一線LS定係”二線”IS？ - 國際學校

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樓主: twoh	go 一線LS定係”二線”IS？ [複製鏈接]

shadeslayer

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發表於 17-11-28 19:19 |只看該作者

Baymax2009 發表於 17-11-28 18:57
架構師可以不做programming，但完全不懂programming是不可能，而通常他們的代碼都寫得超級無敵好。有一個 ...

這些幾百萬年薪的人如果每日只寫 program, 仲會唔會收幾百萬？

The more bizzare a thing is, the less mysterious it proves to be.

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samsam123321

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本帖最後由 samsam123321 於 18-6-27 00:27 編輯

RunningPig 發表於 17-11-28 15:02
本帖最後由 RunningPig 於 17-11-28 15:03 編輯

我曾經在這些科技巨企工作多年，我有很多舊同事年薪半 ...

del.....

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lui

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tibbar2011 發表於 17-11-28 14:24
回覆 shadeslayer 的帖子

"課外活動又包埋" - is that so? the kids i know of who go to international ...

You are right.

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Baymax2009

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shadeslayer 發表於 17-11-28 19:19
這些幾百萬年薪的人如果每日只寫 program, 仲會唔會收幾百萬？

hk沒有，在美國top公司有的（甚至內地也有，但極端例子沒有普遍意義）。

其實我意思是top student做什麼都會出頭，入行從coding起做，之後上升也很快，我讀的是cs相關專業，到這個年紀當年學業優秀的同學也大多都是知名外企管理中層以上了。

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shadeslayer

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Baymax2009 發表於 17-11-28 20:18
hk沒有，在美國top公司有的（甚至內地也有，但極端例子沒有普遍意義）。

其實我意思是top student做什麼 ...

本帖最後由 shadeslayer 於 17-11-28 20:41 編輯

幾百萬年薪美國只做 coding, 想見識下。普遍性高不高呢？唔係 software Architect, 唔係 project manager, 係 coder 喎！如果 coder 要幾百萬，咁 system architect, project manager, project lead, designer, researchers 收幾多錢？起馬一千萬喇。

一個叻人每日可 code 幾多條 line 連 debug? 一個普通software 要幾條 lines?成本如何控制？印度不同程度的 programmer 也有，為何不 outsource 或用 H1B?

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Baymax2009

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shadeslayer 發表於 17-11-28 20:29
本帖最後由 shadeslayer 於 17-11-28 20:41 編輯

幾百萬年薪美國只做 coding, 想見識下。普遍性高不高 ...

說得是top students，當然不具普遍意義，內地top生中的top才讀得上清華的計算機通訊類專業，去向和起薪可以看一下。說到底hk是缺少這一行的入門職位（全部外包出去），想畢業後留港發展的我也不建議選讀cs，就業市場決定，並不是因為我看不起coding。

目前看到base在hk年薪百萬以上的IT高級職位都是需要有技術背景和豐富經驗，所以大多數只能外招。

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RunningPig

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發表於 17-11-28 21:27 |只看該作者

回覆樓主:

I worked in one of those companies before so I know how much money and respect software engineers can get purely because of their technical skills. Microsoft, Google, and alike set up a separate career ladder in the US or even China so that technical people can stay focused at technical and some of them can make as much as a VP or Senior VP. I just find it funny to see people assume what they see in Hong Kong must be true in other places in the world. Programming is not low level but the projects handled by those people.

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Baymax2009

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RunningPig 發表於 17-11-28 21:27
I worked in one of those companies before so I know how much money and respect software engineers ca ...

True. All super smart and talented guys. I show great respect to them too. ^^

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shadeslayer

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RunningPig 發表於 17-11-28 21:27
I worked in one of those companies before so I know how much money and respect software engineers ca ...

本帖最後由 shadeslayer 於 17-11-29 00:06 編輯

Do you know how many Indian software engineers/programmers do US import from India and typically H1B people earn much less than the US counterpart.

if you talk about top guys in the field then pretty much every one command the respect and salary you mentioned. Hardware designers, marketers, lawyers, painters etc.

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shadeslayer

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Baymax2009 發表於 17-11-28 20:56
說得是top students，當然不具普遍意義，內地top生中的top才讀得上清華的計算機通訊類專業，去向和起薪可 ...

本帖最後由 shadeslayer 於 17-11-29 00:20 編輯

這討論係因為有人在EK 比較 programming language vs mandarin.當然係講 HK students.用行業 top guys in the US?How many everyday programmers in HK are struggling for work? You want to tell them in their face?

咁嘅資訊有助EK家長？

並不是看不起 coding 或砌磚工人，佢地係基層的 building blocks, 是重要，也是事實。孩子立志要做，也可能不是壞事，但叫做最有前途/錢途，我真係講唔出口。

Microsoft, Alibaba, Uber, DJI, Amazon, eBay, Minecraft, 無數 tech giants 的成功不是程式寫得好。

Programming is a commodity and is seldom a product differentiator.

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Baymax2009

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shadeslayer 發表於 17-11-29 00:01
本帖最後由 shadeslayer 於 17-11-29 00:20 編輯

這討論係因為有人在EK 比較 programming language vs ...

sorry我只是講很多人對待這一行業的態度。是說如果本地的尖子生願意選擇在hk以外一些地方發展，IT都可以是很賺錢很有尊嚴的行業，不選擇當然沒關係，都去讀醫科都沒關係，但不應因為「少香港人做」「外包」就將整個Computer Science鄙視為低端的工作。

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shadeslayer

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Baymax2009 發表於 17-11-29 00:28
sorry我只是講很多人對待這一行業的態度。是說如果本地的尖子生願意選擇在hk以外一些地方發展，IT都可以是 ...

本帖最後由 shadeslayer 於 17-11-29 00:49 編輯

Now you are shifting the goal post.I have only said programmer, the original poster said programming language is more important than PTH, now you want to shift to Computer Science as a whole.

CS is much much much more than just programming.Business, Project management, Information architecture, Information Security, Operations management. etc etc.

Now information security has much better prospect than just coding.

Unless someone is selling coding classes to kids , otherwise there is no reason to learn too much programming too early. most parents worry about too much screen time, more programming too young means even more screen time.

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Baymax2009

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shadeslayer 發表於 17-11-29 00:44
本帖最後由 shadeslayer 於 17-11-29 00:49 編輯

Now you are shifting the goal post.I have only sai ...

It seemed we misunderstood each other. I barely know anyone who has a ‘proper’ college degree doing what you said —‘just coding’...... but almost all of them (who major in CS) started their career doing some kind of coding. It felt quite ok to call someone a programmer until I saw your posts. (I used to call my friend that. He’s a system architect but also a brilliant programmer.)

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FattyDaddy

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Baymax2009 發表於 17-11-29 01:17
almost all of them (who major in CS) started their career doing some kind of coding ...

I concur, I have never seen any successful IT professional who didn't start off with some involvement in coding, just like we would never see a conductor of an orchestra who never played a musical instrument. Sure enough, a conductor may no longer play much, but it would be well nigh impossible to conduct without knowing and feeling the instruments.

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FattyDaddy

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發表於 17-11-29 02:46 |只看該作者

shadeslayer 發表於 17-11-29 00:44
no reason to learn too much programming too early ...

It is hard to say when is "too early", the main benefit of learning to code is not so much in learning the programming language but the logical thinking behind. Coding is just laying down a set of instructions for a dumb machine (or person) to follow, some instructions can be executed in parallel while some must be done serially in a certain order, some needs to be repeated a certain number of times, some need or need not be performed depending on certain conditions etc. It is this skill of organizing ones thoughts and managing tasks which should be learnt, rather than memorizing the syntax and semantics of a programming language.

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shadeslayer

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FattyDaddy 發表於 17-11-29 02:12
I concur, I have never seen any successful IT professional who didn't start off with some involvemen ...

The original way they say it was programming language is better than PTH and programmer 是最有前途/錢途。

If it was programming is a great stepping stone to a great career in CS, or CS 是最有前途/錢途，i world not have responded.

The more bizzare a thing is, the less mysterious it proves to be.

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shadeslayer

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FattyDaddy 發表於 17-11-29 02:46
It is hard to say when is "too early", the main benefit of learning to code is not so much in learni ...

本帖最後由 shadeslayer 於 17-11-29 07:30 編輯

ah, coding is only one of the many ways to learn logic and systematic approach to problem solving. there are other alternatives or even better ones, eg Debate, philosophy classes.

I never pitch against learning coding and almost all students these days whether they are LS or IS, have some coding training.

I am just wary of the notion that small children need more screen time to practice more coding than they already have.because programmer is 最有前途錢途。

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RunningPig

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shadeslayer 發表於 17-11-29 07:29
本帖最後由 shadeslayer 於 17-11-29 07:30 編輯

ah, coding is only one of the many ways to learn l ...

本帖最後由 RunningPig 於 17-11-29 09:53 編輯

I am sure that good technical talents is one of the most important factors that companies like Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Amazon, Tencent, and Alibaba suceed (I or my friends worked there). That's why they keep a separate career track for technicals to stay technical. If you haven't worked in those companies, stop saying that programming is not a success factor.

Btw inside the industry most people use computer science and programming interchangeably. When we talk about programming, we refer to proper programming with algorthms and computer concepts. Programming is low level only in the context that you had exposure to but that is not the case in the real tech industry.

I know the pathetic career path of most programmers in HK (although as Baymax2009 said, if you are proficient in English and programming, you can still command a good salary in HK). Here is the International School forum and I guess many parents want to know about the situation in the US or China. If you are not one of them, I am sorry -- my sharing is not for you.

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ZackMama

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發表於 17-11-29 09:36 |只看該作者

回覆樓主

FYI, learning programming these days does not necessarily mean more screen time any more:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/543628386/algobrix-the-ultimate-coding-learning-game?utm_campaign=TRS&utm_content=TRS_30&utm_medium=FB&utm_source=TRS_30&utm_term=384ba8f7-9bd1-4e7a-b6b1-a576c9c4df07

(Not affiliated)

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FattyDaddy