真道並非authorized IB school, 高中無可能考到認可IB証書??????IB authorizatio

cow

I agree that it takes lots of resources and preparations to be authorized by the IBO. However, since Logos currently does not have students in the Diploma level and it takes about 2 years to be authorized (info got from the web), it is not the right time for Logos to put too much effort on this issue.

I am one of Logos' parents. If Logos can successfuly offer the IBD course. I don't think it's necessary for my kid to take the future HK university entrance examination.

Below is some information I got from the web:
[url=www.cpec.ca.gov/HigherEdUpdates/Update19[99/UP99-5.asp]www.cpec.ca.gov/HigherEdUpdates/Update19[99/UP99-5.asp[/url]
Schools must be authorized by the International Baccalaureate Organization to offer the International Baccalaureate curriculum and administer the examinations. The approval process takes about two years and can cost from $20,000 to $100,000 for training, material, and equipment. The start-up process includes a formal application and consultation with a regional IBO representative, completion of an in-depth self-study, an on-site inspection visit, and the submission of written documentation to IBO headquarters in Switzerland. Schools are reevaluated every five years in order to maintain their authorization to offer the IB curriculum. In order to receive authorization, schools must be prepared to offer an adequate range of courses in the core subject areas, demonstrate adequate fiscal and human resources to support the program, and provide evidence that they will be able to sustain an adequate enrollment in the program. Although the IBO does not require schools to offer pre-IB courses, most schools find it necessary to prepare students for the IB curriculum by offering pre-IB honors level courses to students in grades nine and ten. Teachers must participate in specialized and ongoing training in order to teach in the IB program. The integrated nature of the curriculum requires well-trained teachers who collaborate with each other and district and site administrators who are committed to program ideals.

cow

自我是人類的一種通病:

自我就是一切以自己為中心，相信自己的所見所聞，相信自己的經驗，相信自己的判斷，相信自己的決定。用自己的觀點、角度去看問題，心中只有自己，完全沒有別人。自己的一切都是對的，別人的一切都是錯的，別人的意見根本聽不進去。從來沒有仔細冷靜地分析別人的意見、觀點、角度以及高明之處，這是人類的一種通病。

[http://www.hkbuddhist.org/magazine/474/474_07.html]

cow

英基於今年(2004年)才決定旗下的部分學院轉用大學預科國際會考文憑課程 (IBD)，預計2007學年升讀第十二班的學生已可開始採用IB課程，所以不要再批評真道現在並不是一所authorized IB school 了！

( 星 島 日 報 報 道 )

英 基 學 校 協 會 旗 下 的 South Island School （ 南 島 學 校 ） 將 繼 英 基 沙 田 學 院 後 ， 於 二 ○ ○ 七 年 高 中 時 轉 用 大 學 預 科 國 際 會 考 文 憑 課 程 (IB) ， West Island School （ 西 島 學 校 ） 亦 正 研 究 是 否 加 入 。

　 　 南 島 學 校 校 長 John Wray 表 示 ， 由 於 英 國 高 考 制 度 將 會 改 革 ， 前 途 未 卜 ， 加 上 學 校 希 望 學 生 有 較 闊 的 升 學 選 擇 ， 故 該 校 在 五 月 決 定 轉 用 較 為 國 際 化 的 IB 課 程 ， ○ 七 學 年 升 讀 第 十 二 班 的 學 生 開 始 採 用 IB 課 程 ， ○ 八 學 年 學 生 首 次 參 加 IB 試 。

cow

可有發覺真道的家長好像愈來愈少在這裡留言？原因可能是因為很容易受到攻擊吧！
像 RST 的文章只表達了其囡囡很喜歡上學和能主動學習，但也受到強烈的批評:
eg: You better have an open mind and talk more to the people around you to find out the proper development of young children.

"有信心咪讀囉! 無信心咪唔好讀囉!"這句話除了語氣之外，我並不覺得有什何問題，有信心唔一定是好宗教，信心的背後可能還有很多資料研究，做什麼事情都要有信心，如果無信心作為基礎，就很難會取得成功，我們要有信心,才能成事，如果對學校沒有信心，就真的不要讓自己的孩子在那裡就讀。

LungWai:
But the priority has to be set first. Is happiness your ultimate priority for your kid? Or is happiness just a by-product of a well-balanced education that your child is having. If the former is the case, then you are right.

可能LungWai並不認識真道的家長，我和我太太所認識的真道家長真的很多是把愉快學習放在選校的首幾位，而我是把它放在首位，况且愉快學習跟其它條件唔一定是有牴觸的，正所謂可以做到"有效地愉快學習"！

書名 ：Help! For Preschoolers
作者 ：Constance Carpenter Gagnon
推介人：陳慧貞姑娘

對於「勤有功，戲無益」和「讀書時讀書，遊戲時遊戲」這兩句話，各位同事一定很熟悉了，但有時候其實戲亦可有益，遊戲時亦可學習呢！
    相信身為老師的你，必定時刻?著如何能「教到最好」而搞盡腦汁。可是你們曾否?著如何能令學生「學到最好」而想過呢？
    在我以往四年的大學訓練裡，無論是從文獻記載或是從講師、臨床督學的教導中，都經常強調兒童最佳的學習效果是透過遊戲達到的，即所謂 "learning through play"。
    若果你想嘗試在傳統的以教師?中心的教學方法（teacher-oriented approach）中，加入以兒童?中心的教學方法（child-oriented approach），想嘗試一下以輕鬆有趣的遊戲作為教學活動，你可以從這本書找到靈感。它記載了多種遊戲活動可讓語文科、數學科和感知科等老師參考，這些活動都十分適合中度組或低年班學生的能力。
    這本書篇幅不多,文字淺顯，又十分實際（practical），因此值得大家一看。

cow

LungWai: And BTW, my point is not whether activity-based learning is good or not. My point is, as the title suggests, this approach is NOT IB based curriculum.

Let's come back to the discussion related to the topic. As I know Logos is not providing or has not yet planned to provide the IBO's Primary Years Programme (PYP), for students aged 3 to 12. It has only planned to provide the IBO’s Diploma Programme which is a demanding pre-university course of study that leads to examinations. It is designed for highly motivated secondary school students aged 16 to 19. [ref: www.ibo.org]

I have no idea whether activity-based learning  is IBO based curriculum or not. Even if this is not, what's the problem that Logo's primary school takes the activity-based learning approach?

cow

Philipwhau: If Logos is planning to provide the International Baccalaureate (IB) Diploma like Li Po Chun United World College of Hong Kong, I am interested in knowing the progress that Logos has done so far to obtain the authorization from IBO for higher form students?

I don't know why you gugs keep on asking similar questions about the progress that Logos has done so far to obtain the authorization from IBO.
Principal Yau did answere the question to logos parents during a morning meeting. I also tried to answer the question under this topic using my limited knowledge. Here summaries what I said before:

[All are based on my own knowledge]
- Logos intended to let it's current primary school students to take the IBD. [The current secondary school students will take the local HK examinations.]
- It takes only 3 to 4 years time for a school to prepare for the IBD, right now it's too early for Logos to put too much effect on this.

Please also note that the IBO's Primay Years Program (PYP) serves as an excellent introduction to the Middle Years Programme (MYP), but it is not a prerequisite for this or for the Diploma Programme (DP).[ref: ibo.org]

cow

Sorry for my poor English that confused some of those non-Logos parents.

Let me repeat again:

As I know Logos is not providing or has not yet planned to provide the IBO's Primary Years Programme (PYP) [PYP is targeted for students aged 3 to 12]

Logos intended to let it's current primary school students [now studying P1-P3 and the future primary students at Logos]to take the IBO's Diploma Programme (DP), that is 9 years later properly in 2013."

It has only planned to provide the IBO's Diploma Programme (DP) (The DP is designed for highly motivated secondary school students aged 16 to 19).

IBO's Primary Years Programme (PYP) is not a prerequisite for the IBO's Diploma Programme (DP)

「為什麼看見弟兄眼中有刺，卻不想自己眼中有梁木呢？」──聖經

cow

I said properly in 2013 which is the estimated year that current P3 students to take the IBO's Diploma Program Examination.

Philipwhau:
what Principal Yau said: "It takes only 3 to 4 years time for a school to prepare for the IBD, right now it's too early for Logos to put too much effect on this."

This was not said by Principal Yau, this was said by me.

Philipwhau:
在Website 所看到的好像真道現在已提供IB 課程

Judy: 04-09-08 12:22
不過，在IB課程上，真道倒說得清楚：即頭八年是真道自己的課程，最後三年的課程才准備考IB試

cow

龔家長: 聽聞你個仔都讀緊 IB wor。
羅家長: 唔系，佢將來應該會考 IB Diploma，但系而家唔系讀緊 IB 。

龔家長: 佢間學校又話有 IB 讀 ，而家仲未系 IB authorized 嘅學校。
羅家長: 仲有成 9 年先考 IB Diploma，間學校唔使咁快申請做 IB authorized 嘅學校。

龔家長: 佢間學校做左咩野準備做 IB authorized 嘅學校 ?
羅家長: 而家仲系太早做準備，間學校又未有高年級既中學生。

龔家長: 佢間學校做左咩野準備做 IB authorized 嘅學校 ?
羅家長: 申請做 IB authorized 既學校大約要2年，3到 4年既時間做準備應該差不多吧！

龔家長: 申請做 IB authorized 嘅學校好難嘅wor，我個仔間學校花左好多人力物力做準備，你個仔間學校得唔得呀? 如果唔得點算呀，我睇你個仔間學校既web site好似而家提供緊 IB課程咁。
羅家長: 龔兄，點解你只系見到小弟眼中嘅刺，而見唔到自己眼中嘅梁木呢 ?  

cow

Philipwhau兄,

Your son's school is providing PYP course and the school is not an IBO authorized school now. But nobody queries about it. The school said it would be authorized in next year. That's very good. I just congradulate about it.

My son will study the IBO's diploma course at least 7 years later. Should I worry that his school is currently not an IBO authorized school ?
[為什麼看見弟兄眼中有刺，卻不想自己眼中有梁木呢？]

In overall, I am satisfied with Logos although I prefer the school to have more Native English Speaking Teachers and to use Putonghua to teach Chinese. If 6 to 7 years later I found that Logos is not possible to provide the IBO's DP I will properly discuss with my son to see if he wants to change to another school that lead him to take the DP.

You said: "似乎反方提出很多有力例証"
I just can't disagree with it. I have to accept it since the discussion topic is "真道並非authorized IB school, 高中無可能考到認可IB証書??????IB authorization 好難有!最終兩頭o吾到岸???" [真理只有越辯越明]

學海無涯 ,唯勤是岸
苦海無涯 ,回頭是岸
尊重別人=尊重自己
要贏人先要贏自己

cow

I think most parents are as smart as happylife that after going through Logos web site can 理解真道的課程是分三個階段，第一階段是初小三年，第二階段是高小和初中五年，這兩個階段是用真道自己發展的校本課程，與IB課程是完全沒有關係的

「經過真道書院十一年悉心的栽培之後，可以透過大學預科國際文憑考試，及本港未來新的高中試，入讀海外或本地大學。」以上的描述，的確使人覺得真道全部十一年的課程是與IB課程有關。相信一般人都會有這樣的理解。是否誤導請各位自己下判斷吧。

"真道全部十一年的課程是否與IB課程有關 ?
In my point of view, I think the answer is YES.

The last three years curriculum will be the IB course. In these three years, students will fulfil the International Baccalaureate Diploma (IBD) requirements and prepare to participate in the IBD examination.

How about the first 8 years ?
The course is design to give students with well preparation for the IBO's Diploma Programme (DP)

Please be remined that 有關 doesn't means equal. Actually the concept and most of the subjects provided by IBO and by Logos are similar or the same. They both help to develop students' multiple intelligences.

Regarding 「問題就是讀完第三階段的課程是否肯定真的有資格及可以應付兩個不同課程的考試」I have to qutoe what Edt 兄 said before:
「大學三改四,中學需改為3+3,現行的AL試課程基本上會有很大改革,現在的高小學生及中學老師都會被影響及。IBD逐漸為人所知,和本港現推行的大小改革方向好像頗一致。將來的高中試想來不會和IBD南轅北轍吧。」
Also, nobody can 肯定 the future !

cow

Philipwhau:
我有時真是很不明白有很多真道的家長很敵對我們反對的聲音..。是否我們所講的真是沒有道理和沒有points？

有沒有道理和有沒有points就見人見智 ，但評論一定要中肯和客觀，決不能「只許洲官放火,不許百性點燈」

「言行表裏要一致，責人律己要同調」
「寬以律己，寬以待人」
  而非「嚴以待人，寬以律己」
  亦無須「嚴以律己，寬以待人」，

cow

Below are the comments to Logos that I saw in this topic. I added some more comments. Also, I am not able to include all the comments and the classifications of the comments may not be the orginal ideas of the orginal autures. Please correct me if I mis-understood what you said.

Negative Comments
1. IB
1.1 真道並非authorized IB school (lulukkkzzz)
[Application for IBD 有甚麼難處?若只inspect教師團隊及學校課程,相信一點也不難 - EdT]
[Logos will only provide IBO's Diploma course several years later-cow]
1.2 人家要用5至6年時間先可以叫學生完成IB Middle Years Programm。Mr. Yau 拍心口用3年就可以！得唔得架？(Philipwhau)
[真道並無提供IB Middle Years Programm]
1.3 Logos can't show enough resources to employ enough native English and Mandarin
speaking teachers in order to meet the IBO's language policies.(Philipwhau)
[I think resources are not the issue]
1.4 假如真道不能在2013[2010]提供IB DP課程，現在這批小二[小三]學生就會出現課程函接的問題。(Philipwhau)[不要那麽卑觀]

2. 丘校長
2.1 Mr. Yau just speaks the beautiful slogans (Philipwhau)
[He has done so many things for the school, I just appreciate him]
2.2 校長用過多時間接見準小一家長，餘下用於學校的大少 (Judy)
[接見每位準小一家長只發生在頭兩年，現在已不同了。]
2.3 [只]對校長有信心.真的好宗教. (tobyyes2003)
[真道家長對校長有信心不是盲目的，真道家長跟校長和學校老師都有很多溝通機會，明白學校的方向]
2.4 對個人崇拜的行為是相當危險的，邱校長現在已五十多歲，他最終會有離開真道的一日。(Philipwhau)
[邱校長如果萬萬一基於某種原因離開真道，真的會對真道做成影響，正如一間企業的CEO對公司的影響是非常之大。]

3. Website
3.1 務虚 (Judy, Philipwhau)
3.2 全篇是形容詞,就連圖片也不能反映學校之一些點滴。空洞得令人吃惊 (Judy)
3.3 在Website 所看到的好像真道現在已提供IB課程。(Philipwhau, Enchante)
[可能我已知道IBD是什麽，所以從一開始看它的Website也不覺得真道會提供或正在提供PYP和MYP課程。我奉勸各位準小一家長盡可能参加心怡小學的小一入學簡介會，對學校課程可多作了解。]

4. 語文
4.1 Not confident in Logos' language policies (Philipwhau)
4.2 不認同真道現時在小學推行之語文政策(Philipwhau)
4.3 學生的英文及普通話能力差異很大。(Philipwhau 朋友)
4.4 Not Enough Native English-speaking Teachers (cow)
4.5 P1-P3 do not use Putonghua to teach Chinese Language (cow)
[真道P1-P3是有普通話課的]
[可能真道覺得P4才用普通話全面教中文比較好，和在P4才引入多些NET，但我個人覺得在P1最遲在P2要實行]

5.其他
5.1 真道現時的資源很難在三五七年內做到丘校長所講的理想 (Philipwhau)
[資源倒不成問題。丘校長所講的理想確實不易做到，三五七年內也許不能成為與世界各地優秀學府相比的學校，但要成為一所受家長歡迎、受學生愛載的學校可能已經做到，希望真道和其他好些香港的學校，包括大、中、小學有朝一日都可以成為世界一流的學府]
5.2 There are so many things uncertain (song)
[We should let our kids to take challenges. Anyway, life is full of uncertainties]
5.3  It is not easy to find a traditional primary school to receive a pupil who's studied Logo's for more than one year. (Enchante)
[I don't think so. By the way, there are still quite a number of non-traditional primary schools in HK]
5.4 讀完第三階段的課程是否肯定真的有資格及可以應付兩個不同課程的考試。(lulukkkzzz,so.san happylife)
[大學三改四,中學需改為3+3,現行的AL試課程基本上會有很大改革,現在的高小學生及中學老師都會被影響及。IBD逐漸為人所知,和本港現推行的大小改革方向好像頗一致。將來的高中試想來不會和IBD南轅北轍吧。- EdT]
[IB Diploma 可以用作申請本地大學，若真的不能應付未來的本地大學入學試，亦不成問題 , I just want to know how many parents prefer Logos to provide IB Diploma or IBD plus 未來的本地大學入學試課程,
I prefer Logos to provide IBD only - cow]

Neutral
N1 真道不只對小朋友要求高,對家長亦一樣,要求自律,自省,自學 (didima)
N2 如自問沒有質素的與子女相處,就不要報真道了 (didima)
N3 邱校長確實要求家長對子女的教育有很大的commitment。(Philipwhau)
N4 真道之Website描述，的確使人覺得真道全部十一年的課程是與IB課程有關
N5 有四位博士級老師，還有些老師現正修讀博士課程。(rst)
[我巴它放在這裹因有人覺得是好也有人覺得是壞]
N6 如果家長無能為力是否不要考慮真道? (tobyyes2003)

Positive

1. 課程
1.1 一條龍的中小學課程 (cow)
1.2 學生在最後三年的課程,將會完成全球(當然包括香港)公認的大學預科國際文憑課程。(cow)
1.3 可以提前一到兩年的時間入讀大學。(cow)
1.4 課程是参考世界各地的課程而編定的。(cow)

2. 丘校長
2.1 邱校長擁有老子般的思想,很勁 (didima)
2.2 對丘校長有信心,例如他曾將一間藉藉無名的中學,在他領導下成為一所band one的中學(didima)
2.3 丘校長的辦學理念是很好的 (jimmywai)
2.4 丘校長會談中、他給我的印象是一位很堅持個人理念和自信甚高的教育工作者。他是直得別人尊重的。 (Philipwhau)
2.5 丘校長不單可以以校長的身份，更可以以家長的身份教我們怎樣教導孩子。(cow)
2.6 教育經驗豐富。

3. 教師
3.1 聽說請了很多高薪名師，應不會太差吧！(Judy)
3.2 好的師資質數,100%學位教師 (rst)
3.3 教師經常参加教師交流會和到外地考擦。(cow)
3.4 有些真道教師的子女都是讀真道的,証明他們對學校的認同。(cow)
3.5 好多老師都有十年以上經驗。

4. 學生
4.1 能主動學習(rst,babe04)
[能主動學習" is the basic property of children, there is nothing peculiar about that - LungWai]
4.2 會很快樂 (rst, jimmywai,babe04)

5.其他
5.1 教育工作者,都推介真道 (didima)
5.2 對學校整體上滿意 (cow)
5.3 教材豐富和有趣 (rst)
[沒有一問小學是不豐富和有趣的-jimmywai]

cow

From FAQ at www.ibo.org
Can any student enroll in an IB programme?
Only students enrolled in an IBO-authorized school may participate in an IB programme.

I don't know whether a will-be-authorized school can claim that it's providing the IB program.

I would like to raise some more questions here:
1. Could Logos recruit Native English Speaking Teachers and Native Putonghua Speaking Teachers to teach its future IB Diploma course ?
2. Does Logos really not have enough resources to recruit enought NET and DPT for the IBD?
(New DSS school has got HK government susidized for about $21000 per student each year. The school fee for Logos' IBD will be properly more than $30000 per year based on current living standard)
3. Can Cantonese used to teach as the first language for IBD ?
4. Can Cantonese used to teach as the second language for IBD ?
5. When IBO accesses the IBD program, will it also access the qualifications of the teachers not related to the IBD program (eg: the current teachers who teach the foundation [primay] years students) ?

cow

這裏的討論好像是永不會停止的，除非啊cow肯承認:
- 真道七年後是辨不成IB Diploma課程的了！
為什麽？
- 因為真道在幾年後沒有資源聘請以英語為母語及以普通話為母語的教師給IBD課程。
- 因為它現在的小學沒有足夠以英語為母語的教師及以普通話為母語的教師。
- 因為要成為IBO authorized school 是非常非常之難，只有極之頂級的學府方可辨到。

我在這裹寫首詩
媽媽經常話我知
做人不要太自私
P Y P 與  I B D
跟本就系兩回事
申請  IB 不容易
但非一件絕難事
真道辦不成 IB
他校也沒什好處
人地冇話唔可以
齊齊應考 IB 試
何必推己往高處
踩人踩上心口處
原來佢想講你知
維記鮮奶好味D

cow

( 星 島 日 報 2003年報道 )
身 為 英 國 巴 庫 大 學 教 育 系 教 授 、 國 際 大 學 預 科 文 憑 組 織 國 際 教 育 組 監 督 及 術 科 部 主 管 的 Jeff Thompson 教 授 昨 日 出 席 耀 中 教 育 機 構 舉 辦 的 國 際 教 育 研 討 會 後 表 示 ， 有 三 十 五 年 歷 史 的 IB 課 程 在 全 球 有 很 高 的 認 受 性 ， 就 連 英 國 、 澳 洲 、 美 國 及 紐 約 的 大 學 都 認 同 這 個 課 程 。

他 澄 清 不 少 人 都 誤 解 教 授 IB 課 程 一 定 是 國 際 學 校 的 專 利 ， 事 實 上 ， 在 教 授 IB 課 程 的 學 校 中 ， 五 成 五 為 地 區 （ local ） 學 校 ， 而 非 國 際 學 校 。

cow

Currently most HK AL students study non-language subjects by English. I can't see any problems for HK students to take the IB Diploma in English. To use Putonghua to study one of the language subjects for the IBD is also not difficult for the curent HK primary students as all of them are studying Putonghua. Furthermore, Logos will use Putonghua only to teach Chinese Language beginning at the the Development Stage.

I also doubt that whether Cantonese can be used to teach Chinese. I saw one school (Sir Winston Churchill High School in Alberta, Canada) providing Cantonese as an option to teach Chinese for the IBD.
http://schools.cbe.ab.ca/b857/special/ib.html

不可人雲亦雲，要道聽不途說！

cow

I agree with Judy that 政府資助 $30000-$40000 + 學費 ($30000-$40000) = ($60000+$80000) should be enough for the IBD course.

cow

2001-2002,教育署直資計畫下的每名中一學生每年津貼額為31,158元.

Yes, I think the government will continuely subsidize not less than $30000 (based on current value) for local DSSs for the next 10 years. In overall, government actually pays less money to DSS schools than to subsidized schools.

You may think that $60000-$80000 is a small amount. However, I think $60000-$80000 is enough to provide a IBD course.

cow

The calculation is based on 經常開支. Government pays for 非經常開支 for subsidized schools is higher than DSS although DSS can also apply for some 非經常開支 susidize.
eg:
- Housing loan
- Computer, equipment, furniture improvement
- Teachers training
- Fat chicken ...

About the calculation of 經常開支 for subsdized schools. I also feel (just my impression) that it's based on the number of students can be offered by the subsidized schools but not based on the actual number of students.