ESF schools Futher $$$$

tay

wow wow wow...  let's just cool down a bit first shall we?

no system/policy/rules is perfect, and some are bound to think that there are flaws or unfairness.  it is true that some may feel the government should not subsidize an international school that is not regulated by the government, and more importantly with an admission prioritization from public money.  even the local school allocation system has a lot of complaints about being unfair (eg with the points scheme)  but even some elite DSS schools have hidden prioritization (parents connections etc), but unlike ESF, they would interview you anyways to make you feel like you actually have a chance in getting in, whereas for ESF, you won't even get the interview. So I guess that's upsetting a lot of parents out there. In fact, wouldn't everyone be happier if ESF does not make public of the prioritization rules, and interview everyone who applied (though they continue to categorize kids into Cat 1s & 2s but behind closed doors)? But the application fee will probably be bumped to $1000, but that's alright isn't for the sake of fairness?

so anyways I think it's impractical to ask the government to stop subsidizing ESF now because it will affect a lot of people (think about how many students they have!). but it's also silly to ask the school to offer the local curriculum, because it won't be an international school anymore and what happens to the existing students? i just think it'll be a slow and gradual process (which I believe is on-going between ESF and the government) to re-define ESF's position.

and by the way, my children are Cat 2s as they go to a local kindy, but i don't feel so strongly about the admission rules as some of you do.  yet i still apply anyway coz you know, i still buy mark 6 once in a while. you never know when's your lucky day!    and besides giving the $$$ to ESF is better than putting the money to support policies like the national education curriculum.

bobbycheung

FattyDaddy,

Regarding your comment:-
'advantage' requires you to choose not to learn Chinese, and everyone has that choice. There is a difference between not having the choice and having it but not choosing it.

I will try to make my point for the last time.  
Firstly, the "advantage" conferred by Category One is not meant for the local HK Chinese people who have full access to the local system (but who now claim to have "difficulties" in get through the local schools because they choose not to learn any Chinese/Cantonese).
Secondly, let me give you an example to illustrate my point.  There are 2 queues in the bus stop.  The 1st queue is for disabled people who will get priority.  The 2nd queue is for all others.  The rule is that you can join (or at least attempt to join) the 1st queue if you say you are disabled.  Now there are people lying and pretending to be disabled.  There are others who kick themselves so as to sustain injuries and qualified as disabled.  All these people have one aim ie. to get into the 1st queue.  Now according to your reasoning, everyone has a choice saying they are disabled.  You say there is nothing unfair about it because everyone can make that claim.  If you choose not to lie about it, then you can't really complain.  Is this right?  Is this fair?  

bobbycheung

FattyDaddy,

No, I am not upset about any mainland Chinese children studying in ESF.  I said I don't mind about the subsidy going to which ESF students, be they expat, locals, Asian, mainland China kids....  It's OK with me.  I am not affected by this ESF admission policy because my kids have never applied to ESF.  The school they go to receive no subsidy, that's fine too.  I have no complaint.  I said all these only because i believe the admission policy is unfair, silly and outdated.

bobbycheung

FattyDaddy,

//Nope, I'm saying everyone can choose to chop off a leg to join queue 1 if they so choose. You're saying no one would make such a ludicrous choice so they must all be cheaters, understand now?//

Nope,  I am saying a lot of those joining queue 1 are falsely claiming they have chopped off their legs.  Even those who actually chop off their legs will have their legs fixed and running as soon as they get onto the bus.  Understand now?

Shootastar

回復 manstap 的帖子

My kids can apply to DBS, DGS, La Salle or any school I like. If they fail to gain admission, it is their problem. For ESF, it is the problem of the discriminatory admission policy. My kids could not apply because they speak Cantonese and know how to write Chinese characters. This is the point I stressed many times.

WYmom

回復 Shootastar 的帖子

LPC is a DSS school - a fact known for years!!  See the link below.  Everyday there are so many policies blamed by different people to be unfair... unfair to distribute $6000 to some but not all residents, unfair to set asset limit to seniors, unfair to give education allowance to some civil servants, unfair to give subsidies to Mr. A taxpayer but not Mr. B taxpayer...  
http://www.legco.gov.hk/yr99-00/english/panels/ed/papers/e838-01.pdf

Is there anything in the world really fair?  Maybe communism when everyone will share the same is the fairest system!

bobbycheung

回復 manstap 的帖子

I am not jealous.  How could I be?  To be honest, I really can't think of a reason why I should be jealous.  I am saying the ESF Category One admission policy is stupid.  It enables people to jump the queue by lying.  Its requirement of non-Cantonese speaking and/or Chinese reading or writing is unreasonable.  It tries to use this "criteria" to distingush between applicants who can or cannot access the local system.  It doesn't work.  Worse still, it creates a loophole for some to take advantage of.

Shootastar

回復 WYmom 的帖子

Thank you for your prompt reply.

Yes LPC is a DSS school receiving subsidy from Government for the 114 local students. Each year it admits 57 local students. The subsidies only goes to the local students.

As for the foreign students, as far as I know, they are on the full fee basis. The non-local students recieve no government fund. That's why the charity sets up a number of scholarship for them to study in Hong Kong. It is a fact known ever since it is established sometimes in 90+.

It is exactly the point I want to make - ESF should not make use of the government fund to subsidise the non-local kids if its admission policy is designed to discriminate local kids who speak Cantonese and/or know how to write Chinese characters.

If you read my posts, you will know my stand that all ESF local students (meaning Hong Kong permanent residents including Indian, Pakistans, Singaporeans, Japanese, even Europeans) should receive the same subsidy as each local kids in local school has.

Shootastar

回復 manstap 的帖子

"ESF is a school teach in English but NOT teaching english."

My comments: I agree in total.

"Cat 1 is the priority cos they teach in the same way they teach in UK . Native language.

ESF dont accept those who are not native speaking whats the problem?"

My comments: This is exactly the fallacy of the admission policy. My kids speak English as good as native English speakers. However, they could not apply because they also speak mother tongue and know how to write Chinese characters as well.

"They accept and allow any one to apply for those speaking and writing Cantonese as i said but only in Cat 2 less priority."

My comments: This reinforces my view that the ESF adopts a discriminatory admission policy. Cantones speaking students are the second class students even though they could speak native English. Why should someone speak Cantonese and know how to write Chinese characters should be in the 2nd Category while his English is as good as someone who does not speak Cantonese and/or know how to write Chinese characters.

There is no perfect world. I dont think as an adult there are many things around us are already discriminatory.

My comments: I agree that there is no perfect world. But the overt discrimination adopted by ESF should be deprecated.

"Discriminatory is the way to pick. Just like DBS DGS, eveyone could apply but only those who pass the interview can receive the tick of enty. Same here in ESF, even u have sblings, u have the chance of interview, if u failed u failed. Even the introduction of $500K NR, they only hve priority of interview not a direct entrance. If they failed during the interview the money will be refundedand no place for the kids."

My comments: We are talking ESF's Category one policy (which I say is discriminatory) but you switch to other policy. In any event, my kids can apply to DBS, DGS etc and still have the chance as others. However, my kids could not apply to ESF because they speak Cantonese and know how to write Chinese characters.

bobbycheung

FattyDaddy,

I see, that's what you are getting at.  I said no one because "cheaters" are those:-
(1) whose kids know Chinese/Cantonese but who, for the sole purpose of getting into Category One, would lie and pretend they do not know.
(2) who think that Chinese is important but they want to hold it off for the sole purpose of getting into Category One.  As soon as they manage to get into ESF, they will teach their kids Chinese/Cantonese intensively.
I said there's no one because those who choose not to learn Chinese/Cantonese in their entire lives did not abstrain from learning for the sole purpose of getting into Category One.  They are not "cheaters" by definition.  So you won't find "cheaters" who never learn Chinese in their entire lives.  
Anyway, you may think it's 捉字蝨.  But when I said no one, it's also meant to be a joke or something to just to annoy you (just as you did to me).  
Having said all these, I am still of the opinion that Category One is not meant for the HK local kids who for whatever reason choose not to learn Chinese temporarily or for the rest of their lives.

PoohsBaby

Heated discussion on ESF subvention and "discrimatory"  application process .  The fact is HK is now part of Mainland and we should review these legacy policies.
ESF must open up their books and follow the DSS Scheme if they want to get subvention
from Govt.  Why are they using taxpayers money to provide education to non-locals?
They should really get rid of this discrimatory Cat 1 and Cat 2 labelling if they want Govt. money.

There are plenty of International schools for non-locals and no one stops them from applying to
DSS or Private schools.

Shootastar

回復 PoohsBaby 的帖子

It is an enjoyable experience to have heated debate with delicated parents like FattyDaddy, WYMom, Manstap, Bobbycheung and others. The more debates we have, the more we learn from others. Remember, please do not have any hard feelings towards others even if your view is shared by others. That's the fact of life.

Maoku

Two issues should be clearly defined.

1. The positive discrimination policy of giving priority to those cannot speak Cantonese for getting entry to local school is to protect the minority to have fair chance of receiving education that fits their language needs.  For a civilized and developed city, we should have this policy upheld.  I think public funds can be used on this not just for the sake of attracting foreign talents but also from equity angle.  

2. The issue then comes to how ESF screens the applicant who really deserve the Cat 1 priority, ie to establish a mechanism of identifying those who could not have the chance of going to mainstream school as the policy described.  To be more exact, it is to detect those who should have otherwise being able to study in mainstream local schools be false classified as Cat 1. So, this is more an enforcement issue indeed which EDB need to step in to avoid abuse.   

In fact, ESF runs 2 private independent schools that receive no recurrent subsidy that offers the choices to local parents who wish to have their kids to study in environment very similar to IS.   My girl studies in one of them.  If possible, on par with students who study in mainstream school, govt should consider voucher system indeed.

Just humble views as food for thought.

Shootastar

回復 Maoku 的帖子

"1. The positive discrimination policy of giving priority to those cannot speak Cantonese for getting entry to local school is to protect the minority to have fair chance of receiving education that fits their language needs.  For a civilized and developed city, we should have this policy upheld.  I think public funds can be used on this not just for the sake of attracting foreign talents but also from equity angle. "

My comments: I have always advocated that local ethnic minority should receive the same subsidy as the local kids so long as they are HOng Kong permanent residents. There is no doubt about that. The government has also set up a number of government schools to cater the needs of the ethnic minority i.e. Kadorie Government School, Hotung Government School etc. If they want to learn Chinese, they can join local education system. Our education system is fair to the ethnic minority. What is unfair is the discriminatory admission policy of ESF not to give equal priority of those who speak Cantonese and/or know how to write Chinese characters.

"2. The issue then comes to how ESF screens the applicant who really deserve the Cat 1 priority, ie to establish a mechanism of identifying those who could not have the chance of going to mainstream school as the policy described.  To be more exact, it is to detect those who should have otherwise being able to study in mainstream local schools be false classified as Cat 1. So, this is more an enforcement issue indeed which EDB need to step in to avoid abuse.  "

My comments: I think you miss the point. Its policy is used to give favoritism to those non-local kids on the public funds. I congratulate each and every one who is admitted to ESF because the schools provide a first class education to the kids.There is no doubt about that if we check its average IB score or college placements each year, no matter they choose not to learn Chinese or pretend that they do not know.

In fact, ESF runs 2 private independent schools that receive no recurrent subsidy that offers the choices to local parents who wish to have their kids to study in environment very similar to IS.   My girl studies in one of them.  If possible, on par with students who study in mainstream school, govt should consider voucher system indeed.

My comments: I totally agree with you that the Government should use the voucher system so that your girl is also benefitted from the public fund, which she should be entitled because she is a local kid and you are a taxpayer.

Shootastar

回復 cowmoon 的帖子

Thank you for your cogent analysis.

Shootastar

回復 bobbycheung 的帖子

"I can't really call myself a dedicated parent as I am really just a nosy (and noisy) outsider when it comes to ESF.  I think the points raised by cowmoon are far more important than mine."

Bobbycheung,

I am also an outsider too. My kids studied in an IS which explicitly said that local students are in the lowest priority as far as admission is concerned. I fully understand why it is so because they set up the schools to cater the needs of their citizens. Only if they have vacancy, will they admit local students. They receive no government funds. This is fair and reasonable.

HKTHK

Maoku>  Well said. HK needs to be able to provide education to ethnic minorities and expats who chose to stay and work in HK.  Otherwise, HK is not competitive as a city. These schools should receive subsidies and for me personally, I don't care whether it is above or below the level of local schools.  This is no different than governments providing tax breaks to companies to relocate their headquarters or factories.

The problem as you point out is the way to define who should qualify for these "benefits". There is no perfect way but those who do not speak Cantonese at home seems like a decent solution.  For those who want to educate their kids in English but not Chinese, that is their personal choice.  And if it is for the sole reason to get into ESF schools, so be it.  That is NOT cheating.  If people speaks Cantonese at home and fraudulently fills in the application otherwise, that is cheating. But I don't see how choosing to not educate your kids in Chinese is cheating.  Clearly not in the spirit of things but no different than any tax avoidance strategy used by people and company on a daily basis.  

Shootastar

回復 HKTHK 的帖子

HKYHK

I want to educate my children in English and want to place them in ESF, but I could not do so because they speak Cantonese at home and know how to write Chinese characters.

The problem of ESF is its outdated, colonial admission policy.