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標題: Seeking advice on transferring my boy from a local school to an IS [打印本頁]

作者: Spiderdodo 時間: 15-9-16 16:31 標題: Seeking advice on transferring my boy from a local school to an IS

Long story short, my boy was born in the year end of 2006, going to a P4 class of a government subsidized local school now. We are thinking of transferring him to an IS. I've done some research online and have narrowed down my targets to two primal choices (ESF Shatin Junior and CAIS). I know there are knowledgeable and experienced parents here who could probably give me advice on:
1) In terms of increasing the chance of getting a seat, should we apply Year 6 for the enrollment of 2016/2017 or or Year 7 of 2017/2018 school year? In either case, when should we submit our application?

2) Any good advice or strategies would be much appreciated.

We are HK citizens without foreign passports, living in Shatin.

Any comments are welcome.

作者: rakui 時間: 15-9-16 17:07 標題: 回覆：Spiderdodo 的帖子

Shatin college had a very outstanding IB result this year, but I guess there are long wait lists across all ESF schools.

作者: Spiderdodo 時間: 15-9-16 17:23

回覆 rakui 的帖子

Tks for your response which I take as "Don't bother to apply! You will waste your time and money!" Unless someone else has a different view, I'll take yours as a valuable advice. Thanks anyway.

作者: Radiomama 時間: 15-9-16 17:32

Spiderdodo 發表於 15-9-16 16:31
Long story short, my boy was born in the year end of 2006, going to a P4 class of a government subsi ...

For Shatin residents, you could try Shatin College, RCHK and ICA for year 7. Chance is there, don't hesitate!

Be prepared as English & Maths will be tested.

作者: charlieau 時間: 15-9-16 17:42

just go try, there is no harm for trying.
no need to put pressure on yourself/son.

作者: Spiderdodo 時間: 15-9-17 11:05

回覆 Radiomama 的帖子

Thanks for your response! Year 7 is for those who were born in 2005 and for Year 1 and Year 7, the deadline for application is end of this month. I am just wondering if I should apply for Year 6 then, which is like a General Application that is open for any time of the year. Do you have any idea how it works?

作者: Radiomama 時間: 15-9-17 11:34

Spiderdodo 發表於 15-9-17 11:05
回覆 Radiomama 的帖子

Thanks for your response! Year 7 is for those who were born in 2005 and for ...

I mean Year 7 of 2017/2018 school year.

For Year 6, the chance is slim but you can still make a try. Treat it as an exercise.

作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 15-9-17 12:35

本帖最後由 FattyDaddy 於 15-9-17 12:36 編輯

Spiderdodo 發表於 15-9-17 11:05
I am just wondering if I should apply for Year 6 then ...

Year 7 is a mass intake when primary school students proceed to secondary school so there will be more movements and thus more chances. Year 6 is the last year of primary school and students are unlikely to switch schools or leave so there won't be many vacancies.

作者: lui 時間: 15-9-17 14:55 標題: 引用：回覆+Radiomama+的帖子 Thanks+for+your+r

原帖由 Spiderdodo 於 15-09-17 發表
回覆 Radiomama 的帖子

Thanks for your response! Year 7 is for those who were born in 2005 and for ...

If I were u , I will go ahead for year 6, if a place is not given, then year 7. ( ESF confirmed one should reapply if they apply for secondary).

作者: Spiderdodo 時間: 15-9-17 15:12

回覆 FattyDaddy 的帖子

I see. I thought it was the other way around; i.e., students graduating from P1 are flocking to apply Y7 of IS or other private schools. I was thinking that some students might leave at any grade, Y6 for instance, due to relocation or other mobility reasons.

作者: oooray 時間: 15-9-17 16:10 標題: 回覆：Spiderdodo 的帖子

U are right. Students in any year will leave the school by different reasons.
Theoretically, there will be spaces available in every year. ESF schools have detailed statistics in their annual report.
Practically, most schools have been accumulating a long queue (since Year 1) of waitlist.
In fact, some parents will hestitate to change after their children have settled down in other schools for years.
As suggested by other parents, therevis no harm to act immediately. The worst scenario is merely waste the application for nothing.

作者: caa 時間: 15-9-17 16:19

If you apply there is chance. If not apply there is no chance. If fail y6, then apply y7 next year. Why need to ask???

作者: Spiderdodo 時間: 15-9-17 16:22

oooray 發表於 15-9-17 16:10
U are right. Students in any year will leave the school by different reasons.
Theoretically, there w ...

Got it! I think I'll give it a shot anyway. However, the worst scenario is not about losing the application fee (HKD 2,000 which is not cheap btw), but we are quite determined to transfer him to an IS, a reputable one hopefully. For this ESF application, I feel totally off control. All we can do is wait, and by the time we find out that the app is not successful, it will probably be another year gone, which is frustrating. Any suggestions for me?

作者: Spiderdodo 時間: 15-9-17 16:29

caa 發表於 15-9-17 16:19
If you apply there is chance. If not apply there is no chance. If fail y6, then apply y7 next year. ...

I understand that but I need to seek advice on the best strategies that would help me with increasing the chance of successfully securing a space, hoping that other experienced and knowledgeable parents here can give me some guidance or tips, for example timing, school backups, cycles, criteria, etc..

作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 15-9-17 16:31

Spiderdodo 發表於 15-9-17 15:12
students might leave at any grade, Y6 for instance ...

It is true that if students are going to leave (say they're going to another country), they could leave at any grade, but nowadays the majority of IS students are from local families (albeit with foreign passport), and typically don't want to switch schools in the last year. HK is geographically small and moving house usually don't require a school switch.

In any case, no harm in applying for Year 6 now, and if your child is unlucky then try Year 7 later.

作者: oooray 時間: 15-9-17 16:48 標題: 回覆：Spiderdodo 的帖子

If $ is not an issue, think about nomination right if applying ESF.

Amongst different schools in ESF, the waiting time does vary.
Someone claims they did not need to wait too long for a place but i did wait for 20 months (with silbling priority) before an interview could be offered.

作者: Spiderdodo 時間: 15-9-17 17:11

oooray 發表於 15-9-17 16:48
If $ is not an issue, think about nomination right if applying ESF.

Amongst different schools in ES ...

$ is an issue or we wouldn't have put him to the local system in the first place. I don't think i'll go for the nomination right. Tks for your information, 20 month waiting time with sibling priority!

That sounds really depressing!

作者: Spiderdodo 時間: 15-9-17 17:12

FattyDaddy 發表於 15-9-17 16:31
It is true that if students are going to leave (say they're going to another country), they could le ...

True!

作者: c200 時間: 15-9-17 17:23

Anyway your kid must pass the interview test first, otherwise just a dream!

作者: birdbird 時間: 15-9-17 17:59 標題: 引用：Quote:原帖由+Spiderdodo+於+15-09-17+發表

原帖由 lui 於 15-09-17 發表
If I were u , I will go ahead for year 6, if a place is not given, then year 7. ( ESF confirmed one ...

I share the same view. Perhaps, y5 for 2015/16 is also an option.

作者: nintendo 時間: 15-9-17 19:16

本帖最後由 nintendo 於 15-9-17 19:18 編輯

Unless you are applying for Year 1 or Year 7, applications to ESF is accepted year round. The situation is not as bad as some people always say on EK. Just apply and see how it goes.
The same strategy would do for other international schools. Just apply and see.
As you are in Shatin, you should also consider ICS HLY and may be even JIS. I am not very update with application procedure. But these are all good or at least decent schools.
I know some people prefer ESF for various reasons, but other international schools have also had students able to go to very good universities. No need to be too obsessed.
It is sometimes very unrealistic to be too picky, to be honest.
Regarding the age requirements, refer to the official website. http://www.esf.edu.hk/policy2013

作者: bomani 時間: 15-9-17 21:07

nintendo 發表於 15-9-17 19:16
Unless you are applying for Year 1 or Year 7, applications to ESF is accepted year round. The situat ...

Very true.

作者: Activehealth 時間: 15-9-17 21:28

Spiderdodo 發表於 15-9-16 16:31
Long story short, my boy was born in the year end of 2006, going to a P4 class of a government subsi ...

My boy just started Year 7 in ESF secondary school. In last 2 terms in Year 6 ESF primary, he had few new classmates from local schools and other international schools, even in the last month of Year 6.
My boy's friend form a local school applied for place in year 6 in January got a call from the school in April to have the interview in the view of entering in May, just 2 months before the end of the school year. The boy passed the interview but declined the place as ESF could not guarantee him a place in Year 7, as he entered in the last term of Year 6. But ESF promised to put the students in such cases in the top of the list for admission to Year 7.

Obviously, some one else took the place. All new kids just moved to Year 6 in the last 2 terms managed to move to Year 7 with my boy with no problems. Actually, they have more places in Year 7 than the total number of students from the feeder primary schools. It means that they have to take many non ESF students to fill up their places in Year 7.

To maximise your boy's chance of getting into ESF school, put his name down for Year 6 in 2016/7 and try to get in even in the last term. If it's not successful, apply for Year 7 in 2017/8 then.

Good luck!

作者: lovelyJade 時間: 15-9-17 22:33

Spiderdodo 發表於 15-9-17 17:11
$ is an issue or we wouldn't have put him to the local system in the first place. I don't think i'l ...

My girl was born in 2006 too, and i hv just done transferring her from local sch to esf year 5 few weeks ago. I hv called SJS before, for y5 this year, the queue was about 3x long, no way you can get a place this year. I didnt applied this one in the end. The strategy is call the esf schs that you want and find out how long is the queue, see if you can borrow someones address for application. There is still space in peak sch and kennedy sch earlier.

作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 15-9-18 02:34

lovelyJade 發表於 15-9-17 22:33
borrow someones address for application...

I've heard ESF has become more strict this year regarding proof of residential address, they're asking for two proof of address documents, a stamped copy of tenancy or purchase agreement plus a utility bill or bank statement ...

http://www.esf.edu.hk/policy2013#4.

作者: lovelyJade 時間: 15-9-18 07:36

FattyDaddy 發表於 15-9-18 02:34
I've heard ESF has become more strict this year regarding proof of residential address, they're aski ...

Yes, true. New policy for this year

作者: Radiomama 時間: 15-9-18 08:04 標題: 引用：Quote:Spiderdodo+發表於+15-9-17+17:11+$+

原帖由 lovelyJade 於 15-09-17 發表
My girl was born in 2006 too, and i hv just done transferring her from local sch to esf year 5 few w ...

It's not a matter of 'borrow', it's cheating.

作者: Spiderdodo 時間: 15-9-18 09:40

nintendo 發表於 15-9-17 19:16
Unless you are applying for Year 1 or Year 7, applications to ESF is accepted year round. The situat ...

Thanks for your input which I find very useful!

作者: random_dad 時間: 15-9-18 09:41

本帖最後由 random_dad 於 15-9-18 09:43 編輯

Spiderdodo 發表於 15-9-17 16:22
Got it! I think I'll give it a shot anyway. However, the worst scenario is not about losing the ap ...

If you don't mind spending the $1500 application fee for CAIS, I'd suggest you try. There's a bit "more control" in the sense that you would know fairly quickly. Applications before December, interviews in January/February, and you would know within a few weeks whether your child is accepted or not (or not accepted but on waiting list). If academically your child is strong, and English is fine, there'a a reasonable chance at CAIS as it appears that the demand and attention is towards the K3 or P1 entry point. I know of a few upper primary new joins this year, including one that joined well after the school year had started. If I were you, I'd call CAIS admission and ask them what the situation was like last year at the specific grade level (i.e. whether there was a lot of people applying, how long the waiting list, etc.). They might not tell you, but it's worth a shot in asking.

I'm sure you've considered the school fees if you've named ESF and CAIS explicitly, but CAIS is significantly more than ESF, both in annual fees as well as the ICN (aka debenture) or the annual capital levy.

Also, if the Christian component is important, then CAIS would be the preferred choice. If, on the other hand, the Christian component is a negative, then ESF is better suited.

作者: Yeahp 時間: 15-9-18 09:43 標題: 回覆：Seeking advice on transferring my boy from a local school to an IS

Why don't you try applying CAIS for your kid? The school is expanding so there should have more chances for getting in at any grades

作者: Spiderdodo 時間: 15-9-18 09:44

lovelyJade 發表於 15-9-17 22:33
My girl was born in 2006 too, and i hv just done transferring her from local sch to esf year 5 few w ...

Hey, that's very helpful! Tks! I don't need to borrow any address proof though.

作者: Spiderdodo 時間: 15-9-18 09:47

Activehealth 發表於 15-9-17 21:28
My boy just started Year 7 in ESF secondary school. In last 2 terms in Year 6 ESF primary, he had fe ...

Now, that's a piece of very useful intelligence! Thank you!

作者: random_dad 時間: 15-9-18 09:52

Yeahp 發表於 15-9-18 09:43
Why don't you try applying CAIS for your kid? The school is expanding so there should have more chan ...

They're growing at the K3 and P1 intake, and they're not growing at the higher grades until the students move up naturally. For a lack of a better description, like a cow moving through a snake. So while there are 5 classes in Grade 1 (for example), there's only 4 at Grade 4 and 3 at Grade 7, which is roughly how long ago they started to increase enrollment.

作者: Spiderdodo 時間: 15-9-18 09:53

random_dad 發表於 15-9-18 09:41
If you don't mind spending the $1500 application fee for CAIS, I'd suggest you try. There's a bit ...

Yeap, CAIS has always been in my plan. Good advice on finding more about enrollment trend from the school!
I've checked both websites, and found that the fees are more or less the same. Didn't know that CAIS' were significantly higher. Maybe I should double check on that one.

作者: random_dad 時間: 15-9-18 10:02

Spiderdodo 發表於 15-9-18 09:53
Yeap, CAIS has always been in my plan. Good advice on finding more about enrollment trend from the ...

CAIS ICN @ $400k (anticipated) or $25k/year (anticipated) once the new campus is in use. School fees are roughly $30k/year more than ESF +/- depending on year.

Another note on CAIS... Because there are more passport holders, there's more of a tendency for kids to leave the school for overseas, particularly at higher grades, whether as a parent's job relocation or simply returning to their passport issuing country for further education (i.e. as an escape from the HK system). As such, my guess is the turnover at CAIS is higher than average. On the other hand, your non-passport holding status will put you in a lower priority depending on the situation.

作者: Spiderdodo 時間: 15-9-18 10:06

"CAIS ICN @ $400k (anticipated) or $25k/year (anticipated) once the new campus is in use."

I don't quite understand this part of the equation. Could you elaborate?

作者: random_dad 時間: 15-9-18 10:38

Spiderdodo 發表於 15-9-18 10:06
"CAIS ICN @ $400k (anticipated) or $25k/year (anticipated) once the new campus is in use."

I don't ...

New school campus in construction at Butterfly Valley, anticipated occupancy date 2017-2018 academic year.

Those that are current students have had a chance to purchase ICNs @ $200k or $250k depending on when they opted to purchase. New intakes will either have to purchase a refundable $400k ICN before occupancy, or be subject to a non-refundable $25k annual capital levy. ICN refundable in the year after the student leaves school or after 1st year of occupancy, at the price paid and only back to the school. Amounts are estimated, as they have not firmed on the amount, but should be reasonable close, as they've already increased the ICN significantly.

This capital amount is significantly higher than ESF. That being said, I wonder out loud how long ESF can hold their tuition and capital levy at the current levels as the government funding to them winds down. For me, that is the biggest variable for someone looking at entering ESF, because what they are committing to and anticipating in costs now may not be anywhere near the same in a few years.

作者: Spiderdodo 時間: 15-9-18 10:47

random_dad 發表於 15-9-18 10:38
New school campus in construction at Butterfly Valley, anticipated occupancy date 2017-2018 academic ...

Ic, I wonder if HK's IS school fees are among world's top.

作者: Spiderdodo 時間: 15-9-18 11:25

random_dad 發表於 15-9-18 10:38
New school campus in construction at Butterfly Valley, anticipated occupancy date 2017-2018 academic ...

I've just checked the page and still have some queries. It talks about the most recently purchased price of an ICN at HKD 250,000, but not the new intakes for HKD 400,000. I wonder, wouldn't every parent opts to purchase the ICN if the anticipated value will go higher and is totally transferable? Why would someone pay a non-refundable levy of 25K if you will finally get your money back?

作者: random_dad 時間: 15-9-22 10:37

Spiderdodo 發表於 15-9-18 11:25
I've just checked the page and still have some queries. It talks about the most recently purchased p ...

Some reasons:

- Maybe your child will be entering Grade 10 in 2017-2018 and you'll only be staying for a few years.
- Maybe you plan on moving back to overseas to continue your child's education in a few years.
- Maybe you're on an expat on a short term employment contract.
- Maybe your employer pays for your children's tuition as part of the benefits package, and corporations can only buy the CCN at a much higher price.
- Maybe you don't have $400k free cash flow.
- Maybe you are an investment expert that can earn more than $25k/year on a $400k investment (6.25% return).

Every person's situation is different. I know many parents that did not opt for the ICN.

作者: Spiderdodo 時間: 15-9-24 09:20

random_dad 發表於 15-9-22 10:37
Some reasons:

- Maybe your child will be entering Grade 10 in 2017-2018 and you'll only be staying ...

Got it! This is so informative! Thank you!

作者: Spiderdodo 時間: 15-9-24 14:17

random_dad 發表於 15-9-22 10:37
Some reasons:

- Maybe your child will be entering Grade 10 in 2017-2018 and you'll only be staying ...

Would you know the mechanism of transferring an ICN? Would there be a "trading" platform where supply meets demand? If the school continues to issue ICNs, won't there be a risk of being unable to transfer your ICN, since buyers can easily get them from school? I guess most of these questions won't get answers until further announcement by the school, right? Any ideas how things are done by schools that are issuing similar notes?

作者: random_dad 時間: 15-9-25 09:20

本帖最後由 random_dad 於 15-9-25 09:22 編輯

Spiderdodo 發表於 15-9-24 14:17
Would you know the mechanism of transferring an ICN? Would there be a "trading" platform where supp ...

There's no "trading platform" as you put it.  Every school handles debentures/capital notes differently.  With CAIS, there is no appreciation opportunity.  The only option is to sell it back to the school at the face value, and I believe less an admin fee if I remember correctly.  The school will then sell it to another interested parent at potentially another face value.

Because some of the wording is perhaps ambiguous in their documents, and the way that I interpret it is the school will only buy it back only if they can resell it.  But you can only purchase an ICN as a parent/guardian of the student, so I'm not sure if there's any possibility of the school not purchasing back the ICN from the parent when you no longer have a child in the school.  But the only reason that the school wouldn't buy back the ICN is if for some reason the school's enrollment is actually down, which I believe is rather unlikely.

The school is not going to sell "more" ICNs because they can.  Even if you wanted to purchase an ICN now as a parent, the school will not be able to sell you one.  The past two rounds are closed.  Quantities of ICNs are fixed, and any issuance of the ICNs need to be approved by the board of directors, and the funds are dedicated to the build and operation of the school.  It's not like they're a for-profit to make more money, and the school's backing and management is via KTAC.

Not trying to pick on another school, but to use Harrow as an example, the approaches of the two schools are different.  Harrow has a $3m debenture, which I'm hearing now is worth way more.  So elitist money can buy an opportunity for an interview.  Harrow also hires a professional services firm that is directly affiliated to those that are in charge of the school, so the conflict-of-interest is funneling out millions of $ to those that directly set up the school (http://www.ejinsight.com/2015012 ... gh-management-firm/), plus the school effectively pays a % royalty fee to use the Harrow name.  For me, it's hard to see it as a "not-for-profit" which it is registered as.

Contrast this to CAIS, where it's controlled by KTAC (a true not-for-profit), with a long history of charitable work in HK.  The ICNs are not available to trade on the private market, so it's a much more level playing field for the kids to get into because it keeps the speculators and opportunists away.  As a non-profit, there's no reason for them to sell more ICNs unless there's an actual need, and once's the school is built, unless there's expansion, I would believe it to be unlikely they'll sell more ICNs.

作者: Spiderdodo 時間: 15-9-29 10:42

random_dad 發表於 15-9-25 09:20
There's no "trading platform" as you put it. Every school handles debentures/capital notes differe ...

I see. I think the school could be more transparent on how their ICN works, which will help parents with making better decisions.

作者: random_dad 時間: 15-9-29 12:10

本帖最後由 random_dad 於 15-9-29 12:13 編輯

Spiderdodo 發表於 15-9-29 10:42
I see. I think the school could be more transparent on how their ICN works, which will help parents ...

http://www.cais.edu.hk/school-expansion/funding/

It's reasonably clear, except for the part about only transferring back to the school (no appreciation possibility) and the future price, and they've stated it'll be higher. I guess they can be more clear as to how much higher ($400k), but because the next set is not firm in price, I guess they feel they can't suggest a value. Kind of caught in a bad position until the next set of ICNs are set in price.

I guess since the ICNs aren't mandatory (option for annual levy), and can only be purchased by already enrolled students, maybe they don't want to get into too much detail. It's fairly clear to current parents at this point.

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