教育王國

標題: 王偉雄：College 和 University的區別 [打印本頁]

作者: elbar 時間: 15-6-6 12:46 標題: 王偉雄：College 和 University的區別

自從我寫過阿樂會入讀 Williams College 後，有些朋友問我 college 和 university 的分別，有些甚至以為 college 不是大學。有見及此，決定寫一篇短文略為解釋。

首先，美國人說「上大學」一般只說「go to college」而不是「go to university」，例如「My daughter will go to college next year」；此外，大學教育一般的說法是「college education」，大學學位是「college degree」。

雖然 college 是大學，但 college 和 university 還是有分別的。Liberal arts colleges (可以譯作「文理學院」，另一較造作的翻譯是「博雅教育學院」)幾乎全是私立的，規模較小，只有一二千學生，大多只提供本科教育，少數有碩士課程，但一定沒有研究院。

還有，liberal arts college 著重通才教育，包括體育、德育、思辨能力、領導才能等，不只是傳授知識，更不會提供偏重職業技能的課程(例如會計) 。

University 分研究型和教學型，前者規模很大，有不同的研究院；頂尖的研究型大學裏，研究生的人數可以比本科生多(例如 Columbia University)。

教學型大學大多是公立的，沒有研究院，但很多都有碩士課程；教學型大學的規模比研究型的小，但比起 liberal arts college 則仍然大很多，學生至少過萬，提供的課程也較多樣化，而且肯定會包括偏重職業技能的課程。

這樣的解釋好像很清楚了，可是，不要以為名字是「university」的一定是 university，名字是「college」一定是 liberal arts college。長春藤聯盟裏的 Dartmouth College 是 university，另一名校 College of William & Mary 也是 university；Wesleyan University 是 Little Three 之一(另外兩間是 Williams College 和 Amherst College；Big Three 是 Harvard , Yale, 和 Princeton) ，名為 university，卻是一間不折不扣的 liberal arts college！

還有一點容易令人混淆的，是 university 可以由不同的 colleges 組成，例如 college of natural sciences 或 college of humanities and fine arts；有些研究型大學則將整個本科教育部份稱為 college，例如 Harvard University 裏的 Harvard College --- 在哈佛大學本科畢業，可以說「graduated from Harvard College」。

以上講的只是美國的情況，其他英語國家裏，college 和 university 的分別並不一樣。例如加拿大的 colleges 很多是職業先修學校，只頒文憑，不授學位；就算是頒授學位的，也會被認為比 university 低級。假如你在美國讀 liberal arts college，即使是最顯赫的，你那些對美國教育制度不熟悉的加拿大姨媽姑姐也可能會認為你連大學也讀不上！

作者: shadeslayer 時間: 15-6-6 17:42 標題: 引用：自從我寫過阿樂會入讀+Williams+College+後

原帖由 elbar 於 15-06-06 發表
自從我寫過阿樂會入讀 Williams College 後，有些朋友問我 college 和 university 的分別，有些甚至以為 ...

Add to this confusion is also UK universities' "colleges" which provides pastoral care to students and "university" which looks after academic side of things. You have to pay University tuition fees and college fees. Oxbridge are some of the universities who follows this tradition.

作者: slamai 時間: 15-6-7 00:32

回覆 shadeslayer 的帖子

In actual fact, colleges' tutors in Oxbridge also look after the academic progress of their students, e.g. during the tutorial sessions and giving/marking assignments.

作者: shadeslayer 時間: 15-6-7 09:06

slamai 發表於 15-6-7 00:32
回覆 shadeslayer 的帖子

In actual fact, colleges' tutors in Oxbridge also look after the academic p ...

Yes, just tutorials, and usually from students to students.

作者: ACE2126 時間: 15-6-7 19:49

提示: 作者被禁止或刪除內容自動屏蔽

作者: slamai 時間: 15-6-7 22:30

回覆 shadeslayer 的帖子

Playing down the importance of tutorials (in Oxford) / supervisions (in Cambridge) is a misconception. Tutorials / supervisions are definitely not something between students to students but are unique personalised teaching in Oxbridge's collegiate structure which are highly regarded because these tutors / supervisors are world experts in their fields. Other assessments in colleges include collections (in Oxford).

作者: shadeslayer 時間: 15-6-8 09:13 標題: 引用：回覆+shadeslayer+的帖子 Playing+down+th

原帖由 slamai 於 15-06-07 發表
回覆 shadeslayer 的帖子

Playing down the importance of tutorials (in Oxford) / supervisions (in Cam ...

I did not play down or up, just what I know. I did not say it was not useful. When I said (graduate) students giving tutorials to (undergraduate) students, it was what I saw. Graduate students can also be world experts in certain field. It was also not as "personal" like it used to be. It was one tutor to 2 students. May be the times have changed, from lecturer giving tutorials one on one to graduate students giving tutorials to students 1 to 2.

作者: slamai 時間: 15-6-8 13:58 標題: 回覆：shadeslayer 的帖子

Tutors are not graduate students in Oxbridge.

作者: shadeslayer 時間: 15-6-8 16:09 標題: 引用：Tutors+are+not+graduate+students+in+Oxbr

原帖由 slamai 於 15-06-08 發表
Tutors are not graduate students in Oxbridge.

Yours is a sweeping statement that no graduate students ever gave tutorials to undergraduate students in any college, any subject, in the history of Oxbridge. This statement cannot be right. Lets just say I have first hand information on graduate students giving tutorials for a particular college to undergraduate students many years ago in Oxford. May be it varies across different colleges at different times. But it did happen to the college I know in Oxford.

Anyway, I suspect no one here cares much about who gave the tutorials as it is neither related to the original topic, nor my first post in this thread.

作者: slamai 時間: 15-6-8 17:29

本帖最後由 slamai 於 15-6-8 17:41 編輯

回覆 shadeslayer 的帖子

I think we all make casual and generalised statements in this forum as the discussion is not meant to be formal at all. The reality is that normally an Oxbridge student will not have more than one or two PhD students as their tutor(s). The role of tutors is very important in Oxbridge. To elaborate more, the tutors are responsible for the admission interviews on behalf of the colleges. I would imagine students casually skip lectures rather than any single tutorial, if at all.

I do agree that our discussion has deviated from the original topic.

作者: shadeslayer 時間: 15-6-8 18:40 標題: 引用：+本帖最後由+slamai+於+15-6-8+17:41+編輯+

原帖由 slamai 於 15-06-08 發表
本帖最後由 slamai 於 15-6-8 17:41 編輯

回覆 shadeslayer 的帖子

It is not about formality of speech in a forum. Why did I care to respond? What does your sweeping statement make me? A liar? I know what I said was true so your statement was incorrect.

作者: slamai 時間: 15-6-8 23:52

回覆 shadeslayer 的帖子

You can go through your previous posts and find generalised statements which suffer from the disadvantage of being inaccurate ... period

作者: shadeslayer 時間: 15-6-9 00:03 標題: 引用：回覆+shadeslayer+的帖子 You+can+go+thro

原帖由 slamai 於 15-06-08 發表
回覆 shadeslayer 的帖子

You can go through your previous posts and find generalised statements whic ...

Oh you need to resort to "everybody is sinned so my sin is ok" or "everybody lied before so you have no right to accuse me of lying." kind of argument.

Great one, very strong, universal.

作者: slamai 時間: 15-6-9 00:17

回覆 shadeslayer 的帖子

Lying is intentional. I don't think anyone in this forum has any intention to lie which is of no avail. However, most of us suffer from the disadvantage of inaccurate and/or incomplete information and both of us are no exception. I'd advise you to discuss in a calmer and more harmonious manner ... period

作者: shadeslayer 時間: 15-6-9 09:14

slamai 發表於 15-6-9 00:17
回覆 shadeslayer 的帖子

Lying is intentional. I don't think anyone in this forum has any intention ...

Classic diversion tactic. When I point out your specific incorrect statement, you bring it to the general "everybody makes mistake" level. Of course everybody makes mistake. But I am not talking about everybody makes mistakes, I am talking about your specific mistake.

A lie with good intent is still a lie.
An incorrect statement without a malicious intent is still incorrect.

You can argue the mistake is not relevant to the discussion. I say your sweeping statement hurt my credibility when I know I am correct, therefore it is relevant to the discussion.

When my child makes a mistake, I told her to admit it, apologize, learn from it and move on ..... Period.

作者: DreamKid 時間: 15-6-9 13:28

elbar 發表於 15-6-6 12:46
自從我寫過阿樂會入讀 Williams College 後，有些朋友問我 college 和 university 的分別，有些甚至以為 ...

香港中學都叫 college
亦試過有朋友以為 college 係指 community college

作者: SorTo 時間: 15-6-9 15:01

本帖最後由 SorTo 於 15-6-12 18:49 編輯

回覆 slamai 的帖子

I feel sorry for you for having to discuss with someone who takes others' general statements as "sweeping statemens" but his own exception statements as general statements. If someone doesn't want to know the difference between a tutor in oxbridge and a tutor in American colleges, I suggest you let it go.

作者: shadeslayer 時間: 15-6-9 19:39

本帖最後由 shadeslayer 於 15-6-9 19:39 編輯

SorTo 發表於 15-6-9 15:01
回覆 slamai 的帖子

I feel sorry for you for having to discuss with someone who takes others' genera ...

I don't need to be explained the tutorial system in Oxford because I was there. But when I saw something inaccurate I need to point that out.

I said "Tutorials are usually students to students"

Slamai replied with "Tutors are not graduate students in Oxbridge".

If you follow the discussion and can't tell which statement is sweeping, definite and inaccurate, I have nothing to say.

作者: slamai 時間: 15-6-10 13:15

回覆 SorTo 的帖子

Thank you for your impartial comment.

作者: slamai 時間: 15-6-10 13:32

回覆 shadeslayer 的帖子

Maybe you have a lot of time to indulge in circumambulating discussion. Maybe you think mentioning having been to Oxford can increase your credibility. Maybe you have difficulties in understanding my posts and intention. But I must explain to you that my posts explaining the tutorial system in Oxbridge are intended for other users of this forum rather than explaining to someone who refuses to open one's mind.

作者: slamai 時間: 15-6-10 13:39

回覆 shadeslayer 的帖子

Did you say "just tutorials" in your post? Ever heard of "collections" as I have mentioned in one of my previous posts if you said you'd been to Oxford? Do you understand what is a sweeping statement?

作者: SorTo 時間: 15-6-10 16:14

本帖最後由 SorTo 於 15-6-10 16:15 編輯

Oxford says this in their website, "‘Tutor’ is Oxford’s name for a member of academic staff. They are often world-leading experts in their field, and tutorials are a chance to get individualised teaching from them. "

I feel muggles like us have been lied to for over all these years about the understatement of the name of an oxbridge tutor.

作者: slamai 時間: 15-6-10 18:40

回覆 SorTo 的帖子

Oxford also points out the crux in their website, i.e. "Tutorials are central to study at Oxford." Bang!

作者: shadeslayer 時間: 15-6-10 19:36 標題: 回覆：王偉雄：College 和 University的區別

本帖最後由 shadeslayer 於 15-6-10 19:38 編輯

Believe what you want to believe. There is one and only one point in this discussion. There were graduate students hired as tutors to teach undergraduates at a particular college over that period of time in Oxford, therefore the statement "Tutors are not graduate students in Oxbridge" is incorrect. Anything else is irrelevant and possibly a diversion tactic.

I don't know why I am still spending time on this topic.

作者: 永遠的零 時間: 15-6-10 20:31

提示: 作者被禁止或刪除內容自動屏蔽

作者: shadeslayer 時間: 15-6-10 20:50

永遠的零發表於 15-6-10 20:31
回覆 shadeslayer 的帖子

有人連最基本的邏輯辯証原則都未懂，竞然還夠膽出來死撐，枉有高學歷又有乜用， ...

閣下心水清。哈，佢地講咁耐也講不出我這句的弱點，卻比你點中。

作者: 小小山 時間: 15-6-10 21:36

What is college ? What is university ?

作者: slamai 時間: 15-6-11 12:23

回覆 shadeslayer 的帖子

Ha! Ha! Do you really think that I didn't know the discrepancies in your previous statements/posts?

Don't divert attention! Sounds familiar? You haven't answered my questions!

作者: slamai 時間: 15-6-11 12:52

回覆永遠的零的帖子

Maybe you are very good in Maths and want to discuss logic. However, you have totally missed the point. What you are querying my generalised statement applies similarly to what Oxford says in their website. Take a look at what SorTo quoted in his post #22.

I have explained that my statements, which also happen to most of us, may be incomplete due to generalisation. How come you said I didn't "承認那statement未夠精準"? Have you gone through the relevant posts carefully? The quality and validity of your comments is doubtful.

作者: SorTo 時間: 15-6-11 14:21

本帖最後由 SorTo 於 15-6-27 11:43 編輯

slamai 發表於 15-6-11 12:52
回覆永遠的零的帖子

Maybe you are very good in Maths and want to discuss logic. However, you have ...

That's why I said Oxford is lying according to these two guys who just choose to ignore the fact that the phase "in general" is often omitted from general statements in our daily language. According to the philosophy department of hku, in statements like"「人死不能復生。」,「人不為己，天誅地滅。」, 「男兒志在四方。」...我們對這些述句屬全稱述句(universal propositions) 還是特稱述句(particular propositions)可能並不太清楚。" If we want the readers to be sure we are making a universal proposition, we will add a determiner like "all" or "every"; this is syllogism 101. As you have not used the word "all" or "every", clearly it is only you as the writer who has the right to clarify whether you are making a universal statement or not.

However I suggest you quit a discussion you can never win with opponents who are not interested in a reasonable discussion.

歡迎光臨教育王國 (/)