教育王國
標題: 國際學校學生的出路 [打印本頁]
作者: elodie 時間: 12-5-10 11:03 標題: 國際學校學生的出路
各位家長，本人都十分認同國際學校的教育理念和模式。但學生畢業後無論在本港或國外升讀大學，中文能力都十分有限，以現在巿場來看，中文能力似乎相當重要。你們有什麼看法呢？
作者: Chole 時間: 12-5-10 12:23
針無兩頭利....
作者: terryhau 時間: 12-5-10 12:39
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totally agree with you
作者: elmostoney 時間: 12-5-10 12:50
係屋企自己同小朋友做多d中文, 去唔到本地程度, 都要有基本能力, 我相信做得到. 而且而家世代唔同, 出來做野中文都係打字, 好多新一代都係用拼音輸入, 只要有足夠辭彙同了解中文語法結構即可, 最緊要父母點睇. 要小朋友有functional level中文, 定係要佢有比較優美文筆, 不過我個人覺得, 即使本地學生, 文筆都唔見得好, 只能夠話比 is 小朋友 流利.
另外, 讀書唔係淨係開心, 教育理念呢d. 究竟 IS 同 LS train出來嘅小朋友有何不同? 我諗呢樣要父母自己衡量. 個人覺得概括d講, is 小朋友 problem solving skills同主動性比較好, 而呢d先係時下同將來職場所需, 而非一味考試夠高分. 出來做野, 老闆係睇能力, 唔係睇考試幾叻. 亦都冇老闆鍾意下下講到自己要求咁清楚, 好似試卷咁, 梗係講個大概, 員工自己摸索. 我覺得而家好多新一代做野都係, 事事要人講得一清二楚, 跟住框框做, 欠主動性同應變能力, 呢個先係死穴.
作者: terryhau 時間: 12-5-10 13:46
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講得好好。我信任IS課程都係因為唔想小朋友死讀書，為考試而死記， 考完後唔知係咩。 HK係重視中文， 不過英文 更重要， 好多工冇要求好好中文， 文章好好 （可能睇邊行）. 不過如果係HK 英文唔得都係做比較做低層次工作(我個人認為）。最重要的都係冇填鴨式教育， 小朋友在IS下教育都會多自信，國際視野等
作者: HKTHK 時間: 12-5-10 13:55
Agree with you that Chinese is essential. There are IS that puts a lot of emphasis on Chinese such as CIS, ISF and SIS. Arguably, they can even be better than LS in Mandarin. I think many parents now recognize what you are seeing and these schools are getting more and more difficult to get in.
作者: torunpoland 時間: 12-5-10 14:19
我家庭很認同國際學校的教學方法, 打算安排孩子讀國際學校.
正所謂, 針無兩頭利, 我打算親自自己教孩子中文. 老實說, 大家試下看看目前本地小學(包括直資)的中文課程, 我相信你也會一頭霧水! 如此學中文, 我很質疑成效. 我得弄清一點, 我要求的是學中文, 不是學中文字.
作者: terryhau 時間: 12-5-10 14:51
我的小朋友讀過直資小學(few months)，不過同IS真係好大距離，雖然一般直資小學都sale英文好，活動教學，但最後都係要跟HK考試模式，同LS學校無異
作者: CAKEMOON 時間: 12-5-10 15:53
I don't think the Chinese Standard of local school students is "super" good. Yes, the textbooks are teaching lots of difficult words and proverbs which we seldom use in daily communication -- except you want to be a writer. Many of the professionals in Hong Kong say lawyers and doctors use English more than Chinese.
作者: elodie 時間: 12-5-10 16:32
Thx for all reply.
作者: HKdevil 時間: 12-5-10 23:21 標題: 回覆：elodie 的帖子
Chinese is def important, so u can send them to local school for primary and intl for secondary.
作者: bobbycheung 時間: 12-5-10 23:46
HKdevil 發表於 12-5-10 23:21 
Chinese is def important, so u can send them to local school for primary and intl for secondary.
...
作者: bobbycheung 時間: 12-5-11 10:33
本帖最後由 bobbycheung 於 12-5-11 10:47 編輯
http://news.mingpao.com/20120511/gfb1.htm
"........入學輪候名單已多達2000人，個別家長更為子女申請2016/17學年入學........學校收生無年齡下限，家長在子女出生後，可以先到先得方式為子女預先報名" If it is to go on like this, moms will soon have to rush into hosiptal to give birth to their children and immediately afterwards rush to the school to hand in their new born babies' application forms.
作者: william9_2003 時間: 12-5-11 16:24
本帖最後由 william9_2003 於 12-5-11 16:27 編輯
國際學校因為佢既中文課程係以中文為第二語言既學生而設, 所以只係著重日常溝通,簡單寫作閱讀為主 ,唔會加埋古文,文言文 落去課程度
而本地學校 LS 直資學校 ,因為佢既中文課程係專俾 母語為中文既學生,所以一定會深好多,會有古文 如 唐詩,宋詞,元曲,文言文等, 而且仲要係考試上分高手,如果唔係點解年年會考中文科都有四成幾人中文唔合格, 得幾個 % 考生考到 A /5* 
當然本地學校 LS 直資學校 既學生想英文叻可以選修英國文學 .想中文叻既可以選修中國文學 .
作者: chongnicole 時間: 12-5-11 17:23
喜歡國際學校教育模式的理由很清晰，Local school有些問題確實是很難接受。
不過，去過不少IS Open day/school tour，又和很多有小孩在IS和LS的朋友談過，感受越來越複雜。
好像除了最好的4、5間，國際學校在中文和學術方面都不是十分理想。明白它們是根據某些地方的system，其他地區小朋友是無亞洲咁谷，但距離真的很大。如果是非亞裔生，過幾年回國繼續學業問題不大，但全球名大學對亞裔學生的積分要求都較高（多得中國學生），小朋友可能吳夠競爭力。
不是想說國際學校不好，只是分享一點看法。非常熱愛IS的家長請勿見怪。
作者: bobbycheung 時間: 12-5-11 21:45
chongnicole 發表於 12-5-11 17:23
喜歡國際學校教育模式的理由很清晰，Local school有些問題確實是很難接受。
不過，去過不少IS Open day/sch ...
作者: chongnicole 時間: 12-5-11 22:43
幾個方面，去school tour時看課室、壁布貼堂的功課，真是淺。又和幾個同時有小朋友在IS及名LS的朋友談過，非語文功課的深淺相差亦頗大。
讀IS英語流利是必然，但語文只是渠道，實學亦很重要。
我覺得好的IS是比名LS好，因為它的教學理念、愉快的學習氛圍是好珍貴。但如果是一般IS，中文又吳得、學術又平平，咁父母每年付了~10萬學費去栽培小朋友，是否得到想要的成果！？
最近去一間IS school tour，看它的刊物，介紹學生升學情況，有一部分是香港排名較低的大學，當然大學只是人生的一個里程碑，但多少會有點失望。
作者: Atticus 時間: 12-5-11 23:04
chongnicole 發表於 12-5-11 22:43
幾個方面，去school tour時看課室、壁布貼堂的功課，真是淺。又和幾個同時有小朋友在IS及名LS的朋友談過， ...
作者: chongnicole 時間: 12-5-11 23:20
無謂開名upset其他家長。
只是分享一些看法，絕對吳想令任何人吳開心。
作者: Alnita 時間: 12-5-12 09:55 標題: 回覆：chongnicole 的帖子
咁你可以PM D學校名比我嘛？我唔介意，實在好想知。
作者: BeBeMa1012 時間: 12-5-12 12:13 標題: 回覆：國際學校學生的出路
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作者: chongnicole 時間: 12-5-12 13:24
這只是我的觀察和想法，何必開名傷害就讀的小朋友和家長。
大家幫小朋友報名前，去學校看看，睇吓學校的刊物、上網看看university placement的track record、 問吓相熟朋友的經驗（不要只問一次，多數人第一次講都是客氣說話居多）。
作者: 24112006 時間: 12-5-18 09:15
淨系個升小一派位制度已經唔公平啦....IS好處系令小朋友"開腦", 時常有outing同埋做實驗....令佢地對一些抽象的思考會更易明白.
作者: nintendo 時間: 12-5-18 09:51
chongnicole 發表於 12-5-11 22:43
幾個方面，去school tour時看課室、壁布貼堂的功課，真是淺。又和幾個同時有小朋友在IS及名LS的朋友談過，非語文功課的深淺相差亦頗大。
.
香港小朋友好多幼稚園就要背乘數表，國際學校就平均 p3 先開始學乘數，但高中一樣讀到 calculus，到大學都一樣讀得上 differential equation
香港小朋友幼稚園學 d 英文生字，有咁長得咁長，policeman，xylophone，telephone；國際學校小學重學緊 am are the 呢 d sight words，要比，大家可以話香港小朋友英文好過鬼妹，嘩，信心又番黎喇
有心要 show off 學生的表現，大可以好似某名女校咁，將學生的作品，由老師潤筆再潤筆，(重未計交功課前由補習老師修改) 先放出黎比人睇，個個剃到嘩嘩聲，不過有幾成係學生真跡自己估
國際學校在初小階段不主張隨便修改學生的作品，有時串錯字都唔會理，最緊要小朋友做得開心；當然到高小老師會執著 d
作者: terryhau 時間: 12-5-18 10:26
香港敎育有幾好個個心裡有數，經濟許可會去IS,不然留在LS都要面對，講得好就讓自己心裡會好d吧
作者: annie40 時間: 12-5-18 13:32
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外面D家长见我地嘻嘻哈哈, 以为IS 好易入, 又唔洗点读书. 交学费就得, 仲怕课程太浅, 拖垮孩子前途, 真是美丽的误会吧! 大家要弄清楚, IS 的中文是国际学校, 中文是可選或不選的一科, 要学得多好, 是家长和孩子的责任大于学校的责任. 世界上那有perfect life, perfect education, perfect choice.
这里再提醒是一般念完小学或初中的孩子考进IS, 功课上写的只是practical english, 四平八稳, 难有creative writing 的作品, 和文科上渴求的天马行空的天份. 大家唔好甘贪婪, 以为教育可以用formula 算到尽, 读完中文读英文, 就一定最理想嘞!
我知道自己里排有D懆, 是罪过, 但是唔讲得直接D, 很多家长不明白, 还会误会下去的.
作者: annie40 時間: 12-5-18 14:40
回復 chongnicole 的帖子
我覺得好的IS是比名LS好，因為它的教學理念、愉快的學習氛圍是好珍貴。但如果是一般IS，中文又吳得、學術又平平，咁父母每年付了~10萬學費去栽培小朋友，是否得到想要的成果！？
*** **** ***
我甘愿年付了~10萬,20萬,30萬學費, 是基与家庭财力可以负担, 让小朋友在优良的学习环境中长大, 希望其有光明正大的品格, 有保护自我的能力, 有装备面对未来的挑战. 有仁爱帮助弱小.
如果有家长想要的成果是孩子最终入了一流名校如Harvard, 那容我在此分享, 今年好友的孩子刚给Harvard and Stanford (香港只有两位学生) 同时收取了, 是那间年付10萬學費的便宜平常IS的 学生. 从少是0% tution, 唔识中文, 得闲或唔得闲都四处当义工, 参与教会, 热爱生命, 热爱挑战, 还有阿妈阿爸是打工仔, 忙碌非常, 但爱心无穷, 还要收养有障碍的小妹, 要数兄弟帮忙轮流照顾的. 生活支出要仔细, 买东西要讲价.
当大家年觉得年付10萬學費栽培小朋友, 在盆算成果时, 请参考以上, 反思人生的遗漏, 然后调节对孩子的合理期望吧!
其实大家可以忘记那10萬大元, 节省那10萬, 如父母能做好家庭教育, 孩子必定出类拔萃, 一流大学是搶着要吧!
作者: bobbycheung 時間: 12-5-18 14:57
本帖最後由 bobbycheung 於 12-5-18 15:01 編輯
annie40 發表於 12-5-18 14:40
回復 chongnicole 的帖子
我覺得好的IS是比名LS好，因為它的教學理念、愉快的學習氛圍是好珍貴。但如果是 ...
Annie,
你又真係有D燥. lol 我就係嗰D想孩子最终能夠進入一流名校的家長. 聽你講, 我都有反思過. 最後的結論是希望孩子 好似你咁講 "在优良的学习环境中长大, 希望其有光明正大的品格, 有保护自我的能力, 有装备面对未来的挑战. 有仁爱帮助弱小.....," 最好又能進入一流名校 :)
PS: Oh, 仲有揾到份好工, 嫁個好老公..........
Bobby
作者: annie40 時間: 12-5-18 15:42
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最好又能進入一流名校 *
****
我的secret dream 都比你讲埋出离, 做人想虚伪D 都唔得. 你间学校铺排得当, 机会好高, 我果间就要靠打'天才波', 随时富贵, 又或者闭隘. 天晓得. 按多劳多得的理论, 闭隘是较合理的期望吧!
做得来的便是好工作. 收得人家的合理报酬, 当然要有点料子吧!
阁下真是个好爸爸, 连嫁個好老公..........都想定先. 差在唔讲埋生番两三个可爱小B,
作者: bobbycheung 時間: 12-5-18 16:10
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嫁個好老公一定要想定先. 因為以佢家吓嘅表現, 要揾個老公(好唔好另計), 相信比進入一流名校更難.
我唔夠胆提生番两三个可爱小B, 因為驚要我幫佢take care.
作者: chongnicole 時間: 12-5-18 17:07
回復 annie40 的帖子
躁什麼呢？其他人吳可以有吳同意見？一定要同你想法一樣先啱，先令你吳動氣？
是否仁愛幫助別人、熱愛生命，和什麼學校無關，這是題外話。
今時今日仲覺得作為香港人，覺得吳識中文係無問題，Good luck。難道最近那個品學兼優的南亞裔律師搵工到處碰壁，吳搞起警鐘？
對小朋友的愛和教育係無私的奉獻，但選學校、揀邊度學課外活動都是看cost benefit的，這是理性考慮。
作者: 21Ckid 時間: 12-5-18 19:48
I plan for my kid to study in IS as I want him to have a happy childhood, rather than thinking too much about future career and the like. However, if you do think of $$ he/she is going to ultimately earn, i strongly advise you to go the LS route. HKU/CU/HKUST in particular are the best "viable" choices and it is easier to go their via LS. There are only a handful of overseas universities better than these 3 if the kid will work in HK, and it is now getting extremely, extremely difficult to get in without good family connection due to the competition from mainland and indian students (who scores way better than HK students, and can study 20 hours a day). It is nothing like the case when we were applying colleges years ago, and it will only get worse the time when my and your kids apply years later.
If you think IS is a shortcut to these colleges, forget it.
作者: hkparent 時間: 12-5-18 22:37
There are many overseas univ better than the 3 univ in Hk. Ivy league in the us and Oxbridge/lse/Russell group in the uk.
By the way, I'm looking for a local school that does not produce students with Hk accent English. It's quite embarrassing/disappointing in work meetings to learn that somebody who graduates from a Hk university/elite local school to speak the Hk accent while another meeting participant only graduates from an IS but speaks fluent and native English.
Perhaps we can say this - if you are middle to upper middle class, go for a decent IS ($100,000+ per annum)
If you're middle class, can try ESF ($60,000 per annum)
If you're lower to middle class, go to DSS
Is this sensible? You can cite many examples of famous/rich people in Hk sending their kids to IS.
作者: PoohsBaby 時間: 12-5-18 23:05
21Ckid, your statement "There are only a handful of overseas universities better than these 3" is VERY WRONG. There are plenty of very good overseas universities, some much much better that these 3 HK Uni. There must be a very good reason why so many HK local family want to send their kids to IS, the crappy local education system. The competition to enter IS is so fierce that even expatriate kids can't get a place. I fully agree with hkparent , it is very very embarassing to hear HK Uni graduates speak English .... and it is getting worse.
作者: friendlyguy 時間: 12-5-18 23:41
Please note that the original statement made by 21Ckid is: "There are only a handful of overseas universities better than these 3 if the kid will work in HK,"
作者: bobbycheung 時間: 12-5-18 23:46
回復 PoohsBaby 的帖子
// it is very very embarassing to hear HK Uni graduates speak English //
Wait until you hear 崔世安的普通話
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwOemRiuO5A
Sorry, 離咗題.
作者: friendlyguy 時間: 12-5-18 23:52
本帖最後由 friendlyguy 於 12-5-18 23:53 編輯
I have to say that I would not embarass when I hear a Hong Konger speak English with Hong Kong accent (that's the way I speak English) as with Singaporean speak with Singapore accent, Aussie speak with Austrailian accent, Scottish speak with Scottish accent, American speak with American accent, Welsh speak with Welsh accent..............................................
作者: 21Ckid 時間: 12-5-19 00:19
I think there are at most 10-20 colleges which are considered better than the local big 3 in HK and China, and getting into these is extremely difficult. The mainlanders, indians and koreans are squeezing out hongkongers in recent years and it is much more difficult than in our days, and would only get worse. Some of my friends are having their kids going to college this year and that's why i know. The local big 3 are much easier 2nd choices.
I certainly hope my kid will speak good accents as, sadly, many hongkongers (like you) and mainlands look down upon those who can't and discriminate against fellow countrymen. But I certinaly wouldn't feel ashamed of my own spoken english. Actually, one of my gweilo friend told me the way hongkongers treat them here made many of his fellows (he insisted he wasn't one of them) made them feel so superior and look down upon locals. I have lived abroad for some years and I can say the discrimination is far less there. It is a sad fact, but still, one should be proud of his own language and birth place before others may respect you.
作者: EvaKim 時間: 12-5-19 00:19
Agreed w friendlyguy, similar to people in China speaking Mandarin, they have different accent because of local dialect. I believe if we can communicate fluently, there is nothing wrong speaking English with HK accent.
作者: hkparent 時間: 12-5-19 00:23
Anyway, has anyone tried Selin Chinese? Is it good? Whether LS or IS we have to admit that Chinese is important.
作者: Atticus 時間: 12-5-19 00:38
回復 21Ckid 的帖子
I agree. Look at ESF for example. They openly discriminate against local HK people. It is stated on their website that they give priority to kids coming from non-Cantonese speaking families. But Cantonese is the mainstream/primary language/dialect spoken by 90% of the population in HK! This is absolutely ridiculous - ESF receive government subsidy, which means HK taxpayers' money (i.e., our money) and they expressly discriminate against us!! Nonetheless, HK parents are still dying to send their kids to ESF and some will lie on the admission application forms (claiming that the kids and the parents themselves can't speak Cantonese) in order to gain a place at ESF!
作者: william9_2003 時間: 12-5-19 01:02
本帖最後由 william9_2003 於 12-5-19 01:32 編輯
其實 IS , LS,海外大學, 本地大學畢業生 ,佢地本身水準都各有好,亦各有壞 , 我係公司亦都見盡呢 d員工 既好壞 . 作為僱主, IS以及海外大學學生英文的確普遍俾本地學生叻,口音方面比較好,但當然亦有某 d 番書仔只係英文叻而能力欠佳,做事低能,似係屋企人俾錢幫佢讀 IS 浸咸水 .而本地生方面,雖然佢地英文程度唔及番書仔,但佢地有d學生英文都真係唔差,講得都好流利.當然亦有差既例子呀. 講真,本地生亦有好叻好醒既例子,連番書仔都唔夠佢地鬥 , 我講個我公司約兩年前請人既例子俾你地聽 
我公司兩年前請人,吸引左好多畢業生應徵 ,係最後關頭, HR 果邊傾向請浸過咸水既番書仔(佢地好多以前讀開 IS) ,覺得佢地英文比較叻,又有埋 master degree ,但我留意到 有個本地 中大BBA 應徵者,佢係本地著名英中出身,會考科科A拔尖再攞獎學金考入中大.係校內成績又係頂尖,上過莊, 而係面試得知因為佢係單身綜援家庭長大,屋企窮困,所以佢要盡快搵錢幫補屋企所以無讀 master ,係大學讀書都係靠獎學金加兼職為生. 佢係面試表現亦非常出色 ,所以我同 HR 果邊淆過好多個回合 ,又同佢地打賭 ,先可以請呢個本地畢業生同埋幾個番書仔睇下邊個叻 d.
結果係呢兩年,個本地中大畢業生既表現比番書仔優勝得多,而且做事非常醒目,甚至醒目過公司好多所謂資深員工,好有領袖才能,而且又幫公司賺大錢,相反,個幾過有 master degree 既番書仔表現平平無期,唔得醒目,得英文叻 . 係上個月,果個本地薑(我打賭要求請既中大畢業生)已經升左做部門主管,入左管理階層, 當然果幾個番書仔唔服佢,覺得俾個本地薑管住佢, 但公司政策係有能者居之.
所以唔係英文叻就大曬,所以就算係 IS 學生,都要有機智,都要訓練培養點樣做一個出色又醒目既領袖
作者: Mighty 時間: 12-5-19 08:25
我相信問１０個IS PARENT,個個都知英文is not everything. Otherwise why so many IS parents sending their children to extra Chinese tuitions？ IS 不単是為了英文一科的。
上面有人提到香港人英文有「香」音不是錯、対、不是錯、只是可以容易改善的地方、従小開始、便可以改到、為何不改？ 好似葉劉、英文了得、不容致疑、但就満口「香」音、非常可惜！！ 無論IS OR LS,毎人都規定学IPA、発音就有機会逆転了。
作者: nintendo 時間: 12-5-19 09:37
如果英文好，我又唔會理係香港音定印度音
就算係美國，new york 同 houston 口音都唔同
其實一般社交，外國人大部份唔會理你 d 口音
讀國際學校係為學英文？係唔係睇得學校教育簡單了。
學校教育教小朋友的點只英文一科？
選擇國際學校的，一般都是因為唔喜歡本地教育。
教知識比學生唔難，但要學生真正理解就唔易。
當然，都有 d 家長係真係因為英文一科而選國際學校，咁我勸佢地考慮清楚先喇。
作者: nintendo 時間: 12-5-19 09:47
friendlyguy 發表於 12-5-18 23:52
I have to say that I would not embarass when I hear a Hong Konger speak English with Hong Kong accen ...
口音問題，在 BK 經常討論，會有一批人針對批評某 D 口音
好難講，好多人連明珠台都唔睇，淨係靠睇下土豆網的荷里活片聽英文
總覺得英文口音就係咁
當年讀大學，PROFESSOR 來自 MOSCOW，有獨特口音
好采佢冇黎香港教書，唔係 D 青娃仔一定睇唔起佢
作者: nintendo 時間: 12-5-19 09:57
回復 william9_2003 的帖子
你呢個 CASE，都可以話係富家子 vs 窮家子
做野夠唔夠搏，可能同家庭經濟背境有關
朋友請了一個某本地大學畢業生，慘過湊仔
作者: nintendo 時間: 12-5-19 10:32
Atticus 發表於 12-5-19 00:38
回復 21Ckid 的帖子
I agree. Look at ESF for example. They openly discriminate against local HK pe ...
esf 成立有其歷史原因
將入學資格定位在 "non-cantonese speaking" 亦有原因和需要
我覺得合情合理
作者: Chole 時間: 12-5-19 11:02
回復 EvaKim 的帖子
Agree! Actually I think most if not all of the gweilos don't mind about HK accent in the workplace (unless you are in the linguistic field). It is the HongKongers who feel uncomfortable.
作者: 4eyesDad 時間: 12-5-19 11:19
Don't under-estimate the importance of accent (口音) .
Accent defines where you come from or where you belong.
In a status conscious society, accent defines class.
Many HK parents put their kids to local international schools without paying much attention to accent.
The result can be, well,...very odd.
A living example is a weather girl from TVB Pearl.
She has a complete Chinese name.
She has a complete Chinese look.
She obviously went to an international school in HK and I won't be surprised that she (or her father) knows someone in the TV industry.
When she reads the weather report, her English accent sounds like an untuned violin.
Question 1: Do you want your kid to speak English with that kind of accent?
Question 2: Is weather reporting the best job a local international school graduate can get?
作者: bobbycheung 時間: 12-5-19 11:39
本帖最後由 bobbycheung 於 12-5-19 11:49 編輯
回復 4eyesDad 的帖子
Question 2: Is weather reporting the best job a local international school graduate can get?
Answer: What if she actually likes the job? 
作者: 4eyesDad 時間: 12-5-19 11:53
回復 bobbycheung 的帖子
She may enjoy her weather reporting job.
Would the majority of the audience find her accent a torture?
I just hope she can find another job.
Isn't it a shame that, after investing tons of money in international schooling, one can only get a minimum wage job?
作者: Atticus 時間: 12-5-19 14:13
本帖最後由 Atticus 於 12-5-19 20:40 編輯
nintendo 發表於 12-5-19 10:32
esf 成立有其歷史原因
將入學資格定位在 "non-cantonese speaking" 亦有原因和需要
我覺得合情合理
Pls do enlighten me as to why ESF use HK taxpayers' money and yet discriminate against local HK people. They won't even properly interview the applicants. If they had interviewed the applicants and then made their selection based on a number of factors, e.g., interview performance, language skills, sibilings priority, staff priority, etc. then I can understand. I am not totally against certain categories of applicants (e.g., expats and I mean genuine expats with work visas and not those who have been here for 10+ years with HK permanent ID cards) having prioirty over others. What I find objectionable is this outright discrimination against local HK (i.e., Cantonese-speaking) applicants.
作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 12-5-19 14:40
Atticus 發表於 12-5-19 00:38 
回復 21Ckid 的帖子
I agree. Look at ESF for example. They openly discriminate against local HK people ...
In the not too distant future, China will be a great country leading the world in many fields, Chinese will become the de-facto international language and Chinese professionals will be in such high demand that they fly all over the world to work on all kinds of projects and assignments. Hence there will be Chinese international schools springing up in every country, staffed by Chinese nationals and catering to children of visiting Chinese professionals, and as an aside, some locals who aspire to be associated with anything Chinese. Because these schools will make it easier for Chinese professionals to work in their country, many foreign governments will even go one step further and subsidize these schools.
Oh, but then we hear some local people saying, God damn these Chinese international schools, they place such emphasis on Chinese and openly discriminate against us locals and our local language, heck, we even spend our tax money on these schools, this is absolutely ridiculous.
作者: Atticus 時間: 12-5-19 14:57
FattyDaddy 發表於 12-5-19 14:40
Well, there are many Hongkong schools which openly discriminates against non-Chinese speaking foreig ...
I am sorry but I don't agree with your comment. Your comment is simply based on some hypothetical situation that may or may not happen in the future. I am dead serious about this issue and will write to the Education Secretary for an explanation. This old boys' club admission system is so colonial and outdated. If gweilos want priority over local people then ESF can do their own funding and stop receiving government subsidy, just like the other international schools.
作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 12-5-19 15:02
Atticus 發表於 12-5-19 14:57
ESF can do their own funding and stop receiving government subsidy ...
I'm saying no more because I will only be repeating myself.
作者: Atticus 時間: 12-5-19 15:14
FattyDaddy 發表於 12-5-19 15:02
Think of the reason behind the government subsidy, it is already explained in my original post.
I'm ...
No, sorry, you haven't. You simply used some analogy which is out of context and not to the point.
作者: Atticus 時間: 12-5-19 15:36
Atticus 發表於 12-5-19 15:14
No, sorry, you haven't. You simply used some analogy which is out of context and not to the point. ...
Ditto, FattyDaddy. Just like how you didn't get the point that most others tried to make on another thread regarding King George V hiring some substandard teacher to teach Chinese. I may be wrong but I suspect you are a former ESF student and your kid(s) now go to ESF and you love ESF so much that you'll defend them with your life... Nice to be so loyal to your old school :)
作者: awah112 時間: 12-5-19 16:02
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作者: 4eyesDad 時間: 12-5-20 07:01
Perhaps parents should not ask the utilitarian question before sending their kids to any particular type of school.
Perhaps parents should ask what they expect from their kids.
A famous Cantonese singer commented privately that he was feeling down because his kids at an international school could not understand his Cantonese songs.
作者: Mighty 時間: 12-5-20 08:16
4eyesDad 發表於 12-5-20 02:01
Perhaps parents should not ask the utilitarian question before sending their kids to any particular ...
多余LA,這是完全是自己一手做出来、有MAAK好DOWN. IS的学生有非常多都識CANTONESE Or MANDARIN,可能写＆看得不及LS而已。 歌手在家有無培養一個環境譲小朋友学CANTONESE Or MANDARIN. 自問自答、有了答案就不用DOWN。 英文好OR OTHER LANGUAGES好、不代表中文就要差的。
作者: nintendo 時間: 12-5-20 12:18
本帖最後由 nintendo 於 12-5-20 12:19 編輯
算啦，係你先回佢。
又唔見佢講 d 垃圾本地學生有幾唔掂？
講落去，根本就係非理性討論。
講真，大家各有立場，但討論交流都要客觀。
國際學校中文弱就係其缺點，呢點根本冇人否認過；
但同時，在一個唔係咁理想的中文學習環境下，的確有好多國際學校學生，經多年努力，中文可以同本地學校比。
我覺得呢班學生努力，值得表揚。
作者: scl227 時間: 12-5-21 10:23
讀本地學校也好, 國際學校也好, 是看父母對教學的理念.
我選了國際學校, 因為壓力問題 而不是英文.
作者: annie40 時間: 12-5-21 11:23
回復 4eyesDad 的帖子
Perhaps parents should not ask the utilitarian question before sending their kids to any particular type of school.
Perhaps parents should ask what they expect from their kids.
A famous Cantonese singer commented privately that he was feeling down because his kids at an international school could not understand his Cantonese songs.
**** **** ***
Oh, don't blame eveything to international schools, especially those you want to give to your children desperately, However, you always keep thinking and never turn it into action. Certainly, he can nurture his kids' tastes by family enviornment and parenthood.
My daughter is obsessed to Cantonese and Mandarin songs, her favorite singers are 张国栄, 关正杰, 叶xian文. 林子祥,许冠杰. 张学友 isn't her cup of tea even though I have many of his collections.
By the way, it's nothing wrong when kids dislike Chinese songs either in IS or LS. Everyone has choices.
作者: annie40 時間: 12-5-21 11:40
回復 nintendo 的帖子
nintendo,
你是我的偶像, 自从有次你发表简单的话, 大意是:
唔理人家点样教仔, 孩子点样读书, 总之有本事考取一流一成绩, 入到超级名校, 你必定不会诸多批评的.
希望没有错误演绎, 请谅!
每次见到家长提出太多what if , 真是...............
annie
作者: awah112 時間: 12-5-21 11:50
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作者: annie40 時間: 12-5-21 12:30
回復 awah112 的帖子
这点是事实, 但如奥运会的金牌, 只要有一位土生土长的香港人如李丽珊, 黄金宝能做到, 对其他后辈是意义重大的, 只要从成功例子中找出训练方程式, 梯队是陆续不断的.
今天IS 的中文不缺时间, 不缺支持, 缺的是师资, 课程, 家长的信心吧! 走着看吧!
作者: nintendo 時間: 12-5-21 12:39
awah112 發表於 12-5-21 11:50
我相信國際學校學生中文可以比本地學校更好.只是鳳毛麟角而已.
整體平均一定冇本地學校咁好，呢點我估唔洗再討論
但一定唔係有人講，話好似本地人如天王 d 女，完全唔識中文，呢個有點極端
用呢個 case 黎概括國際學校學生程度，和家長對孩子學習中文的態度，我覺得不公平
作者: nintendo 時間: 12-5-21 12:47
annie，
我有咁講過？幣，唔記得。我多口，可能得罪唔少人。
呢度好多人仔女都讀本地學校，但都係叻仔叻女，見到佢地仔女的成就，我唔會吝惜讚賞。
個 d 唔讀書的金毛飛，關我鬼事。我就唔會有心機記住呢 d 人讀邊間學校，做過乜，有幾失敗。隔日報紙就賣 d 問題青少年點惹麻煩，唔通我要個個 case 搵張紙習低佢？我唔得閒好似個 sniper 咁，捕係到等開槍。
今次真係經典，連天氣女郎係唔係讀國際學校都未知 ( 我少睇本地電視，真係唔知佢話邊個，有人知個名，話聲我知，等我留意下佢 d 英文有幾爛)，就話埋人地係靠人事。
其實明珠台有好多主持都係讀本地學校。becky lee 李璧琦主持過 dolce vita，人地係讀 spcc，大學讀音樂，現在係聲樂老師，亦有做電視。唔想拉 becky 落水，我只係想話，做明珠台唔一定就係國際學校學生，唔好未清楚就估估下，不過，如果天氣女郎真係讀國際學校，咁我都想知係讀邊間，同埋讀了幾多年。有個打 golf 好叻，去參加過歌唱比賽的，當年插班讀了兩年國際學校，就話自己唔係好識中文。拿，呢 d 就真係千祈唔好學喇。
作者: awah112 時間: 12-5-21 12:51
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作者: annie40 時間: 12-5-21 14:06
回復 nintendo 的帖子
呢度好多人仔女都讀本地學校，但都係叻仔叻女，見到佢地仔女的成就，我唔會吝惜讚賞。
***** **** *****
就系呢种善意的态度, 值得大家学习, 和欣赏!
作者: torunpoland 時間: 12-5-21 14:18
上週, 有機會同朋友說說孩子的教育方向, 談了一個晚上, 頗有得益. 現將討論重點列出, 還望諸君賜教, 皆因小兒未足兩歲, 實際教育的問題, 於我家中只屬紙上談兵.
朋友的女兒, 有加拿大藉, 故此, 高中及大學, 一定會回加拿大讀. 但她會為女兒選擇選擇本地課程 (傳統或直資則未定), 原因是覺得, 在香港打好學業基礎, 再去加拿大讀書, 也就得心應手, 會讀得較輕鬆.
我猜, 大家都知, 加拿大的初中至高中課程, 一定淺過香港.
如無意外, 我家會安排孩子入國際學校, 長大一點會到海外讀書, 所以, 朋友的論點, 於我而言, 有點當頭捧喝, 我從未想過"打好基礎, 方便將來輕鬆讀書"的好處. 反覆思考過, 朋友的論點不無道理, 但我想, 小學至初中的教育, 是否純粹為"輕鬆入大學"的鋪路呢? 當中的活動學習對孩子的啟迪, 其影響是否更加深遠? 裨益是否更深入? 我想是的. 但我不又不能多言, 因為只屬幻想, 未有實際效果.
至於各位網友談到的中英文問題, 我有愚見如下:
(1) 學中文是大趨勢, 國際學校的學生, 如家中也用粵語, 先學粵語, 後學國語, 不會太難, 英文在學校日說夜說, 一定沒有問題, 基本的兩文三語, 應該手到拿來.
(2) 但論及較好的中文, 而非基本溝通用的中文, 最少能有看完<射雕>的能力, 那麼, 父母自少要幫小朋友培養, 反正看英文書的能力, 學校幫你手去培養. 學中文這一塊, 父母的input 很可能是唯一的input, 不能輕忽, 否則, 香港的特色(由於華洋共處, 學優秀中文及英文的軟件及硬件均備), 大大浪費. 許多自幼在美國/加拿大讀書的朋友, 會說中文, 也會看簡單中文, 但寫嘛, 卻不能了. 香港有此特色, 何不利用?
作者: 4eyesDad 時間: 12-5-21 14:27
本帖最後由 4eyesDad 於 12-5-23 15:59 編輯
回復 nintendo 的帖子
Why don't you take a closer look at someone with a surname "Lee" if and when you watch TVB Pearl weather report? She is a living example of an international school graduate whose English accent is audible and visible now. Are you happy if your kid got that kind of accent?
作者: annie40 時間: 12-5-21 15:42
回復 torunpoland 的帖子
談到的中英文問題, 我认为你的立论正确, 对孩子的期望也很合理, 肯定能办得到的.
"打好基礎" 对人生, 对学习是极度重要的, 但何谓"打好基礎"? 愚见认为重要的人生基礎是'态度', '纪律', 自我管约, 自理, 自省, 自我完善, 自爱, 有同理心, 勇敢!
当然有人认为"打好基礎"是学得深是尽量深, 学得多时尽量深多.
因为我们爱孩子, 当然有忧虑, 但路总是靠我们和孩子'行出来'的, 怎可以像programme setting, 预先输入, 计算精密, 就必定得着预期的理想效果呢!
还有大家能否想象八,九岁孩子常挂在嘴边的话是:(copy from family and friends)
1)读物科勿科,未来的出路
2) 去那里念大学有何优势
3) 凡事'值唔值, 好怕蚀底'
3) 唔懂中文亭'乞米'
4) 英文差必定无前程
不想孩子有这等概念, 试想我们当怎么办? 孩子天生有生存本能,, 可以担当各类大小成就, 千万不要提早送他一个框架,
作者: friendlyguy 時間: 12-5-21 16:31
在小學階段，我對小兒衹有一個要求，就是培養主動學習的興趣，在這方面，我不清楚LS的情况，但我想IS是做得好的。
作者: annie40 時間: 12-5-21 16:54
回復 awah112 的帖子
有錢應不缺師資,是不是缺乏文化認同?
***
缺乏文化認同是小部分原因. 因为在香港依然有浓厚的中国文化和特色, 父母亦非假洋鬼子.
中文老师学的一套是教中国孩子的原始方法, 对IS 孩子不大管用的, 其中有天份的好老师要依赖自己的摸索和热诚, 费尽心血才慢慢误出比较完善的教育, 然教育不容意mass production. 受为的孩子还是有限的.
关于curriculum,请参考oxford tree 的英文读物, 每个level 函概数十本书, 有数十个levels, 相同的英文字重复有重复, 故事超级有趣, 想象力非凡, 图画生动. 有连续性, 有系统, 有rhyme , 是极高水平的教育制作. 是训练幼年学童学习读立阅读的灵丹妙药. 如果我们IS有这些高素质的中文学习工具, 唉! 早就掂好多! 咪洗靠阿爸阿妈.
作者: Mighty 時間: 12-5-21 16:56
nintendo 發表於 12-5-21 07:39
整體平均一定冇本地學校咁好，呢點我估唔洗再討論
但一定唔係有人講，話好似本地人如天王 d 女，完全唔識 ...
在香港成長、無MAAK可能完全不識中文（CANTONESE Or MANDARIN)、如子女不識、都是父母従小有意地製造一個全英文環境、才有可能。 天王的言論、絶不作準。 其実我覚得好多ARTIST D SELF ESTEEM都好低、FEELINｇ INSECURE,所以潜意識地希望子女HIGH D,又以為只識英文、可以有高人一等的美麗誤会。
作者: nintendo 時間: 12-5-21 17:17
friendlyguy 發表於 12-5-21 16:31
在小學階段，我對小兒衹有一個要求，就是培養主動學習的興趣
同你想法差不多
"打好基礎" 就一定要，但點為之打好基礎，的確個個要求唔同
作者: 4eyesDad 時間: 12-5-21 20:16
I've just finished watching TVB Pearl and saw the same international school graduate at the Weather Report immediately after the 7.30pm News.
Some top TV executives must be reading this forum because, in contrast with previous nights, the weather girl's name is no longer visible on screen.
Why can't an international school graduate proud of her name or her accent?
作者: awah112 時間: 12-5-21 20:58
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作者: torunpoland 時間: 12-5-21 21:17
回復 awah112 的帖子
最少能有看完<射雕>的能力--> 我覺得這已經是一個很低很低的要求了. 如果真心說, 起碼要有能力看懂<三國演義>囉!
作者: bobbycheung 時間: 12-5-21 21:26
Start watching at 2:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1MgS46zLy0
They're not kidding. I found news broadcast with regional accents.
http://www.stv.tv/weather/278351 ... eak-floods-of-2002/
作者: KarenKang 時間: 12-5-21 21:49
好精彩的討論. 我兒子讀中文強的IS, 因為發現我家姐D仔女讀LS名校, 但中文詞語填充要對答案才有滿分.唔系得半分.好失望, 我以前中文老師不是這樣的.我家姐成日同老師argue分數.
撰IS(中文強的)的原因是老師要用母語教學, 即教中文要中文是母語的, 教英文當然要是英文是母語, 用英文教數學或科學, 也要英文是母語的, 這樣只有IS才做到.若老師表達不好, 學生不會學得好. 或沒有興趣, 或只為考試而讀書, 不為知識而讀書.
還有是港式教育很填鴨, 死讀書, 只喜歡對答案. 不會問為何答案是這樣來的.還有, 港式教育令學生喜歡操練試題, 這樣學知識很片面, 不完整. 只知道知識, 而不明白知識, 也不喜歡自己去找答案或找更多答案. 喜歡別人告知答案, 而不是自己去研究答案. 多看完整的書會令學生有完整的邏輯思考.
這是本人受過兩地教育(港式及美式)的經驗.
以上William9_2003的個案只是他找到個特別叻或資優的. 若有幸請到哈佛生尖子, 應該不是那些番書仔的質素. 可惜哈佛尖子多數留在美國, 被美國大企業請去了.
另外是, 本人會送兒子去外國讀大學, 當然希望是名校. 才讓讀IS.想外國讀書是想他獨立, 有不同的人生經驗, 開眼界. "不是祟洋, 是祟優" (陶傑說的)
作者: friendlyguy 時間: 12-5-21 22:23
4eyesDad 發表於 12-5-19 11:53
回復 bobbycheung 的帖子
She may enjoy her weather reporting job.
作者: Mighty 時間: 12-5-22 08:07
4eyesDad 發表於 12-5-21 15:16
I've just finished watching TVB Pearl and saw the same international school graduate at the Weather ...
作者: Babyarsene 時間: 12-5-22 09:27 標題: 回覆：hkparent 的帖子
But esf is also difficult for local family kids to enter now? They even dun have enough seats for first tier students? No?
作者: gracedolly 時間: 12-5-22 11:20 標題: 引用：係屋企自己同小朋友做多d中文,+去唔到本地
本帖最後由 gracedolly 於 12-5-22 11:46 編輯
原帖由 elmostoney 於 12-05-10 發表
係屋企自己同小朋友做多d中文, 去唔到本地程度, 都要有基本能力, 我相信做得到. 而且而家世代唔同, 出來做 ...
贊同。
作者: elmostoney 時間: 12-5-22 12:15
本帖最後由 elmostoney 於 12-5-22 12:16 編輯
看到在此有人舉 "一" 例列出"番書仔"不及本地薑, 我想動力跟LS或IS並無關係, 多少取決於個人.
我也在此舉多例. 我的工作要接觸電子/機械工程人員, 同事中, 亦曾有本地某最高學府的畢業生, 工作態度叫人不敢恭維. 零經驗, 工作卻左挑右挑, 態度散漫, 欠EQ, 不懂和人相處.
友人跟我同年, 是本地大學畢業的工程人員, 本來公司很多職位北移, 他幾經爭取, 想在港請一名工程人員, 可幫輕他在中港兩地奔跑, 卻失望而回. 所有本地大學相關學科的畢業生他都面試, 問他們為何做某某論文, 原理是什麼, 這些畢業生竟說: 不知道, 教授叫我們做, 我們便做了 --- 我覺得這對本地教育只求分數, 不及甚解這一項表現得淋漓盡致. 友人說, 他也不想那麼辛苦, 單靠他一人兩地跑, 但他認為, 若論根基, 技術和工作態度, 在內地總能挑到好的技術人員, 在香港反而更難, 所以最後他都沒有請香港員工, 唯有繼續由他一人兩地跑.
我讓孩子進國際學校, 不是貪圖學得一口流利英文, 這個我在家都能做到. 學英文比學中文容易, 這誰不知道? 我也分別在香港和外國唸過中小學, 還記得在香港唸書就是背書拿高分, 考試過後, 什麼都忘個一乾二淨. 到了外國唸書, 一本書是四,五百頁的, 能背多少? 老師也不要求範本答案, 最重要是理解課文. 中學時一位友人跟我說, 他很喜歡二次大戰歷史, 在香港唸某名中學時, 他將自己會的課外知識都加到考卷上, 老師評卷, 因為學生答的內容超過教科書內的答案, 竟然扣他的分數! 到了外國, 友人仍是隨心以自己所知作答, 雖然超越教科書內容, 老師卻大讚他答得詳盡!
我希望孩子進國際學校, 除了讓他們有個快樂的童年, 不要功課測驗壓得透不過氣來, 亦期望他們明白尋找知識, 甚至人生的樂趣, 依他們所喜, 發揮所長. 我從沒有想過要他們進Ivy League (能進去當然無限支持), 每個人的能力都不一樣, 無需強求, 我亦不要求將自己想做而做不到的, 要他們的人生為我填補 (這也是因為一點個人經驗, 有感而發), 每個生命都不一樣, 我只希望他們走自己的路, 只要不是什麼自毀或影響他人的行為即可. 人不能無錢, 但不一定要進Ivy League才能維生吧?
作者: torunpoland 時間: 12-5-22 12:59
回復 elmostoney 的帖子
我從沒有想過要他們進Ivy League (能進去當然無限支持)
同意呀! 有本事, 入到就入, 入到的話, 我點都供你讀. (不過, 如果入到, 都應該有本事考到獎學金吧!!!)
我自己覺得, 入大學是基本要求 (也許期望真的太高?!), 但不一定入名校, 有本事入到加拿大一線大學(不屬世界頂級), 甚或美國的二線大學, 其實已經很不錯.
作者: awah112 時間: 12-5-23 11:16
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作者: awah112 時間: 12-5-23 11:36
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作者: Atticus 時間: 12-5-23 11:49
awah112 發表於 12-5-23 11:36
Snakemama
我相信一個法國男人,會希望個仔學好法文先,再去學英文,中文.
That is a perfectly understandable and reasonable expectation. What I don't agree with is Chinese looking down on our own native language and believe that knowing little or no Chinese means they are better educated or have a higher social standing...
作者: Snakemama 時間: 12-5-23 11:51
回復 awah112 的帖子
awah112 還有能寫一手好中文
[color=rgb(153, 153, 153) !important]發表於 前天 21:35
[color=rgb(153, 153, 153) !important]Just for 八卦，你兩個仔有冇學書法。我仔唔肯，我都好鍾意人寫得一手好字(不論中、英、法、印••••••）
作者: 4eyesDad 時間: 12-5-23 16:11
KarenKang 發表於 12-5-21 21:49
好精彩的討論. 我兒子讀中文強的IS, 因為發現我家姐D仔女讀LS名校, 但中文詞語填充要對答案才有滿分.唔系得 ...
By the time their parents realize their deficiency in Chinese. It's time for university entrance or some kind of exam, etc. Then it's not the right time and is probably too late to catch up Chinese.
Result: Chinese looking students whose Chinese is below par.
The other sad reality is that these Chinese looking students actually think they are "superior" because of their English.
作者: 4eyesDad 時間: 12-5-23 16:18
friendlyguy 發表於 12-5-21 22:23
Don't look down on any youngster. Please note that Mrs Selina CHOW LIANG Shuk-yee started her career ...
I bet HKIS was not even in existence then.
The circumstances now are completely different.
Speaking fluent English now is simply not a guarantee for a good job.
作者: Atticus 時間: 12-5-23 16:37
4eyesDad 發表於 12-5-23 16:11
You have a very good point here. The unfortunate reality is that many International school students ...
"The other sad reality is that these Chinese looking students actually think they are "superior" because of their English"
I can't agree more but this is probably not their or their parents' fault. The whole notion of one's ethnic origin being Chinese but native English speaking being regarded as superior is the legacy of the history of our nation...
作者: bobbycheung 時間: 12-5-23 16:39
4eyesDad 發表於 12-5-23 16:18
When Selina Chow was a weather girl on TVB Pearl about 50 years ago, she was relatively highly paid ...
1. Unlike the old days, I think most parents nowadays know the importance of Chinese language.
2. If there are any Chinese looking students who actually think they are "superior" because of their English, then they are just naive.
3. You are right. Speaking fluent English now is simply not a guarantee for a good job. But the truth is nothing would guarantee you a good job nowadays. The only certainty is that speaking and writing poor English is a guarantee for not being able to find a good job.
作者: friendlyguy 時間: 12-5-23 16:40
回復 4eyesDad 的帖子
What I mean is : 寧欺白鬚公，莫欺鼻涕蟲!
作者: annie40 時間: 12-5-23 16:50
回復 nintendo 的帖子
nintendio,
陳振聰與妻子譚妙清育有兩子一女，長子陳酉樺（18歲）與弟妹過往從未公開露面。初級偵訊昨天正式開始，陳酉樺現身法庭，與叔父陳振國、同父異母姊姊倫培珍及母親一同支持父親。記者以廣東話向陳酉樺問好，最初未獲回應，稍後Wealthee以英語表示不諳廣東話，透露自己在加拿大英屬哥倫比亞大學讀書，趁放假返港支持父親。
*** *** ***
希望是记者听错又写错 似乎又多左个话自己不諳廣東話的IS孩子, 看;来爸妈不大像说native English的香港人. 难度一家人用外星话或手语沟通乎? 不可思议吧!
annie
作者: bobbycheung 時間: 12-5-23 17:19
本帖最後由 bobbycheung 於 12-5-23 17:22 編輯
annie40 發表於 12-5-23 16:50
回復 nintendo 的帖子
nintendio,
Annie,
你唔會明嫁啦, 因為
陳振聰夫婦並非普通的香港人.
事實上他們亦非普通的人.
有D人甚至話佢地唔係人
作者: 4eyesDad 時間: 12-5-23 18:29
friendlyguy 發表於 12-5-23 16:40
回復 4eyesDad 的帖子
What I mean is : 寧欺白鬚公，莫欺鼻涕蟲!
Maltreatment of any person, irrespective of her age, is wrong.
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