Why is Chinese so important when chosing IS?

kingkongdaddy

My 2 girls are attending IS and their proficiency in reading & writing Chinese is rather poor. Certainly, it is kind of pay off for throwing them into an English learning environment. Nevertheless, I use to think that they should at least grasp the basic Chinese vocab so that they could meet with the basic needs in their social life.

Whereas I still trust that English is indeed 'superior' to Chinese in various arena. Like for instance in the MBA course, many of those management & marketing theories are written by English speaking professors. I could hardly imagine that these knowledge is as well covered in Chinese textbook!

If you ask me which language is more important in HK, I would definitely choose English instead of Chinese since HK is the window of Mainland China whereby the outside world is bridged together. I have the experience of working in a western and a Chinese company. I'm regret to tell that for the sake of internationalise & professionalise (at least in image) the mechanics of our system, both companies seek to uphold the use of English for most  business communications.

All in all, if you are picking an IS for your children, I think that the priority towards Chinese should not be over emphasize 'cause you will never expect "good chinese food in a western restuarant"!

Vrindavan

>> Chinese should not be over emphasize 'cause you will never expect "good chinese food in a western restuarant"!


Exactly the point, if you value Chinese food, you should definitely consider Independent Private schools for your kid instead of IS.

TWEETYPIE

regardless of your views of the standard of Chinese education available in HK, I personally consider that it is a complete cop-out to just let our kids study English and forget about Chinese when we are Chinese people. It's like my Western friend saying he hates congee but has never tried it! Children nowadays already have things a lot easier than the generations before them...as a parent, I hope to be able to teach my children how they should tackle problems and challenges rather than protect them from them. Yes, Chinese is a very difficult language to master but until our children have given it their best shot, how will we ever know whether or not they can do it. I sense that most if not all the ISs are realising the importance of Chinese (be it Cantonese or Mandarin) but at the moment, I think the standard provided is really nowhere near the standard we would like.  However, can anyone tell me where our kids can just go to an ordinary school that does not charge astronomical fees, learn good English and Chinese, be happy and be able to learn the things they want to learn.  A big sigh...the education system in HK is so flawed!

TWEETYPIE

to avoid confusion, Tweetypie is also Marshmellow

warrrren

Dear Newton,

Try talk to any person on the street of Hong Kong, most of them have been taking classes on both languages for pretty much of their youth, and ask truthfully yourself how many of them can be considered to be proficient in both languages as you pictured?

Is this a problem with English/Chinese being so difficult that those two languages cannot be had at the same time?  I do recognise the problem with the English standard of the men in the street.  The problem is due to, I think, the way people teach, learn and see English.  Seeing English as something that is so difficult to learn that one must give up his mother tongue to be able to learn it is in my respectful opinion pathetic.  A high degree of proficiency in both English and Chinese is no big deal – all those who believe they can get it and go for it will have it eventually.

Regards,
warrrren

warrrren

Hi Leehoma001,

However, I have to say that we are just wasting our time to discuss with those who don't respect their own race.

I agree with everything you said, except that I do not think it is right that those who take a different view on this matter be labelled as people who have no repsect for their own race.

Have a nice weekend,
warrrren

WYmom

TWEETYPIE 寫道:
However, can anyone tell me where our kids can just go to an ordinary school that does not charge astronomical fees, learn good English and Chinese, be happy and be able to learn the things they want to learn.  A big sigh...the education system in HK is so flawed!

TWEETYPIE,

You are asking for an ideal school, do you think that some new DSS or private local schools can meet your requirements? (I can only think of PLK CKY to be better for the time being)

TWEETYPIE

apologies WYmom but can you just confirm what  PLK CKY stands for? Generally I think the new DSS schools are a great idea and I hope they do achieve what they set out to do. However, it is still early days .....

WYmom

TWEETYPIE,

PLK CKY = 保良局蔡繼有學校
Po Leung Kuk Choi Kai Yau School

It also only has a few years history (primary opened since 2002), start to have secondary school this year, so not able to see public exam results yet.  So far most comments are positive and many many people apply...

catnips

"Whatever your opinion is, you are also making a decision for them. In future, your kids are going to reap what you sow today."

Very well said.  

JJsMama

Newton 寫道:
JJsMaMa,

1) No matter how much you say you respect your nation, you are the handful of people in HK to abandon (although not totally) Chinese language as first language to learn if given choice! Do you realise that?

2) What is the your point on those CV thing? I simply said many jobs do not require Chinese writing and reading. Whether you want to include Chinese in your CV is irrelevant, isn't it? But frankly, I never included *Chinese writing* and *Chinese reading* in my CV.

3) I didn't say "not knowing Chinese entirely", did I? We can argue to the end of the world but English is an official language in HK and it does not take too much efforts to infer that mastering good English writing and reading skills and at the same time can communicate in Chinese conversationally have satisfied most job requirements. How many firms do use Chinese to exchange E-mail. You tell me?

4) Can a school full of Asians provides a balance view of the world to your kids? I think your main reason is to get away from the unnecessary competition in local school. SIS is even more tougher than many local school, I am utterly confused?

5) I mentioned *professionals* was to tell you that you should not blindly follow professionals and bring them up to support your argument. I never meant that 100% of professionals do not care their children, as implied by your sentence!

6) I never said I oppose learning Chinese, did I? I will support them if they like it. But I will not make it mandatory and do not make fuss about not knowing it. By choosing IS program, Chinese is like any other languages are deemed to be secondary. By being able to speak 2nd language fluently is already quite enough.

1)   On what basis do you pass this unsubstantiated judgment?   Isn’t it apparent that by “choosing” and valuing dual-language learning for our next generation already speaks for itself??   I have high regards for English as an international language.  Saying that it doesn’t mean I have to abandon our mother tongue which is the fabric of ours lives and heritage.

2)  To spell out my point, it is to illustrate to those who so boldly denounce Chinese as a superfluous language in the business world do leverage it as an asset when they job hunt.     If people so confidently preach what they believe, they wouldn’t have even bothered to include it for its supposedly nominal value.  

The point is, you wouldn’t want to limit opportunities for yourself, so why for your children?

3)  Forget the top paying jobs.  Let’s not even assume kids can fly before they can walk.  Just open the Classified Post and see for yourself how many put proficiency in written and spoken English & Chinese (and Mandarin) as pre-requisites.    Is it so difficult to accept the fact that even if Chinese is not used in actuality, it is sought by employers in reality?

4)  If the definition of an international education is purely about getting proficient in English (and perhaps another foreign language) and to hang out amongst mainly non-Asian faces, then of course a predominant Asian community is off balance.

For me, the spirit of an international education is to teach children to empathize with people of different race, colour, language, culture, religion; and to have a broader view of the world than the things that is immediately around them.   It is without question ideal to have the entire United Nation within one roof.   However, with the proper curriculum and the right guidance, even with a handful of nationalities, I believe are able convey the spirit of internationalism.    I have already said earlier that we have to be realistic and make compromise.  The international mix and the degree of Chinese programme is inversely proportionate -  eg. CIS,SIS (dual language programme, more Chinese people), ESF (gentle programme, more balance international mix), FIS (negligible programme, relatively fewer Asians).   

Btw, I am not here to discuss SIS, and frankly I am not in the position to do so.  Personally, I value competition because it is a force that drives us forward.  How a person handles pressure and competition is all in the attitude.    So Newton your assumption on me is wrong again.   Not to sound arrogant, but competitions in local school has never been a concern to me.  If the majority of the children in HK can do it, my kid who is confident, articulate and has a very clear sharp mind will surely do fine.   I choose IS because I feel international schools can offer a more balanced curriculum and is in a better position to bring out the better in him.  I like to see him enjoy school life and love learning.  I personally don’t agree with the excessive grilling that some of the top (or even average) schools put upon children, which in my opinion defeats the meaning of education and spoils the interest in learning.   Also, I am not confident that the quality of teachers is consistent.  That’s the reasons.   

5)  What makes you think I (or any parents who value Chinese language) “blindly” follow anyone?

Isn’t that obvious that there are schools full of parents (“professionals” or otherwise) who have opted bi-lingual programme.   Do you honestly think the majority is just sheep following the herd?  That they don’t for a moment weigh out the pros and cons of different curricula, school culture, teaching approach, and how education impacts the future of their kids?

6)  You obviously oppose to people who ‘decide’ for their children that Chinese is a language they should learn in IS.      

Anyway, all the arguments have been succinctly stated by the BK participants so I won’t bother to repeat.   For better or worse reasons, we parents only have the best of intentions for our children.   I don’t see how my child can be truly deemed competent and confident if he doesn’t even have a fundamental mastery of his own mother tongue.  A Hong Kong Chinese who can’t even read a Chinese newspaper is a joke to me.

Newton

JJsMama

1) The intention to search for IS for your kid has already shown that you have already been ready to abandon the best opportunity to learn Chinese for some other things. Would you agree? Choosing a bilingual school is really an accident as HK does not really have many truly bilingual IS.

2) When I worked in the UK, I also included "Chinese" in my CV under the category of language! I just don't understand why you are so fuss about including a single word "Chinese" in CV. It is just being honest to put it down. I also put down tennis and swimming in my CV. Am I trying to get a job out of them.

3) Why forget about the top paying job? Can you tell me?

4) Again....what if SIS turns its face away from your kid. Will you go back to local or put him to another IS  which does not have a stint of Chinese education.

5) I think you blindly follow because you say so! You use it to support your argument by just saying that they should be right! BTW, majority of the professionals in HK put their kids to local schools, not IS. Therefore even *full of* is not quite accurate.

6) I am cool for parents choosing Chinese as first language. I oppose to parents who stuff their kids what they themselves think must be right. Time is limited, not too many kids can handle mathematics, history, literature, computer, physics, chemistry, biology, economics, sports and loads of extra-curricular activities at the same.

In retrospect, I should not put my finger on you as you are the one who understands your kids most. Maybe your kid is really smart and can learn mandarin and simplified Chinese characters extremely efficient even in a place country where 90% of the population speak Cantonese and at the same time cope with the currculum that is controversially even tougher than local curriculum. What I have said is really targetted to those parents who have already realized kids do have limitation on both learning and time.

Finally, language is not the major reason to get a job. It is the professional knowledge and personality that matters. If you do not have good written Chinese, you  are surely fine if your person is ok. Don't make it sound like missing Chinese will doom to be in disadvantage. The tremendous time kids spent on Chinese learning will surely sacrifice the time that they spent on something else!

  

JJsMama

Newton

I find it quite amusing that you have to resort to derogatory speculation just to make yourself feel you win the argument.  If you like to do it that way, be my guest, take the floor, have the last words.   It is no longer a constructive debate.  It is totally meaningless for me to even waste another ounce of my time to entertain your pathetic remarks.

You obviously had a very miserable 15 years of HK education to take such a radical view on Chinese and people's ability in general.   I of course would never be able to relate to you as I've managed to do 3 languages including all the regular subjects, plus swimming and atheletics training, piano and community work, AND still stay optimistic with the Chinese language.  But, of course, you will argue I am not representative of the general population.

Newton

Dear JJsMama,

You surely do not have to throw your resume to me. Whether you are academically more able is not quite relevant. The only thing matter is whether your kid likes to have the same mode of education as you.

I congratuate you that you can master all the academic subjects and excel on each of them and really hope that your kid will enjoy the life that you have planned in advance for her. For me, I rather put much less training  and unnecessary pressure on my kid but simply talk and play with him much more. At the end of the day, whether my kid is clever, smart, like music and well-rounded is really my secondary concerns. The most important thing is he has a good heart and will not lose interest on learning things in very early age.

This is my insight from after 15 years of your so-called miserable years of HK education.

catnips

在這個討論應否學中文的題目上，請容許我用中文加入討論 (對不起，我假設這裏每一位都看得懂中文可以嗎？)

這是一個有趣的課題。為了避免捲入國家民族文化的爭拗，我建議客觀地，單純地把中文定位為一種語言，而我們就來討論一下，在香港這個以中文為書面語，廣東話或普通話為口語的語言環境下，唸國際學校的孩子學習「聽、講、讀、寫」中文是好還是不好。

我們都知道，語言能力是人賴以生存的本能。掌握語言，我們可以對文字/ 知識加以理解、分析，進而表達，評論，吸收更高層次的知識。而在開發語言/ 文字能力的過程中，我們的腦袋因著各種各樣的刺激，而又啟動出不同的發展。無論我們的母語是甚麼，學習多種語言對我們都是好的，這不光是說掌握語言本身，而是指在過程中我們的腦力會得到更大程度的開發，幫助我們吸收別的知識。

不少早期教育學家都曾作過研究，小孩天生就有學習語言的本能，只要有適當的語言環境，他們可同時輕鬆地掌握十幾種語言。這種學習能力從零至 六歲期間最強，以後慢慢遞減，大概到二十五歲前腦部的開發就差不多停了。這就是為什麼孩子學語言容易，成年以後要學外語就要付出兩倍、三倍甚至更多的努力了。所以我主張小朋友趁早多學不同語言，目的不光是學外語，而是要增加腦部發展機會，從而加強小朋友日後對各種知識的學習能力。

話說回來，在香港唸國際學校的學生應否學習中文？我想這跟應否學法文、西班牙文一樣？為什麼家長會覺得在國際學校學中文是難為了孩子，而學法文或西班牙文就可以呢？家長們不是說以前的國際學校容許學生學第二語言如法文？只不過現在換成是中文罷了。為什麼以前國際學校的孩子可以學法文、西班牙文，現在的不可以學中文？

就語言環境來說，我想在香港學中文應該比西班牙文容易吧，起碼平常可以接觸，運用得到；打開電視，也可以選看普通話的節目，還有字幕呢！所以我想，孩子要學看中文，應該不難，寫方面，中文雖不是拼音文字，但也有部首，聲旁一類的途徑幫助記憶，也算是有系統的。

我不是想在這兒討論語言習得的問題或原理，我想，以新一代小朋友的智力，要多學幾種語言應該不難，問題是我們為他們設了甚麼發展的規限沒有。如果他們還沒開始學，父母就告訴他們中文很難，他們就會相信，而不會再有信心或興趣去學。

況且，大部分的知識都由文字記載，即使在互聯網也不例外，音像資訊的載體也是語言。我覺得如果要認識一國的文化，沒有哪一種語言可以完全取代該國的母語。鹿鼎記(原想說紅樓夢，怕家長們覺得太深奧)雖然可以翻譯成英文，但終究還是看原文更生動，對嗎？或者換一個例子，如果你們或孩子看得懂達文西密碼或是哈利波特的原文，你們也不會選擇看譯文吧？所以讓孩子學中文，起碼他們可以選擇看那些看得懂的原文作品，直接領略、吸收其中的樂趣、文化、信息以及知識，對嗎？所以，將來孩子是否可以多一個選擇或途徑吸收知識，就看我們今天的選擇了。(當然，我們可以為他們選擇學法文，這也無可厚非，不過，他們在香港練習運用的機會便比較少而已)。

至於孩子能學到哪個層次、程度，就看他自己了。

Newton

Let me share what I think about your article.

All the language learning theory sounds very familiar and have been heard many times indeed. Here are some of my humble opinion.

It sounds learning multiple languages have all the positive things. However, learning language in itself is actually quite a boring task for most of the kids. It is actually the contents conveyed by the language do all the magic. Which language (be it Chinese or English) to learn is actually quite irrelevant as long as corresponding contents are widely available. Of course you can see Chinese materials all the time in Hong Kong but in IS environment, Chinese characters is actually a scarce species.

Many books about learning language only emphasizes on early rather than multilingual language learning. In fact, quite some authors do oppose learning different languages at the same time as it will confuse the kid. It is especially true when you are unable to provide suitable learning environment (such as kid in IS schools where most teaching activities are conducted in English). The possible exception is that the parents are bilingual (meaning one is native on one language and another is native on another) and have tremendous time to mentor their kids in the language that is deficient in school life (but in HK, it is almost impossible).

Yours statement that kid of current generation should not be difficult to learn several more languages may be a bit too exaggerating. May I ask what the reasons behind it? All along I thought kid of this generation is a lot more easy to be distracted and in terms of IQ, they should not be of any different from last generation. How come all the sudden they can learn several languages without any problem?

Language does not like math, history, music, sports and computer. It is inherently boring to learn in the early stage and few kids are willing to learn it with interest. Some people may find creative writing and poetry fun but few parents want their kid to excel Chinese to this level! Their goal is basically force (it is force indeed! I never met any students who are willingly pick up a pencil and complete the whole copy book with smile) their kid to get through the most boring stage of language learning but go no further!

To tell you what I think; why all the sudden parents nowaday want their kids to take Chinese in IS. I have never heard of it 10 years ago, did you? Why parents suddenly so much interest on Chinese culture compared with the old days? The truth is most parents who go IS do not quite care about Chinese culture. Most of them scare about their kids being less competitive than the others once China become a powerful nation. I could not say their action is bad for kids but at the end of the day, before their kids can reap from such rather hypothetical and yet uncertain benefit, they have to endue something that the old IS boys and girls do not have to endue.   

Newton

stccmc.

Point is taken. Of course, everything cannot be certain but my kid has already spoken quite fluent Chinese and I think that is already quite enough. Although I cannot be certain whether Chinese writing and reading but I can be certain that he has developed quite some interest on other stuffs. Therefore why not let him put all his time and efforts to learn by himself what he is interested!

My philiosophy of learning may be quite difficult to comprehend by many parents in Hong Kong; I believe that learning can only be effective when kid has developed interests. I will not force him to learn anything since I believe that no good knowledge can be forced out. Ironically, the only exception is language learning where early ability to read is my major concerns since reading can lead to a whole different world. Therefore I put all my creative efforts to teach him read at the moment (I don't even care whether he can write). However, as you might already know....I pick English rather than Chinese since mastering reading in one language is already quite a job for both me and my kid.

yyyy

想了很久, 應否在這兒加把嘴???不過既然大家在國際學校欄裡分享自己的意見, 應該都是比較國際化,比較容易接納不同的意見的.

我個人覺得語言是用來溝通和學習新知識的.

由於自己是香港人,所以將小朋友放在一間比較注重國語/中文的國際學校讀書,我覺得佢識國語真是有很多好處:

1. 溶入社會

佢完全享受自己是香港人,因為沒有語言的障礙,行街吃飯搭車沒有問題,又可以和香港的朋友仔溶洽相處; 當然與外國小朋友亦一樣ok.

2. 方便旅行

旅遊都是吸收知識的一個方法. 當我見到自己的小朋友無論去到北京,台灣沒有溝通問題,去到美加,英國也沒有問題;佢的學校也由一年班開始有法文學,我希望將來帶佢去歐洲旅行時佢可以成為我們的嚮導!而且基於沒有語言障礙, 佢可以更投入,亦明白導遊小姐的講解, 知識便來了..

3. 吸收知識

英文有很多好書, 小朋友從中實在吸收了大量知識;但無可否認, 有些知識中文書是比較豐富的, 例如中國傳統的民間故事,中國歷史,成語故事等;我自己小朋友現在手上看2本書, 英文是Narnia (2) 及中文: 100個使孩子聰明的故事, 當中包括中國歷史人物包公, 紀曉南等,從這些人身上, 相信佢也可以吸收一點兒中國的民間智慧!但印象最深刻是她看過幾本300-400頁的中文偵探小說, 每頁是25-26行...

辛苦嗎?

可能自己是香港人,總覺得相對以前自己讀書的時代, 佢實在是舒服極了. 無疑, 差不多每天她也要做中文功課, 寫生字,造句, 作文(200-300字),worksheet呀!不過有時想, 不做做這些, 日子都一樣的溜走...再加上佢係香港生活, 實在有很多機會接觸中文, 有利於她掌握這種語言, 見佢就不是學得很辛苦!

如果我們在日本生活, 我相信我們都會學日文的....