Attention!! All Canadian citizens with kids born outside of Canada!!!!!

jolalee

Citizenship for All Canadian Children!

If you are a Canadian passport holder, please read on:

There is an initiative to repeal an amendment to Canada’s citizenship law (put in by the former PM) which prevents Canadian citizens from passing down full citizenship rights to children born abroad.

But, as Justin Trudeau said, "A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian," and I believe citizenship shouldn't have caveats.

There is parliamentary petition set up so this can be tabled in the House of Commons. All Canadian citizens can sign, regardless of where they live.

Please have a look at the petition here:  https://petitions.parl.gc.ca/en/Petition/Details?Petition=e-517

The petition is open until Dec 21st and then it can be tabled in the House of Commons. The petition is initiated by Jenny Kwan, MP for Vancouver East, and NPD critic for immigration.

Please sign the petition yourself, and/or share this initiative to all your Canadian friends!!

FattyDaddy

random_dad 發表於 16-9-22 09:46
While a significant portion of "parents" may have returned to Hong Kong, I don't think it's the majority ...

For the "parents" group who emigrated in the 90's, whether the returnees are the majority is anybody's guess, but as far as their inclinations are concerned, most of them did regard periods abroad as "jail time" and wanted to return to HK as soon as possible. Evidently our experiences differ because I'm in the "parents" age bracket and I guess you're closer to the "children" group. I'm not saying which one of us is nearer to the truth, just that we have arrived at different perspectives because of different exposure.
I agree with you that for the "children" group who some of them are now parents, many of those who had returned to HK have now "re-returned" to the country where they emigrated to with their parents (or were simply born there). In fact, even the parents who once dreaded "jail time" abroad are thinking of leaving as well because today's HK is no longer the HK they once knew and loved so "jail" has now become more attractive.

random_dad

oooray 發表於 16-9-20 13:57
sorry for quoting your speech. Your explanation is clear. I am just curious to hear the discussion ( ...

Ah, got it.

There's actually another dimension to the 回鄉卡 that I don't know whether it comes into play or not.  The way China sees it, the dual nationality issue is something grandfathered to those that had dual nationality prior to 1997, or perhaps obtained by birth.  Remember that China's view is that they only allow a single nationality, and that if you had settled abroad and have obtained a foreign nationality, you would automatically lose your Chinese nationality (as would, for example, Australians obtaining a second nationality during the period in which Australia did not allow dual nationality).  So, an ethnic Chinese national born in Hong Kong emigrates to a foreign country after 1997 and obtains that nationality.  If they apply for a  回鄉卡 only after they obtain that foreign nationality, I don't whether China would issue it, even if that person qualifies for a HKSAR passport by virtue of their birth.  The extension of that is whether from a legal perspective, they can revoke the 回鄉卡 for those Hongkongers who have obtained a foreign nationality subsequent to 1997, even though I don't believe that is being enforced at all.

http://www.immd.gov.hk/eng/residents/immigration/chinese/law.html (See Article 9)

random_dad

FattyDaddy 發表於 16-9-20 13:42
No I would not say it is a bit of a reach if we put things into context.
The majority of ethnic Chin ...

Respectfully, I would suggest that your application of context isn't correct.

Ethnic Chinese Hongkongers that have never emigrated elsewhere would not be part of this context of the renunciation of their Chinese nationality, because they will not be able to, as one cannot renounce their nationality without having already obtained another.  You cannot become stateless voluntarily.  The context of which the renunciation applies is only for, as you put it, the minority who have obtained foreign nationality.

Within this subset of people of which the rule can only apply to, from my personal experience, I would still like to suggest that your observation isn't entirely correct.  I will suggest that there are two categories of people within this subset; the "parents" and the "children".

While a significant portion of "parents" may have returned to Hong Kong, I don't think it's the majority.  For example, the statistics in the early 2000's suggested that there were more than 400,000 Chinese in the Greater Toronto Area (the largest Chinese population outside of China/Hong Kong), with the overwhelming majority from Hong Kong, as immigration from Mainland China was few and far in between.  Further, there was steady emigration from after 1989 right up to the handover, as the events of 1989 triggered a wave of application, and time for applications + time needed to stay in a foreign country for the majority would have been 5 years or greater (2 years application + 3 years stay for Canada or 5 years for Australia or 7 years for USA), and as such returning before 1997 would have been difficult for many.  Of these folks, only those that entered Hong Kong just before July 1 1997 or the 18 months following would have qualified for retaining their Right of Abode if they were to renounce their Chinese nationality.  Those returning after that would have needed to not have entered Hong Kong at all for more than 36 months continuously.

For the "children", as anecdotal evidence, I have noticed the migration back to Hong Kong began just after 2000 and continued throughout the decade, having graduated from University and having perceived their economic opportunities were better in Hong Kong as a result of their language and cultural deficiency.  These same "children" that have returned are now looking at returning overseas or having recently done so, as they now have their own children and are looking at the education system here as dysfunctional as compared to what they have attended overseas, and therefore desiring an international school now, with the consideration of sending their children overseas soon or in the near future.  I can tell you from personal experience that a great majority of those I know that have primary school aged children today and hold a foreign nationality has already returned to the foreign country within the last year or two, or is on their radar to go well before upper secondary school begins.  The events in Hong Kong in the last two years seems to have been a contributing factor as well, whether as an excuse or not for their decision to leave.

For what it's worth.  It's my 2 cents.  You may disagree.  :)

oooray

原帖由 random_dad 於 16-09-20 發表
本帖最後由 random_dad 於 16-9-20 12:43 編輯

sorry for quoting your speech. Your explanation is clear. I am just curious to hear the discussion (or right) of applying home return card...

FattyDaddy

random_dad 發表於 16-9-20 12:29
But the assumption that most ethnic Chinese Hongkonger would satisfy 1 and (a) is a bit of a reach in my opinion.  ...

No I would not say it is a bit of a reach if we put things into context.
The majority of ethnic Chinese Hongkongers have never emigrated elsewhere, and for the minority who did, many of them regarded foreign nationality as an insurance only and never intended to settle in the country they emigrated to, hence the popular phrase "移民監" was coined. To them, being away from HK was like a jail term and some even bragged about how they cheated the system and obtained citizenship without doing the time. Thus getting out of "jail" would be a general desire and given the peak of emigration occurred in the early 1990's, most of them would have returned to HK by 1997 or shortly afterwards.

Anyway, this is only a minor point.

random_dad

oooray 發表於 16-9-19 11:02
回覆 random_dad 的帖子

我的理解是；如你所說；因中國不承認雙重國籍；只要你是香港出生；在香港居住；或 ...

What I've stated above is correct, with FattyDaddy providing the links to HK Immi for the official explanation.

What we are discussing is what happens if someone chooses to renounce their Chinese Nationality.  So long as you don't, then the Right of Abode (HK PR) status is retained regardless of dual or multiple citizenship.

I'm not sure which of the points raised you are addressing or responding to, so if you can clarify, it would help me understand if I've made a mistake or am not clear in my explanation.

random_dad

tibbar2011 發表於 16-9-16 22:22
回覆 FattyDaddy 的帖子

So you mean one can renounce Chinese nationality without giving up HK PR? I  ...

I would add to my above response and FattyDaddy's above response that as long as when you give up your Chinese nationality you have another nationality, then what is stated above is correct, because if you don't have another nationality, you would become stateless (which I don't know if HK Immi would allow anyways) and other complications would arise.

random_dad

FattyDaddy 發表於 16-9-17 05:57
Straight from the horse's mouth :)
http://www.immd.gov.hk/eng/services/chinese_nationality/Applicati ...

I should have been more clear and not interchangeably use HK PR and Chinese Nationality for what I wrote.

But the assumption that most ethnic Chinese Hongkonger would satisfy 1 and (a) is a bit of a reach in my opinion.  Part (a.1) says that the person needed to be settled immediately before 1 July 1997, which would mean that if you had immigrated at that moment in time, and unless you have returned shortly thereafter and satisfied either part (a.2) or (a.3) as well, you will indeed loose your Right of Abode (aka HK PR) when you renounce your Chinese nationality.

Summary:

If you are a Chinese national + If you were living in HK on 1 July 1997 = Keep Right of Abode
If you are a Chinese national + If you were living elsewhere on 1 July 1997 + returned before 31 Dec 1998 = Keep Right of Abode
If you are a Chinese national + If you were living elsewhere on 1 July 1997 + returned before 30 Jun 2000 = Keep Right of Abode
All other Chinese nationals = Lose your right of abode and retain your right to land but can reacquire your right of abode after 7 years.

Basically, if you had emigrated from Hong Kong at the time of handover, unless you had returned shortly after and satisfied the above conditions, you would lose your right of abode.  I would argue the privilege to retain the right of abode for would not apply for most ethnic Chinese Hong Kongers that were not in Hong Kong at time of handover.

You are correct in the consequences in that for most that choose to renounce their Chinese nationality, they would be giving up the right to a HKSAR passport and a 回鄉卡, and would therefore need a visa to enter China.  They can live and work in Hong Kong with the right to land, but the other right they would lose is the right to vote.  Whether this last part is a big deal or not would depending on the person.

The longer consequence is actually similar to what started this thread; the next generation would not be a Chinese national and therefore would not be entitled to a right of abode or a right to land, I guess in a way similar to what Canadians and Australians have done with their law, although not in an exact manner.

oooray

回覆 random_dad 的帖子

我的理解是；如你所說；因中國不承認雙重國籍；只要你是香港出生；在香港居住；或海外出生97後回港入境時是聲明了永久居民身份；你便是香港人(不管你拿多少本外國護照)；享有香港永久居民福利：同時在香港或內地也失去所屬國藉國家之領事保護權。

FattyDaddy

tibbar2011 發表於 16-9-16 22:22
For us HK born ethic Chinese, if we renounce Chinese nationality, I am curious what the ramification is ...

Straight from the horse's mouth :)
http://www.immd.gov.hk/eng/services/chinese_nationality/Application_for_Renunciation_of_Chinese_Nationality.html


An excerpt from the webpage ...

The applicant will continue to enjoy his/her right of abode in Hong Kong after his/her application for renunciation of Chinese nationality has been approved, provided that:

(a) the applicant had the right of abode in Hong Kong before 1 July 1997, AND

• he/she was settled in Hong Kong immediately before 1 July 1997; or
• after he/she ceased to be settled in Hong Kong immediately before 1 July 1997, he/she returned to settle in Hong Kong within 18 months commencing on 1 July 1997; or
• after he/she ceased to be settled in Hong Kong immediately before 1 July 1997, he/she returned to settle in Hong Kong after the period of 18 months commencing on 1 July 1997 but only if he/she had been absent from Hong Kong for a continuous period of less than 36 months.
  

I believe most ethnic Chinese Hongkonger would satisfy conditions (a) and 1 above so the Right of Abode in HK is protected, the consequence is you won't be entitled to an HKSAR passport (actually a China passport because that's the country issuing it) and a "Return to Village" card.


Incidentally the webpage also mentions this ...


"If the applicant loses his/her right of abode in Hong Kong, he/she will automatically acquire the right to land, which will enable him/her to enter the HKSAR freely and to work, study or live without any restriction on the condition of stay in Hong Kong. The applicant will also be able to re-acquire the right of abode if he/she subsequently satisfies the requirements applicable to a non-Chinese citizen"


So, not such a big deal even if you lose the Right of Abode.

tibbar2011

回覆 FattyDaddy 的帖子

So you mean one can renounce Chinese nationality without giving up HK PR? I noted your point that many foreigners are HK PRs but not Chinese nationals, but I would consider them as a different "specie" as they are never entitled to Chinese nationality.  For us HK born ethic Chinese, if we renounce Chinese nationality, I am curious what the ramification is.  Obviously, living in HK, it's important to maintain HK PR... thanks

FattyDaddy

random_dad 發表於 16-9-15 12:36
the visa office in Hong Kong will ask you to do is to confirm that you are not a Chinese national by going to HKSAR Immigration and declaring that you are giving up your rights as a PR in HK ...

Don't know about the other points mentioned in the message but this I know is not accurate.

A HK PR is not the same as a Chinese National, there are many foreigners who are HK PR but are not Chinese Nationals.


If you have automatically acquired Chinese nationality on 1/July/1997 (as would be the case for every HK PR who are "of Chinese blood") and you wish to renounce that nationality, you could do so without giving up any right of being a HK PR, in other words you will still have the triple star HKID card and have the right of abode in HK and the right to vote etc.

random_dad

Let me attempt to clarify, as I have spent some time looking at the rules for myself, being a foreign born Chinese.

The issue at the heart of the issue, and is the basis of the determination of whether you are considered a Chinese National in the eyes of China, is if the child was born outside of Hong kong, then whether at time of birth, the parent of that child is a resident of Hong Kong (or China), or whether the parents have emigrated.  So if a child was born at a time when the parents normally resided in a foreign country and holds that citizenship, then the child would not be considered Chinese.  Conversely, if the child was born while the parents were "vacationing" in another country, then that child would be considered Chinese.  These are the same rules that HKSAR Immigration uses to determine whether you will qualify for a HKSAR passport or not.  There are also considerations for those born before 1997 handover, where those children would be entitled to dual citizenship and Chinese nationality as a result of their birth while HK was under British rule.

A quick summary:

Child born in HK + Parents are Chinese = Chinese child
Child born elsewhere + Parents have migrated elsewhere = not Chinese child
Child born elsewhere + Parents normally live in HK at the time of birth = Chinese child
Child born before 1997 whether in HK or overseas + Parents are Chinese and have PR status in HK = Chinese child

From the above:

If your child is Chinese -> you qualify for 回鄉卡 -> no need for visa -> go get 回鄉卡
If your child is not Chinese -> you don't qualify for 回鄉卡 -> no problems with getting visa

Here's what it boils down to...  They will not issues visas to people that are their own nationals.  This is logical, and true of any other nation.  If you wish to obtain a visa, then what the visa office in Hong Kong will ask you to do is to confirm that you are not a Chinese national by going to HKSAR Immigration and declaring that you are giving up your rights as a PR in HK.  In other words, you can't be both a Chinese national and a Chinese non-national at the same time.  This policy hasn't changed in recent years.
  
Furthermore, from my understanding, if you have gained citizenship by birth from countries other than China, then those countries will also not extend you the consular courtesies that China might be able to offer (I know, not likely anyways).  But the point I'm trying to make is that China is applying the rules the same way that any other country would apply in determination of whether you qualify for consular protection based on citizenship obtained by birth.  In other words, if you were born in Canada and have obtained Australian citizenship by naturalization, Australia will not be able to offer you consular protection while in Canada.  With this in mind, the part I am uncertain is whether if you relinquish your rights as a HK PR, whether you would then qualify for consular protection, because that relinquishes the right in HK, but China might still sees that person as a Chinese national.

Where the crux of the issue, of course, is that China does not recognize dual citizenship, while many other nations do, and a special exemption was made to HKSAR by China.  This exemption adds a complicating factor.

I suspect the case from Canada that made news was of someone applying for a China visa that probably is a Chinese national because their birth was before the handover.  From looking at the info from that incident, it doesn't appear to me that the policies have changed.  I think they were issued their visas subsequently.

I have personally been denied a visa application made via the visa office in Hong Kong, but have been able to obtain a visa in my foreign passport from that foreign country.   I have also been able to obtain a 回鄉卡 subsequent to that (and not too long ago), after proving to HKSAR Immigration that I was a Chinese national by providing my parent's travel documents from around the time I was born showing their exit and entry records as being consistent of someone residing at Hong Kong at the time, and obtaining a HKSAR passport.

kammis

Even u can Help ur kid to get a visa to China today, doesn't mean u can to the same next week. China's regulation changes whenever they like and they don't need to inform u in advance. They can reject ur application without giving a reason.

The hidden meaning to force HK born foreign kids to apply 回鄉卡 instead of a visa is... Using 回鄉卡 to enter China, which means u admit u are a Chinese citizen. If u break any law (or they just don't like u) or under investigation, don't expect the Canadian embassy can help u coz u are a "Chinese citizen" committing a crime in China!

bbdmami

Only multiple entry visa is rejected.  I never heard any problem with single entry visa.  
Multiple entry visa has always been difficult even for business travellers.

Artie

jolalee 發表於 16-9-8 23:39
回覆 hkparent 的帖子

Yes, that's why I'm keen on trying to apply for China Visa from Australia this ...

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

nintendo

Return to Jungle.... sounds like not as bad as our situation.

FattyDaddy

jolalee 發表於 16-9-7 07:45
See if any African country can pull THAT off for black Americans!! ...

Well, if Kenya regards Barack Obama as "first and foremost" a Kenyan and if he wants to visit Kenya he could only enter the country with a "Return to Jungle" card, I guess Barack will simply not go

jolalee

回覆 hkparent 的帖子

Yes, that's why I'm keen on trying to apply for China Visa from Australia this coming Christmas when we return there for our annual visit. Hopefully my son will get visa entry via his Aussie passport... We really don't know what will happen in the future (where the kids will work, if China will change their policy even for ethnic honest who had been traveling with Foreign passport etc), but we just have to do what we can see and do today, for tomorrow.