香港專業智力評估協會-有多專業？

Dr.T

Parents have to very careful when planning to have their children tested with this association.

As the honorary academic consultant of the 香港學童智能檢查, may be I am not the best person to ask the question. But someone has to do blow the whistle...

Because according to what I read in the newspaper, this association seems to even get the classfification of gifted children wrong (they said 120 is already gifted but in HK we use 130 as cutoff point). The spokeperson knows very little about psycholgical testing and what they published are mainly copied from what I designed for 香港學童智能檢查. I haven't seen their result slip but I think it would be very similar to the one written by me.

Moreover the question sample they showed in the paper (which they should NEVER do as it's against professional conduct of psychological test user) is not the Raven questions I know. The norm they use is also doubtful and I seriously wonder whether they are using the HK norm.

I welcome qualified psychologist as myself offering truly professional services to the public, no matter whether it is free or not. Yet I don't think this association is monitored by a qualified psychologist.

Do tell us here if I am wrong.

frodo

在香港做韋氏智能評估費用實在太貴了，請問那里有比較便宜又可信的評估可選擇呢？謝謝Dr.T 又麻煩你了！！

Dr.T

frodo 寫道:
在香港做韋氏智能評估費用實在太貴了，請問那里有比較便宜又可信的評估可選擇呢？謝謝Dr.T 又麻煩你了！！

The problem is in order to be qualified as a psychologist takes years of training and the seemingly high consultation fee only reflects this fact.

There're quite a number of newly graduated clinical psychologists (from HKU & CU) appear in the market every year and some of them will go direct to the private market as they could not get a job from the government or VAs (that's why one of them even joined the Miss HK contest...just kidding :p). If parents don't mind their inexperience and lack of knowledge regarding schooling, then these new kids might be an option as they usually charge (much) cheaper than experienced ones. But whether it's money worth is another question.

I don't think it's possible to get same kind of professional service elsewhere (if you mean mainland China, or even Macau) as all psychological tests must be conducted by a properly qualified person. To be honest whoever sign the final report is much more important than what has been done.

faith

Dr.T,
    對不起，有點離題。   
不曉得你聽過hsp沒有，(highly sensitive person)，我知道香港很多人都不知道，我問過一位cp，他也完全不知道。我是在找資優的資料時偶然在外國的網頁發現。其中說出很多資優人士都是hsp，(比OE)分析的敏感更詳盡。香港也有賣這類書(HSP)，其中說到HSP一項特點，是如果是監視和TEST時，HSP會做得不好，無法表現出真正的能力。那麼，既然很多GIFTED是HSP，他們在TEST評估豈不不準確嗎？

市面現開始有外國/台灣傳入的皮紋測試，可信嗎？好像睇相(但強調有科學根據)，但有關人士說這可免除一般智能測試評估狀態時不穩的變數。

又一個三歲多四歲的孩子在智能評估上是不是只會低估而不會高估呢？

對不起，問了很多問題......香港沒有渠道可以問，要問個問題，一個小時650吧(協康會----已經很平了)

Fatbb

Dr T:
你係CP嚟桇?我個仔有自閉傾向，佢成曰鐘意用舌尖"甜"一下d嘢先玩，點處理好?

Dr.T

faith 寫道:
Dr.T,
    對不起，有點離題。   
不曉得你聽過hsp沒有，(highly sensitive person)，我知道香港很多人都不知道，我問過一位cp，他也完全不知道。我是在找資優的資料時偶然在外國的網頁發現。其中說出很多資優人士都是hsp，(比OE)分析的敏感更詳盡。香港也有賣這類書(HSP)，其中說到HSP一項特點，是如果是監視和TEST時，HSP會做得不好，無法表現出真正的能力。那麼，既然很多GIFTED是HSP，他們在TEST評估豈不不準確嗎？

市面現開始有外國/台灣傳入的皮紋測試，可信嗎？好像睇相(但強調有科學根據)，但有關人士說這可免除一般智能測試評估狀態時不穩的變數。

又一個三歲多四歲的孩子在智能評估上是不是只會低估而不會高估呢？

對不起，問了很多問題......香港沒有渠道可以問，要問個問題，一個小時650吧(協康會----已經很平了)

I consider myself rather widely read but honestly never heard about the term HSP before. According to your description it sounds like something invented by possibly those who favour alternative testing, such as 皮紋測試, than oridinary IQ test. I bet that those who said so are mostly likely not qualified psychologist (just as those who claim EQ is much more than IQ are usually people who cannot administer IQ tests). May be someday we'll have our children tested through sitting inside a box, but unfortunately this machine has not been successfully invented yet.

I do not recommend children under 5 to take IQ test unless it's really necessary- i.e. for those who are suspected mentally handicapped, or exceptionally gifted who have difficulty settling in schools. The reason is we (HK) do not have a really reliable IQ test for under 5 and what we are using now (Stanford-Binet) usually underestimate children's potential. In my years of practice I rarely saw kids obtain 130+ score on SB (less than 5 in 10 years!). I often, if not always, suggest parents to wait till 5.

But one of my sad memory is years ago a pair parents came to see me asking for their boy tested at the age of 4.5. The kid was very smart but professionally I had to ask them to wait as they had no immediate reason for the assessment. Months later my assistant called the parents and they replied that the child had already passed away. I was so sad...

Time allows I will try my best to answer (and ask) questions here.

Dr.T

Fatbb 寫道:
Dr T:
你係CP嚟桇?我個仔有自閉傾向，佢成曰鐘意用舌尖"甜"一下d嘢先玩，點處理好?

As I haven't seen your kid before so my advice is purely based on my experience. Technically I have to say I am not responsible for any negative consequence of my suggestions.

I assume s/he tastes all toys otherwise you might want to find out what kind of texture s/he likes to taste more. I'd recommend not to pay too much attention to this strange behaviour as that might make the child even more excited and  "tastes" the toys even more. May be you can focus on the correct play behaviour after his "tasting." If you kid can communicate with others in minimal language then it might be advisable to explain to him that tasting the toy will make him sick and being sick is not fun. Some people might suggest using "Bite-X" or 白花油 so the child will stop tasting the toys as it tastes awful, but what if he really likes the bitter taste, you never know...

I once had a client kept spitting and tasting everything around him and it's really disgusting for people around him. Honestly we cannot do much about it except the above few suggestions, which are more or less based on behaviour management technique.

There're a number of explanation on this kind of behaviour. My prefered one is they try to make a mark on things they thought belongs to themselves. The world of an autistic child is highly disorganized and they try their best to make it meaningful to them. This is just my theory after teaching them for 15 years. But if its true that helping them to become more psychologically secure might decrease the tasting behaviour.

No I am not a CP. Fortunately I am an Educational Psychologist (EP) who knows that my knowledge and skill have their limitation. That's why I mainly focus my practice with kids' learning problem.

c9fung

Dr.T

我兒子從小到大都不喜歡上學,讀書成績很差,也很頑皮,上堂不專心,常被老師投訴及約見家長,但老師在堂上問的問題他都懂,已經十六歲,現讀中五,中二的時候學校找了一個心理學家替他test,發現他IQ超過130,後來她還約見我,問我有關兒子的生活習慣及成長過程,我當時沒有問是否韋氏評估,只問有何方法幫助他好好成長,她說政府沒有支援給小學以上的孩子,浸會大學則有一些課程讓家長與孩子一起學習,只是費用很貴,請問現在政府有沒有支援這樣的孩子呢?(因為家貧,實在沒法付出昂貴費用)

Fatbb

Dr T:
Thanks for your information.  So, I do not need to intentionally stop his behavior, right?  It is glad to know you here.  very professional.  

BK members are really good, different kinds of prefessional to help parents....

Dr.T

Fatbb 寫道:
Dr T:
Thanks for your information.  So, I do not need to intentionally stop his behavior, right?  It is glad to know you here.  very professional.  

BK members are really good, different kinds of prefessional to help parents....

Thanks for your kind compliment. Just it'll be better to distract his attention than trying to stop him.

Dr.T

c9fung 寫道:
Dr.T

我兒子從小到大都不喜歡上學,讀書成績很差,也很頑皮,上堂不專心,常被老師投訴及約見家長,但老師在堂上問的問題他都懂,已經十六歲,現讀中五,中二的時候學校找了一個心理學家替他test,發現他IQ超過130,後來她還約見我,問我有關兒子的生活習慣及成長過程,我當時沒有問是否韋氏評估,只問有何方法幫助他好好成長,她說政府沒有支援給小學以上的孩子,浸會大學則有一些課程讓家長與孩子一起學習,只是費用很貴,請問現在政府有沒有支援這樣的孩子呢?(因為家貧,實在沒法付出昂貴費用)

In fact our govt does not offer ANY individual support to gifted children, whatever their age will be. The Fung Hoi Chu Centre is a white elephant and I'm not sure what they're doing inside the building now. ED people claim that they are now supporting the schools, who will then supposingly help their own gifted students indirectly. What a load of c**p.

The main reason that most of the enrichment courses are rather expensive is they are all self-financed, unless the organizer is lucky enough to get some money from the so called Quality Education Fund, which increasingly becomes a resource for the ED, rather than for the public.

As a private practitioner who has been struggling for years for survival, I really do not have much to offer.

But for your son, what he needs now might not be gifted programme afterall, but an experienced counsellor who will help him identifying his future goal. That might be a little bit easier to locate...

BTW, one other possible reason for his bad academic result might be reading difficulty. Gifted and dylexia can co-exist and it's a nightmare for parents.

Jokey2828

Dr. T,

Thank you very much for your professional advice. You are our Peter Pan!

If I am not wrong, you are the doctor who conducted the IQ Test for my child.

I have to thank you Doctor in this open forum for pointing out to me my child's Achilles' heel. I am now adjusting myself and my child's daily schedule, and hope that she will overcome her psychological barrier soon.

Jokey2828

Dr.T

Jokey2828 寫道:
Dr. T,

Thank you very much for your professional advice. You are our Peter Pan!

Jokey2828

Coincidentally I do have a Peter Pan crystal ball on my desk...

AGNESNG

Dr. T

我想知道做一個韋氏評估大約幾多錢, 去那裏報名? 是不是每年只有兩個時段可以參加做評估. 我亦想知道做這個評估大多數是不是覺得自己小朋友資質比較好才做這個評估呢?(因我小朋友有自閉傾向及輕度) 我想知到大約有幾多分數.    

c9fung

Dr.T,

謝謝您的回應,
其實兒子年幼時我已發覺他很聰明、敏感又有點過動,他一歲時已懂說很多詞語,他讀幼稚園時帶他到母嬰健康院,跟護士提起兒子有點過動可否轉介跟進,她說: 『個個父母都覺得自己D仔女過動啦,我覺得佢冇乜問題喎!』上二年級時查詢大口環,大口環回應要學校寫信轉介,我跟老師提起此事,老師表示他很聰明,只是懶散,在學術上沒有任何科目有特別出色的表現,也沒有讀寫或理解困難,只是成績差常欠交功課,這樣懶散的學生每間學校都有,不足以成為一個轉介的理由。升上四年級時他做學童保健問卷,護士發現他自我價值的評分很低,於是轉介到藍田作評估,我以為今次會跟進,誰知見到醫生只是問了幾句就塞了一堆小冊了及單張給我,叫我回家看,醫生一邊拿著原子筆把玩(好像金剛棒的轉)一邊對我兒子說:『你覺得讀書悶都要讀架啦,人人都係咁架啦,你依家唔讀書,咪等第時個社會懲 罰你low!』我問醫生有何法幫兒子積極一點面對功課,醫生叫我回家看小冊子,我表示已經看過很多有關書籍,他再次重複『你依家唔讀書,咪等第時個社會懲 罰你low!』(還繼續舞弄著筆),我不相信這樣一個醫生會幫助我的兒子,我決定好好看顧兒女,只要孩子本性不壞,就可好好成長,長大後他自會懂得選擇自己的路。我知道即使是私人評估機構也只跟進到十六歲。我感到兒子有對學業態度改善了,可能長大了也可能是剛開學不久,事實上每次收到成績表,班主任都是類似的評語”天資聰敏,未盡全力”,今年會考了,這個安慰獎 也許是最後的一個了!

Dr.T

AGNESNG 寫道:
Dr. T

我想知道做一個韋氏評估大約幾多錢, 去那裏報名? 是不是每年只有兩個時段可以參加做評估. 我亦想知道做這個評估大多數是不是覺得自己小朋友資質比較好才做這個評估呢?(因我小朋友有自閉傾向及輕度) 我想知到大約有幾多分數.    

Raven雷文氏 and Wechsler韋氏 both are recognized IQ tests but are totally different from each other. Wechsler costs about $2000 to $5000 (depends on where you go and whom will do it for you, also whether you need the detailed report or not).

According to my information, there're at least two organizations claiming that they will provide Raven test. One is 明日棟樑 while the other is 香港專業智力評估協會. I am sure that 明日棟樑 is using the real Raven with HK norm. Not sure what 香港專業智力評估協會 is using and from what I read in the newspaper it is definitely not Raven. The former charges $200 while the latter around $120-150 (can't remember exactly the figure as I read in the paper).

My biased opinion (as the service provider) is that a comprehensive IQ test conducted by a qualified psychologist can enhance your understanding of your child. There are 11 subtests on the Wechsler and a good professional should explain to you clearly what they mean. In fact the final scores are less as important. On the other hand, you can only get one score from Raven.

BTW AGNESNG, I think the govt should have done a detailed Wechsler for your kid. May be you can ask the responsible agency (not sure where you went for pre-primary assessment) for details.It's not necessary for you to spend the well earned money on further testing. Raven might not be too suitable for him as he might have difficulty following exam instructions.

AGNESNG

Dr. T.

很多謝你的保貴資料, 最難得是你這種專業人士願意為每一人仔細地解答疑難. 謝謝你!

AGNES

  

Dr.T

AGNESNG 寫道:
Dr. T.

很多謝你的保貴資料, 最難得是你這種專業人士願意為每一人仔細地解答疑難. 謝謝你!

AGNES

  

In fact I have to thank you all for your trust. I'm just doing what my other professional colleagues should have done in their day time well-paid job...

faith

DR.T
      一直有一堆問題，可否給我一點意見呢﹗我想了很久要如何組織精簡寫出來...我真的很困擾。
     我的兒子現在三歲十個月，有一些情緒上，和言語上咬字發音很不正確的問題。很辛苦終於有機會給介去政府做簡單的言語及認知評估。評估結果是語言理解冇問題，但發音則學錯哂..很不成熟的咬字，語言表達上有輕微delay(解釋有可能是不願表達和咬字不正影響)，情緒方面，至少安心的是他並不是自閉，也不大可能是aspeger，我問醫生為何他會如此情緒化和常不睬人("懶"有性格咁)，會否是資優(導致)的一些情緒和行為問題，醫生有可能。又剛買了highly sensitive child的一本書，描述的特徵很似my son，我想他和我一樣是hsp(正如上次跟你說過)。
      在簡單的認知評估上，醫生說他有五歲半的能力。建議我在他稍大時作全面評估及也作藝術創造力方面的評估。我說我早已開始儲錢準備如此。
      但問題是，我覺得沒耐性去和他相處，他性格倔強，脾氣有點古怪.....我怕自己會做得不好，使他更depressed，曾想過貴也上報一些培育gifted的course，但又不確定會否搞錯。
問題1﹕我的孩子除了數學方面較突出(3歲10個月的他可以
       計算簡單除數和對因數和質數有些概念了。買了vcd給
      他，我也沒留意有12個單元，我只對他說﹕你今天看到
     單元三就好，他馬上告訴我，那麼4天便可以看完了。問
    36粒糖分給6個小朋友，他可以心算出每人有5粒，剩返
    一粒。
         但他好像卻沒有很多gifted的特徵，他的problem -solving skill一點也不突出，給他幾何拼板，拼不到也不懂反轉來拼。又記性也無乜特別標青，觀察力只限於與數字有關的事物。有唔會不停問﹕為甚麼﹗也不是有極高的好奇心。對於閱讀方面，除了二歲左右大時曾瘋狂的拿書本讀英文字母、串字外(只限於幾個月)，現在都難得拿書看，看書的目的大都是留意頁數和單元幾....或只做數學練習或寫字，有時一天就由1寫到幾近一千，(他很愛寫英文字母和數字，2歲半前已會自己默寫所有大小楷英文字母和數字，只自己練了兩星期)，gifted 閱讀能力都很高，但他似乎無乜特別....他好不太喜歡思考....
想問，你曾見過一些gifted也是---很少問為甚麼，記憶力並不是很了得，閱讀興趣不高？觀察力也不是很強？
又有冇一些數學能力超前如my son但結果不是gifted 呢？
(撇除不是自閉或嚴重學習障礙)

問題2，如果到他五六歲時，咬字發音仍不清，會否很難做iq test？可怎辦？

問題3，咬字發音問題和腦部缺損有關嗎？會自己好嗎？

問題4，他學琴也很快，才學不到四個月便可以彈貝多芬的給愛麗絲了，只是彈得不太好聽而已，但他真的"曾"很愛彈琴，。他視譜能力以3歲多的孩子來說真的很不錯了。音樂是右腦，數學是左腦，會否增加了他的情緒矛盾？音樂才能是否無法用iqtest？

問題4，我是否有太多問題？sorry﹗我真的煩了許久......

以下是hsp的一些網址﹕
自從我把這hsp及HSC的資料給了一些人及家長後，都為他們帶來了"驚喜"，所以想也給你分享
http://www.hsperson.com/
           www.sensitiveperson.com
          www.sensitivepeople.com
         www.highlysensitiveperson.com

         www.health.groups.yahoo.com/group/hspbook/
       (這個是hsp的網上聯盟，其中也包括hscbook，給家有hsc的家長....)真的很不錯

Dr.T

Dear Faith,

Thanks for your questions and your trust on me. I've started a new topic and answered your questions elsewhere.



BTW, the reason I start the current topic is I suspect that 香港專業智力評估協會 is a fake(冒牌). Someone told me that this organization copied all the materials I did voluntarily for 明日棟樑 but they are not using the real 雷文氏!! It'll be a very bad experience for kids who take the 冒牌心理測驗. 小心！小心！