Seeking advice on transferring my boy from a local school to an IS

Spiderdodo

Long story short, my boy was born in the year end of 2006, going to a P4 class of a government subsidized local school now.  We are thinking of transferring him to an IS.  I've done some research online and have narrowed down my targets to two primal choices (ESF Shatin Junior and CAIS).  I know there are knowledgeable and experienced parents here who could probably give me advice on:
1) In terms of increasing the chance of getting a seat, should we apply Year 6 for the enrollment of 2016/2017 or  or Year 7 of 2017/2018 school year?  In either case, when should we submit our application?

2) Any good advice or strategies would be much appreciated.

We are HK citizens without foreign passports, living in Shatin.

Any comments are welcome.

random_dad

Spiderdodo 發表於 15-9-29 10:42
I see.  I think the school could be more transparent on how their ICN works, which will help parents ...

http://www.cais.edu.hk/school-expansion/funding/

It's reasonably clear, except for the part about only transferring back to the school (no appreciation possibility) and the future price, and they've stated it'll be higher.  I guess they can be more clear as to how much higher ($400k), but because the next set is not firm in price, I guess they feel they can't suggest a value.  Kind of caught in a bad position until the next set of ICNs are set in price.

I guess since the ICNs aren't mandatory (option for annual levy), and can only be purchased by already enrolled students, maybe they don't want to get into too much detail.  It's fairly clear to current parents at this point.

Spiderdodo

random_dad 發表於 15-9-25 09:20
There's no "trading platform" as you put it.  Every school handles debentures/capital notes differe ...

I see.  I think the school could be more transparent on how their ICN works, which will help parents with making better decisions.

random_dad

Spiderdodo 發表於 15-9-24 14:17
Would you know the mechanism of transferring an ICN?  Would there be a "trading" platform where supp ...

There's no "trading platform" as you put it.  Every school handles debentures/capital notes differently.  With CAIS, there is no appreciation opportunity.  The only option is to sell it back to the school at the face value, and I believe less an admin fee if I remember correctly.  The school will then sell it to another interested parent at potentially another face value.

Because some of the wording is perhaps ambiguous in their documents, and the way that I interpret it is the school will only buy it back only if they can resell it.  But you can only purchase an ICN as a parent/guardian of the student, so I'm not sure if there's any possibility of the school not purchasing back the ICN from the parent when you no longer have a child in the school.  But the only reason that the school wouldn't buy back the ICN is if for some reason the school's enrollment is actually down, which I believe is rather unlikely.

The school is not going to sell "more" ICNs because they can.  Even if you wanted to purchase an ICN now as a parent, the school will not be able to sell you one.  The past two rounds are closed.  Quantities of ICNs are fixed, and any issuance of the ICNs need to be approved by the board of directors, and the funds are dedicated to the build and operation of the school.  It's not like they're a for-profit to make more money, and the school's backing and management is via KTAC.

Not trying to pick on another school, but to use Harrow as an example, the approaches of the two schools are different.  Harrow has a $3m debenture, which I'm hearing now is worth way more.  So elitist money can buy an opportunity for an interview.  Harrow also hires a professional services firm that is directly affiliated to those that are in charge of the school, so the conflict-of-interest is funneling out millions of $ to those that directly set up the school (http://www.ejinsight.com/2015012 ... gh-management-firm/), plus the school effectively pays a % royalty fee to use the Harrow name.  For me, it's hard to see it as a "not-for-profit" which it is registered as.

Contrast this to CAIS, where it's controlled by KTAC (a true not-for-profit), with a long history of charitable work in HK.  The ICNs are not available to trade on the private market, so it's a much more level playing field for the kids to get into because it keeps the speculators and opportunists away.  As a non-profit, there's no reason for them to sell more ICNs unless there's an actual need, and once's the school is built, unless there's expansion, I would believe it to be unlikely they'll sell more ICNs.

Spiderdodo

random_dad 發表於 15-9-22 10:37
Some reasons:

- Maybe your child will be entering Grade 10 in 2017-2018 and you'll only be staying  ...

Would you know the mechanism of transferring an ICN?  Would there be a "trading" platform where supply meets demand?   If the school continues to issue ICNs, won't there be a risk of being unable to transfer your ICN, since buyers can easily get them from school?  I guess most of these questions won't get answers until further announcement by the school, right?  Any ideas how things are done by schools that are issuing similar notes?  

Spiderdodo

random_dad 發表於 15-9-22 10:37
Some reasons:

- Maybe your child will be entering Grade 10 in 2017-2018 and you'll only be staying  ...

Got it!  This is so informative!  Thank you!

random_dad

Spiderdodo 發表於 15-9-18 11:25
I've just checked the page and still have some queries. It talks about the most recently purchased p ...

Some reasons:

- Maybe your child will be entering Grade 10 in 2017-2018 and you'll only be staying for a few years.
- Maybe you plan on moving back to overseas to continue your child's education in a few years.
- Maybe you're on an expat on a short term employment contract.
- Maybe your employer pays for your children's tuition as part of the benefits package, and corporations can only buy the CCN at a much higher price.
- Maybe you don't have $400k free cash flow.
- Maybe you are an investment expert that can earn more than $25k/year on a $400k investment (6.25% return).

Every person's situation is different.  I know many parents that did not opt for the ICN.

Spiderdodo

random_dad 發表於 15-9-18 10:38
New school campus in construction at Butterfly Valley, anticipated occupancy date 2017-2018 academic ...

I've just checked the page and still have some queries. It talks about the most recently purchased price of an ICN at HKD 250,000, but not the new intakes for HKD 400,000.  I wonder, wouldn't every parent opts to purchase the ICN if the anticipated value will go higher and is totally transferable? Why would someone pay a non-refundable levy of 25K  if you will finally get your money back?   

Spiderdodo

random_dad 發表於 15-9-18 10:38
New school campus in construction at Butterfly Valley, anticipated occupancy date 2017-2018 academic ...

Ic, I wonder if HK's IS school fees are among world's top.

random_dad

Spiderdodo 發表於 15-9-18 10:06
"CAIS ICN @ $400k (anticipated) or $25k/year (anticipated) once the new campus is in use."

I don't  ...

New school campus in construction at Butterfly Valley, anticipated occupancy date 2017-2018 academic year.

Those that are current students have had a chance to purchase ICNs @ $200k or $250k depending on when they opted to purchase.  New intakes will either have to purchase a refundable $400k ICN before occupancy, or be subject to a non-refundable $25k annual capital levy.  ICN refundable in the year after the student leaves school or after 1st year of occupancy, at the price paid and only back to the school.  Amounts are estimated, as they have not firmed on the amount, but should be reasonable close, as they've already increased the ICN significantly.

This capital amount is significantly higher than ESF.  That being said, I wonder out loud how long ESF can hold their tuition and capital levy at the current levels as the government funding to them winds down.  For me, that is the biggest variable for someone looking at entering ESF, because what they are committing to and anticipating in costs now may not be anywhere near the same in a few years.

Spiderdodo

"CAIS ICN @ $400k (anticipated) or $25k/year (anticipated) once the new campus is in use."

I don't quite understand this part of the equation.  Could you elaborate?

random_dad

Spiderdodo 發表於 15-9-18 09:53
Yeap, CAIS has always been in my plan.  Good advice on finding more about enrollment trend from the  ...

CAIS ICN @ $400k (anticipated) or $25k/year (anticipated) once the new campus is in use.  School fees are roughly $30k/year more than ESF +/- depending on year.

Another note on CAIS...  Because there are more passport holders, there's more of a tendency for kids to leave the school for overseas, particularly at higher grades, whether as a parent's job relocation or simply returning to their passport issuing country for further education (i.e. as an escape from the HK system).  As such, my guess is the turnover at CAIS is higher than average.  On the other hand, your non-passport holding status will put you in a lower priority depending on the situation.

Spiderdodo

random_dad 發表於 15-9-18 09:41
If you don't mind spending the $1500 application fee for CAIS, I'd suggest you try.  There's a bit  ...

Yeap, CAIS has always been in my plan.  Good advice on finding more about enrollment trend from the school!
I've checked both websites, and found that the fees are more or less the same.  Didn't know that CAIS' were significantly higher.  Maybe I should double check on that one.

random_dad

Yeahp 發表於 15-9-18 09:43
Why don't you try applying CAIS for your kid? The school is expanding so there should have more chan ...

They're growing at the K3 and P1 intake, and they're not growing at the higher grades until the students move up naturally.  For a lack of a better description, like a cow moving through a snake.  So while there are 5 classes in Grade 1 (for example), there's only 4 at Grade 4 and 3 at Grade 7, which is roughly how long ago they started to increase enrollment.

Spiderdodo

Activehealth 發表於 15-9-17 21:28
My boy just started Year 7 in ESF secondary school. In last 2 terms in Year 6 ESF primary, he had fe ...

Now, that's a piece of very useful intelligence!  Thank you!

Spiderdodo

lovelyJade 發表於 15-9-17 22:33
My girl was born in 2006 too, and i hv just done transferring her from local sch to esf year 5 few w ...

Hey, that's very helpful!  Tks! I don't need to borrow any address proof though.

Yeahp

Why don't you try applying CAIS for your kid? The school is expanding so there should have more chances for getting in at any grades

random_dad

Spiderdodo 發表於 15-9-17 16:22
Got it!  I think I'll give it a shot anyway.  However, the worst scenario is not about losing the ap ...

If you don't mind spending the $1500 application fee for CAIS, I'd suggest you try.  There's a bit "more control" in the sense that you would know fairly quickly.  Applications before December, interviews in January/February, and you would know within a few weeks whether your child is accepted or not (or not accepted but on waiting list).  If academically your child is strong, and English is fine, there'a a reasonable chance at CAIS as it appears that the demand and attention is towards the K3 or P1 entry point.  I know of a few upper primary new joins this year, including one that joined well after the school year had started.  If I were you, I'd call CAIS admission and ask them what the situation was like last year at the specific grade level (i.e. whether there was a lot of people applying, how long the waiting list, etc.).  They might not tell you, but it's worth a shot in asking.

I'm sure you've considered the school fees if you've named ESF and CAIS explicitly, but CAIS is significantly more than ESF, both in annual fees as well as the ICN (aka debenture) or the annual capital levy.

Also, if the Christian component is important, then CAIS would be the preferred choice.  If, on the other hand, the Christian component is a negative, then ESF is better suited.

Spiderdodo

nintendo 發表於 15-9-17 19:16
Unless you are applying for Year 1 or Year 7, applications to ESF is accepted year round. The situat ...

Thanks for your input which I find very useful!

Radiomama

原帖由 lovelyJade 於 15-09-17 發表
My girl was born in 2006 too, and i hv just done transferring her from local sch to esf year 5 few w ...

It's not a matter of 'borrow', it's cheating.