如何為初學幼兒選擇"琴"？

ckwok1

{Posting 1/5}

First, I must confess that the title is misleading. It is because this posting is not going to tell you how to choose a piano for the young beginner. It only tells you my experience in choosing an "piano" for my daugher. However, I really hope my experience will help you in making your own decision.

Secondly, sorry for posting in English. It is because my typing speed in Chinese is horrible. I will never make it if I want to post this in Chinese.

ckwok1

{Posting 2/5}

I am a father of a 5 years old daughter. About 11 months ago, my daughter started her first piano lesson at her request.

I faced with a question that many parents have asked or will asked:

    "What kind of piano should I buy to let her practice at home?"

Since it is a very common question, so I was sure that I can find my answer easily on the Internet at that time.

(Simulated questions and answers session)

Qu. 1: What kind of piano should I buy to let her practice at home?

A good piano.

Qu. 2: A good piano made in Japan or Europe costs over $30000. I don't want to spend that kind of money until I know she is really interested in it and she has the talent. What other options do I have?

Then buy a cheaper piano. But be prepared to get a good piano in several years. Buying a second hand or renting a piano is risky unless you know someone who is reliable and has the knowledge to select for you.
[If I know someone with such knowledge, I won't be asking]

Qu. 3: A piano requires a lot of space....My home is not really big. Can I buy a electronic piano for her? She is only a beginner.

Electronic piano is NO good. Student cannot learn the correct way to play piano using electronic piano.

The way the sound is generated in an acoustic piano (using hammer and string) is completely different from a electronic piano (using speaker).

Qu. 4: Will it be okay if I let my daughter uses a electronic piano to practice for the first few months. If she is still interest in it, I will buy a piano.

... NO ANSWER ...  

Qu. 5: The price range of electronic piano is quite large. From less than a hundred to over ten thousand dollars. Will it be better if I buy a more expensive one?

... NO ANSWER ...  


Qu 6: There are many kinds of electronic piano. What are their differences? Are they all bad?

... NO ANSWER ...  


Qu. 7: I know the way the sound is *GENERATED* in an acoustic piano is different from an electronic piano. But the important part is do they *SOUND* different enough that it affect a 4-year old beginner ?

... NO ANSWER ...  


Since the answers I got are not really satisfactory, I set out to do my own research. . .

ckwok1

{Posting 3/5}

First of all, I need to find out what choices are available.

[The categories defined are my own choices only. Price are approximate.]
[The symbol => stands for requirement.]
[The symbol -> stands for additional description]

o Grand piano 三角鋼琴 (acoustic piano) -- out of the question. Even if I have the money, I don't have the space at home.

o Upright piano 直立式鋼琴 (acoustic piano) -- usually the higher the better and more expensive. Usually 120 cm or above are considered better (necessary for good bass performance).

o Silent Piano (acoustic + digital) -- an acoustic piano of which the sound from hammer and string can be muted. But sound can still be generated using the technology of digital piano.

o Digital Piano 數碼鋼琴 -- state of the art in emulation of acoustic piano using digital technology.
=> With 88-keys graded hammer keyboard
=> With at least 2 pedals and a robust stand
-> from about HK$10000
-> Advance technologies are used in reproducting the sound of acoustic piano.
(For details about a mid-range digital piano, see an case study later)

o Electronic Piano 電子鋼琴 -- Not as sophisticated as a digital piano.
=> with 88-keys, they may use graded hammer or grade-weighted keys.
=> At least 1 pedal.
-> from about $5000
-> usually portable (i.e. don't come with a fixed stand)
-> Sound system usually not as good as digital piano.

o Touch sensitive 力度感應琴鍵 keyboard -- It used touch sensitive keys
=> Most of them have less than 88 keys but at least 61 keys.
=> With at least 10-notes polyphony 10-音符複音
=> Standard size key spacing. Most of them use organ style key.
=> The volume of the sound generated depends on how fast you depress the key.
-> From about $1500
-> Spring or similar mechanism are used to simulate the weight of the keys. Therefore the feeling is different from action/hammer type keyboard
-> Most support one optional sustain pedal.
-> A lot of touch sensitive keyboards have display of the position of the note played on staff (五線譜).

o Basic Keyboard
=> Usually less than 88 keys but at least 61 keys.
=> With at least 10-notes polyphony
=> Standard size key spacing. Most, if not all, of them use organ style key.
-> Starts from several hunder dollars.
-> No touch sensitive keys. Therefore the volume of the sound generated is always the same independent of the force used to press the key.
-> A lot of them have display.

o Toy Keyboard -- keyboard that cannot meet the criteria of the above categories
-> Non-standard key spacing
-> and/or have less than 61 keys
-> and/or support less than 10-notes polyphony

o Others
-> Electone or Electonics Organ 雙排鍵電子琴 -- a different kind of musical instructure with keyboard(s).
-> Piano specially designed for composing or with other special features.

--Glossary--
Graded Hammer Keyboard -- The keyboard uses a mechanism similar to those used in acoustic piano. The action uses a weighted mechanism and grade-weighted keys (gradually heavier, top (right) to bottom (left)) to provide a "natural feel"

Graded Weight Keyboard -- The keyboard uses some way to simulate the feeling of action/hammer keyboard used in acoustic piano. The weight of the keys are gradually heavier, top (right) to bottom (left).

Standard Key Spacing -- The "standard" width of a 88-key keyboard is about 1220 mm +/- 20 mm". So standard key width (include spacing) is about 23.5 mm

n-notes Polyphony -- the ability to play the sounds of up to n notes at the same time.

ckwok1

{Posting 4/5}

A case study : A mid-range digital piano.

[ Note: I use Yamaha digital piano as an example only because I can find more information about Yamaha digital pianos than any other brand. They are not necessary better.]

Let's look at an example of a mid-range digital piano. Yamaha CLP-240 (it is listed as $15000 at Tom Lee)

o Graded Hammer 3 (GH3) keyboard

-> the mechanism used is similar to those used in acoustic piano except that it does not have a hammer. Then sensors are added to detect the movement of the keys.
-> The action uses a weighted mechanism and grade-weighted keys (gradually heavier, top (right) to bottom (left)) to provide a "natural feel"  <more info>


o 3-level Dynamic Stereo Sampling AWM (Advanced Wave Memory) tone generation with Stereo Sustain Samples and Key-Off Samples

-> Stereo sampling enabling the recording of the position of string in a piano.
-> 3 sets of samples are taken at different levels from loud to soft. Other levels of
   sound are interpolated from the 3 sets of samples.
-> Stereo Sustain samples are the sound when the damper pedal is pressed.
-> Key-Off samples provide the delicate sound keys make when they are released.

o 3 Pedals

-> Damper (sustain), Sostenuto, Soft
-> Support half pedal for damper. A "half-pedal" effect lets you use the damper pedal to create partial sustain effects, depending on how far down you press the pedal.

o Recording in MIDI - up to 3 songs

o Metronome

o 64-notes polyphony
--------------------------------
How can we compare it with an acoustic piano? The obvious way is to actually play it and compare it with acoustic piano. The problem is that with my untrained hands and my inexperience ears, I cannot feel and hear any difference among this digital piano, $2xxxx acoustic piano and a $5xxxx acoustic piano. (There are differences in the weight of the keys. But different brands of pianos are different, so this does not count).

So I use another less obvious way. I compare it with the high end model of digital piano. Assuming that the high end model is another step closer in emulation of acoustic piano, I can deduce how close/far the CLP-240 is feel and sound like an acoustic piano. (Before you jump up and protest, I know this is now a perfect method. But what choices do I have?) The difference I found are:

o 4 sets of samples are taken at different levels from loud to soft instead of 3 in CLP-240
o Samples for "String Resonance" which is missing in CLP-240. String resonance is the
subtle sound produced by the strings other than the one hit by the hammer. Since the
damper are in place, the volume of string resonance is very small.
<more info>


o A better speaker system -- 2 amplifiers with 8 speakers instead of 1 amplifier with 4 speakters.

o Same key mechanism but high end model may use natural wood keyboard.

So the difference in keyboard is basically none. The difference in sound seems to be subtle and it will probably be recognized by someone with a lot of training.

ckwok1

{Posting 5/5}
(Only) MY Conclusions:

Toy keyboard -- not suitable for practising even for beginner. With non-standard key spacing, one will have problem when switching to standard key size. With 2 to 3 octaves only, very quickly you would encounter some songs that go beyond the available keys.

Basic keyboard -- Not suitable for practising. However, if you already have one, you may let your child continue to use it for a few months. When he/she begins to learn about staff (五線譜) and the symbol "p", "f" ... etc, it is time to change.

Touch Sensitive keyboard -- Okay to use for practising primer level songs. It should be able to meet the requirement for 9 months to over 1 year depending on the progress. When your child begins to play songs with a lot of intervals and/or chords (such as Waltz) using two hands, it is time for you to consider buying a better piano (but not in big hurry).

A lot of touch sensitive keyboard also has displaying with staff. It can help you and your child to learn reading staff. But don't let your child relies on it.

Electronic Piano -- with grade-weighted keys and emulation of hammer/action key. It should be sufficient for probably grade 2 or even higher (depending on the model).

Digital Piano -- a mid-range digital piano can probably meet the requirements of mid to high grade. The keyboard feeling should be very close to an acoustic piano. The sound is reasonably good too. Probably most people are unable to distinguish in a few feets from it. But for the one playing, the feeling of vibration (especially bass notes) produced by acoustic piano will probably be different. I am not good enough to judge it at the shop.

Upright Piano and Grand Piano -- recommended by most piano teacher for learning piano.

Silent Piano -- almost the best of both world. It is usually > $10000 more expensive that the acoustic piano model.


Summary:
o While an acoustic piano is recommended by most piano teacher, I am not completely convinced for young (3 to 6 years old) beginner. The reasons are:
-> Many of them may give up in a short time. However, they will try again one to two years later. The daughter of one of my friends joined Tom Lee music class at 4, gave up in about a month. One year later, she tried again with a piano teacher. Again, she gave up quickly. When she was eight years old, she tried again and continue to play for over two years now.

-> During the first year of learning, the song played by your child is probably not very pleasant. It will be good if the volume can be controlled.

-> Some gimmicks available on electronic keyboard are useful for beginner especially when the parents do not have any musical training. For example, the display of staff, metronone, some demo songs ... etc.


o While toy keyboard and basic keyboard are not recommended for practicing at home, all other choices are acceptable but it would affect how long the "piano" can/should be used. I don't think buying a more expensive "piano" will make any difference in the progress at the early stage.

o If you intend to buy a cheap/old second hand piano, you should really consider buying a digital piano instead. Then you don't have to worry about maintenance and tuning.


------------------------
For the record, the following are my choices:

I bought a touch sensitive keyboard for my daughter about 11 months ago.

While I prefer to buy an digital piano for my daughter until she reaches grade 5 or above, I eventually bought an acoustic piano about a month ago because the piano teacher obviously not happy about my preference.

One final remark  

I also found that usually the older (or should I use "more experience") the piano teacher, the less likely they approve digital piano.

I can feel that they are coming .......

      

[[[ Just my two cents ]]]

tweetybird

CKWOK1

多謝你的意見。但有下列的問題：

我正在煩緊買digital定係piano。 ^_^""我去了睇toyama的piano，其實買一個15,000元的piano的聲好似比digital的還是無什麼分析 ?_?。另外，yamaha的digital的touch可以較輕重的，其實係唔係已經解決了所謂觸感的問題呢？我有個朋友的仔都用digital考到5級呢....還有出面有很多的考試好似都有用digital piano去考的，如果digital真係唔係咁好的，點解又會俾人用來考試呢？sorry，太多問題問了...因為我實在腦交戰.....=_=

你當初想買邊隻model的digital piano呀？請分享下。再者，我想問我如果我個女係新手，想問下如果想買piano，你會買yamaha定toyama俾你個女呢？

thanks a lot.

ckwok1

...
另外，yamaha的digital的touch可以較輕重的，其實係唔係已經解決了所謂觸感的問題呢？

Yamaha digital piano uses graded hammer keyboard but the weight of the keys cannot be changed. They have the "Touch sensitive" setting but (quote from the manual):

  This setting does not change the
  weight of the keyboard.

Furthermore, weight of key is different from "feeling". For example, weight of keys in Kawai piano are heavier than Yamaha piano. But both are considered good piano.

你當初想買邊隻model的digital piano呀？請分享下
thanks a lot.

Probably CLP-220 or CLP-240. I haven't really decided.

想問下如果想買piano，你會買yamaha定toyama俾你個女呢？

I don't think I am knowledgeable enough to comment.

tweetybird

那你會選digital 或是鋼琴呢？

ChiChiPaPa

ckwok1 寫道:

[quote]
你當初想買邊隻model的digital piano呀？請分享下
thanks a lot.

Probably CLP-220 or CLP-240. I haven't really decided.

[/quote]

我是門外漢，不過，我覺得CLP-220和CLP-240有兩個很大的分別:

1. CLP-220的keyboard是Graded Hammer (GH) keyboard 而 CLP-240的是Graded Hammer Effect 3 (GH3)的較新keyboard。感覺得不同。
2. CLP-220不support half pedal。

tweetybird

那即是係初學階段學piano，買鋼琴和同digital piano的分別唔大，那clp-240是不是一個合適的選擇呢？但graded hammer和graded hammer effect 3的分析在那兒？如果唔選yamaha，選roland和casio又如何？

唔好意思太多問題問，因為我係新手...

thanks

ChiChiPaPa

tweetybird 寫道:
graded hammer和graded hammer effect 3的分析在那兒？
thanks

Keyboard Touch Response (Please click)

Roland HP107 support half pedal. HP103 and HP101 do not support half pedal. All models of Casio do not support half pedal.

Yanni

其實一定鋼琴好，電子始終易壞，價錢都唔平。

ckwok1

ChiChiPaPa 寫道:

我是門外漢，不過，我覺得CLP-220和CLP-240有兩個很大的分別:

1. CLP-220的keyboard是Graded Hammer (GH) keyboard 而 CLP-240的是Graded Hammer Effect 3 (GH3)的較新keyboard。感覺得不同。
2. CLP-220不support half pedal。

Of course CLP-240 is better. The sound of CLP-240 should be better too. However, it is also 50% more expensive. If one intends to buy a piano a few years later, CLP-220 may be more suitable.

The mechanism of GH and GH3 is basically the same. GH3 has one more sensor for better position control. The effect will be useful at higher grade only.

ckwok1

tweetybird 寫道:
那你會選digital 或是鋼琴呢？

Please remember there are three parties involved:
1. You
2. Your child
3. Your child's piano teacher

You don't really want the teacher not happy about your piano choice.

Furthermore, there are many other environmental factors:
1. Whether your house has room or not
2. Whether noise is a problem or not (e.g. baby at home)
3. Whether you have friendly neighbour or not   .

You have to decided yourselves.

ckwok1

Yanni 寫道:
其實一定鋼琴好

I agree BUT that does not mean using other alternative is bad, especially a suitable choice at the early stage.

Many pilots learn to fly in simulator before they actually fly a plane.

，電子始終易壞，價錢都唔平。

How long can you use a piano without maintenance and tuning?

llmom

how much for CLP-F01 and CLP-240 ? :idea:

ckwok1

llmom 寫道:
how much for CLP-F01 and CLP-240 ? :idea:

CLP-240 is listed as $15000 at Tom Lee.
I don't know the price of CLP-F01 at Tom Lee but the manufacturer list price is about twice of CLP-240. It is even more expensive than CLP-280.

llmom

ckwok1 寫道:
[quote]
llmom 寫道:
how much for CLP-F01 and CLP-240 ? :idea:

CLP-240 is listed as $15000 at Tom Lee.
I don't know the price of CLP-F01 at Tom Lee but the manufacturer list price is about twice of CLP-240. It is even more expensive than CLP-280.
[/quote]

Thanks a lot.