Why is Chinese so important when chosing IS?

JJsMama

Couple of reasons:

1.  Maintain the child's competitiveness (ie. in future job market) as already mentioned by another BK member.   

2.  Respect for one's own national identity - Can you imagine a German kid brought up in Germany not able to read & write German?   For the same matter, Japanese, French and English who are raised in their own country illiterate in their own langauge & culture?   

While it is totally legitimate for overseas Chinese to miss out the better part of Chinese.  It is a shame for us Hongkongers not capitalise on the bi-lingual opportunity for our children.  It is a natural exposure afterall and takes relatively little effort for children to pick up the language at a young age.

   

JJsMama

First and foremost, a lot of us opt for an international education because we have little faith in HK's education system.  We are willing to pay a premium because we feel international schools can offer a more balanced education.  We like to give our children a chance to develop into a more rounded person with better thinking skills.  We want them to love learning and enjoy school life.  (I for one find it meaningless for any children to sit through their homework into wee hours in the morning.)

Equally important, international schools allow them to be exposed to other cultures.  It is absolutely invaluable, and in fact a privilege, for a child to gain a wider perspective of the world from a young age.  

Luckily, international (or international-style) schooling and Chinese language is not mutually exclusive in HK.   Of course, we have to live with the reality that the more serious the school gets with its Chinese education, the smaller the size of its international community.  It is a bit of a compromise for us parents who think Chinese is a neccessity.   But, at least there is a choice out there to cater for people with different priorities.

Vrindavan 寫道:
if Chinese is so important
go for a local school where the kids can learn both

it is free or much cheaper

if you have money

go for an independent private school,
do not choose IS

my 2 cents

JJsMama

I don't think national identity is such a vague concept.   If I am of Chinese blood,  I am Chinese.  Like it or not, people of other nationalities see me as Chinese even if I think myself a banana.   And as Chinese, we should be proud of our national identity.  Our language is part of the identity.   Take myself as example.  I have lived in 5 countries and held regional positions across a great number of markets.  I spend half my life away from HK and consider myself quite an international citizen.   I can tell you the more races I meet, the more I grow to respect myself being a Chinese.   And no matter where I am, which national I speak to, they always know their languages.   Even Singaporeans, with English as their official tongue, have to study their respective native dialect.

It's true I have never had to write Chinese correspondence or documents in my career.  But it doesn't mean my Chinese linguistic ability never comes into play.  Even though my China counterparts have the good grace to entertain me in English (both conversationally & in correspondence), I earnestly don't think this practice will sustain forever.   When we hire people in HK, in addition to the relevant skill sets, the pre-requisites are English & Chinese, period.   If we need a pure English speaker with extraordinary experience, we would hire Caucasians from overseas.   I am not trying to make a generalisation (if you work in hi-banking for the top houses, you probably don't need to utter a single word of Chinese), but, logically speaking, why would one settle for a Chinese grad who can only speak English, and not someone who is effectively bi-lingual??  There are many graduates from top tier universities who can do both, plus more.   It’s a competitive world.   I know many ABCs, CBCs, British Chinese who hold great jobs in HK because they have gained very valuable experience in their own countries, not because they are native English speakers.

I agree Chinese is a relatively difficult language to master.  It takes considerable effort to get proficient.   It was not my favourite subject although I did not find it particularly difficult.   Knowledge is an asset.  I personally would not deprive my child from the opportunity to learn anything (especially something as important as our language) even if I have developed a phobia in my youth.  They may choose to pull out say after P5.  But, at least they would have picked up some fundamental skills.  I would hate for someone to ask my kid one day how come he doesn't know Chinese and his reply to be because 'my parents said it's too difficult and useless'.

Anyway, I don't think parents who think Chinese is important should NOT consider international schools.   Aren't there pretty good options out there like CIS and SIS?  Even ISF, though it's considered an independent school, offers an international school mode of education.   And isn't ESF going to offer IB diploma which requires a second language (one obvious choice to be Mandarin)?   Should French International, GSIS be rubbished because they also teach their national language?  There may not be such a choice of international schools 15, 20 years back.  The world changes.   A lot of parents at my time just send kids to boarding schools at the age of 13 or 14; now with different IS options, they probably keep the kids home longer.

You may think us parents are fashion follower.  The fact is we simply like to give the best opportunities to our children and equip them with the right tools.   My son is 31/2.  He is already effectively bi-lingual (Eng & Can) and can recognise more Chinese words than his daddy.   He completely integrates with his American, British and French neighbourhood friends (he even questioned them how come they don't speak Chinese); and (I was rather astonished) he can speak simple Mandarin to a 5 year old Chinese boy in China .   It was obvious from his eyes that he felt empowered and confident over his peers with his tri-lingual capabilities.   The beauty is, it's never a painful learning process for him.

Anyway, is Chinese/Mandarin a fashion, fad or the way forward?  Time will tell.    There are a lot of well-healed professional parents out there who choose bi-lingual international programme, and I don't think they are complete idiots.

JJsMama

Newton 寫道:
JJsMaMa,

Let's get a bit pedantic here. Hong Kong is different from the rest of China where national identity is vague. Our generation has been receiving western style education, drive our cars on the left lane, learn English as much as Chinese, and demanding democracy much more than people from mainland China. Your Chinese passport allows you to get a 10 year visa to the US while the same Chinese passport from mainland China can only be 3 months. I am not denying myself as Chinese but there are fundamental differences between Chinese in Hong Kong and Chinese in mainland China and it is how foreigners see it (at least for the majority of foreigners living in the same dorm with me). National identity is something that is perceived by the others, not coming from own respect of being a Chinese.

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May be I have made a wrong choice of word.   Perhaps I should say 'race'?   Whatever.  The bottom line is if one walk in with a Chinese face and is brought up in a Chinese-speaking community such as HK, it is more than reasonable to expect one to be literate in the language.   You may disagree with my statement but I personally believe it's a matter of self-respect.   

Incidentally, my position is neutral with China's Chinese.   I'm neither for nor against them.   I may not claim I am "from China" because there are too big of a fundamental difference between Hongkongers and "Chinamen" for me to see that we are exactly the same people.  But I definitely don't feel ashamed wearing the HKSAR/China badge.    Anyway, this is a digression and is irrelevant to the topic.

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You might want to be a bit more elaborate than just a period when you claim English and Chinese are pre-requisite for many jobs. I am pretty sure a lot of job need both languages but it is only confined to conversational Chinese. It is entirely rare for employer in Hong Kong demanding Chinese writing and reading as pre-requisites.

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Please don't tell me you've never included Chinese in your CV just to add weight despite the fact that you think it's useless.


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You are basically making a case where one with both Chinese and English writing and reading skills will be a better candidate given the rest are equal ---- Well! isn't it too trivial? What I am trying to say though is the advantage may not justify a kid to make tremendous efforts to learn writing and reading in secondary language (now is Chinese in international school) given that they have mastered conversational skills.
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As I said, I am not generalising.   But given graduates who have common education and skills sets, the language competitive advantage is a reality.   By not knowing Chinese, you are probably limiting many job opportunities and closing a lot of doors for your child in HK.


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I do not totally deny children from learning Chinese in IS. As long as they are interested in it, it is alright. As a side topic, why SIS? SIS is not really an international school (well, may be international in HK but local in Singapore) as it adopts pretty much the educational system from Singapore. The curriculum is as tough as if not tougher than that in Hong Kong because part of their aim is to prepare Singaporean in Hong Kong to take their local exam when they go back. Is choosing SIS somewhat killing the purpose of enrolling international schooling?

________________

SIS is first built to cater for the expat S'pore children who will eventually go back to their own country.   I agree with you that it is less 'international' by nature and are not adopting IB like many international schools have recently.   Nevertheless, they still have a composition of Singaporeans, Malaysians, Chinese, Indian, Koreans and Japanese.  Part of the reason for going for an international education I mentioned previously is to allow the kid to be exposed to different cultures and have a more balanced view of the world, by that, I will say SIS is still an international school.

SIS' curriculum may be demanding, but many parents feedback their kids really love the school.  I can only presume that a tough curriculum does not necessarily translate into a tough learning experience.

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The offering of Chinese in many international school as an optional course is more or less a marketing technique. You are not seriously think that they will offer some sort of rigorous Chinese language for the kids, do you? Or do you have any expectation of a kid Chinese language purely by going through these optional courses? To me, it is just another form of English language taught in local school. How many local students you find can speak acceptable English?
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I don't think many parents are expecting our children to be Chinese language professors whether they learn it from traditional or international schools.   And yes, I do find IS students to be able to speak excellent Mandarin.  Much better than kids from local schools.  So it is NOT a marketing gimmick.

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My kids can speak both English and Chinese well too. But to me, it is too early to tell whether he can learn Chinese characters with ease. Up to now, even the number of English words he knows is only a tip in an iceberg and with his growing speed of curiosity and many other stuffs of his interest, I am even worrying he will eventually lose his rather happy experience of learning English words (which is already quite easy compared to Chinese).

I am not saying that I am 100% right. If your kid can swallow thousands of different non structural Chinese characters with ease and interest, by all means. However, following those well-healed professionals may not be right all the time since many well-healed professionals may not even spend more than 1 hour a day with their kids to understand what they want and need.
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It seems to me that you oppose to learning Chinese mainly because you think this chore takes tremendous efforts (which you obviously did when you were young) and it's not justifiable because it's not a necessity.  Let's not assume on our kids behalf their likes and dislikes, and their ability to learn.   It's true that some children may not enjoy Chinese, just like mathematics or history or science or sports or music.    If you don't foster a learning environment for them in the first place, how can you be sure to say they won't like it?    I think we have to all agree that the later we get exposed to the language, the harder it is to learn.  But, it's not a doomsday situation, and I don’t know why people are somehow portrayed as suppressive parents.

You may be right that some parents don’t have a minute of the day for their children.  But I also know a lot of professional parents who are actively involved with their child’s education as well as their hobbies.  Even though they have busy schedules, they give the kids as much quality time as they can afford.   

My apologies for the long message too.  I do get carry away.

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Sorry for rather lengthy message.....

JJsMama

So by your definition, is CIS an international school or an independent school?  Given it too has a vigorous bilingual programme plus a majority of Chinese students (though some may choose to use their foreign passports to label themselves as Canadians, Americans, Australians....).  Lenglengma seems to deem CIS a worthy IS while other similar schools should go for renaming.  

(btw,  I'm not going to spend time arguing whether some international schools should be called independent private schools as it depends on how the individual or organisation defines 'international'.  Is it by its syllabus?  By student composition?  By the number of foreign teachers?   By the number of white faces?   If parents are happy to pay money and place their children in an 'international' school with a majority of Asian or Chinese, so be it.  Hong Kong is a free society.)

Going back to the topic which is 'Why is Chinese so important when chosing IS.'.  Many parents have already stated their personal reasons.   As for the intensity of the Chinese programme, it is up to the individual to decide after weighing other equally important selection criteria.   For those who don't believe in learning the language, they are free to choose GSIS, FIS, HKIS, or whichever one that offers a virtually non-existent Chinese programme.   

And I don't seem to recall any parents here wanting their children to be Chinese language professors.  Similarly, I don't think we expect our children to be Eng lit teachers just because we send them to IS.   We are after is bi-lingual proficieny.  Get it?   Why are people so eager to declare IS incapable of delivering Chinese.  I don't hear the relevant schools saying it.

Vrindavan 寫道:
i agree with lenglengma and Newton

repeat :

There are two choices
1. independent private schools - more or strong Chinese
2. international schools - less or no Chinese

do not expect international schools
to be independent private schools

make up the decision what type of school you prefer

JJsMama

lenglengma 寫道:
"Lenglengma seems to deem CIS a worthy IS while other similar schools should go for renaming. "

It was only because CIS calls themselves CHinese international school...hahaha...

Still no parents want to share what language do they use to communicate with their kids at home?

    "French international kids should definately learn French as their second language...German Swiss should definately learn German....Chinese International school should learn Chinese, Japanese International school should learn Japanese...for all other IS which provides intensive Chinese lessons should call themselves English Chinese school instead.  Have you guys noticed that those English Chinese schools now consist of more Chinese now?Are they still international? They are not international anymore...that's why they should no longer be called International school because it simply losts its meaning."


....So why the double standard for CIS?  And for the other nationalities?

As a matter of interest, which IS do you think is undeserving?

Personally speaking, I don't care the school is called international, independent, donkey or horse.  If its
curricular, teaching approach, philosophy, culture and atmosphere fit my bill, I will go for it.   

Anyway, I have made all my points in my previous contribution and have nothing more to add.  I like to thank those who bear my lengthy postings and bid you all a good evening.

JJsMama

Newton 寫道:
JJsMaMa,

1) No matter how much you say you respect your nation, you are the handful of people in HK to abandon (although not totally) Chinese language as first language to learn if given choice! Do you realise that?

2) What is the your point on those CV thing? I simply said many jobs do not require Chinese writing and reading. Whether you want to include Chinese in your CV is irrelevant, isn't it? But frankly, I never included *Chinese writing* and *Chinese reading* in my CV.

3) I didn't say "not knowing Chinese entirely", did I? We can argue to the end of the world but English is an official language in HK and it does not take too much efforts to infer that mastering good English writing and reading skills and at the same time can communicate in Chinese conversationally have satisfied most job requirements. How many firms do use Chinese to exchange E-mail. You tell me?

4) Can a school full of Asians provides a balance view of the world to your kids? I think your main reason is to get away from the unnecessary competition in local school. SIS is even more tougher than many local school, I am utterly confused?

5) I mentioned *professionals* was to tell you that you should not blindly follow professionals and bring them up to support your argument. I never meant that 100% of professionals do not care their children, as implied by your sentence!

6) I never said I oppose learning Chinese, did I? I will support them if they like it. But I will not make it mandatory and do not make fuss about not knowing it. By choosing IS program, Chinese is like any other languages are deemed to be secondary. By being able to speak 2nd language fluently is already quite enough.

1)   On what basis do you pass this unsubstantiated judgment?   Isn’t it apparent that by “choosing” and valuing dual-language learning for our next generation already speaks for itself??   I have high regards for English as an international language.  Saying that it doesn’t mean I have to abandon our mother tongue which is the fabric of ours lives and heritage.

2)  To spell out my point, it is to illustrate to those who so boldly denounce Chinese as a superfluous language in the business world do leverage it as an asset when they job hunt.     If people so confidently preach what they believe, they wouldn’t have even bothered to include it for its supposedly nominal value.  

The point is, you wouldn’t want to limit opportunities for yourself, so why for your children?

3)  Forget the top paying jobs.  Let’s not even assume kids can fly before they can walk.  Just open the Classified Post and see for yourself how many put proficiency in written and spoken English & Chinese (and Mandarin) as pre-requisites.    Is it so difficult to accept the fact that even if Chinese is not used in actuality, it is sought by employers in reality?

4)  If the definition of an international education is purely about getting proficient in English (and perhaps another foreign language) and to hang out amongst mainly non-Asian faces, then of course a predominant Asian community is off balance.

For me, the spirit of an international education is to teach children to empathize with people of different race, colour, language, culture, religion; and to have a broader view of the world than the things that is immediately around them.   It is without question ideal to have the entire United Nation within one roof.   However, with the proper curriculum and the right guidance, even with a handful of nationalities, I believe are able convey the spirit of internationalism.    I have already said earlier that we have to be realistic and make compromise.  The international mix and the degree of Chinese programme is inversely proportionate -  eg. CIS,SIS (dual language programme, more Chinese people), ESF (gentle programme, more balance international mix), FIS (negligible programme, relatively fewer Asians).   

Btw, I am not here to discuss SIS, and frankly I am not in the position to do so.  Personally, I value competition because it is a force that drives us forward.  How a person handles pressure and competition is all in the attitude.    So Newton your assumption on me is wrong again.   Not to sound arrogant, but competitions in local school has never been a concern to me.  If the majority of the children in HK can do it, my kid who is confident, articulate and has a very clear sharp mind will surely do fine.   I choose IS because I feel international schools can offer a more balanced curriculum and is in a better position to bring out the better in him.  I like to see him enjoy school life and love learning.  I personally don’t agree with the excessive grilling that some of the top (or even average) schools put upon children, which in my opinion defeats the meaning of education and spoils the interest in learning.   Also, I am not confident that the quality of teachers is consistent.  That’s the reasons.   

5)  What makes you think I (or any parents who value Chinese language) “blindly” follow anyone?

Isn’t that obvious that there are schools full of parents (“professionals” or otherwise) who have opted bi-lingual programme.   Do you honestly think the majority is just sheep following the herd?  That they don’t for a moment weigh out the pros and cons of different curricula, school culture, teaching approach, and how education impacts the future of their kids?

6)  You obviously oppose to people who ‘decide’ for their children that Chinese is a language they should learn in IS.      

Anyway, all the arguments have been succinctly stated by the BK participants so I won’t bother to repeat.   For better or worse reasons, we parents only have the best of intentions for our children.   I don’t see how my child can be truly deemed competent and confident if he doesn’t even have a fundamental mastery of his own mother tongue.  A Hong Kong Chinese who can’t even read a Chinese newspaper is a joke to me.

JJsMama

Newton

I find it quite amusing that you have to resort to derogatory speculation just to make yourself feel you win the argument.  If you like to do it that way, be my guest, take the floor, have the last words.   It is no longer a constructive debate.  It is totally meaningless for me to even waste another ounce of my time to entertain your pathetic remarks.

You obviously had a very miserable 15 years of HK education to take such a radical view on Chinese and people's ability in general.   I of course would never be able to relate to you as I've managed to do 3 languages including all the regular subjects, plus swimming and atheletics training, piano and community work, AND still stay optimistic with the Chinese language.  But, of course, you will argue I am not representative of the general population.