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教育王國 › 討論區 › 課外活動 › 想買鋼琴

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樓主: sheenaho	go 想買鋼琴 [複製鏈接]

NM

Rank: 2


	32

101^#

發表於 06-4-10 14:25 |只看該作者

Re: 想買鋼琴

kcarol 寫道:
因為中間果個pedal 變左係sostenuto pedal, 而左面果個, 個sales 話廢既, 我無開過cover 睇, 有可能左邊果個只係將所有hammer 放近去strings 度
你係唔係以為我講所有model 都無soft pedal 呢??

咁你可能將sostenuto同mute pedal混淆左. 一般upright既mute pedal (i.e. "middle pedal")係中間果個. 而最左邊既soft pedal既就係仿效grand piano左邊既soft pedal. 當然, 兩者同名, 但係效果同原理則完全唔同. 現今有d upright會冇mute pedal, 但係冇soft pedal? 我就好懷疑. 你所講既果個Pleyel應該係soft+sostenuto+sustain. 一般既係soft+mute+sustain 或soft+sustain.

Rank: 4


	953

102^#

發表於 06-4-10 14:38 |只看該作者

Re: 想買鋼琴

NM
現今有d upright會冇mute pedal, 但係冇soft pedal? 你所講既果個Pleyel應該係soft+sostenuto+sustain
==> 果隻model 係右邊damper, 中間sostenuto, 左邊唔知攪乜, 因為唔開隻蓋都唔知佢係唔係將d hamper 拉近去d strings 度, 如果左邊真係一個soft pedal, 甘呢個soft pedal 真係有同無都無乜分別, 因為分別不大

你下次去tom lee 時, 不妨試一試再話我知左邊果個攪乜, 因為我次次想開個cover, 隻琴上面都放2個大大既廣告牌, 問個sales, 佢自己都話無用, 彈落去時, 又真係聽唔到有乜大分別

一般upright既mute pedal (i.e. "middle pedal")係中間果個. 而最左邊既soft pedal既就係仿效grand piano左邊既soft pedal.
==> upright 既middle pedal 多數係soft(mute) pedal, 不過左邊果個就好難話係=grand 既soft, 我自己覺得una corda 就係una corda, soft pedal 就係soft pedal, 2樣野既mechanization都唔同 (可能我自己strict 一d), 而且upright 既左邊pedal, 好似好少會係soft pedal 喎


	314

103^#

發表於 06-4-10 16:49 |只看該作者

Re: 想買鋼琴

提示: 作者被禁止或刪除內容自動屏蔽

Rank: 4


	953

104^#

發表於 06-4-10 21:47 |只看該作者

Re: 想買鋼琴

AAma_Betty
The term 'una corda' (on score) I meantioned refers to the indication of use of the left pedal, I didn't mean it is named 'una corda' in an upright.
===> Get 到你講乜!!

果個upright grand 就厲害啦, 無左個soft pedal, 都可以最平要$6xxxx (現金價)埋單, 真係非一般既鋼琴 (唔知tom lee 點解會話, 果隻琴有個唔係soft pedal, 好似soft pedal, but 無soft pedal 既效果! 你明唔明佢講乜???

我聽完一大輪, 索性自己行埋去試, 不過真係好似無乜特別效果)

When using appropriately, it adds tonal color to the piece as well and many of my students receive positive comments from examiners when using it.
==> u.c. 有時好蝦人, 份譜明明無寫, 不過加得好, 又可以將成個mood帶起晒

Do you mean you don't need to use 'mute pedal' when you practice?
==> 我會叫mute pedal 做soft pedal! 我唔用架, 踩左就一舊舊甘, 特別係有damper pedal要用時, 加左mute (soft) pedal, 就好難聽得真

Usually I would let my students know how life could be easier if they have this pedal when they need to sustain selective notes, then they would change their piano later But of course those students are all in diploma level.
==> 我都係呀, 哈哈, 我次次教完呢個pedal, d學生就用好仰慕既眼光望住我隻琴, 跟住唔駛好耐, 佢地就會換琴

Good for you that you still have space for a baby grand. My flat has almost become a mixture of kid's playground and library
==> 我都係架, 不過我劃左個禁區, 乜人都唔準入去, 入親去就罰洗廁所! 甘就一定有位! 我之前既老師, 仲誇張, 將個廳既sofa 掉晒, 用黎放一部concert grand, 唔止baby!

NM

Rank: 2


	32

105^#

發表於 06-4-10 23:17 |只看該作者

Re: 想買鋼琴

kcarol 寫道:
果隻model 係右邊damper, 中間sostenuto, 左邊唔知攪乜, 因為唔開隻蓋都唔知佢係唔係將d hamper 拉近去d strings 度, 如果左邊真係一個soft pedal, 甘呢個soft pedal 真係有同無都無乜分別, 因為分別不大
你下次去tom lee 時, 不妨試一試再話我知左邊果個攪乜, 因為我次次想開個cover, 隻琴上面都放2個大大既廣告牌, 問個sales, 佢自己都話無用, 彈落去時, 又真係聽唔到有乜大分別
=>我就係話, 左邊果個係soft pedal(姑勿論你聽到有冇分別). 唔需要打開個cover睇...依d係一般鋼琴既常識.

kcarol 寫道:
upright 既middle pedal 多數係soft(mute) pedal, 不過左邊果個就好難話係=grand 既soft, 我自己覺得una corda 就係una corda, soft pedal 就係soft pedal, 2樣野既mechanization都唔同 (可能我自己strict 一d), 而且upright 既左邊pedal, 好似好少會係soft pedal 喎

=>錯了.. 直身琴既左pedal叫soft pedal. 三角琴既叫una corda pedal, 亦常被稱為soft pedal. 大家都有個共通點就係另到聲音弱d, 雖然大家既mechanism同效果迴異. 直身琴既middle pedal 亦叫做mute, 亦可叫practice pedal. 所以, 直身琴既middle pedal 同 soft pedal 根本係兩回事.

再講清楚一點, *一般*而言:
upright: soft-practice(mute)-sustain
grand: una corda(soft)-sostenuto-sustain

請唔好怪我長氣. 我覺得有一些基本既知識, 係至少學鋼琴既人要清楚知道. 最好唔好叫錯, 亦更加唔可以誤解.

Rank: 4


	953

106^#

發表於 06-4-11 00:14 |只看該作者

Re: 想買鋼琴

NM
我就係話, 左邊果個係soft pedal(姑勿論你聽到有冇分別). 唔需要打開個cover睇...依d係一般鋼琴既常識.
==> 甘不如去問一問tom lee 佢果個係唔係soft pedal 先, 如果係一個唔可以將聲音減低既soft pedal, 甘呢個pedal 就唔係soft pedal, 得個睇字, 而pleyel 果部係無soft pedal, 最多都只係half blow pedal, 因為呢個pedal 只係將hammer 拉近去strings, 而呢個pedal 事實上係唔係真係half blow, 甘真係開左個cover 先知, 因為就算有, 都係好失敗既一個pedal, 因為個effect 細到聽唔到甘滯, tel : 27239932, model no : 124sp 同131s

錯了.. 直身琴既左pedal叫soft pedal. 三角琴既叫una corda pedal, 亦常被稱為soft pedal. 大家都有個共通點就係另到聲音弱d, 雖然大家既mechanism同效果迴異. 直身琴既middle pedal 亦叫做mute, 亦可叫practice pedal. 所以, 直身琴既middle pedal 同 soft pedal 根本係兩回事
==> 關於soft pedal 同una corda 有乜唔同, 你好似唔係好明我既意思, for 大家既reference :

The soft pedal was invented by Bartolomeo Cristofori, the inventor of the fortepiano, and thus appeared on the very earliest pianos. In the 18th and early 19th centuries, the soft pedal was more effective than today, since it was possible at that time to use it to strike three, two or even just one string per note—this is the origin of the name "una corda", Italian for "one string". In modern pianos, the strings are spaced too closely to permit a true "una corda" effect — if shifted far enough to strike just one string on one note, the hammers would also hit the string of the next note.

On upright pianos, the soft pedal operates a mechanism which moves the hammers' resting position closer to the strings. Since the hammers have less distance to travel this reduces the speed at which they hit the strings, and hence the volume is reduced, but this does not change tone quality in the way the una corda pedal does on a grand piano

我覺得有一些基本既知識, 係至少學鋼琴既人要清楚知道. 最好唔好叫錯, 亦更加唔可以誤解.
==> 我明你既意思, 不過有一d concept 我唔係好agree. 我會define 只有真係hit 1or 2 strings 先係"una corda", 有音色上既變化, otherwise 只係減低音量就係soft pedal, 既然效果同mechanism 係迴異, 用唔同既叫法會清楚d

so, 我會甘樣lable :
grand : uc -- sost. pedal -- damper
upright : soft (if 呢個pedal 只係利用felt help softer) or half blow (if 個pedal 係依靠將所有hammer 拉近strings去減低音量)-- sost. pedal (only for some pianos) -- damper
OR 將中間個pedal 變為:
1. damper pedal for only low notes
2. mute pedal (if 呢個係用fret)
3. 得個睇字無實際用途
4. any of the above

另外, 我唔會話upright piano 既pedal 由左至右一定會點點點排法, 因為除左右邊既pedal, 中間同左邊既pedal 都唔係所有piano 統一排位同叫法, 我會因應佢地既mechanism 而去lable 果一個pedal

我之前既messages 一路都係講緊pleyel 果2個models, 唔係講緊所有既琴喎

NM

Rank: 2


	32

107^#

發表於 06-4-11 00:44 |只看該作者

Re: 想買鋼琴

kcarol 寫道:
so, 我會甘樣lable :
grand : uc -- sost. pedal -- damper
upright : soft (if 呢個pedal 只係help softer) -- sost. pedal (only for some pianos) -- damper
OR 將中間個pedal 變為:
1. damper pedal for only low notes
2. mute pedal (如果係減低音量既, 我會叫soft pedal)

你段quote都已經話"On upright pianos, the soft pedal operates a mechanism which moves the hammers' resting position closer to the strings". 即係左邊個pedal, 唔係中間個mute/practice pedal.　Mute pedal既mechanism係另一回事．

你講左兩次:
1. upright 既middle pedal 多數係soft(mute) pedal
2. mute pedal (如果係減低音量既, 我會叫soft pedal)

我再不勝其煩講：
"Soft pedal"係一個統稱, 無論在upright或grand, 左邊既pedal一律可以叫soft pedal, *雖然結構和效果不同*. 當然, 學你講, 用"una corda pedal"黎叫grand既左pedal更specific, 但係絕對唔應該攪亂upright既soft medal = mute. Mute就係mute, soft就係soft, 唔係話"我會咁叫"就係咁叫. 講錯, 教錯都唔好. 你可以參考一下piano construction既書去考究下.

至於個Pleyel, 唔需要問Tom Lee sales. 你可以直按email問Pleyel個廠, 就可以清楚知道錯在那裹(我諗始終都係由佢地講你會明白些).

Rank: 4


	953

108^#

發表於 06-4-11 01:04 |只看該作者

Re: 想買鋼琴

NM
Mute就係mute, soft就係soft
==> 係無mute 呀, soft 唔知有無啦, 個sales 話無soft pedal 既, 出黎效果無乜分別, 唔開cover, 點知果個係soft/half blow, 唔係一般既琴有, 就話pleyel 果隻一定有

in short, 我一路都係話緊""""""pleyel 果個model"" 無soft pedal, 因為佢""最多""只係將d hammers 拉近去d strings度", 呢個model 亦無built in mute pedal.

Half blow pedal
The left pedal on most modern upright pianos. Moves the hammer rest rail forward towards the strings so that the blow distance is reduced, thus reducing the power of the action by introducing lost motion, or reducing the depth of touch.

Practice pedal
Usually the middle pedal on a modern upright. Drops a strip of celeste felt between the hammers and the strings, to quieten the piano for practice without annoying the neighbors!

我講緊係pleyel, 唔係all the pianos, 你鍾意點叫就點叫

NM

Rank: 2


	32

109^#

發表於 06-4-11 01:15 |只看該作者

Re: 想買鋼琴

kcarol 寫道:
==> 係無mute 呀, soft 唔知有無啦, 個sales 話無soft pedal 既, 出黎效果無乜分別, 唔開cover, 點知果個係soft/half blow, 唔係一般既琴有, 就話pleyel 果隻一定有
in short, 我一路都係話緊""""""pleyel 果個model"" 無soft pedal, 因為佢""最多""只係將d hammers 拉近去d strings度", 呢個model 亦無built in mute pedal.

Half blow pedal
The left pedal on most modern upright pianos. Moves the hammer rest rail forward towards the strings so that the blow distance is reduced, thus reducing the power of the action by introducing lost motion, or reducing the depth of touch.

Practice pedal
Usually the middle pedal on a modern upright. Drops a strip of celeste felt between the hammers and the strings, to quieten the piano for practice without annoying the neighbors!

我講緊係pleyel, 唔係all the pianos, 你鍾意點叫就點叫

如果個琴有三個pedals, 左邊果個唔係soft pedal, 就真係好有趣. 我諗真係要見識下. 聽日就去睇. 另外, 你話"pleyel 果個model 無soft pedal, 因為佢最多只係將d hammers 拉近去d strings度". 依個正正就係soft pedal 呀!

當人人都叫個left pedal, 無論係upright或grand, 做soft pedal既時候, 你就硬要話"soft pedal = upright middle pedal", 我覺得"鍾意點叫就點叫"果個係...

Rank: 4


	953

110^#

發表於 06-4-11 01:29 |只看該作者

Re: 想買鋼琴

NM
唔記得係邊本書啦, 曾經界定soft pedal 同half blow pedal :
half blow : 將hammers 拉埋strings
soft (mute) : 用fret 減低音量

就算係tom less 既sales 佢地都唔知有half blow 呢樣野, 會將mute=soft; 我就相信果個pedal 最多只係half blow, 仲要就算係真係half blow 都係好唔掂果種, 你睇完話我知果個到底係half blow 定係得個樣! (我之前問過好幾次有無soft pedal, 唔係mute pedal 喎, 佢地都話無用, 所以我次次都想開個cover, 佢地都唔拎開個廣告牌開俾我睇

)

其實你講既soft pedal, 更specific 係half blow, 因為half blow 係講緊d hammer 近左strings, 所以發聲既distance 距離短左而叫half blow, 所以好多時好多爭議係soft pedal, mute pedal 同一個好少人知既half blow pedal

而人人都甘叫, 又唔代表果d名一定係approprate/最貼切; 如果跟果本書既叫法, 好似同好多人既叫法好有出入, 不過我就覺得佢地甘樣lable d pedals 就貼切好多, 起碼一聽, 就已經知道個pedal 既mechanism 係點, 唔係話middle pedal = soft pedal, 而係因應唔同既mechanism 而有唔同既叫法

NM

Rank: 2


	32

111^#

發表於 06-4-11 08:40 |只看該作者

Re: 想買鋼琴

kcarol 寫道:
唔記得係邊本書啦, 曾經界定soft pedal 同half blow pedal :
half blow : 將hammers 拉埋strings
soft (mute) : 用fret 減低音量

其實你講既soft pedal, 更specific 係half blow, 因為half blow 係講緊d hammer 近左strings, 所以發聲既distance 距離短左而叫half blow, 所以好多時好多爭議係soft pedal, mute pedal 同一個好少人知既half blow pedal

而人人都甘叫, 又唔代表果d名一定係approprate/最貼切; 如果跟果本書既叫法, 好似同好多人既叫法好有出入, 不過我就覺得佢地甘樣lable d pedals 就貼切好多, 起碼一聽, 就已經知道個pedal 既mechanism 係點, 唔係話middle pedal = soft pedal, 而係因應唔同既mechanism 而有唔同既叫法

Half blow 依個名已經好少用(用都係形容個mechanism多). Upright既soft pedal就係將hammers同strings既距離拉近. 你所講唔記得邊本書既quote, 係唔係真係寫"soft (mute) : 用fret 減低音量"? 本書係寫"Soft (mute)"定係"Mute"? (再者, 係"felt", 唔係"fret".. 所以我好懷疑你quote錯) 我可以推薦一本書俾你: Larry Fine既The Piano Book. 入面就好清楚講明無論係upright或grand, 個left pedal都統稱為"soft pedal", 亦有提及在upright piano中, 個soft pedal同mute pedal既分別. Soft pedal, mute pedal, 同half-blow pedal根本就唔會有任何爭議.

正確, 唔係話人人都甘叫, 就代表果d名一定係approprate/最貼切, 但係我可以話你知, 將upright piano既soft pedal叫做mute pedal -that is simply wrong and misleading. (你唔好依家先至話"唔係話middle pedal = soft pedal", 因為之前幾個post你已經多次將佢地劃上等號)

Rank: 3 Rank: 3


	117

112^#

發表於 06-4-11 10:26 |只看該作者

Re: 想買鋼琴

From www.bluebookofpianos.com:

On most vertical pianos the pedal to the right is a full sustain pedal and by depressing it, the piano tone will linger on or sustain the note. The left pedal is known as the "Una Corda", which softens or limits the power of the tone by moving the action forward and limiting the distance the hammers travel. On a grand piano it shifts the action slightly, enabling the hammer to strike fewer strings.

A third pedal in the middle varies from brand to brand. It may serve to sustain the bass notes only, or it may act as another form of soft. In some cases, it drops a piece of felt to provide a muffler, or practice pedal.

On a grand, it becomes a true "Sustenuto", that is, allowing the pianist to sustain many notes as long as the pedal is held.

Rank: 3 Rank: 3


	117

113^#

發表於 06-4-11 10:28 |只看該作者

Re: 想買鋼琴

From www.amarilli.co.uk:

Una corda pedal

The left pedal on a grand piano, and occasionally on an upright piano. The pedal shifts the whole action to one side so that the hammers strike only two out of three strings in the trichords, or one out of two in the bichords.

Half blow pedal

The left pedal on most modern upright pianos. Moves the hammer rest rail forward towards the strings so that the blow distance is reduced, thus reducing the power of the action by introducing lost motion, or reducing the depth of touch. Occasionally found as the left pedal on small grand pianos.

Sustain pedal

The right pedal on all pianos. Lifts all the dampers simultaneously, causing notes to sustain and resonate.

Practice pedal

Usually the middle pedal on a modern upright. Drops a strip of celeste felt between the hammers and the strings, to quieten the piano for practice without annoying the neighbors!

Celeste pedal

See Practice pedal. On older upright overdamper pianos, this may be the left pedal. A strip of celeste felt is brought up between the hammers and the strings, to quieten the piano.

Sostenuto pedal

The middle pedal on many grand pianos. Lifts the dampers of notes whose keys are already depressed, leaving the other dampers unaffected. Occasionally a middle pedal on a small grand piano is colloquially called the 'sostenuto' pedal, when in fact it lifts all the bass dampers simultaneously.

Rank: 3 Rank: 3


	117

114^#

發表於 06-4-11 10:40 |只看該作者

Re: 想買鋼琴

From www.schimmel-piano.de:
The soft pedal (left pedal) causes the half-blow rail
to be pushed forward, reducing the hammer-blow distance,
reducing hammer accelleration and kinetic energy.

----------
Through the discussion, we can understand how the pedals work a lot better now.

Thanks.

NM

Rank: 2


	32

115^#

發表於 06-4-11 11:04 |只看該作者

Re: 想買鋼琴

ckwok1 寫道:
From www.schimmel-piano.de:
The soft pedal (left pedal) causes the half-blow rail
to be pushed forward, reducing the hammer-blow distance, reducing hammer accelleration and kinetic energy.
[/quote]

Thanks ckwok1 for verifying
soft pedal = left pedal = half-blow pedal
(at least on an upright)

Another reference can be found at BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A625637
(under the section "Una Corda Pedal")

I think the useful information from various sites, plus the authorative notes from Fine's book, will settle the issue once and for all.

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