取消中小學考試名次制度

Bluegene

shadeslayer 發表於 22-10-27 14:15
本帖最後由 shadeslayer 於 22-10-27 14:23 編輯

It is not about left or right, it is about what is ...

I think you adopted a restricted political meaning of left and right wings. What I refer to be left wing are liberals who are more open, not like to follow rules, more compassion to the underprivileged. People on right wing are conservatives who are less open, entitlement and have a strong sense of duty and responsibility.
The common issues like tax, welfare and who get what in our society and who are “us” and “them”? People with different political attitudes/ tendencies have different views. It’s not factual judgement vs value judgment.   Conflict arises when people values things differently. Political polarisation is not new but it ihas been amplified in recent years.

Oppression, discrimination, social justice are just issues on the fighting grounds.

shadeslayer

beastiebistro 發表於 22-10-27 17:44
To me it is not Education in itself that provides the turn around, it is the person. If the person i ...

I enjoy few things more than open and honest debates or discussions without resorting to name calling. That widens my understanding of how other people think and learn a few things in most cases.

Topics like these can fuel at least a few PhD in philosophy, political science or anthropology.I wouldn’t dream of having consensus especially from people with kind of opposite ideologies.

In fact I don’t disagree with most of what you said above.I also value hard work, determination, perseverance and grit. I admire those who have them and be successful in what they do.

Only difference, I figure, is that I realise this represents only a very small percentage of population.These people can be successful against all odds. Nothing can stop them: not poor parents, not poor schools, nor poor teachers.However, we are talking about communities.What about the rest of the community, the “normal” people.For a community who endures systemic racism for hundreds of years and many of them living under poverty line today.Early childhood education disadvantage leads to primary school disadvantage etc and the effect trickles down.

Under this backdrop, you ask them to work harder if they want to get into a good university?How does it sound?Cold, I think.

On the other hand we can’t deviate too much from a merit based selection, otherwise the whole society doesn’t work well.How do we draw the line? I haven’t the faintest idea.

shadeslayer

Bluegene 發表於 22-10-27 18:57
I think you adopted a restricted political meaning of left and right wings. What I refer to be left  ...

I would like to think we can talk about and hopefully resolve social issues without invoking political affiliation.  I hate to start a discussion with a “colour”, as the colour typically overshadows the contents of discussion and points being put forward.

ANChan59

shadeslayer 發表於 22-10-27 19:29
I would like to think we can talk about and hopefully resolve social issues without invoking politi ...

Totally agree.

Colour makes them blind and airhead.

Bluegene

shadeslayer 發表於 22-10-27 19:29
I would like to think we can talk about and hopefully resolve social issues without invoking politi ...

Yes but I don’t think we can resolve social issues because they are just too complicated.

Meaningful discussion depends on one’s ability to abandon strong sense of ideological belief.

beastiebistro

shadeslayer 發表於 22-10-27 19:25
I enjoy few things more than open and honest debates or discussions without resorting to name calli ...

That's very true. A healthy discussion with substance is indeed most enjoyable. And I'm sure we agree on quite a number of things, just maybe not the macro ideological direction.

Am I (or at least my views) a little cold and cynical? maybe a tad (and I don't mind admitting). But I think the crux of the matter to me is that in reality, not everybody is built to lead (or be in positions to manage for lack of a better description). In fact, the vast majority of the masses are NOT leadership material. Then why should they be given the responsibility to lead? Why can't they be happy to drive a bus? or be a chimney sweeper? or a graffiti artist? Why must we artificially adjust the system so that EVERYONE can go to a university when most might not necessarily benefit from it?

To me the real social unjust is in society looking down on jobs like a hotel bell boy, or a furniture craftsman, or maybe a fishmonger. If these jobs were held in the same esteem as a heart surgeon or a corporate lawyer, then there would be no need to give anybody a leg up for anything. Because they would be just as happy going to work at a cannery as they would at Morgan Stanley.
Would it still be seen as perpetuating an unjust?


As I've said before (although maybe not this thread, I forget), I believe ability is innate. Some people are born with more innate ability than others. Not all human beings are created equal. Some have the ability to perform liver transplants, I say let them be doctors. Some are better at driving heavy vehicles, I say let them drive a bus. Not everybody is made to be a cabinet minister or an astronaut, why twist the system so that they "seem" to have a chance when they are not even built for it?

A meritocracy in my mind does not necessarily only apply to perceived "top" jobs. It should be applied across all aspects. Someone with the ability to become a barrister may not have the ability to drive a container truck, so he shouldn't be allowed to. A F35 fighter pilot may not have the ability to fix water leaks, so he shouldn't be allowed to become a plumber. Why should the job of a barrister or a fighter pilot be seen as more prestigious than a truck driver or a plumber? These jobs require skills too.

Anyway, I ramble. I think you get the gist of what I'm trying to say (whether you agree or not).   

ABC-DAD

我呢，開左罐Po Sweat 睇你地討論，好耐無咁舒服過。

好享受。

shadeslayer

beastiebistro 發表於 22-10-27 20:20
That's very true. A healthy discussion with substance is indeed most enjoyable. And I'm sure we agre ...

Haha, again what you said is not wrong but it is not addressing the same problem I have had in mind.
The following is what I believe:

1. Most people have an IQ around 100.  Meaning most people, or a large section of the population, have similar innate abilities; for example, they all can benefit from university education

2. If that is the case, why do some go on to become lawyers, doctors, bankers and scientists while others become truck drivers, manual labour or mafia hitters.  I believe less about the difference in innate ability, I lean towards more on the upbringing including family and formal education.  Case in point, I have been close to two children of similar age and broadly similar “abilities”.  Their achievements have been wildly different.  I put it down to the upbringing. I can‘t be 100% sure but if someone ask me what is responsible for the difference, I would say the upbringing.

3. Put it in another way, many people aren’t born to become a truck driver, cleaner or mafia fitters, they are just people who didn‘t make the best out of their potential, say 10 out of 100.  Doctors, lawyers, bankers, scientists are those who fulfil 95 out of 100.

4. I don’t believe the Black or Latino communities have less inborn ability as the poverty rate would suggest.  Or there are inherently more bus driver materials in the Black community than the White or Asian community.   I believe that was because of issues surrounding family and education which are remnants of the previous and current systemic racism.  

That is why I support things like Affirmative Action in principle. But how to draw the line is another issue.

shadeslayer

回覆 beastiebistro 的帖子

Many many years back at work, lunch time there was one colleague and I would sometimes choose an arbitrary topic with an arbitrary position and debate away.

beastiebistro

shadeslayer 發表於 22-10-28 00:00
Haha, again what you said is not wrong but it is not addressing the same problem I have had in mind. ...

That's fundamentally where we disagree. I don't believe that just because the "average" IQ of the main section of the population is 100 that it means people are born with similar innate abilities. In fact, IQ only represents a very narrow view of a person's abilities.

I certainly agree that application is very much a deciding factor. Someone might be born with a 50 in terms of innate ability but make use of 90% of it, which gives him a 45. Whereas someone might be born with a 100 and only use 20% of it which only gives him a 20. The person born with less innate ability in this case would end up being more successful. The person with a 50, however, I believe, will NEVER be a doctor or lawyer or scientist, no matter how hard he were to try. But he can be a very successful, say, truck driver. AND I see absolutely NO shame at all in that. Why must someone become a doctor to be respected? Can a black cook or a Mexican airline stewardess not be as respected?
I don't think that black or latino  or women as a community are born with less innate ability. In fact, that's exactly my point. I think MOST people are not born with the same innate ability, not JUST these groups. There are individuals within these groups that ARE born with more innate ability and they should be given the opportunity to train for the necessary positions. But they shouldn't be given this opportunity ahead of white, asian, male JUST because they are coloured, or female.

I have said before that I disagree with the notion of the Growth Mindset which basically champions the fact that one has the innate ability and potential to achieve anything they wanted. I don't believe that at all. I believe that at the most, Growth Mindset is only a tool that might help an individual achieve as much as their innate ability allows. NOT grow it as the name certainly suggests. If a person has a 50, he has a 50. He will not magically achieve an 80 or 90 because of some hocus pocus Growth Mindset exercise.

I support equal opportunities for everyone. If they have the ability, let them show it and EARN their position regardless of background. BUT don't skew the test in favour of anyone. No matter how wronged their ancestors might have been. I don't support equal outcome. If no black or latino (or white or male for that matter) make it to a Harvard classroom or the Morgan Stanley trading floor or the field's medal because they weren't good enough, I say so be it.

I might make a good fascist actually

shadeslayer

beastiebistro 發表於 22-10-28 00:43
That's fundamentally where we disagree. I don't believe that just because the "average" IQ of the m ...

IQ is just one manifestation of innate abilities of a person I randomly picked. You can use any combination of metrics you like.  My point being I believe a lot of  people are born with similar innate abilities.  

It is easier to take IQ as it relates to more people with more data.  For example, one standard deviation 68% of people are within IQ 85 to 115. I would say 85 is still good enough to be a doctor or a lawyer if given proper education and training, albeit not excellent doctors or lawyers.  This may be arguable.  But a 85 would certainly benefit from university education and make a fine leader in some capacity.

Google tells me there are 19.5% black people living under poverty line in the US compared to 8% for their white or Asian counterparts.  Are you saying there are more blacks born to be washing cars therefore 19.5% vs 8% is justified.  

You mentioned a couple of times the notion of bus drivers and doctors should be given the same respect, or something to this effect.  People should feel good about their job, be it a doctor or a truck driver.  I think it is a red herring.  The sentences taken out of context are right of course.  But they are also not very useful without the context.  

I give you an extreme example.  If a slave owner travels from the past and hear what you said just now, absolutely agree with you, then apply it to his slaves, it would be like:

Slaves, hear me out.  I traveled through time and hear wise words from a wise man.  Slavery is honourable and slaves are a respectable occupation.  The same goes for me as a plantation owner.  You are just born to be slaves and I am born to be a plantation owner.  Only few people have what it takes to be a plantation owner, I happen to be one and you are not.  We both should feel good about that.    It is the biggest social injustice if people think otherwise.  

beastiebistro

shadeslayer 發表於 22-10-28 09:41
Slavery is honourable and slaves are a respectable occupation.

Sorry, can't agree with that example at all. Slavery is not an occupation by any definition. Driving a bus is, though. There is no choice in one and absolutely in the other.
As I said, I don't believe people are born the same. I don't believe everybody (or most) are made out to be a doctor or a lawyer, despite how desperate we may want them to be. They can be a leader in their own arena, a very respectable and experienced bus driver for example. And if they really want to be a doctor, and believe they have the ability, then they should work very hard, submit their application and relevant proof AND be judged on the same basis as every other candidate under the same rules. Race, gender, upbringing, all irrelevant.

I don't think my point about occupation is a red herring at all (although I use a particular occupation as an example, not necessarily meaning someone is born a burger flipper per se). In fact, given the context, it is the most relevant point! I think if people were as content working as a mailman as an FX trader, there would be NO social injustice. Then people would stop complaining about being stuck in dead end job. I think your reasoning is only skewed by monetary reward associated with the jobs. If a doctor were paid roughly the same amount as a butcher, there wouldn't be no perceived inequality. End of dispute.

If only life were that easy.

I'm sorry I just don't believe in handing out free passes to anyone however deprived their ancestors may have been. Prove themselves, on an equal footing with everyone else, and they shall be rewarded.

Anyway, maybe we've hijacked this thread for our philosophical discourse too long?

ABC-DAD

生命自己會找到自己出路的

天外之人

路本身都應該係孩子自己點走,父母最應該衹係唔好叫佢走錯路就得,唔係刻意安排佢走什麼路.

ABC-DAD

天外之人 發表於 22-10-28 10:47
路本身都應該係孩子自己點走,父母最應該衹係唔好叫佢走錯路就得,唔係刻意安排佢走什麼路. ...

講重點吖唔該，可否定義左，「刻意安排」？
請舉例並說明［路本身都應該係孩子自己點走,父母最應該衹係唔好叫佢走錯路就得」


咁點去定義路？如果仔女話唔識，你教教我，如你所言，可以點做？

stillgood20

shadeslayer 發表於 22-10-28 00:00
Haha, again what you said is not wrong but it is not addressing the same problem I have had in mind. ...

我曾經寫過:  IQ130 資優+ 積優, 係最理想的.
如果, 觀察醫生/律師/一些專業人仕. 都似乎是這種配合多一些.

ABC兄, 曾問我點解.

其實, 用在教育理念.

這一類人仕, 受教育, Input 和 Output最理想.

老師/學校比幾多input, 他們可以有可靠/滿意的output.

如果, 教育工作者, 你會喜歡什麼?

當然喜歡喇!  因為, 可以見到"自己辛苦"的成果.


----  

IQ 100基數上,  出現高低. 是現實.
教育工作者, 並不是每個都認定什麼資優. 反而, 注意教育的重要性.

IQ 高, 未必合適input/output, 標準系統. 有時, 都幾討厭.

ABC-DAD

beastiebistro 發表於 22-10-28 10:10
Sorry, can't agree with that example at all. Slavery is not an occupation by any definition. Driving ...

Not too long!
很有價值的討論，無必要有結論或出現唯一真理，帶出嚟畀多啲人去思索前因後果以經係好好嘅哲學課。

同題目講要取消排名幾有關係，讓家長們諗下，取消左就係公平公義是否可以接受。

講返好多人權問題，申訴者無要求過特殊對待，要求嘅係正視歴史，要世界公平去理解佢地點樣被迫害碌削，要公平嘅「程序」畀佢地去爭取表現自已嘅機會。我反觀某些國度嘅做法係用看似合理嘅賠償同補助，掩飾唔公平嘅黑歷史，佔領道德高地，將人哋努力爭取公義變成追求施捨，把申訴方嘅精英拉到自己陣營，扮個人權獎，宣傳下，隔一段時間倒轉頭污衊申訴一方貪得無厭，係賴蛤蟆，重想食人哋隻車，問題一啲都無解決，更什係利用力量，變本加厲去侵擾，禁聲。

奇怪嘅現象係，温水煮蛙真係得架，無得比較參照，真係唔覺唔覺就無得翻身，劣幣驅逐良幣，良幣仲以為自己係劣幣，反之亦然，百試不爽。

Bye

shadeslayer

beastiebistro 發表於 22-10-28 10:10
Sorry, can't agree with that example at all. Slavery is not an occupation by any definition. Driving ...

Equalising job statuses, prestige and pay is wishful thinking and is not going to happen.  

Why would you study 6 years of med school or 3 years of law school + 1 year of LPC/SQE + 2 years of training in a law firm  just to get paid the same as the burger flipper in mcdd when he/she turn 16.

Not saying burger flippers or mailman are not important jobs because they are.  Equal pay is just socialism and come with a whole set of its own problems.  

We problems have gone on too long

ABC-DAD

shadeslayer 發表於 22-10-28 12:57
Equalising job statuses, prestige and pay is wishful thinking and is not going to happen.  

Why wo ...

Back to reality.People look for fare pay than equal pay .

ABC-DAD

用職業去衡量，具體我會試下用民航機師同巴士車長去參照，你兩位會點評價呢？唔同國家待遇都有出入。