教育王國
標題: 減短暑假的好處（張慧慈） [打印本頁]
作者: elbar 時間: 15-5-19 12:16 標題: 減短暑假的好處（張慧慈）
數百名學生家長為了報讀某暑期補習班，竟由清晨開始排隊。連暑期補習班都要排隊才有學位，反映不少香港人已將排隊變成習慣外，還顯示本港教育不健康的現象，正進一步拉闊貧富學生的成績。富學生可在暑假繼續補習，而貧學生放完暑假後，學業表現可能被進一步拋離，影響日後升讀大學和就業的門檻。
暑假雖然可以讓孩子在暑熱的日子享受戶外活動，平衡身心發展，可是美國有研究發現，窮學生於暑期過後，閱讀和拼寫能力都大幅下降。暑假愈長，他們就愈少看書，學習能力會不斷被削弱。
相反，來自中產或富裕家庭的孩子，除了有暑期班和興趣班打發時間外，還可以參加遊學團增廣見聞。每個暑假，窮孩子和富孩子的學習能力都被拉遠。經過十二個寒暑後，差距會更加明顯。所以政府提供十二年免費教育、書簿費和交通費津助，只可減輕學生家長的負擔，卻未能拉近富有與貧窮學生的成績和眼界視野。
其實最直接的解決方法，不是增加學生的課外活動津貼，而是減少長假期的日子。很多歐美國家開始讓學校自行決定假期的長度，不將學校假期集中在暑假和聖誕寒假，而是平均分配到各個月份中。如果香港也仿效，相信有很多家長和學生都拍手贊成，可能只有補習社和學校老師會反對。
張慧慈
作者: Jane1983 時間: 15-5-19 13:12
暑假長，會拉闊貧富學生成績，所以不如放短d暑假...
大佬，咁都寫文，吾係嘛
作者: shadeslayer 時間: 15-5-19 13:38 標題: 引用：暑假長，會拉闊貧富學生成績，所以不如放短
原帖由 Jane1983 於 15-05-19 發表
暑假長，會拉闊貧富學生成績，所以不如放短d暑假...
大佬，咁都寫文，吾係嘛 ...
作者: whywhywhywhy 時間: 15-5-19 21:14 標題: 引用：[float=left][/float]數百名學生家長為了報
原帖由 elbar 於 15-05-19 發表
數百名學生家長為了報讀某暑期補習班，竟由清晨開始排隊。連暑期補習班都要排隊才有學位，反映不少香港人 ...
作者: bookreader 時間: 15-5-20 10:35
提示: 作者被禁止或刪除 內容自動屏蔽
作者: nintendo 時間: 15-5-20 11:21
很多歐美國家開始讓學校自行決定假期的長度，不將學校假期集中在暑假和聖誕寒假，而是平均分配到各個月份中。
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完全亂佢 up，我冇朋友放短了暑假。
美國出名暑假長，鬼佬最終意去玩，有D人，請假都要去玩。
再講，如果像佢話 "平均分配" 假期去各月份，即係返學日數冇多，咁即係點？改為一星期返四日學？咁低階層又冇外傭，父母又要去打工，只會更安排唔到照顧仔女。
佢個思維都幾心地唔好。
人地負擔得起 summer program ，遊學都唔得，一於一拍兩散， 唔比你放長假，"我冇，你都冇" !
作者: Cheeselover 時間: 15-5-20 17:01 標題: 回覆：減短暑假的好處（張慧慈）
作者不知道根據邏輯什麼想出來，工人因假期心散所以無假，學生最好學習廿年無休，如果是真的，政府要開多幾間精神病院，完全不知道休息的需要。
作者: shadeslayer 時間: 15-5-20 18:38 標題: 回覆：減短暑假的好處（張慧慈）
有D人有一種思維，社會應該凡事以他們所定的公平原則運作。例如：
中產以上外國遊學盛行，全港學生也一定要外國遊學。
窮人富人入大學應該一半一半，富人孩子太叻，要設法令他們無咁叻。
作者: torunpoland 時間: 15-5-20 22:38 標題: 回覆：shadeslayer 的帖子
未知簡稱是否「左膠」？
作者: MrBeast 時間: 15-5-21 08:14
Just some counter thoughts, 個個硏究的layMan 版我看過，印象中係有實質result To show, 不過就冇好仔細去睇清楚原本件paper
作者: ANChan59 時間: 15-5-21 08:32 標題: 引用：Just+some+counter+thoughts,+個個硏究的la
原帖由 MrBeast 於 15-05-21 發表
Just some counter thoughts, 個個硏究的layMan 版我看過，印象中係有實質result To show, 不過就冇好仔細 ...
作者: MrBeast 時間: 15-5-21 08:42
回覆 ANChan59 的帖子
應是這書其中一chapter:
https://webcat.hkpl.gov.hk/lib/item?id=chamo:3182888&theme=WEB
作者: ANChan59 時間: 15-5-21 08:53 標題: 回覆：MrBeast 的帖子
Thanks.
作者: ANChan59 時間: 15-5-21 11:17
本帖最後由 ANChan59 於 15-5-21 11:21 編輯
MrBeast 發表於 15-5-21 08:42 
回覆 ANChan59 的帖子
應是這書其中一chapter:
From the writers' article ..... related to the book.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/opinion/sunday/dont-delay-your-kindergartners-start.html?_r=0
Delay Kindergarten at Your Child’s Peril
Sam Wang is an associate professor of molecular biology and neuroscience at Princeton. Sandra Aamodt is a former editor in chief of Nature Neuroscience. They are the authors of “Welcome to Your Child’s Brain: How the Mind Grows From Conception to College.”
THIS fall, one in 11 kindergarten-age children in the United States will not be going to class. Parents of these children often delay school entry in an attempt to give them a leg up on peers, but this strategy is likely to be counterproductive.
The practice, called redshirting — from the term for allowing college athletes to delay participation in sports to prolong their eligibility — also has a connection to children’s sports. As sports-minded parents know, physical maturity allows older children to perform better. Coaches often mistake this difference for natural aptitude and respond by giving the older children on their T-ball or soccer teams more opportunities to improve their skills. And those athletes tend to gain a lasting competitive advantage. Does a similar approach work for academic achievement?
Teachers may encourage redshirting because more mature children are easier to handle in the classroom and initially produce better test scores than their younger classmates. In a class of 25, the average difference is equivalent to going from 13th place to 11th. This advantage fades by the end of elementary school, though, and disadvantages start to accumulate. In high school, redshirted children are less motivated and perform less well. By adulthood, they are no better off in wages or educational attainment — in fact, their lifetime earnings are reduced by one year.
In short, the analogy to athletics does not hold. The question we should ask instead is: What approach gives children the greatest opportunity to learn?
Parents who want to give their young children an academic advantage have a powerful tool: school itself. In a large-scale study at 26 Canadian elementary schools, first graders who were young for their year made considerably more progress in reading and math than kindergartners who were old for their year (but just two months younger). In another large study, the youngest fifth-graders scored a little lower than their classmates, but five points higher in verbal I.Q., on average, than fourth-graders of the same age. In other words, school makes children smarter.
The benefits of being younger are even greater for those who skip a grade, an option available to many high-achieving children. Compared with nonskippers of similar talent and motivation, these youngsters pursue advanced degrees and enter professional school more often. Acceleration is a powerful intervention, with effects on achievement that are twice as large as programs for the gifted. Grade-skippers even report more positive social and emotional feelings.
These differences may come from the increased challenges of a demanding environment. Learning is maximized not by getting all the answers right, but by making errors and correcting them quickly. In this respect, children benefit from being close to the limits of their ability. Too low an error rate becomes boring, while too high an error rate is unrewarding. A delay in school entry may therefore still be justified if children are very far behind their peers, leaving a gap too broad for school to allow effective learning.
Parents want to provide the best environment for their child, but delaying school is rarely the right approach. The first six years of life are a time of tremendous growth and change in the developing brain. Synapses, the connections between brain cells, are undergoing major reorganization. Indeed, a 4-year-old’s brain uses more energy than it ever will again. Brain development cannot be put on pause, so the critical question is how to provide the best possible context to support it.
For most children, that context is the classroom. Disadvantaged children have the most to lose from delayed access to school. For low-income children, every month of additional schooling closes one-tenth of the gap between them and more advantaged students. Even without redshirting, a national trend is afoot to move back the cutoff birthdays for the start of school. Since the early 1970s, the date has shifted by an average of six weeks, to about Oct. 14 from about Nov. 25. This has the effect of making children who would have been the youngest in one grade the oldest in the next-lower grade; it hurts children from low-income families the most.
Some children, especially boys, are slow to mature emotionally, a process that may be aided by the presence of older children. Kindergartners show age-related differences in social acceptance and self-perceptions, but these differences usually even out by first grade. The benefits of interacting with older children may extend to empathetic abilities. Empathy requires the ability to reason about the beliefs of others. This capacity relies on brain maturation, but it is also influenced by interactions with other children. Having an older (but not younger) sibling speeds the onset of this capacity in 3- to 5-year-olds. The acceleration is large: up to half a year per sibling. Although nearly all children reach a mature level of understanding by age 6, there may be lasting social advantages to developing this ability earlier. Parents concerned about a child’s emotional maturity might consider that frequent interaction with more mature classmates could help the developmental process along.
The initial redshirt advantage may disappear because children are not on a fixed trajectory but learn actively from teachers — and classmates. It matters very much who a child’s peers are. Redshirted children begin school with others who are a little further behind them. Because learning is social, the real winners in that situation are their classmates.
*******
I am not 100% sure yet, but Ms Cheung may misinterpret the results of the two authors.
作者: caa 時間: 15-5-21 12:31
本帖最後由 caa 於 15-5-21 12:32 編輯
actually 張慧慈 is not without grounds
From Forbes.com (1/30/2014)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/nickmorrison/2014/01/30/too-much-too-soon-why-children-should-spend-more-time-playing-and-start-school-later/
...a former adviser to Prime Minister David Cameron this week called for longer school days and shorter holidays, increasing the amount of time children spend in school by two thirds.
作者: ANChan59 時間: 15-5-21 12:55 標題: 回覆：減短暑假的好處（張慧慈）
初步看了，原作者是講大B細B的優劣，而非暑期的長短！
作者: shadeslayer 時間: 15-5-21 13:57 標題: 引用：初步看了，原作者是講大B細B的優劣，而非暑
原帖由 ANChan59 於 15-05-21 發表
初步看了，原作者是講大B細B的優劣，而非暑期的長短！
作者: caa 時間: 15-5-21 14:28
ANChan59 發表於 15-5-21 12:55
初步看了，原作者是講大B細B的優劣，而非暑期的長短！
作者: ANChan59 時間: 15-5-21 14:39 標題: 回覆：caa 的帖子
Any link or source?
作者: Yanamami 時間: 15-5-21 15:07
caa 發表於 15-5-21 14:28
張慧慈的文章有說是那個研究嗎？事實英美真有人提出暑假越長對disadvantaged kids （如家境清貧）越不利， ...
作者: caa 時間: 15-5-21 15:19
本帖最後由 caa 於 15-5-21 15:21 編輯
回覆 ANChan59 的帖子
http://www.forbes.com/sites/nickmorrison/2014/01/30/too-much-too-soon-why-children-should-spend-more-time-playing-and-start-school-later/
Extract from the article:
...a former adviser to Prime Minister David Cameron this week called for longer school days and shorter holidays, increasing the amount of time children spend in school by two thirds....
作者: ANChan59 時間: 15-5-21 15:22 標題: 回覆：caa 的帖子
謝謝！
你指張小姐肯定參考這篇？
作者: caa 時間: 15-5-21 15:44
回覆 ANChan59 的帖子
I have no idea at all what she is referring to or relying on but my point is she is absolutely not the first person who suggested that long holidays prejudice disadvantaged kids.
作者: shadeslayer 時間: 15-5-21 16:23 標題: 引用：回覆+ANChan59+的帖子 I+have+no+idea+at+
原帖由 caa 於 15-05-21 發表
回覆 ANChan59 的帖子
I have no idea at all what she is referring to or relying on but my point is s ...
作者: caa 時間: 15-5-21 16:27
回覆 shadeslayer 的帖子
No idea either
作者: caa 時間: 15-5-21 16:56 標題: Obama wants shorter summer vacations for America's schoolkids
本帖最後由 caa 於 15-5-21 16:57 編輯
http://m.nydailynews.com/news/na ... rs-article-1.407418
作者: nintendo 時間: 15-5-21 17:00 標題: 回覆：減短暑假的好處（張慧慈）
The US has summer holidays starting beginning of June. Hong Kong is very different. Schools (except international achools) have summer holidays starting around mid or early July.
作者: ANChan59 時間: 15-5-21 17:43 標題: 引用：The+US+has+summer+holidays+starting+begi
原帖由 nintendo 於 15-05-21 發表
The US has summer holidays starting beginning of June. Hong Kong is very different. Schools (except ...
作者: MrBeast 時間: 15-5-22 16:09
ANChan59 發表於 15-5-21 12:55
初步看了，原作者是講大B細B的優劣，而非暑期的長短！
作者: MrBeast 時間: 15-5-22 18:06
本帖最後由 MrBeast 於 15-5-23 05:22 編輯
作者: MrBeast 時間: 15-5-22 18:07
本帖最後由 MrBeast 於 15-5-23 05:25 編輯
作者: MrBeast 時間: 15-5-22 18:07
本帖最後由 MrBeast 於 15-5-23 05:27 編輯
作者: MrBeast 時間: 15-5-22 18:09
本帖最後由 MrBeast 於 15-5-23 05:28 編輯
作者: MrBeast 時間: 15-5-22 18:10
本帖最後由 MrBeast 於 15-5-23 05:29 編輯
Deleted
作者: shadeslayer 時間: 15-5-22 20:16 標題: 引用：
原帖由 MrBeast 於 15-05-22 發表
You can talk about the principles of the chapter
I remember it says big B has absolute advantage over small B, both in academic and sports. And the advantage carries over to adulthood.
作者: MrBeast 時間: 15-5-22 20:38
shadeslayer 發表於 15-5-22 20:16
Copyright materials.
You can talk about the principles of the chapter
作者: ANChan59 時間: 15-5-22 21:05 標題: 引用：Quote:shadeslayer+發表於+15-5-22+20:16+C
原帖由 MrBeast 於 15-05-22 發表
Is extracting a few pages not ok? If not, i will delete.
作者: shadeslayer 時間: 15-5-22 22:14 標題: 引用：Quote:shadeslayer+發表於+15-5-22+20:16+C
本帖最後由 shadeslayer 於 15-5-22 22:23 編輯
原帖由 MrBeast 於 15-05-22 發表
Is extracting a few pages not ok? If not, i will delete.
Question is, for the discussion here there is no need to copy the materials. You can tell the principles in your own words. Much better than requiring readers to go through a few pages of copyrighted materials and not knowing what percentage is ok and what is not.
What is more, copy a certain percentage of copyrighted materials for personal use and copy them for distribution in a public forum is two different things.
作者: MrBeast 時間: 15-5-23 05:47
本帖最後由 MrBeast 於 15-5-23 05:52 編輯
shadeslayer 發表於 15-5-22 22:14
Question is, for the discussion here there is no need to copy the materials. You can tell the princ ...
Ive removed much of the detail. its easier for others to get the key points n in the interest of copyright concerns. just a few minutes of my life, happy to oblige.
作者: caa 時間: 15-5-23 09:19
回覆 MrBeast 的帖子
Thanks for these extracts. I finally can recall where I read about summer holidays prejudicing disadvantaged kids.
作者: Jane1983 時間: 15-5-23 12:05
貧富才來都不公，由1歲到80歲都係，大家都明白。求學時期相對來說，已經是最公平的時候。考份卷，吾理你父母係邊個，吾理你美醜，吾理你識吾識講野擦鞋，能者勝。
作者: shadeslayer 時間: 15-5-23 13:33 標題: 引用：貧富才來都不公，由1歲到80歲都係，大家都
原帖由 Jane1983 於 15-05-23 發表
貧富才來都不公，由1歲到80歲都係，大家都明白。求學時期相對來說，已經是最公平的時候。考份卷，吾理你父 ...
作者: Jane1983 時間: 15-5-23 15:55
回覆 shadeslayer 的帖子
希望政策有利自己，係人之常情。但以貧富分流，就擺明反智。
作者: goodenough 時間: 15-5-23 18:06
本帖最後由 goodenough 於 15-5-23 18:57 編輯
暑假本可以讓孩子在陽光普照的暑熱日子享受戶外活動，暫且放下緊張又忙碌的學習生活，平衡身心發展。又可讓孩子為過去的一年作總結，也為新的一年作準備。
假若，當暑假已漸漸變成上補習班催谷的日子、當暑假已逐步成為家長的手段，以強化孩子學習能力和視野的時候，也難怪沒能力在暑假送子女往補習、送子女往遊學增廣見聞的父母發出怨言！明明是很想孩子有個開心快樂暑假，現在卻倒轉頭來想快點開學！這不是跟「信是生男惡，反是生女好。生女猶得嫁比鄰，生男埋沒隨百草」的情況有點相似。在以往重男輕女的封建思想社會中，何解會想到竟然是生女比生男還好？只是年年的征戰，令百姓痛不欲生，杜甫還不是要說說反話來舒發一下感受。
如果因為要上補習班催谷的壞風氣而渴望縮短假期的話，本身已經可惜。如果因為自己對教育制度理解不足，只是人云亦云的，又或錯判當前的教育情況而白白犧牲了寶貴的假期的話，就更加不值！現在的升學制度已盡量平衡同學升去心儀中學的機會，除了大抽獎之外，至少還有不少成功例子是平民學校同學憑實力走進官津受歡迎的學校。而且，自教育改革之後，拔尖補底的措施已非常普通，不少學校除了要求同學放學留下補課之外，部份更會在星期六或一些假期中，安排補習課程給同學，讓可拔尖的同學更上一層樓，讓不足的同學回到應有水平。暑假對同學來說，已是一個好卑微的要求！如果資源許可而確實又有需要的話，個別學校，像協恩還會為中五升中六的同學特別縮短暑假，提前「開學」！
暑假期間，難得是可以放下書包，換上背包，遠走他方。踏在別人的土壤上，呼吸人家的空氣，瞭解別人的文化。又可走上古戰場，重溫兩軍對陣時的激烈，感受屍橫遍地的悲壯！沒有機會遊學的同學也不要緊，還有不少有意義的工作。可參加一些義工團往參觀老人院，跟長者們混熟了，他或會帶你走進時光隧道，跟你細訴比古戰場更激烈、更可歌可泣的往事，送你寶貴的人生一課！
沒需要上學的日子總會令人著迷！每一年的暑假就是孩子最喜歡的日子，總渴望快些到來。給一個機會孩子休養生息，為孩子的臉上加點笑容，為來年整裝待發，為未來嘅人生添上滋潤，作為父母的才會拍手！
作者: annie40 時間: 15-5-24 07:19
印象中喜歡上學的孩子，從來不在乎暑假長短。基本是早點見到朋友更開心了。
上學讓人覺得討厭，沒趣，沒自由，問題出在那兒？
作者: MrBeast 時間: 15-5-24 08:09
Personally, 我也是prefer 有暑假，孩子要叉電，又要比佢hea 下待腦仔rewire, 但相信中學階段暑假其實可做多一些
作者: ANChan59 時間: 15-5-24 09:31 標題: 引用：Personally,+我也是prefer+有暑假，孩子要
原帖由 MrBeast 於 15-05-24 發表
Personally, 我也是prefer 有暑假，孩子要叉電，又要比佢hea 下待腦仔rewire, 但相信中學階段暑假其實可做 ...
作者: Yanamami 時間: 15-5-24 09:34
諗起自己細个，最期待暑假可以sleep in, 唔洗朝朝趕头趕命食隻包~
作者: Yanamami 時間: 15-5-24 09:36
本帖最後由 Yanamami 於 15-5-24 09:37 編輯
annie40 發表於 15-5-24 07:19
印象中喜歡上學的孩子，從來不在乎暑假長短。基本是早點見到朋友更開心了。
上學讓人覺得討厭，沒趣，沒自 ...
放到尾段恨快d开学……好㗎！番学時恨放假，放假時恨番学，有盼望曰子过得快~
作者: nintendo 時間: 15-5-24 10:50
本帖最後由 nintendo 於 15-5-24 11:13 編輯
Modern education was an "old" product. It started in the times when a lot of families were still farmers.
In that time, many children would simply skipped school in summer just to stay home to help parents harvest their farmland.
In the end, schools decided that since may kids are not at school, lets have a long summer holiday.
When I was at university, I had a few friends that were from farmers families. They all said that summer holidays used to have that purpose.
Of course for now, it appears that we no longer need the long summer to work in home farms, which are much more modernised.
Families economical situation is also different now.
For most families, they can afford holiday trips with the kids.
For grass root families, it might be a good time for summer jobs.
I do not see how shorter long holidays can really help kids.
You are only trying to retain them at the same spot, i.e "the school" only.Quality education does not have to happen 12 months a year, 30 days a month.
Most schools have way under 200 school days per year, and we have been doing fine.
Children need non-academic experience to help them grow.
Whether that is expensive family trip, or dirty summer job (to earn more $).
These are all good experience.
Not only expensive tuitions or expensive summer cruises are benificial.
作者: nintendo 時間: 15-5-24 10:56
annie40 發表於 15-5-24 07:19
印象中喜歡上學的孩子，從來不在乎暑假長短。基本是早點見到朋友更開心了。
上學讓人覺得討厭，沒趣，沒自由，問題出在哪兒？
My kids enjoy learning. But they also enjoy holidays.
I think there is no need to equate people that enjoy holidays to those that are not happy at school/work.
If we do the same thing every day, it is going to be boring.
After long holidays, many students are actually happy to go back to school.
I do not think there is any problems.
作者: Yanamami 時間: 15-5-24 11:08
nintendo 發表於 15-5-24 10:50
Modern education was an "old" product. It started in the times when a lot of families were still far ...
作者: nintendo 時間: 15-5-24 11:22
本帖最後由 nintendo 於 15-5-24 11:23 編輯
Yanamami 發表於 15-5-24 11:08
係~~放暑假要幫多d阿媽做家務……
Mom always asked me to help her do laundry. The part I hated most was to pair socks when their were dry. My brother would be the one that cook. His wife (and children) should thank my mom for training him up with cooking. We did not have much chance for trips since dad was always busy at his job and money was tight. But we had lots of precious time at home.
作者: MrBeast 時間: 15-5-24 11:52
Yanamami 發表於 15-5-24 11:08
係~~放暑假要幫多d阿媽做家務……
作者: shadeslayer 時間: 15-5-24 12:08 標題: 引用：+本帖最後由+nintendo+於+15-5-24+11:23+編
原帖由 nintendo 於 15-05-24 發表
本帖最後由 nintendo 於 15-5-24 11:23 編輯
But this logic is flawed and is based on a wicked sense of fairness. What if rich kids do weekend tuitions, Ms Cheung then advocate boarding schools with no weekend breaks? What if the rich kids go to a school with better teachers? Then Ms Cheung might advocate having one type of government schools and no more DSS, private schools and ISs?
What about parents knowledge and home teaching? How do you level that? What about nutrition advantage that rich kids have? What about the health care advantage? What about the residence advantage? What about the transportation advantage saving valuable time? The list is never ending.
To achieve the ultimate fairness in Ms Cheung's sense, one has to do what the government do in "the Giver". The government collect all the new borns, assign to families and children receive similar upbringing.
作者: nintendo 時間: 15-5-24 12:29
shadeslayer 發表於 15-5-24 12:08
You don't understand Ms Cheung's logic. She is saying longer holiday gives the rich kids academic ad ...
How did you come up with me not understanding her logic?
作者: shadeslayer 時間: 15-5-24 12:37 標題: 引用：Quote:shadeslayer+發表於+15-5-24+12:08+Y
原帖由 nintendo 於 15-05-24 發表
How did you come up with me not understanding her logic?
"I do not see how shorter long holidays can really help kids.
........
........
Children need non-academic experience to help them grow."
Ms Cheung was talking about leveling the playing field, that is how she would like to help poor kids.
Ms C also focus on "academic" performance ...."
作者: nintendo 時間: 15-5-24 12:54
shadeslayer 發表於 15-5-24 12:37
From your previous post:
"I do not see how shorter long holidays can really help kids.
I know her logic. Just that I do not agree.
Oh. Whatever.
作者: annie40 時間: 15-5-24 17:40
曾看過的文章，忘記了出處。提議縮短暑假的是美國，不是歐美。
美國的暑假是從五月中至九月初，足足近四個月。四個月唔返學跟香港孩子放六至七星期假的分別很大。美國有自己的教育問題，香港情況完全不適用！
也許張小姐沒有孩子，完全把時事觸角配錯位置。
作者: ANChan59 時間: 15-5-24 19:14 標題: 回覆：annie40 的帖子
我在較早回帖中有類似看法！
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