教育王國
標題: How hard is it to get into Oxbridge? [打印本頁]
作者: 4eyesDad 時間: 12-11-2 17:49 標題: How hard is it to get into Oxbridge?
本帖最後由 4eyesDad 於 12-11-2 17:51 編輯
See the link from Guardian, UK:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/datablog/2012/oct/11/how-hard-is-it-to-get-into-oxbridge?intcmp=239
It appears that Oxford is harder to get into than Cambridge in terms of success rate in law and medicine (2011 figures):
Oxford law: 17% (state schools)/24% (independent schools)
Oxford medicine: 12%/16%
Cambridge law: 27%/36%
Cambridge medicine: 17%/30%
Compare to the average 3% success rate for some kindergartens and primary schools in Hong Kong, Oxbridge is arguably not hard to get into at all!
作者: Shootastar 時間: 12-11-2 18:03
Oxbridge applicants are in a self serving pool - that means every applicant has equal chance to be admitted. However, for other schools, if you are not up to the standard, you may still apply. That is why the admission rate of Oxbridge is higher than other UK colleges.
作者: elbar 時間: 12-11-2 22:12
牛津劍橋新生 5中學佔多數 
作者: ANChan59 時間: 12-11-3 11:06
回復 4eyesDad 的帖子
Also need to check the number of applicants for both programs, if same standard, why Oxford?
作者: peter_pan 時間: 12-11-4 12:58
Cambridge medical school is bigger than its Oxford counterpart. This may be part of the reason why Oxford is harder to get into.
作者: ANChan59 時間: 12-11-4 13:31
peter_pan 發表於 12-11-4 12:58 
Cambridge medical school is bigger than its Oxford counterpart. This may be part of the reason why O ...
Similar pattern in HK for social work, because of limited quota.
作者: 4eyesDad 時間: 12-11-4 16:51
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It is true that high school students don't even bother to apply to Oxbridge if they are not top of the class already whereas everybody in the same age group can apply for Hong Kong kindergartens and primary schools.
作者: 4eyesDad 時間: 12-11-4 16:53
回復 elbar 的帖子
These 5 schools are well-known in the UK.
作者: 4eyesDad 時間: 12-11-4 16:58
回復 ANChan59 的帖子
Oxford seems to attract more applicants than Cambridge in these two undergraduate courses. I think it is reasonable to assume the standard is very similar. However, Oxford is always slightly ahead of Cambridge in terms of news headlines because of its dominance in politics. Almost all post-war British Prime Ministers went to Oxford.
作者: 4eyesDad 時間: 12-11-4 17:02
回復 peter_pan 的帖子
In view of what you said, a rational applicant for medicine should, other things being equal and in the absence of other factors, apply for Cambridge instead of Oxford if he has to make a choice.
作者: ANChan59 時間: 12-11-4 17:18
回復 4eyesDad 的帖子
Never mind, it's a speculative question.
My son applied Cambridge this year, we did thorough research and made the final shot.
作者: 4eyesDad 時間: 12-11-4 18:45
回復 ANChan59 的帖子
Your analysis is correct and I wish your son every success. Do you mind saying which college he applied? In my experience, many HK students are very gifted but still find the interview part difficult. Last year, many students (including some from DBS - your son's school, if I remember correctly) failed to get any offer because of their poor interview performance!
作者: ANChan59 時間: 12-11-4 19:17
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I will pm you the college.
We learn from others' mistakes, he puts more efforts on details, like personal statement, college selection, college essay, and interview preparation. School will arrange mock interviews for them by old Boys from relevant universities and programs.
Also this year, Oxford provided interview seminar for HK applicants and university counsellors shared the tips with other students. Last year, the school understated average 2 grades per student, this year may have 3 times more applicants with better grades.
I am not the interviewer, I can't comment on previous interview performance of HK applicants. 18% admission rate of HK applicants for Cambridge, but all are elites, so some boys finally got in Princeton and MBBS, it's fine.
作者: peter_pan 時間: 12-11-4 19:56
4eyesdad, echoing your point about prime ministers from Oxford. I read an article recently saying that not just a large percentage of prime ministers, but in fact a large percentage of Member of Parliament went to Oxford to study PPE. Cambridge's PPS pales in comparison!
作者: joys2334 時間: 12-11-4 21:45
Just wondering whether it worths to spend time on studying LNAT if the child is applying for Cambridge Law?
Could anybody help?
作者: odelia_ho 時間: 12-11-5 11:03
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May I know which 5 please?
作者: Shootastar 時間: 12-11-5 11:30
Oxford only offeres 6 medical places for inrternational students while Cambridge offers 22 medical places for international students. The numbers (maximum) are set by law.
Unless one is the tip of the top of your cohort, he would not apply to Oxford for medicine.
On the face of the number places, Cambridge's place appears to be about 3.7 times of Oxford. However since the Singapore Government has committed a certain medical places for its nominated citizens each year, the number of places hould be less than 22.
My kids had the experience of being interviewed by Cambridge. My S applied for law with Cambridge several years ago. He was interviewed and put in the Winter pool. Unfortunately, he was rejected in mid-January. In the interview, he was asked questions arising from a court case which was given to him for reading half an hour before the interview. He was also asked some factual questions, such as who is the leading legal figure in Hong Kong who studied law at Cambridge.
My D was invited to attend an interview at Cambridge last year. There were 2 interviews, each last for 30 minutes. Each interview was conducted by 2 professors. The first interview centered on the scientific knowledge which you could answer. The second interview focused on the application of the knowledge on different scenarios. This was the most difficult part of the interview. At the end of the day, my D was rejected. However, the experience of attending an interview with Cambridge made her know what medical interview was about. It was her first medical interview. At the end of the day, she obtained offers from other UK medical schools as well as local medical schools. It is a rewarding experience to attend an interview at Cambridge although my D needed to fly to UK from HK. On the other hand, you would know that Cambridge was serious about her application.
作者: bobbycheung 時間: 12-11-5 13:21
本帖最後由 bobbycheung 於 12-11-5 13:23 編輯
Shootastar 發表於 12-11-5 11:30
Oxford only offeres 6 medical places for inrternational students while Cambridge offers 22 medical p ...
Shootastar,
Where could I find the figures for the maximum number of places allocated to international students in different subjects?
I was looking at the data downloaded from the link given by 4eyesDad. It appears that the total number of UK applicants (ie. state school applications plus independent school applications) applying to do medicine are about the same. On the other hand, there were only 372 "other applications" for Oxford but 776 "other applications" for Cambridge. I take it that "other applications" means non-UK applications. I was wondering why there were so many more non-UK applicants applying to Cambridge. Now what you told us explained why it is the case. It is simply because Cambridge allocated more places to international students.
I also had the same query about law. There were a total of 403 UK students applying to Cambridge and 740 UK students applying to Oxford. On the other hand, there were 608 "other applications" for Cambridge and only 417 "other applications" for Oxford. I guess it also had something to do with the different number of places allocated to international students.
On an entirely different note, I think this tab from the data is quite useful
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aq73qj3QslDedEc0WHBEQXJTZlJwRy1KaW9LZlZjaVE#gid=4
I guess kids should aim for at least A*A*A in order to have a better chance of getting into Oxbridge.
作者: Shootastar 時間: 12-11-5 14:07
回復 bobbycheung 的帖子
Oxford and Cambridge claimed that they set no limit on the number of international students they could admit except the applicants for medicine. It is because the limit imposed by the UK law that Oxford is allowed to admit 6 and Cambridge to admit 22 (maximum).
Athough they said there is no limit on the international students, I would think that for each subject, the places for international students are around 8% to 10% of the total spaces.
As to law, Oxford's class is about150 to 160 students while Cambridge admits about 200 to 220 each year. It would therefore appear that it is "more difficult" to get into Oxford law than Cambridge.
作者: bobbycheung 時間: 12-11-5 15:01
本帖最後由 bobbycheung 於 12-11-5 15:03 編輯
Shootastar 發表於 12-11-5 14:07
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Oxford and Cambridge claimed that they set no limit on the number of intern ...
Shootastar,
Thanks! I have one more question. Looking at the data, the number of "other acceptances" is indeed 6 for Oxford Medicine. However, for Cambridge Medicine, the number of "other acceptances" is said to be 60.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aq73qj3QslDedEc0WHBEQXJTZlJwRy1KaW9LZlZjaVE#gid=2
I wonder what happened.
作者: Shootastar 時間: 12-11-5 15:34
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bobbycheung
I suppose that the "other applicants" means the applicants from outside UK which include EU and non-EU (International students). The number of International students is limited by the law of UK to 22. So the rest of the applicants should be from EU countries (which are not considered "international".
作者: ANChan59 時間: 12-11-5 16:08
本帖最後由 ANChan59 於 12-11-5 16:09 編輯
回復 Shootastar 的帖子
Thanks for your info. We are on the same page.
The % of admission is not the key, the quota is the key.
作者: Shootastar 時間: 12-11-5 17:54
回復 joys2334 的帖子
You are correct that there is no need to take LNAT if you apply to Cambridge. However, if you also apply to other LNAT schools, you still have to take the LNAT.
作者: 4eyesDad 時間: 12-11-6 10:51
回復 odelia_ho 的帖子
I understand these 5 schools regularly send the highest number of students to Oxbridge:
1. Westminster
2. Eton
3. Hill Road SFC
4. St. Paul's Girls
5. St. Paul's School
As a matter of fact, Singapore's Raffle and Hwa Chong JS also send around 20 or more students to Oxbridge every year. The number for HK schools is quite low. Part of the reason is that many good HK students go abroad for their final years of high school whereas Singaporeans have national service to consider and they are not known to go abroad for high school education.
I just wonder whether the standard of HK schools also has an impact here. The logic is that if HK schools can provide comparable education and produce similar number, our good students may not need to study abroad for high school and we can send many many more students to Oxbridge every year (assuming money is no object)!
作者: 4eyesDad 時間: 12-11-6 10:59
回復 Shootastar 的帖子
Thank you for sharing your kids' Cambridge interview experiences with us. Many people seem to say the same thing: the interviews are the most difficult part of the application process but many people still enjoy the interviews whatever the result.
作者: Shootastar 時間: 12-11-6 11:49
本帖最後由 Shootastar 於 12-11-6 12:00 編輯
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Each year, Oxford and Cambridge admit around 60 students originated from Hong Kong (whose permanent residence is Hong Kong although they hold UK passports and/or study board schools in UK). The number (60) is about 1.7% to 1.8% of their places. Bearing in mind that they admit about 8% to 10% of international students, Oxford and Cambridge are very kind to Hong Kong students.
作者: Shootastar 時間: 12-11-6 11:54
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There is no single school in Hong Kong which can send 20 students to Oxbridge each year.
However, our elite local schools and international schools report each year that they have students admitted to Oxbridge, If we sum up the figures, I guess that each year about 30 students are admitted by Oxford and Cambridge direct from Hong Kong's education system (both from local and international schools).
In other words, if you are amongst the top tiers of students in local elite schools and international schools, you still have good chance to be admitted by Oxbridge although you need some luck because each applicant, if admitted, is able to complete his/her studies in Oxbridge,
作者: anguish 時間: 12-11-6 12:38
回復 Shootastar 的帖子
Do you know which school (International or local) in Hong Kong send most pupils to Oxbridge? Thanks.
作者: anguish 時間: 12-11-6 12:49
Surprised there are only 5 schools dominated the race. I thought Magdalen College School and Haberdashers' Aske's are very competitive as well.
作者: Shootastar 時間: 12-11-6 12:58
回復 anguish 的帖子
If you read the profiles of LPC or CIS, you will find that on average, 3 to 4 students will go to Oxbridge each year.
For ESF schools, I do not have concrete figures, but I believe that around 10 students are admitted to Oxbridge in a typical year.
For GSIS, again I do not have concrete figures, but I believe that each year it sends 3 to 4 students to Oxbridge.
In case of local elite schools such as St. Paul Co-ed, DBS, DGS, QC,.... they persistently report that they have students admitted to Oxbridge each year.
作者: odelia_ho 時間: 12-11-6 14:14
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IC, they are all elite schools!
I don't know what is the mindset of HK parents sending their kids to study abroad, for my consideration of sending kids study abroad are
Attend A level instead of DSE
Learn fluent English
Learn different culture and living
Broading mindset and thinking
For universities' interview, studying in the UK, could learn more interview technic (accumulated from daily learning) and learn natural response. HK students always have difficulty to encounter, most of them are narrow thinking and have limited knowledge of express their views.
作者: Shootastar 時間: 12-11-6 15:32
Save for learning (experiencing) different culture and living in a foreign country, the benefits of studying in a high school abroad could be acquired in an elite local schools and/or international school in Hong Kong.
Regarding interview techniques, there is no interview held by the UK colleges unless you apply to Oxbridge or for medical program.
If you are not the top top top amongst your school, the chance of being admitted to Oxbridge is not too high even if you are in an elite UK boarding school. However, if you are in the tip top group, the local kid has the same chance of being admitted to Oxbridge as a boarding school student. Even if he is not admitted to Oxbridge, he can still be admitted to an Ivy or its equivalent (such as Stanford, MIT, CIT....). If you read the profiles of DBS, DGS, SPC, LPC, CIS.... you are amazed that how come there are so many students admitted to the top top top universities each year.
作者: 11Daddy 時間: 12-11-6 18:35
What is the point of studying Medicine in Oxford or Cambridge? There is virtually very slim chance to practice in Hong Kong.
作者: iodine 時間: 12-11-7 10:42
11Daddy 發表於 12-11-6 18:35
What is the point of studying Medicine in Oxford or Cambridge? There is virtually very slim chance t ...
The passing rate of hk licensing exam is not too low for uk candidate. The reported overall rate of success of less than 5% is because the failure of Chinese candidates in the English language test.
作者: peter_pan 時間: 12-11-7 12:22
Even if you do pass the licensing exam, it will be more difficult for oversea trained doctors to get into a good specialist training programme, as well as the need to repeat your internship in Hong Kong. So if the long term aim is to practice in Hong Kong, it'll make more sense to study medicine in HKU or CU. All the Hong Kong students currently studying in the UK (including those at Winchester, Eton, Wycombe, Cheltenham Ladies'...etc) are all applying back to HKU & CU if they want to do medicine. I dare say that the competition may be even harder than Oxbridge!!
作者: Shootastar 時間: 12-11-7 13:46
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As you can see from posts made by other participants, it is even harder to get into HKU and CU medicine than into UK's college.
The passing rate is not very high even if you take into account of the candidates from Mainland China. You can find the success rate in the annual report of the medical council. Sometimes they would give a summary as to the success rate of different candidates from different countries.
The point of applying to Oxbridge and/or other UK medical schools is to make an insurance. If you are admitted by HKU or CU, there is no point to study medicine in UK even if in Cambridge or Oxford.
作者: 11Daddy 時間: 12-11-7 15:33
There is an issue of monopoly. Certainly this is not in the interest of the public. How can the medical profession justify graduates from the local medical schools are better than that of Imperial, Oxford or Cambridge.
作者: bobbycheung 時間: 12-11-7 16:29
回復 11Daddy 的帖子
That's life, my friend. If there is a conflict between public interest and the interest of a profession, you know who prevails. It applies to the medical profession as well as the legal profession. I guess this kind of "protectionism" happens in other countries as well. I have been persuading my kid not to do medicine or law. If she studies these subjects in HK and if she decides to leave HK one day, I am afraid she might find that her qualification is not recognised elsewhere or there are artificial barriers stopping her from practising in another country.
作者: peter_pan 時間: 12-11-7 17:25
I don't think we can blame the medical or legal profession regarding "protectionism'. Being a British colony in the past, Hong Kong has no choice but to recognise British qualifications even though the arrangement was not reciprical. Now that we are no longer a British colony, such one directional arrangment is no longer tolerated. It isn't a matter of whether HKU is better than Oxbridge, but a need for reciprical recognition. Harvard medical graduates cannot waltz into the UK & work without certain procedures. It doesn't mean that Harvard graduates are not as good as British graduates.
作者: 11Daddy 時間: 12-11-7 17:56
The arrangement of the legal profession appears to be more reasonable, so far as one can go through a conversion procedure.
作者: 阿飯 時間: 12-11-7 20:45
More often than not it takes one to delve to get to the fact as is the case here regarding the size of the medical school at Cambridge. On paper it may appear that close to 300 students are admitted to do medicine at Cambridge annually but in reality less than half of that number would be able to remain there to complete the course. The discrepancy arises from the largely ignored fact that Cambridge, probably unique amongst all the other medical schools in the UK (or in the world for that matter) runs a substantially smaller and more selective clinical school which after much expansion over the years still only has a capacity for about 150 students ( it was less than 100 until the late 90s ) despite the mammoth size of the world-renowned Addenbrooke's Hospital on Hills Road at which the school is located. It exists as a separate entity to the university and runs its own admission procedure - not only does it take less than half of the students from Cambridge it also caters for applicants from outside the university as well - this apparent anomaly stems from history as traditionally one could only pursue the study of medicine at Oxbridge as a second degree hence the course at both places is intercalated - the preclinical years where one is affiliated with a college includes a whole year of research at his or her third year leading to a thesis and an award of a BA after which one is then eligible to apply for a place at the clinical school - whereas at Oxford they admit more or less the same number of students commensurate with the size of its clinical school at Cambridge it is almost twice or thrice the size. Hence, in this respect the clinical school at Cambridge runs in a similar fashion like a true graduate school as those in the States - a student at Cambridge has to face another round of selection procedure based on merit, academic performance and another interviewing process towards the end of his third year . The uncertainty and the additional hurdles add further stress to the already intense workload. All is not lost though as those who fail usually end up at destinations like Oxford or London to complete their training. There is just no smooth sailing studying medicine at Cambridge even one passes all his examinations in his pre-clinical years.
Another factual error - reciprocal recognition of medical degrees from either place or indeed from most reputable medical schools within the commonwealth has been the norm up until the run-up to the handover when HK unilaterally terminated such arrangement. Despite this, one could still apply to practise in the UK with a medical degree from either CU or HKU nowadays without sitting a redundant licentiate examination like the one in HK ( whether one could find a job is another matter ). This arrangement also extends to medical graduates from Australia, NZ , Singapore, etc.
As to the relative merits of studying medicine at home or abroad I suppose the issue really depends on the individual's intent and predisposition - if one excels at passing exams and only choose medicine for job security - practising medicine whether in a hospital setting or privately - mundane though it may sound then without doubt stay at home but if one happens to be scientifically minded, inquisitive and is fortunate enough to be offered a place at prestigious names like Oxbridge, Imperial or the equivalents in the States ( though for the latter one usually is at a more mature age with a clear intent already on his or her career), my advice is - grab it for it opens a lot more opportunities - where else in HK would you see truly world-famous clinician with prestigious prize like Lasker under his or her belt ? With accolades like memberships from learnt societies such as the Royal Society or establishment like the National Academy of Science ? Or be in close proximity to world-renowned research facilities where great minds are nurtured ? Or at the forefront of cutting-edge new technologies and discoveries ? The MRC Laboratory right outside the clinical school at Cambridge is home to 9 Nobel prize winners alone ! Academic medicine, especially at great place like Oxbridge or Ivies are a world apart from more familiar names closer at home and the networking could open up opportunities not only across the Atlantic but also across the globe as well. Shortsightedness is the only word that spring to my mind at the time of writing if one only looks at the monetary return in one's profession - for nothing is guaranteed in the long run - especially with the situation in HK now when one is a neighbour to an imploding regime. Things may look good when the fiscal policy is loose but at lean times - remember the days just after the handover ......
That's just my 2 cents but hopefully it would help to debunk some myths.
作者: 4eyesDad 時間: 12-11-7 20:51
回復 odelia_ho 的帖子
There really are too many unspecific benefits about studying abroad, especially if one can get into a leading school like Eton and a leading university like Oxford.
A recent example is Sir John Gurdon, who went to Eton and Oxford and, in 2012, won the Nobel Prize in medicine.
At school, he was hopeless at science. He went to study Latin and Greek at Oxford. He then went on to read zoology. Obviously he developed a talent in science quite late, around 20s.
Had he been a Hong Kong person, he would have been assigned to an uninspiring university (if any) for an associate degree and then struggled all his life for a meaningless living in order to fund a 500 ft home mortgage.
However, this is not the case in the UK. Here is an extract from Wiki about him:
"....John Gurdon attended Eton College, where he ranked last out of the 250 boys in his year group at biology, and was in the bottom set in every other science subject. A schoolmaster wrote a report stating "I believe he has ideas about becoming a scientist; on his present showing this is quite ridiculous."[9] Gurdon later had this report framed; he told a reporter "When you have problems like an experiment doesn't work, which often happens, it's nice to remind yourself that perhaps after all you are not so good at this job and the schoolmaster may have been right."[10]
...."
作者: peter_pan 時間: 12-11-7 20:57
Perhaps it is because there are more scope for international cooperation in the legal profession. There is certainly better job prospect for oversea law graduates compared with medical graduates as many international law firms prefer oversea graduates with better English.
作者: ANChan59 時間: 12-11-7 21:53
回復 阿飯 的帖子
Thanks for your detail info.
作者: 11Daddy 時間: 12-11-8 04:32
"Shortsightedness is the only word that spring to my mind at the time of writing if one only looks at the monetary return in one's profession" - cannot agree more.
作者: odelia_ho 時間: 12-11-8 11:11
4eyesDad 發表於 12-11-7 20:51 
回復 odelia_ho 的帖子
There really are too many unspecific benefits about studying abroad, especial ...
Thank you for your sharing 
作者: Shootastar 時間: 12-11-8 12:15
回復 阿飯 的帖子
Thank you for your thorough information. However, I do have the following observations:
(1) To study at Cambridge would need about $3.0 Million (not yet to include inflation during the 6 year course). Not every one could afford to study at Cambridge even if you are admitted unless you have the scholarships.
(2) Unless the student wants to settle in UK, he has to take the licentiate examination in Hong Kong. He could not do so unless he has a full licence granted by the UK medical council. If we take into account the one-year training in UK, you need to spend about $3.5 million to $4.0 million for 7 years in U.K. Again money is another question.
(3) Assuming one has the money to finish his degree with Cambridge, he has to consider the chance of being able to practice in Hong Kong. The passing rate of the licenciate examination is less than 30% even for UK candidates.
(4) If you have good academic results, you are probably able to secure a job in London or Addenbrooke's Hospital. However, most of the foreign students end up in a NHS hospital in a small city. The experience and training he may have is not as good as one thinks.
(5) Not every medical student is money-minded. To the contrary, many of them are passionate about the profession because they could want to take care of others. If there is a chance that he is admitted by the local medical schools, he could practice as soon as he completes his internship.There is no uncertainty hanging around him as to his future if he studies at Oxbridge.
(6) The local medical education is as good as any medical school in UK (including Oxbridge) as far as the basic education is concerned. If not, the qualification of local medical schools would not be recognised by the UK medical council. How good the medical research made by Cambridge is would not substantially affect its basic medical education to the undergraduates. Save the label of "Cambridge", I feel the substance of the Cambridge medical education is more or less the same as the local one.
(7) Regarding medical research, local medical schools are not as good as Oxbridge or other medical schools in USA. However, the local medical schools do have a good reputation on its researches. HKU's medical laboratory is named as the key State Laboratory. It was the first one to decipher the SARS. The UN delegates HKU to do 2% of the human genome. Bearing in mind that the great number of medical schools in the world, if the research standing of HKU is not as good as other leading medical schools, why UN would make such a commission to HKU? HKU recently conducted the first combined liver and heart transplant. HKU's spinal surgery is the world-renowned. Its research is in the forefront of the world.
(8) If a medical student is minded to take the academic or research path after his basic training, he could do it at an overseas top top university or local medical schools.
作者: 11Daddy 時間: 12-11-8 14:33
According to QS World University Rankings for Medicine: Oxford ( 2 ), Cambridge ( 3 ) and Imperial ( 9 )
作者: 阿飯 時間: 12-11-9 07:19
To ANCan59
My pleasure.
To 11Daddy,
Glad someone chime in with me.
To Shootastar
Thanks for taking the time to respond. My passing comments may appear snide in part and it really is not my intention at all to insinuate.
Back to the points you raised, they are all reasonable but if money is the primary concern here, I suppose the entire thread would have been a pointless exercise of discussing moot points. Overseas education is expensive, this is a universally known fact. The question is whether it's worth it or not.
If one is really passionate about medicine it doesn't matter where he/she ends up practising - the satisfaction should be the same regardless. Afterall the Hippocratic Oath obliges one to transcend the issues of creed, breed and race.
Taking the licentiate exam is a matter of choice - if my child finds it rewarding practising in an overseas country I would certainly support his decision. Coming back to HK may not be in his best interest in the long run for I personally feel that HK is becoming a bad place for living, let alone raising a family - politically it is depressing, economically it is stifling, culturally it is rotting, morally it is bankrupting, environmentally it is fast degrading. The only " saving grace" if you still call it is the reputation as a major financial hub where money is still generated, albeit one thrives solely on speculations nowadays. With a brutal repressive regime up north trying to impose its whims via its installed puppets ignoring the well-being and wishes of the people here, who largely are an ignorant mass save a few, whose primary concern does not go beyond immediate gains or money, I fear for the worst to come.
Not everyone could become high-flier in his or her profession - and this simple observation also applies to the HK medical arena - here on our own turf only a handful of HKU or CU graduates could join the big teaching hospitals and work in a professorial unit for training. This is the harsh reality of competition and is the same everywhere. If a doctor really respects his work, I am sure he or she would still derive much satisfaction even working in a lesser hospital of importance, be it Tuen Mun hospital or a district general hospital in the UK. Depressing thing is more and more experienced doctors are leaving the system as soon as they can to join the gold-diggers in the private sectors and sooner or later the training system will be in tatters.
The fact that the basic medical qualifications from either HKU or CU are still recognized by the UK and most Commonwealth countries is no place for complacency - and anyway, it is a British legacy in the first place of setting up a trustworthy and reputable assessment system here through largely the hard work of Prof McFadzean and Prof Todd both of HKU in the 70 and 80s who convinced the Royal College in the UK to finally delegate power locally to conduct the examinations and award professional qualifications. It is a hard-won privilege and the esteem and honour associated with such trust should be cherished, not tarnished - but with the dean and the chief of staff in the department of surgery both fallen from grace because of greed lately, and fraudulent practices downplayed I sense something rotting there - especially discomforting when the supposedly stalwart of morality and integrity behaved otherwise. It seems that as a race we Chinese corrupts rapidly in the face of money and power.
All medical schools across any former British colonies are very much similar in their curriculua, be it NSU in Singapore, University of Auckland in NZ, etc. The crux is how and who deliver them - largely science-based, beside studying various subjects in great depth the pre-clinical course at Cambridge also equips its students at a very early stage the know-how to engage in lab work with numerous practical sessions as well as the capability for critical thinking, a merit from its unique supervision system, often conducted by world-class leaders in their respective fields. Such skills and mindset would prove essential in their third year when they would join a research team to engage in projects of their own choosing across a diverse range of subjects - even not necessarily related to medical sciences, for instance, one could even choose philosophy, computer science, management science etc. One's initiative is the beginning of endless possibilities and at Cambridge all one needs to do is to ask. Unearthing one's real potential is what makes Cambridge great. Furthermore, there is also the possibility to participate in a 1 year exchange program with MIT to get the most out of two great institutions on both sides of the Atlantic - where else would you find such stress on scientific research, original ideas combined with such flexibilities and possibilities as an undergraduate in a professional course ?
Just for your information, the original Human Genome Project was over almost 10 years ago - a project made possible by contributions from Cambridge firstly for the technological break through in sequencing technique and subsequently demonstration of the feasibility of analyzing the entire genome of an organism - both of which resulted in 2 Nobel Prizes for Cambridge. The on-going one you mentioned is a spin-off from the original one for detailed analysis and is a collaboration project amongst many universities across the globe which have the facilities in store for analysis. Participation is therefore more of a measure of hardware facilities, not technological or scientific breakthrough.
If you read about transplantation - you will also see Cambridge together with Pittsburgh are really what made the practices as we take for granted nowadays possible. Multi-visceral transplant is nothing new - the world's first combined liver, heart and lung transplant was performed at Cambridge about 25 years ago and the world's first successful combined stomach, intestine, pancreas, liver and kidney transplant also happened there 18 years ago. Our transplantation expertise stemmed from the late 90s when a team led by Prof Fan learnt it from Australia whose technique originated from Cambridge and others. Anyway, the science and the know-how has been worked out by the aforementioned universities and transplantation is a routine procedure nowadays even in countries like Peru.
I did find the comment that concerns the discovery of the then novel virus - SARS-CoV a rather glossing over of the details - KY Yuen's association with the fame of being its discoverer and decipher is more by virtue of convenience than his actual involvement - the honour should really goes to Prof Peiris of HKU , who subsequently garners praise worldwide for isolating and identifying this new virus - honours like a Fellowship of the Royal Society and Legion d'Honneur from France - not an easy feat had he been only merely involved. I did find that KY Yuen rather disingenuous when he did not refute the honour ( or may be indeed it is the increasingly sloppy press to blame ?) - after all Yuen is a microbiologist by trade not a virologist ! By the way, Prof Peiris is a graduate from Oxford.
HKU is renowned for it expertise in the field of liver, nasopharyngeal and oesophageal cancers by virtue of the fact that we have the highest incidence of those cancers in the world.
If one comes that far and is fortunate enough to be accepted by Cambridge to do medicine I suppose he or she should jump for the chance for it is a real eye-opener. I wish I had that opportunity when I was young.
作者: CPU1995 時間: 12-11-9 08:16 標題: 回覆：阿飯 的帖子
My son also cannot agree anymore for the benefit of overseas education - the real eye-opener and exposure. Rather, he said that the academic standard in HK is higher than that in UK for secondary education.
I know a girl with IGCSE 6A米 given up the offer of Cambridge is studying Medicine in HK now due to financial consideration. Otherwise, she would study Cambridge without hesitation.
作者: 阿飯 時間: 12-11-9 09:10
回復 CPU1995 的帖子
I am a bit confused by your grammar but I gather what you mean, no sweat.
I cannot agree more with your son's observation that public examinations seem a lot easier in the UK or indeed in the western world as a whole at least up to secondary level - but one's academic capability is not limited by the syllabus and with easy access to knowledge nowadays, it only takes little effort to learn beyond the syllabus. Knowledge acquired this way out of your own volition is more precious than those intended only for the purpose of passing public examinations. I at least know of a few students from Winchester who traveled regularly to a nearby university to sit for lectures there. When one is passionate about a subject one looks beyond the artificial limit set by examinations. This may explain why despite an apparent dumbing down on standard, the western world still dominates in almost every realm of knowledge.
Talking about standard there is no dispute that the process of dumbing down also happens here back home. "A" level in the 70s when I took it was a lot harder and the same could be said with each successive passing decade. The other point I want to raise is that in the run-up to the handover and the few years following it the admission standard of the medical school here suffered a dramatic drop in standard so much so that you could earn an entrance ticket with results like 2 Cs 1 D etc. Despite the dread of falling standard, graduates from those years still mostly turn out to be competent doctors, and there has not been any rise in professional negligence or misconduct either. By all likelihood, these doctors are now forming the backbone in the middle hierarchy in the establishment teaching the next generation of doctors. It seems we Chinese place too much emphasis on the importance of examinations so much as that it only benefit the private tuition market and destroy our children's interest and joy in the pursuit of knowledge.
作者: Shootastar 時間: 12-11-9 12:39
回復 阿飯 的帖子
Thank you for your detailed response. I do have the following comments arising therefrom:
Back to the points you raised, they are all reasonable but if money is the primary concern here, I suppose the entire thread would have been a pointless exercise of discussing moot points. Overseas education is expensive, this is a universally known fact. The question is whether it's worth it or not. [HK$3.5 to 4.0 million is not a small sum. Even if you work very hard, it needs more than 10 years to accumulate that amount of money (net of your family expenses].
If one is really passionate about medicine it doesn't matter where he/she ends up practising - the satisfaction should be the same regardless. Afterall the Hippocratic Oath obliges one to transcend the issues of creed, breed and race. [The Hippocratic Oath is an ideal one. In reality, one has to balance the work satisfaction against the working environment, the renumeration and the prospect of advancement.]
Taking the licentiate exam is a matter of choice - if my child finds it rewarding practising in an overseas country I would certainly support his decision. Coming back to HK may not be in his best interest in the long run for I personally feel that HK is becoming a bad place for living, let alone raising a family - politically it is depressing, economically it is stifling, culturally it is rotting, morally it is bankrupting, environmentally it is fast degrading. The only " saving grace" if you still call it is the reputation as a major financial hub where money is still generated, albeit one thrives solely on speculations nowadays. With a brutal repressive regime up north trying to impose its whims via its installed puppets ignoring the well-being and wishes of the people here, who largely are an ignorant mass save a few, whose primary concern does not go beyond immediate gains or money, I fear for the worst to come. [Personally I also support my kids' decision as to their choice of permanent residency. The problems you mentioned are not faced by your kids or mine. They are faced by 7 million of Hong Kong people. If they choose to reside and practise here to follow their dreams of serving others, the problems you mentioned should not deter them from doing so, After all, it is a personal choice of immigration or not.]
Not everyone could become high-flier in his or her profession - and this simple observation also applies to the HK medical arena - here on our own turf only a handful of HKU or CU graduates could join the big teaching hospitals and work in a professorial unit for training. This is the harsh reality of competition and is the same everywhere.[It is well known that it is very competitive to gain any training post of your choice. However, I am sure that over 90% of the graduates would not compete for scientific research or academic route.]
If a doctor really respects his work, I am sure he or she would still derive much satisfaction even working in a lesser hospital of importance, be it Tuen Mun hospital or a district general hospital in the UK. [Agreed.]
Depressing thing is more and more experienced doctors are leaving the system as soon as they can to join the gold-diggers in the private sectors and sooner or later the training system will be in tatters. [I think the market force would have an important part to play. If the economy is not good, I am sure that many experienced doctors would choose to stay in the public sectors One cannot complain that the experienced doctors should stay in the public sector if they have choices. So long as our training system could provide sufficient doctors of similar levels of skills, the exodus of experienced doctors may not be a big problem.]
The fact that the basic medical qualifications from either HKU or CU are still recognized by the UK and most Commonwealth countries is no place for complacency - and anyway, [It is not a matter of complacency. It is a matter to reflect the standard of our basic medical education.]
it is a British legacy in the first place of setting up a trustworthy and reputable assessment system here through largely the hard work of Prof McFadzean and Prof Todd both of HKU in the 70 and 80s who convinced the Royal College in the UK to finally delegate power locally to conduct the examinations and award professional qualifications. It is a hard-won privilege and the esteem and honour associated with such trust should be cherished, not tarnished - but with the dean and the chief of staff in the department of surgery both fallen from grace because of greed lately, and fraudulent practices downplayed I sense something rotting there - especially discomforting when the supposedly stalwart of morality and integrity behaved otherwise. It seems that as a race we Chinese corrupts rapidly in the face of money and power. [The scandals should affect the reputation of HKU's medical school, no doubt.
All medical schools across any former British colonies are very much similar in their curriculua, be it NSU in Singapore, University of Auckland in NZ, etc. The crux is how and who deliver them - largely science-based, beside studying various subjects in great depth the pre-clinical course at Cambridge also equips its students at a very early stage the know-how to engage in lab work with numerous practical sessions as well as the capability for critical thinking, a merit from its unique supervision system, often conducted by world-class leaders in their respective fields. Such skills and mindset would prove essential in their third year when they would join a research team to engage in projects of their own choosing across a diverse range of subjects - even not necessarily related to medical sciences, for instance, one could even choose philosophy, computer science, management science etc. One's initiative is the beginning of endless possibilities and at Cambridge all one needs to do is to ask. Unearthing one's real potential is what makes Cambridge great. Furthermore, there is also the possibility to participate in a 1 year exchange program with MIT to get the most out of two great institutions on both sides of the Atlantic - where else would you find such stress on scientific research, original ideas combined with such flexibilities and possibilities as an undergraduate in a professional course ?[Certainly Cambridge would provide a good foundation to the medical students if they pursue the academic or scientific research after their basic medical education. The question is how many Cambridge medical graduates choose the academic and scientific research route? If one chooses to take the scientific research or academic route in Hong Kong, HKU also provides a 8-years PhD/MBBS program to him. After he completes the pre-clinical education, he would proceed with PhD course, doing scientifc researches. He will also have the chance of attending USA leading universities to do the researeches as well.]
Just for your information, the original Human Genome Project was over almost 10 years ago - a project made possible by contributions from Cambridge firstly for the technological break through in sequencing technique and subsequently demonstration of the feasibility of analyzing the entire genome of an organism - both of which resulted in 2 Nobel Prizes for Cambridge. The on-going one you mentioned is a spin-off from the original one for detailed analysis and is a collaboration project amongst many universities across the globe which have the facilities in store for analysis. Participation is therefore more of a measure of hardware facilities, not technological or scientific breakthrough.[Thank you for the information. Anyway it reflects HKU's medical school is still amongst the top medical schools in the world. I could not recall its ranking exactly, but I believe that it is around 30 in QS ranking. For your information, HKU's chemistry department is ranked 9 amongst the world. This shows that HKU's chemical scientifc researches are as good as the leading universities in the world. The Chemistry Department has run a number of medical researches collaboratively with the medical school of HKU.
If you read about transplantation - you will also see Cambridge together with Pittsburgh are really what made the practices as we take for granted nowadays possible. Multi-visceral transplant is nothing new - the world's first combined liver, heart and lung transplant was performed at Cambridge about 25 years ago and the world's first successful combined stomach, intestine, pancreas, liver and kidney transplant also happened there 18 years ago. Our transplantation expertise stemmed from the late 90s when a team led by Prof Fan learnt it from Australia whose technique originated from Cambridge and others. Anyway, the science and the know-how has been worked out by the aforementioned universities and transplantation is a routine procedure nowadays even in countries like Peru.[The point I stressed is that HKU's transplantation technique, if not better, should be as good as others.]
I did find the comment that concerns the discovery of the then novel virus - SARS-CoV a rather glossing over of the details - KY Yuen's association with the fame of being its discoverer and decipher is more by virtue of convenience than his actual involvement - the honour should really goes to Prof Peiris of HKU , who subsequently garners praise worldwide for isolating and identifying this new virus - honours like a Fellowship of the Royal Society and Legion d'Honneur from France - not an easy feat had he been only merely involved. I did find that KY Yuen rather disingenuous when he did not refute the honour ( or may be indeed it is the increasingly sloppy press to blame ?) - after all Yuen is a microbiologist by trade not a virologist ! By the way, Prof Peiris is a graduate from Oxford.[No matter it is Prof Yuen or Prof Peiris, they are from the HKU medical faculty.]
HKU is renowned for it expertise in the field of liver, nasopharyngeal and oesophageal cancers by virtue of the fact that we have the highest incidence of those cancers in the world.[In fact, HKU has made a lot of advancements and contributions on these areas.]
If one comes that far and is fortunate enough to be accepted by Cambridge to do medicine I suppose he or she should jump for the chance for it is a real eye-opener.[Personally I know a Cambridge graudate who studied medicine after 1997. He wanted to practice in Hong Kong but is unsuccessful due to the fact that he has failed in the licentiate examinations for 3 times. After all it is his choice. He was also admitted by HKU then.]
I wish I had that opportunity when I was young. I do not have the opportunity when I was young because I could not afford to study abroad. I certainly would choose Cambridge if I had money and I was admitted if I was not required to take the licentiate examination. My daughter chooses to study in Hong Kong although she was also admitted by leading medical schools in UK. She made the informed decision after she balanced all factors. I supported her decision although I could afford to pay the expenses for her today.
作者: Shootastar 時間: 12-11-9 12:45
回復 阿飯 的帖子
"Talking about standard there is no dispute that the process of dumbing down also happens here back home. "A" level in the 70s when I took it was a lot harder and the same could be said with each successive passing decade. The other point I want to raise is that in the run-up to the handover and the few years following it the admission standard of the medical school here suffered a dramatic drop in standard so much so that you could earn an entrance ticket with results like 2 Cs 1 D etc. Despite the dread of falling standard, graduates from those years still mostly turn out to be competent doctors, and there has not been any rise in professional negligence or misconduct either. By all likelihood, these doctors are now forming the backbone in the middle hierarchy in the establishment teaching the next generation of doctors. It seems we Chinese place too much emphasis on the importance of examinations so much as that it only benefit the private tuition market and destroy our children's interest and joy in the pursuit of knowledge."
If there was one or two students with 2Cs 1D admitted to the medical schools in 80+ or early 90+, they were exceptions. In 80+, many bright students would like to study portable degrees for immigration purposes. However, they attracted no more than 50 to 100 top students (only happened in one or two years). The medical students remained the top top top of its cohorts.
作者: 阿飯 時間: 12-11-9 13:44
I am glad that despite our differences in opinions, the discussion has so far been conducted in a civilized manner.
I suppose it's a matter of choices depending on one's priorities. But certainly at Cambridge as reflected by its course structure we could agree that in addition to preparing one to become a doctor the emphasis is also placed on one to becoming a scientist as well. If one intends to play a role at the forefront of medical and related scientific researches, no doubt, Cambridge would trump anytime any day and paves the way for a career in academia.
There 's no intention on my part to slag off or belittle the reputations or achievements of HKU. I am sure with the great British tradition it inherited it will for years churn out competent doctors to serve the territory.
As regards to the story it was from the professor of Paediatrics at that time who confided in me that they've lost about 50% of top-notched students and consequently they had to take in students with much much lower grades. He lamented to me then that they could not afford to choose only the crème de la crème any more. The situation only started to reverse a year or so following the handover, no doubt the fear of 1997 played a large part in the sudden reversal of fortune for the school then. Whether he was exaggerating I did not know but one thing I was sure was that the top students for several years all ended up overseas - and we are talking in the late 80s to early 90s when there would be at most 3 or 4 8"A" or 9"A" ers in HKCEE each year. HKCEE and " A" level was a lot harder then what we had now.
Anyway, all things being equal, pedagogical factors in consideration as well, a hard working and dedicated child would succeed equally whether he or she ends up at HKU or other big names. A good doctor is not gauged by the name of his or her university nor his or her stellar academic records - he or she who listens with understandings, feels with his heart and defends his patient's interest and always put foremost the concerns of his patients is the best doctor. Sadly the opposite is more of the norms nowadays and I really feel sorry for those doctors ended up working for franchised clinic chain who have to double as salesmen for beauty products during or after consultations.
Free market economic force should not be allowed a free rein in every sectors. It corrupts when it can.
作者: Shootastar 時間: 12-11-9 15:19
回復 阿飯 的帖子
I am glad that despite our differences in opinions, the discussion has so far been conducted in a civilized manner. [I am also glad that I can have a thorough discussion with you which are based on facts although we have different opinions in certain aspects. I hate others who vilify and maliciously attacks othersby distasteful comments or remarks.]
I suppose it's a matter of choices depending on one's priorities. But certainly at Cambridge as reflected by its course structure we could agree that in addition to preparing one to become a doctor the emphasis is also placed on one to becoming a scientist as well. If one intends to play a role at the forefront of medical and related scientific researches, no doubt, Cambridge would trump anytime any day and paves the way for a career in academia. [It is beyond doubt that Cambridge can equip one well if he chooses the academic or scientific research path.]
There 's no intention on my part to slag off or belittle the reputations or achievements of HKU. I am sure with the great British tradition it inherited it will for years churn out competent doctors to serve the territory. [I am certain that you have no intention to belittle any one. If I guess it correctly, you may be from HKU.]
As regards to the story it was from the professor of Paediatrics at that time who confided in me that they've lost about 50% of top-notched students and consequently they had to take in students with much much lower grades. He lamented to me then that they could not afford to choose only the crème de la crème any more. The situation only started to reverse a year or so following the handover, no doubt the fear of 1997 played a large part in the sudden reversal of fortune for the school then. Whether he was exaggerating I did not know but one thing I was sure was that the top students for several years all ended up overseas - and we are talking in the late 80s to early 90s when there would be at most 3 or 4 8"A" or 9"A" ers in HKCEE each year. HKCEE and " A" level was a lot harder then what we had now. [You reminded me that in 70+, you needed 9 points (3C, BCD or ACE) to be admitted to the only medical school in Hong Kong (if you had small luck. If you had 8 points (2B1D or ACD), you definitely had a place in the medical school.]
Anyway, all things being equal, pedagogical factors in consideration as well, a hard working and dedicated child would succeed equally whether he or she ends up at HKU or other big names. A good doctor is not gauged by the name of his or her university nor his or her stellar academic records - he or she who listens with understandings, feels with his heart and defends his patient's interest and always put foremost the concerns of his patients is the best doctor. Sadly the opposite is more of the norms nowadays and I really feel sorry for those doctors ended up working for franchised clinic chain who have to double as salesmen for beauty products during or after consultations. [I can't agree with you more.]
Free market economic force should not be allowed a free rein in every sectors. It corrupts when it can. [This is another topic which attracts a heated debate. The more we debate, the more reasons will come out.]
作者: ANChan59 時間: 12-11-10 13:08 標題: 回覆：How hard is it to get into Oxbridge?
As my boy will apply local Medic schools this year, even he didn't apply Cambridge Medic. Your discussions provided some useful info and thoughts for other consideration.
Mature discussion is wonderful and have my respect here.
作者: 4eyesDad 時間: 12-11-12 22:23
回復 阿飯 的帖子
My heart felt heavy when I heard a Hong Kong student chose HKU medicine instead of taking up a Cambridge medicine offer ostensibly because of recent unusual barrier to enter the local medical profession. I don't know whether cost may play a more dominant role in affecting the decision to forego the chance to study at Cambridge but I think we Hongkongers are having a raw deal comparing with SIngaporeans who may obtain full financial support from their government.
作者: Shootastar 時間: 12-11-13 09:43
My personal opinion is that the medical licentiate examination should be set at a level with 50% passing rate. I understand that the passing rate of the overseas lawyer qualifying examination is around 70% each year.
作者: 11Daddy 時間: 12-11-13 15:48
"My personal opinion is that the medical licentiate examination should be set at a level with 50% passing rate. "
In that case, I would be more relieved.
作者: 11Daddy 時間: 12-11-13 18:13
Otherwise, my learned friends may suspect there is an ulterior motive.
作者: 阿飯 時間: 12-11-13 19:15
Ridiculous though it may seem, a bunch of doctors with British professional qualifications and trained in the British tradition is pondering the validity of such training that had put them there in the first place. Contradicting as it may sound they also like to invite external examiners from England or other western countries to let the world know that their own trainees are on par with the standard elsewhere in the commonwealth. Absurd as it may look they still value and use the same professional qualifications that their very local trainees are aiming at . Such schizophrenic mindset however is not very staunch in its principle for a mere letter from the great Donald Duck could easily reverse it and put on hold the practice it operated. No professional organization genuinely overseeing and safeguarding standard in the interest of the public in the commonwealth would succumb this way, blatantly betraying its principle unless you believe that the standard from the rest of the commonwealth bobbles like a buoy after the handover and it takes a great and astute political figure like Donald Duck to tell them otherwise.
Plenty of excuses are abound but they all require some form of pretzel logic for them to stand to reason. Protectionism is fine as long as it serves the best interest of the public and I really don't see the very few local graduates from reputable medical schools overseas who have gone through similar if not better training and well-versed in the local lexicon ( afterall they are from HK and it doesn't take long for them to adapt ) to perform differently from their counterparts here at least under supervision in a hospital settings - unless they have some highly confidential and compelling statistics since the handover to prove otherwise. The fear of competition seems to be the root cause for such unfair discrimination - heard of the expression 出前一丁 from some private practitioners in the leans days ? I also remember the story a few years back when a dignitary from SE Asia had flown in specially for the professor of Orthopaedics from Stanford who was on sabbatical leave at HKU to perform a knee replacement operation and the arrangement was all hunky-dory until the last minute when it was all called off and a replacement was made with a locally famous surgeon instead who had made a qualm - the reason being at least on paper that he was not fit to practise under the provisional registration he held at that time ( but it was not such a problem in a teaching capacity whilst at HKU ). In the end the infuriated dignitary had to be pacified by the professor that the standard and reputation of his substitute is just as good to allow the operation to proceed.
The increasing amalgamation with the mainland economically and politically will ultimately destroy what very little autonomy and British legacies we have been enjoying and taking for granted and at the pace at which the administration is trying to dismantle the last few prestiges that set us apart from the mainland and making up excuses in the process for further integration with everything mainland I have to mull over that indeed it wasn't a planned move to deny us the opportunities to set things right - which include the acute shortage of doctors we are facing now in the public sector. It just needs excuses in a stepwise fashion for changes and acceptances to finally occur and foolishly or unknowingly the GMC here may be a willing accomplice to this end. Precedent and a volt-face had been seen before with it and I don't have much faith why it would not buckle again. After all the people who sit there belong to the same bunch who acquiesced for the centenary fiasco at HKU recently and they are not known to be steadfast when it comes to integrity.
Let's hope the GMC is not doing us a disservice.
作者: 11Daddy 時間: 12-11-13 20:14
"Such schizophrenic mindset however is not very staunch in its principle for a mere letter from the great Donald Duck could easily reverse it and put on hold the practice it operated. No professional organization genuinely overseeing and safeguarding standard in the interest of the public in the commonwealth would succumb this way, blatantly betraying its principle ......" It seems Donald Duck's son is more equal, may I be enlightened the rationale behind?
作者: Shootastar 時間: 12-11-14 12:27
回復 阿飯 的帖子
"Let's hope the GMC is not doing us a disservice."
To be honest, I have no trust and faith on GMC on what it had done in our medical education. I remember that in early 2000, both medical schools were forced to cut their spaces to 125 because the GMC said there were too many doctors despite the strong opposing voices from both deans. Their protectionism and shortsightness leads us to the point that we are substantially short of doctors. It helps create the terms "月球人" and "星球人" - meaning a doctor earning one million (一球) in a week or a month. The population of Singapore is about 60% of ours but it has 3 medical schools with a total annual intake of about 500 medical students. Further Singapore still allows graduates from Australia, UK or other spaces to practice in Singapore, With the spaces extended to 210 commencing this year, we can only produce 420 medical doctors annually. I can foresee that the problem of shortage of medical doctors would still go on unless the GMC changes it ridiculous policy - by setting a very very high bar in its licentiate examination.
作者: 11Daddy 時間: 12-11-14 15:17
I can foresee that the problem of shortage of medical doctors would still go on unless the GMC" changes it ridiculous policy - by setting a very very high bar in its licentiate examination." clap hands
作者: 4eyesDad 時間: 12-12-7 17:50
For the third year in a row, Oxford this year received more than 17,000 applications for its undergraduate courses.
About 11,000 of the applicants are invited for interviews at Oxford in December 2012 to compete for about 3,000 places.
Interviews are only one part of the selection process at Oxford: academic ability and potential is assessed through a range of measures in addition to interviews, including predicted grades; attained grades; personal statement; teacher’s reference; and aptitude tests.
The interviews are designed to push students to think, not recite specific facts or answers.
My source told me that HK students are typically strong in reciting facts but weak in other aspects, especially thinking.
作者: slamai 時間: 13-1-12 01:02
The results (offers) for Oxford applicants are out now.
作者: 11Daddy 時間: 13-1-12 06:53
Each interview was conducted by 2 professors. ( Actually they are the potential tutors of your D and S. I believe whether the potential tutors consider that the applicant can communicate effectively with them is an important consideration. )
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