔錯，另外嗰個最後可能向娛樂圈發展添。有佢哋嗰方面能力，就應該發揮嗰方面專長。

其實只要唔係每日諗住「點解我咁靚仔會冇頭髮，點解我老竇唔係李嘉誠」，做一個人人稱頌嘅巴士司機都好㗎，唔係人人都揸到手好車㗎。

shadeslayer

beastiebistro 發表於 22-10-26 13:03
係，我反對。我齋崇尚meritocratcy，有能者居之。
近年間唔中睇吓啲所謂西方debate，我係jordan peterson ...

點解因為一個candidate係黑人／女人／草根階層出身就可以加分呢？點解唔係最適合最有能力嘅人做呢？

Xxxxxx

依家有些公司，請黑人女人入team，只係last minute diversity consideration. 由始至終白人男人手執權力

beastiebistro

shadeslayer 發表於 22-10-26 13:51
點解因為一個candidate係黑人／女人／草根階層出身就可以加分呢？點解唔係最適合最有能力嘅人做呢？

Xxxx ...

可能。

不過大學就真係左膠當道，讀私校／亞洲人／男性報數理科目全部「減分」，equality in outcome dressed up as equality in opportunity嘅活生生例子...

ANChan59

shadeslayer 發表於 22-10-26 13:51
點解因為一個candidate係黑人／女人／草根階層出身就可以加分呢？點解唔係最適合最有能力嘅人做呢？

Xxxx ...

英國最近兩次首相選舉，都有類似考量，性別及種族。上一次我在英國會選辛偉誠，而不會選卓惠絲，今次如果不是衰到貼地，點會有印裔首相跑出。

beastiebistro

shadeslayer 發表於 22-10-26 13:35
呢啲嘢有點哲學性，講多十年無乜絕對答案。至在諗下野。

過去會影響現在。

對我嚟講，affirmative action可能出發點係好，但係發展落嚟變咗矯枉過正，為equal而equal。

我知部分公司會practice blind hire（遮住candidate嘅個人／背景資料），有能者居之。咁話之佢係一個25歲讀完community college嘅黑人，或者65歲有3個harvard degree嘅白人女人，啱嘅咪請囉。

不過你講得啱，係philosophical debate包裝成political discourse，所以諗吓吹吓水就得... 謝賜教

Jordan Peterson夠衰㗎喇

shadeslayer

beastiebistro 發表於 22-10-26 13:59
可能。

不過大學就真係左膠當道，讀私校／亞洲人／男性報數理科目全部「減分」，equality in outcome dres ...

Depends how much do we value diversity.

beastiebistro

shadeslayer 發表於 22-10-26 14:23
Depends how much do we value diversity.

Personally, I don't value diversity over meritocracy. I believe any candidate should be judged on his/her own merits and ability regardless of race, gender, political beliefs or family background, etc.
Any artificial "levelling" of the playing fields is valuing mediocrity over meritocracy.

of course, just my opinion (as always).

shadeslayer

beastiebistro 發表於 22-10-26 14:30
Personally, I don't value diversity over meritocracy. I believe any candidate should be judged on hi ...

mediocrity over meritocracy.

Xxxxxxx

Merit based selection is always right.  Question is how much, as a society, we accept levelling towards communities who has been discriminated against for hundreds of years from the beginning of time.  

For you, no levelling is acceptable.  For me a “small” amount is fine.  

beastiebistro

shadeslayer 發表於 22-10-26 16:14
mediocrity over meritocracy.

Xxxxxxx

agree to disagree la

Bluegene

beastiebistro 發表於 22-10-26 13:59
可能。

不過大學就真係左膠當道，讀私校／亞洲人／男性報數理科目全部「減分」，equality in outcome dres ...

係 reverse discrimination 例子

shadeslayer

Bluegene 發表於 22-10-27 08:57
係 reverse discrimination 例子

You can say that.  But I think it is out of the University’s wish to have a diversified student community, or as a means to support the weak community (in university admission) because of the systematic racism in the last hundreds of years.  It is not necessarily a problem.

Equal opportunity is a nice concept.  What even is equal opportunities.  Percentage wise, there are 2.5 times more African American living below the poverty line than white or Asian.  Do their kids even have equal opportunities to early childhood education.

Bluegene

shadeslayer 發表於 22-10-27 11:42
You can say that.  But I think it is out of the University’s wish to have a diversified student co ...

I agree that university admissions don’t need to have affirmative action. Diversity doesn’t apply to admission. If a society has consensus on how to help the underprivileged, there could be various assistance, subsidies and helping programs.
This is always a battling field for left and right on how to pay tax and distribute welfare. Whether the society believes in social justice.

shadeslayer

Bluegene 發表於 22-10-27 13:24
I agree that university admissions don’t need to have affirmative action. Diversity doesn’t apply  ...

It is not about left or right, it is about what is reasonable and what a society should do, given the dark history of racism, oppression and power imbalance.In the past and in present time.Never stopped.

Education is still a good way to turn around a generation in a family. If we leave it to a pure merit based system for university admissions, the black community may never catch up.How many more generations do they need to suffer?

I don’t have answers to these questions. I just feel sorry for them.Just something to think about why any university would consider affirmative actions.


If racism seems far away, what about sexism?  Not so much in university admissions, but in general in the society.

beastiebistro

shadeslayer 發表於 22-10-27 14:15
本帖最後由 shadeslayer 於 22-10-27 14:23 編輯

Education is still a good way to turn around a generation in a family.

To me it is not Education in itself that provides the turn around, it is the person. If the person is willing to change, to improve, to better him/herself, he will SEEK the best education opportunities. There are plenty of poor people made good stories. Inevitably, it is the person who managed, despite difficult circumstances to rise above everything and find the path that leads to prosperity.

So to me, whether a person improves is down to the person himself/herself, generational injustice should not be an excuse. If he/she has the ability AND the determination, then he/she will be rewarded. We do not need to artificially level the playing field to give them a leg up.

Equal opportunity to me applies to all areas. If it is early childhood education that one is concerned about, it can be easily rectified without making racial or sexual injustice from bygone eras a factor. In fact, there are free magnet schools in the US and Grammar schools in the UK for the academically able.  
I guess I'm a typical right winger. I admire self made people and have no sympathy for those that use race or sex or upbringing as an excuse for not doing more themselves.

In any case, this is just a casual discourse. I don't think I'll convince you (nor do I intend to) and you're unlikely to convince me. It's no big deal anyway.