你們認為子女讀英中好還是中中好？ - 小學雜談

ChingMa

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Re: 你們認為子女讀英中好還是中中好？

eviepa及各位，

各位的討論實在太有深度, 令人獲益不少，忍不住插嘴...

我在國際學校工作,看到有很多學生是在國際學校長大的, 有些學生則是從本地學校轉過來的, 一些觀察也許可以給大家做參考:

-在英語環境長大的孩子, 大部份討厭中文, 因為中文比起英文很難, 很煩, 很悶...如果再遇上不懂得提起學習中文興趣的老師或家長, 學生通常很快放棄中文...(他們長大後大多很後悔)

-在中文環境長大的孩子, 大部份會害怕英文, 因為平時用得少, 掌握得不好, 但是通常他們到了一個英文的環境, 也很快可以適應得過來. (半年吧...)

-在中英文並重的學校受教育的學子(通常是一些名校), 通常孩子會傾向喜歡英文, 而討厭中文. 但基本上他們的中英文水平都不錯(英文會比中文好), 但是他們要付出的代價就是"苦讀"及"競爭", 犧牲快樂的童年.....

作為一個父母, 我本來的理想學校是一個中英文並重, 但又不需"苦讀"學習的學校. 香港近年來出現一些這類型的新新學校, 但由於太太新了, 又不知道這些學校會不會造就出中英文都"半桶水"的人...因此又不敢一試...

自從女兒出生後, 我就開始為她的中英文學習而左右茅盾. 最後仍決定讓她留在本地學校, 打好中文基礎, 再另外加強英文, 當然包括課外英文活動及家庭教育. 我女兒目前才P1, 我和evispa一樣, 從小使用"大量閱讀法"補充英文, 效果真的不錯, 她的詞彙量比同齡孩子都大很多．

但是我仍有很多擔憂：　
１）我不像eviapa一樣對這種家庭教育的前景充滿信心，因為我相信當孩子慢慢長大了，如果她一直留在中文環境中，她對中文的掌握越得心應手，她便會開始抗拒學英文．．．, It's called "language preference". 到了中學，這種情況會更明顯，因為還有重要的”同儕效應”，如果同儕都是使用中文的人，孩子使用英文時更不自然，他們會刻意避開令自己出糗的語言．．．英文將只流於英語課的閱讀及書寫語言。

２）以家庭教育補充英文的結果，常是孩子的英語水平遠遠高於同校學生，高於學校使用的教材，我擔心孩子會不會因此對學校的英文學習失去興趣？（例如一個五年級英語水平的學生去上三年級的課程可能覺得很無聊），不知evispa的女兒對學校課程有何反應？　

3) 英文口音問題. 我不知道當孩子讀完中小、中中之後, 就算他們出國讀書, 很快地學好英文的同時, 是否又能學到道地的英語口音呢?

基於以上的擔憂, 我猜將來等我女兒中文有一定基礎後, 我可能便考慮把她轉入一家較重視中文的英語學校….不過, 這也只是一已之見, 而且純粹是從語言的角度出發…未考慮到性格發展等其他因素…

各位若知道香港有哪間小學能中英文並重, 又不需犧牲快樂童年, 又有一定的學術水平者, 萬望告之…

又, 對”母語教育”, 我想補充一點的是:

對國際學校的學生而言, 大多數都是以”非母語”做為教學語言. 以香港孩子為例, 雖然母語是廣東話，但他們在學校用的卻是英語及普通話, 剛開始可能有點困難, 但當時間一久, 他們會漸漸的將英語及普通話發展成他們的”母語”, 亦及是他們思考的語言. 在這種情況下, 不管他們用的是哪一種語言, 都不會防礙思考. (當然, 在語言時間分配的原則下，他們最後是以英文為主, 中文為輔的思考模式, 正如新加坡的例子)

以上拙見, 盼有更多回應及討論.

stccmc

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發表於 06-10-10 01:44 |只看該作者

Re: 你們認為子女讀英中好還是中中好？

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katyfok

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Re: 你們認為子女讀英中好還是中中好？

講到新加坡，不如講亚洲四小龍，講埋日本，講埋非律賓、講埋印度。

非律賓，印度之英文水平不錯吧，經濟發展如何。非律賓之英話不錯吧，最出名之產品是賓妹。可見，一個地區能否發展，和英不英文是沒有關係的。

亚洲四小龍，加埋日本有何共同特點：深受中國文化影響，日本、南韓現在雖不是用中文，但大量翻譯了中國文獻，令他們一代一代地接受中國文化之教育。日本、南韓的英文水平可說是四小龍中最差的，但他們的發展是最具看頭。相反新加坡，除了他們獨有之新加坡式英話外，毫無特別，或曰無性格就是他的性格。

可見，一個民族之發展，首重國民質素，國民質素最重要是思考能力和創意。用母話易達至目標，還是用教師和學生都未掌握到之英語？不錯，我們要學好一門外語，但不能為了學好外語，就用外語來做教育語言。

至於母語是用廣東話呢？還是普通話呢？秦未統一六國時，中國是有幾種文字的。秦統一了文字，但未統一語言，幾千年來，中國人都是用各自之語言去讀書，又用統一了之文字去寫文章。至現代，提倡我手寫我ロ，北京人之歷史、文化和廣東明顯不同，請問廣東人又怎能用我手寫北京人之口呢？再者，廣東之大，人口之眾多，相等於歐州之國家，有冇見法國人、西班牙人有冇成日諗住放棄母語呢？又康有為、梁啓超、孫中山等人，是否用普通話学習呢？

AGREE !

WYmom

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發表於 06-10-10 07:12 |只看該作者

Re: 你們認為子女讀英中好還是中中好？

ChingMa,

I have same thinking as yours, I guess your kids are still young, so have not changed to another school yet?

Same as you and eviepa, I have helped my daughter with English reading when she studied in local school, and then helped her in keeping her Chinese when she studied in an IS, seems that she can still keep the right standard level in Chinese and English at her age (10) now (she likes to read a lot both English and Chinese books at her age level). She is Y.6 now and yet I am not sure how her path should go further in secondary stage. As you said, a lot of bilingual schools are very new, so worry that both Chinese and English may not be very good... If famous local school, the way of teaching is very traditional, if IS, Chinese is very minimal, homeschooling is no longer very possible at secondary stage, so how to choose?

Can you give me some advice? Thanks a lot.

TWMa

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發表於 06-10-10 10:53 |只看該作者

Re: 你們認為子女讀英中好還是中中好？

在英語環境長大的孩子, 大部份討厭中文, 因為中文比起英文很難, 很煩, 很悶...如果再遇上不懂得提起學習中文興趣的老師或家長, 學生通常很快放棄中文...(他們長大後大多很後悔)

不只是讀 IS 的學生有這個問題, 如果選擇以英語為主要授課語言的 local school, 學生也大多抗拒中文, 而且年紀愈小愈明顯. 但讀 local school 較難放棄中文, 不喜歡也得塞一些進腦袋, 加上始終身處中文世界, 仍能具備基本的中文能力.

對國際學校的學生而言, 大多數都是以”非母語”做為教學語言. 以香港孩子為例, 雖然母語是廣東話，但他們在學校用的卻是英語及普通話, 剛開始可能有點困難, 但當時間一久, 他們會漸漸的將英語及普通話發展成他們的”母語”, 亦及是他們思考的語言. 在這種情況下, 不管他們用的是哪一種語言, 都不會防礙思考.

讀國際學校的孩童, 很少純粹以廣東話為 "母語" 的, 這和香港大部分學童的先天條件不同, 此外, 國際學校的教學模式和學習要求也和香港的主流學校不同, 這些都是討論 "母語教學" 要思及之處.

至於用廣東話 (母語) 或普通話做為中文教學語言的問題, 用新加坡做例子其實不太恰當, 新加坡訂第一語言是英文, 第二語言為普通話, 所有電視節目 (影響力最廣) 不是講英文便是普通話, 不管家中講什麼語言, 大環境最主要的語言就是這兩種, 所以, 國民普遍具備這兩種語言能力是有原因的 (具備此能力, 但不是表示能力佳).
我喜歡用普通話做為中文的教學語言, 但是, 如果香港政府沒有相應的措施配合的話, 對許多的學童而言, 我認為一樣是未得其利, 先受其害.

老狐狸

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發表於 06-10-10 14:44 |只看該作者

Re: 你們認為子女讀英中好還是中中好？

香港學生的英語水平...
大家有否覺得香港學生的英文水準下降得很厲害??

今天我看了 40 多封求職信, 有大學, 有中七, 竟然找不出一封信是沒有語法錯誤的. 甚至可以犯上 "It has a 3 years degrees", "I am your good choose" 等等錯誤???

不是說 "母語教學" 很成功嗎??

到底各位在學學生有否危機感??? [henry_hc0202]

老狐狸

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Re: 你們認為子女讀英中好還是中中好？

I agree that the English standard of Hong Kong student is not as competent as you imagined, however I think it is not that bad. Since we adopted communication approach in Primary School to teach English, students have never received a comprehensive traning in Grammar and Vocabularies, it is common for a matriculation or University student to make a grammar error, as long as they can express what they want to.

As I am one of the student studying in a CMI school for my first three years of Secondary School, I admit that mother tongue teaching did reduces the chance for speaking and hearing English. However, it is not something that cannot be overcome. For those students, you should grasp your opportunity to learn English outside classroom, though I was in a CMI mode of teaching for first three years I still attained an A in CE.

Finally, mother tongue teaching did improve students critical thinking skills and involvement in many subjects but the point is that students should put more effort to learn English themselves. [thomas41823999]

老狐狸

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Re: 你們認為子女讀英中好還是中中好？

大家可以睇下上[下]面話會考 A 的文章, 如果你已經 CHECK 過 GRAMMER 既, 咁我完全明白現在學生的英文質素: 短短 180 字入面, 大大小小的用詞不當, GRAMMATICAL MISTAKES 同 CARELESS MISTAKES 共有 20 多處.
相信會考 E 級的作文更加慘不忍睹...
香港學生好明顯係懶 !!!! 只要睇返 YAHOO 知識 +, 幾多人連字典都懶我去查. 上網係知識 + 打得條問題, 點解唔去 YAHOO 字典呀???
但我都十分贊成 "阿里主人" 既 POINT... 自己沒料就懶人地, 真係香港學生的通病 ! [henry_hc0202評價]

stccmc

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發表於 06-10-10 22:19 |只看該作者

Re: 你們認為子女讀英中好還是中中好？

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mattsmum

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Re: 你們認為子女讀英中好還是中中好？

"２）以家庭教育補充英文的結果，常是孩子的英語水平遠遠高於同校學生，高於學校使用的教材，我擔心孩子會不會因此對學校的英文學習失去興趣？（例如一個五年級英語水平的學生去上三年級的課程可能覺得很無聊），不知evispa的女兒對學校課程有何反應？"
　
Local school's emphasis is in grammar and dictation. Even if you childis good in English, she might not be able to get a wonderful exam result. so there is still challenge for her.

"3) 英文口音問題. 我不知道當孩子讀完中小、中中之後, 就算他們出國讀書, 很快地學好英文的同時, 是否又能學到道地的英語口音呢?"

need to let them leave earlier, at form 2 or 3.

"作為一個父母, 我本來的理想學校是一個中英文並重, 但又不需"苦讀"學習的學校"
me too. or the other way round: a real international school with good chinese course. maybe there is one in hk.

warrrren

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發表於 06-10-11 10:09 |只看該作者

Re: 你們認為子女讀英中好還是中中好？

Dear ChingMa,

各位若知道香港有哪間小學能中英文並重, 又不需犧牲快樂童年, 又有一定的學術水平者, 萬望告之…

I am a happy ISF parent and suggest that you take a serious look of ISF. You have to see it to believe how wonderful the school and the students are. Open day on 25/11. Link: http://www.isf.edu.hk/ .

ChingMa

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發表於 06-10-12 19:12 |只看該作者

Re: 你們認為子女讀英中好還是中中好？

Thanks a lot, Warrrren,

I've visited the ISF website and the school looks great. I believe kids are learning happily there. One thing good to me is that they put Chinese as a main teaching medium in primary school with a lot of emphasis in English, then switching to English gradually in secondary school. That is indeed an ideal pattern for me in terms of learning language.
It seems it's a new school running IB. To be honesty, I am not confidence with IB schools in HK at this stage although IB becomes a trend now.
Will pay a visit on their open day ...thanks again.

ChingMa

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發表於 06-10-12 19:20 |只看該作者

Re: 你們認為子女讀英中好還是中中好？

[quote]
mattsmum 寫道:
"２）以家庭教育補充英文的結果，常是孩子的英語水平遠遠高於同校學生，高於學校使用的教材，我擔心孩子會不會因此對學校的英文學習失去興趣？（例如一個五年級英語水平的學生去上三年級的課程可能覺得很無聊），不知evispa的女兒對學校課程有何反應？"
　
Local school's emphasis is in grammar and dictation. Even if you childis  good in English, she might not be able to get a wonderful exam result. so there is still challenge for her.

-yes, spelling is challenging for my girl.

"3) 英文口音問題. 我不知道當孩子讀完中小、中中之後, 就算他們出國讀書, 很快地學好英文的同時, 是否又能學到道地的英語口音呢?"

need to let them leave earlier, at form 2 or 3.

-I think so.  However, when leaving at P2, 3, a kid's Chinese foundation is still very weak. Parents' effort for keeping Chinese standard will be very important.

THANKS FOR THE INPUT!!

囝囝爸

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發表於 06-10-12 23:49 |只看該作者

Re: 你們認為子女讀英中好還是中中好？

今天到圖書館去替囝囝找一本書, 順道看到趙榮德副校長在今期"親子便利" 寫的一篇文章, 標題為"英中好, 還是中中好?"  何其巧合, 不知他是否看到eviepa 在BK 的提問, 有感而作?

文章內容大意為……

如家長關心孩子, 他提議為孩子們找一間好學校.  好學校可使孩子健康成長, 潛質顯現, 成績好, 更容易入大學, 前途有保障.

教局曾委託中大進行一個為期五年的英中和中中學習研究, 追蹤一百間學校由中一至中五的學生,  結果為：中中生英文科不及英中, 但社會學科成績則中中凌駕英中.

中大曾榮光教授認為母語教學政策, 造成英語或學科成績不可兼得, 兩選其一的兩難局面.

曾教授說母語教學不能提升英語能力.  他相信2007年英文科取消程度較淺課程甲後, 中中生面對「英語前景」的信心將更弱, 更容易放棄.

趙副校長在他文章總結說, 要文科或術科好, 要英中還是中中?  他會選英中, 原因是如小學六年中文, 到中學又六年中文, 入大學時突然全方位改用英文教學, 學生不目瞪口呆幾稀矣!

mattsmum

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發表於 06-10-13 00:05 |只看該作者

Re: 你們認為子女讀英中好還是中中好？

"入大學時突然全方位改用英文教學, 學生不目瞪口呆幾稀矣!"

working environment- many of the big firms are still using english as the working language. more surprise then.

mothershares

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發表於 06-10-13 01:51 |只看該作者

Re: 你們認為子女讀英中好還是中中好？

//如家長關心孩子, 他提議為孩子們找一間好學校. 好學校可使孩子健康成長, 潛質顯現, 成績好, 更容易入大學, 前途有保障.

中大曾榮光教授認為母語教學政策, 造成英語或學科成績不可兼得, 兩選其一的兩難局面.

趙副校長在他文章總結說, 要文科或術科好, 要英中還是中中? 他會選英中, 原因是如小學六年中文, 到中學又六年中文, 入大學時突然全方位改用英文教學, 學生不目瞪口呆幾稀矣!//

認同此說法．
魚與熊掌．我的priority: 1) 校風，德育叫孩子一生受用，正確人生觀令人快樂，勝過懂得多國語言　２）教學語言，英中，在HK，要學好英文要比孩子有機會多聽多講，學校是其中一個途徑，但一定不會放棄中文，亦不要只有初中程度那種，這只會自欺欺人，所以不會選擇　international school,3) 教學模式 - 教學模式只是一個概念，尤其在HK這功利社會，往往出產很多只著重包裝但無內涵的所謂新派學校（當然有例外但不多），其實重點在於"師資"二字，個人亦不太相信IB那套能在HK推行得好．

以上只是個人意見，心目中亦巳有選擇．不知各位有沒有訂下priority?

cycchor

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發表於 06-10-13 02:26 |只看該作者

Re: 你們認為子女讀英中好還是中中好？

很久沒有在此版留言,一直覺得此版發言的家長都是有思想之輩, 其實大家只要把此等優點傳給下一代, 則問題不就解決了嗎?

本人十分同意某位家長(對不起, 未能引其名)所言, 其實每個人都會有自己喜歡使用的語言, 只要喜歡, 就會學得較好. 學習環境只是一種輔助, 矢志求學的, 不會因為環境不配合而學不成的. [size=large]所以就讀於中中,英中並不重要. 重要的是: 你的孩子喜歡學習嗎?

語文能力是重要的, 但是君不見中環夜市中很多操流行英文或中文的青年(30歲以下), 他們的言行思想又是多麼幼稚? 一個老掉牙的說法是:鸚鵡能言, 能與人比乎? 一個語言能力再佳的人, 欠了思想及工作能力, 可取乎?

要我選, 我會選擇一間有使命感, 校風純樸, 老師真正關心學生感受的中學. 因為學術上的問題, 我們可以找補習老師,亦可以自己教. 學校生活對學生的影響, 反而是在其品格及價值觀上最為明顯, 而這些才是對子女最重要的, 你希望子女成為什麼人, 就讓他入讀怎樣的學校. 我身邊的朋友中, 從香島勞弟出來的多是左派支持人, 基督教學校出的多是社工或教師, 對別人比較有情, 天主教名校出來的會比較圓滑, 人前人後兩個樣...
七年的中學生活, 給我們的豈止是知識呢?

子女就是父母的縮影

cycchor

Rank: 2


	68

219^#

發表於 06-10-13 02:29 |只看該作者

Re: 你們認為子女讀英中好還是中中好？

剛再看留言,
本人對MOTHERSHARE的話十分認同, 特此補充.

子女就是父母的縮影

warrrren

Rank: 3 Rank: 3


	256

220^#

發表於 06-10-13 10:14 |只看該作者

Re: 你們認為子女讀英中好還是中中好？

After posting the short message above, I have received private message from 2 parents and been asked quite a few questions about ISF.  I shall try to answer all the questions in one go.

1. Is the 2 languages approach functioning well?  Why no textbooks?  Is 30% English enough in lower grades?

It is a feature of ISF's teaching that they are not using any standard textbooks.  The subject heads together with the teachers set the curriculum with reference to IBO's guidelines and materials used in other schools, both local and international.  I would say the ISF's programme is very well designed, and more importantly, well delivered.  What amazes most people is the students' proficiency in both English and Putonghua.  In April this year the school sent out 3 teams to take part in the Putonghua script and recording Competition.  Competing against teams from 300 schools from Hong Kong and Macau, the 3 ISF teams took the 1st and 2nd places in the lower primary section, and the 2nd place in the upper primary section (see the result here: http://www.pthevent.ilongman.com/results.htm).  .  What really impressed the judges was the language fluency and creativity demonstrated by the ISF's students.  An ISF parent who was in the parents cheering team told me that one of the judges said to her that the ISF's students were different from kids from other schools – they did enjoy the competition and looked more happy and cheerful.  This, to me, is more important than the results and is something that I will love to hear more.

As for English, my general impression is that the ISF students' English is better than their Chinese.  Do not be misled by the 30% English and 70% Chinese ratio in the lower grades.  It refers to the amount of English/Chinese used in classes.  In real life, many students will prefer English to Chinese.  If you go to the schools and walk around, you will see that the students are speaking English everywhere - in the cafeteria, playground, corridor, waiting area and library.  My girl is one of those who share a strong preference for English (trying to get her read more Chinese books is still a challenge to me).  At ISF, people do not talk about English and Putonghua as media of instruction.  It is more than that.  English and Putonghua are the only two languages the students use at school.  The students live and study in an exclusively English and Putonghua environment.  They are immersed in an English and Putonghua.  This dual-languages immersion approach is probably unique to ISF, and is working extremely well.  I once had doubt, but am now a believer.  In my girl's case, Cantonese a like a third language to her.  She can express herself better in English and Putonghua.  Whenever she picks up a call from her schoolmates, she will automatically switch to either the English or Putonghua channel.  She even speaks Putonghua in her dream.

2. Will there be any further increase in fee?

I have no idea.  On the question of fee, at present some 10 to 15% of the students are on financial aid (paying 60% of regular tuition fee).  My understanding is that the school intends to increase the percentage to 30%.

3. How much is the fee for secondary school?

$105,000 per annum ($10,500 x 10)

4. When will the new campus be ready?

Before the start of the 07/08 school year.

5. Will the school keep the small class size after moving to the new campus?

Class size will remain at 15-18.

6. I am impressed by Shirley Lee.  Will she leave the school after her contract expires?

I do not know when Shirley’s contract will end and cannot tell how long she will remain at ISF.  I am not worried – she loves the school; parents love her, the students love her; the management loves her.

7. Why Ramida Din left the school?

It seems that people are really interested in Ramida Din.  My answer to the question - I do not know and cannot confirm or rebut any rumour.  She is a fine woman.  Leave her alone and let her do her job in the new position.

8. Will the school expel students for misconduct?

I have not heard of any instance of the school expelling a student, and believe that the school will never expel a student for no good reason.

9. Any facilities or special training for students with special needs?

I am not aware of any special arrangement for students with special needs.  I guess all students with special needs will need something quite different.  Parents who are concerned with support for special needs should contact the school direct to find out what kind of support is available.

10. How about conducts of the students?  Do they tend to misbehave?

It depends what do you mean by misbehaving.  I cannot imagine how boring and uninspiring a school can be if there are not any students who every now and then will make themselves a challenge to others.  Anyhow, students' behaviour is not a matter of concern at ISF.

11. High turnover?

Teachers' turnover rate was high in the first two years.  It was very low last year.  Students' turnover rate has always been extremely low.

12. Which schools do the students mostly come from?

The students are from everywhere – transfers from other local and international schools are fairly common.

13. What are the strengths and weaknesses of the school?

No weakness of great significance.  Yes, I am biased.

14. Will your child stay in this school until year 12 or you have other plans?

Have no plan to go elsewhere at present.

15. What aspect does ISF impress you most that you decide to enrol your child in this school?

School's philosophy, language environment, teaching policy, IB curriculum, personal charisma of the School Head and members of the Board, experience of other people with the school, the kids there, their parents, teaching of proper Chinese instead of 邪體 Chinese (or so called simplified Chinese), quality of the teachers, and so forth (not in any particular order).

I am not saying that ISF is perfect and for everyone.  Different people have different preferences.  Something that is important to a person will be entirely irrelevant to others.  In my case, I care about both Chinese and English; I care about learning; I care more about my girl's long-term development than her ability to resolve 100 math questions in 30 minutes; I hate to face teachers who think there is only one way to do things right; I hate to deal with school management that recognises nothing but the students’ academic attainment; I hate to see kids losing interest in learning; I hate schools that see students as trophies winning machines, schools that only care about the so-called top students and neglect the rest.  When it was time my wife and I had to sit down and consider which primary school was most suitable for our girl and us, there was ISF.  We gave it a try.  And, happy ever after.

16. Did Shirley Lee come from CAIS in San Francisco.  My friend in SF said they never heard about the school.

Obviously the gentleman who asked this question had done his research.  Yes, Shirley was from the Chinese American International School in San Francisco, which was the winner of the Goldman Sachs Prize for Excellence in international education in 2004 (http://www.internationaled.org/prizes/2004.winners.htm).  CAIS's website: http://www.cais.org/aboutcais/history.html.

17. What is the financial position of the school?  Any chance that the school will ask parents to make substantial contributions?

The school's fund raising campaign is extremely successful.  With a huge donation given by an education trust, the school has raised $122 million since the beginning of this year.  This far exceeds the original target.

18. Do you think the students can do well in public examination?

The 7 graders are 5 years away from any public exam.  We have to wait and see how well they will do.  I am optimistic.

19. Any open day?

On 25/11.

20. How many applications to grade 1?

I have no idea.  I only know that there will be 5 or 6 classes of grade 1 of 15 students each in 07/08.

That's all.