教育王國
標題: KGV英婦教中文 [打印本頁]
作者: mrshoho 時間: 12-5-3 09:49 標題: KGV英婦教中文
http://hk.apple.nextmedia.com/te ... id=20120503&sec_id=4104&subsec_id=12731&art_id=16303196
OH NO!!!!!
作者: tingtingting 時間: 12-5-3 10:35
Seems that the AppleDaily guys can't tell what the E in ESF means. It's an English school for Christ's sake. What's wrong with teaching Chinese as a foreign language?
作者: WYmom 時間: 12-5-3 10:47
本帖最後由 WYmom 於 12-5-3 10:58 編輯
But it is really ridiculous to use such a teacher who has taught only for 3 years as the Head of Chinese dept... she used google to translate English into Chinese... this is unacceptable even she teaches it as a foreign language!! This teacher obviously is not qualified for teaching Chinese as a foreign language. It will only do harm to the students.
This is in fact reported by the parents and students of the school and obviously the school management ignore the complaints which force the parents to raise the issue openly to the public through the press. Now the principal still defends the teacher...
作者: KH 時間: 12-5-3 11:14
為什麼使咗咁多錢, 唔可以請一位識教的人來教
老師如果冇一定的水準, 淨憑領導與管理能力點教學生呢
宜家係人出咗問題, 我相信就算教材改進咗, 都唔係代表佢識教
一校之長做出咁樣的決定, 真係讓人心寒
最可憐的係學生啊
作者: peremum 時間: 12-5-3 11:54
回復 tingtingting 的帖子
So, will you be happy if the English teacher of your kid(s) is someone who cannot write proper English, if he/she is just teaching English as a "foreign language"?
Here, I have taken the liberty to assume that your kids are learning English as a second language. If, to my ignorance, they are using English as first language, then please accept my apologies.
作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 12-5-3 12:08
peremum 發表於 12-5-3 11:54 
Here, I have taken the liberty to assume that your kids are learning English as a second language. If, to my ignorance, they are using English as first language, then please accept my apologies
作者: peremum 時間: 12-5-3 12:51
回復 FattyDaddy 的帖子
I am aware of this fact. But still thank you for pointing it out. Though "first language" & 'first language level ability" has some subtle differences.
BTW, what I actually mean is that according to what the aforementioned parent said, I have a little bit doubt on whether the complete meaning of "learning a foreign language" is fully grasped. Learning a foreign language doesn't mean learning it in a casual & not accurate way. For example, you will never want to learn German form me even I know how to use Bablefish
作者: tcbobo 時間: 12-5-3 12:57
回復 peremum 的帖子
英基有D中文老師中文同英文都講得唔好，小朋友聽唔明中文，老師用唔正的英文去解釋又聽唔明，真係好慘
作者: Mighty 時間: 12-5-3 13:15
tcbobo 發表於 12-5-3 07:57
回復 peremum 的帖子
英基有D中文老師中文同英文都講得唔好，小朋友聽唔明中文，老師用唔正的英文去解釋又 ...
我小朋友在SJS,ALTHOUGH D中文的課程好有問題、不過大部分老師都是香港OR内地的、OK BOR. 這間KGV、可能因香港本地学生較小、所以以為用西人教、瞞天過海。
作者: helennalau 時間: 12-5-3 13:38
本帖最後由 helennalau 於 12-5-3 13:44 編輯
講真,英基肯定忘記左香港係一個以中國人為主既社會,個西人咁屎既水平係以母語為中文既社會教中文根本死梗,仲可以做到中文科主任,逗7,8萬一個月,成班香港中文母語教師暴動都似, 咁就手有母語中文老師唔請 
浪費納稅人金錢, 香港大把叻既中文老師 ,叫佢教即等於叫香港英文老師去英國教當地中學生英語一樣 , 語言無當地人母語水準係無得係當地教人地母語 , 就算教少數種裔都好難暪天過海 
作者: alpham0m 時間: 12-5-3 13:47
我也覺得以這樣的薪水聘請如此水準的師資完全難以接受。
即使是任教對象是非華裔學生也完全不可以接受。
校方明顯失責！
作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 12-5-3 13:52
peremum 發表於 12-5-3 12:51
回復 FattyDaddy 的帖子
Though "first language" & 'first language level ability" has some subtle differences
Why bother going to KGV or any ESF school if Chinese is such a big concern? I'm not saying whether Chinese should or should not be a concern, I'm just saying there is an appropriate place for everything,
Would I go to McDonalds and expect them to serve up a good bowl of cha siu fahn (roast pork rice)? If I'm really craving for a bowl of the greasy stuff I'm much better off going to Tai Hing next door {:1_1:}
作者: alpham0m 時間: 12-5-3 14:02
回復 FattyDaddy 的帖子
I cannot help but to reply to your post although it was not addressed to me.
No, I don't expect McDonald to serve up a perfect bowl of cha-siu rice, but I don't expect them to served up a "spoiled" cha-sui rice. Not very good and spoiled/rotten are two different things to me.
KGV is an educational institute and I as a parent expect them to teach all subject in a decent and acceptable standard, not substandard. Just because it is an English-Medium school, it does not mean it is allowed to teach bad Chinese to the students.When I went to University in the west, I took Japanese as a subject and the school made sure they get decent teachers for the job. Hire the right people to do the right teaching, as simple as that, no excuses.
KGV is the feeding school of my child's primary school, and that's why I feel very strongly about this.
作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 12-5-3 15:15
alpham0m 發表於 12-5-3 14:02
回復 FattyDaddy 的帖子
No, I don't expect McDonald to serve up a perfect bowl of cha-siu rice, but I don't expect them to served up a "spoiled" cha-sui rice.
作者: HKTHK 時間: 12-5-3 15:32
I would like to hear why it is a mistake for ESF to offer Chinese classes
作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 12-5-3 15:54
HKTHK 發表於 12-5-3 15:32
I would like to hear why it is a mistake for ESF to offer Chinese classes
As a matter of fact McDonalds in Hongkong did experimentally serve rice before, around 10 years ago, it never caught on {:1_1:}
作者: alpham0m 時間: 12-5-3 16:08
I actually think it would be a big mistake if ESFs school don't offer Chinese lessons. Mandarin is becoming a worldwide phenomena. You will only miss the boat if you don't even attempt to learn the language.
作者: WYmom 時間: 12-5-3 16:08
The problem is more with this particular teacher in KGV... the school should have no problem to hire a much more qualified and experienced Chinese teacher to teach Chinese giving such a high pay!
作者: HKTHK 時間: 12-5-3 16:13
Different schools cater to different students. Yes, that I can understand. Not even offering Chinese classes for those who would like to take it is simply wrong. Not to mention that this is a school located in China with 45% of its students being ethnically Chinese. For those students who would like to eventually work in HK, how do you think they will find employment if they can't read, write and speak Chinese?
Not sure if you are a parent of ESF but I would like to see the crowd's reaction when you propose that Chinese be omitted from their curriculum at the next PTA meeting. Good luck.
作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 12-5-3 16:16
本帖最後由 FattyDaddy 於 12-5-3 16:17 編輯
alpham0m 發表於 12-5-3 16:08
Mandarin is becoming a worldwide phenomena ...
That is not the point, no one is saying Chinese is not important, but if learning Chinese is such a big concern, there are much better schools to learn it from, why go to ESF?
Rice is a staple diet for billions of people in the world, no one can deny the importance of rice, yet McDonalds don't offer a single rice dish on their menu, so are they crazy or what? {:1_1:}
作者: alpham0m 時間: 12-5-3 16:22
I don't get your logic. My point is, there is nothing wrong for an English-medium school to offer Mandarin lessons, but please hire decent teachers to do the job.
作者: tingtingting 時間: 12-5-3 16:24
FattyDaddy 發表於 12-5-3 15:15
I do agree ESF has made a mstake, the mistake is to offer Chinese at all. Just like it would be a mi ...
作者: tingtingting 時間: 12-5-3 16:32
本帖最後由 tingtingting 於 12-5-3 16:35 編輯
I'm gutted by the way AppleDaily reported it: telling a small part of the story and magnifying the trivia. The Chinese curriculum is not a 2 page document. It must be a huge document if not a collection of many documents. There are bound to be mistakes to be found, if only one looks carefully enough. To accuse the teachers and the Chinese Head of being unprofessional based on those mistakes is unprofessional.
BTW, ESF schools are English schools, that is. At ESF schools, Chinese is no different from French, Latin, German or Spanish as a second language.
I am not offering excuses for the teachers. But, who can say that the teachers are not already doing their best within all the constraints?
作者: bobbycheung 時間: 12-5-3 16:33
FattyDaddy 發表於 12-5-3 16:16 
That is not the point, no one is saying Chinese is not important, but if learning Chinese is such a ...
To me, it is not really a question of whether learning Chinese is a big concern or not. The point is that a school should make sure what it teaches its students is correct. Even with my poor Chinese, I can tell there is something wrong with the sentences. There is really no excuse.
作者: bobbycheung 時間: 12-5-3 16:40
本帖最後由 bobbycheung 於 12-5-3 16:44 編輯
tingtingting 發表於 12-5-3 16:24
Exactly. Enrolling one's kid in ESF and expecting decent enough Chinese is like walking into McDonal ...
Would you say the same about learning French or other languages in ESF? Would you mind if the teachers teach the kids wrong French?
作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 12-5-3 16:41
HKTHK 發表於 12-5-3 16:13
Different schools cater to different students. Yes, that I can understand. Not even offering Chinese classes for those who would like to take it is simply wrong
There are many local schools in Hongkong where Chinese is properly taught, there are even more schools in China and Taiwan where Chinese is better taught than most local schools in Hongkong, so there are no lack of choices for those who are serious about learning Chinese. Why expect international schools full of foreign teachers and foreign students to do the same? That is neither their purpose nor strength.
作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 12-5-3 16:54
alpham0m 發表於 12-5-3 16:22
My point is, there is nothing wrong for an English-medium school to offer Mandarin lessons, but please hire decent teachers to do the job
You said you went the West for university, there was nothing wrong with that university offering Japanese lessons and they hired decent teachers to teach it, good for them, but would you criticize that university if they don't offer Japanese lessons? What was your main purpose in studying there? To learn Japanese?
So we should ask ourselves what is the main purpose of Hongkong parents sending their children to international schools, to learn Chinese? If that is the case then why put up with international schools at all? There are many local schools in Hongkong and even more schools in China and Taiwan where Chinese is taught to a high standard.
作者: Atticus 時間: 12-5-3 16:55
I think FattyDaddy and tingtingting missed the point here. The point is not about Chinese. It's about getting the teaching materials right. This applies to any subjects, may it be English, Chinese, Physics, Maths, History, etc.
I might be wrong but I have a feeling that if the subject matter wasn't Chinese language, your views would be different. Would you tolerate it if the teaching staff at ESF taught their students E=mc3 or that Henry VIII had 5 wives and was the King of France?
作者: HKTHK 時間: 12-5-3 17:01
Of course, so as you pointed out English is their first language. That is great and I am sure one of the major reasons that parents send their kids to international school. But that is not what we are talking about here. The article suggests that Chinese, as a second language, is being taught poorly/incorrectly by an inexperienced teacher. If it were Spanish, that may be more excusable since HK does not exactly have a deep pool of Spanish teachers. But Chinese/Mandarin? There are plenty of good teachers around and many are experienced in teaching it as a second language. One need to look no further than any other international schools in HK. What people are upset about is that a language is being taught poorly/incorrectly and it is so simple to fix the problem by hiring better teachers that are readily available in HK.
As for your opinion on Chinese should not be offered at all, I still don't get it. So French, Spanish, German or whatever other language is OK to be taught but not Chinese? Don't worry about it though since I don't even think you understand where some of us are coming from. And it is pointless to argue when we are not on the same page.
tingtingting> No one questioned that the teacher put in their best effort. But their best effort are simply not good enough in this case. Time to think about a new teacher. Finding mandarin teachers in HK is not exactly rocket science.
作者: bobbycheung 時間: 12-5-3 17:04
FattyDaddy 發表於 12-5-3 16:54
Yes, either you don't do it or you do it properly.
You said you went the West for university, there ...
作者: kcvtsai 時間: 12-5-3 17:27
I think as a proper educational institute, the materials they taught should be appropriate and the teachers should be qualified. Irrespective to the subject and language.
Even in a local school, I would expect the teachers to be qualified and to teach proper English. It's no excuse to say a local school's medium of learning is Chinese (Cantonese / Mandarin) then their English should also be substandard or wrong!!!
作者: william9_2003 時間: 12-5-3 17:38
本帖最後由 william9_2003 於 12-5-3 18:06 編輯
http://hk.apple.nextmedia.com/template/apple/art_main.php?iss_id=20120503&sec_id=4104&subsec_id=12731&art_id=16303197
http://hk.apple.nextmedia.com/template/apple/art_main.php?iss_id=20120503&sec_id=4104&subsec_id=12731&art_id=16303196
作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 12-5-3 18:04
Atticus 發表於 12-5-3 16:55
ESF taught their students that Henry VIII had 5 wives ...
The subject does matter because of the sentiments and sensitivities attached. if a local school in Hongkong teaches bad French, that is not the same as teaching bad Chinese. If the school decides to drop French from its curriculum because it was being taught so badly, that is not the same as the school dropping Chinese.
But when it comes to international schools, should we apply the same sentiments?
作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 12-5-3 18:22
HKTHK 發表於 12-5-3 17:01
The article suggests that Chinese, as a second language, is being taught poorly/incorrectly by an inexperienced teacher.
What I'm saying is ESF should drop Chinese altogether because they are teaching it so badly.
作者: Atticus 時間: 12-5-3 18:23 標題: 回覆：FattyDaddy 的帖子
Sorry, I fail to understand the point you are trying to make.
作者: annie40 時間: 12-5-3 18:25
似乎大家仲有不同的想法, 我让孩子上IS, 早就预见孩子不懂中文的. 因此从来对学校的中文科未有期望, 亦因此从不失望.
念IS 的孩子是十分喜爱读书的, 唯独大部分非常厌恶中文科. 是爸妈整天提倡中文科好重要, 他们才努力地念下去. 究其原因不单是中文难学, 最令孩子讨厌的是中国老师用的是中式教育, 比较单向, 家长式, 孩子未学懂多少字已投降了. 对中文有很大的抗拒. 最后事倍功半.
我偶然天真地想, 希望有天有位西方老师懂得孩子的心, 也懂中文, 或许孩子的中文学习路便变得平坦多呢.
今天的中文文法和语病, 在香港的LS , IS , 已充斥久已, 不是旱有吧. 认真看看我们的确教科书, 学者和一些中文底子厚的朋友, 不难指正缪误. 或许大家比较担心是外国人教中文的能力和水平. 我不认识那位老师, 不敢评论. 但如能从令一角度看事情, 可以是:
* 老师如只是教初级中文程度的学生, 问题不大.
* 外籍老师教中文科, 是活生生的身教, 让孩子明白'世上无难事, 只怕有心人'
* 课程上的文法错误, 是中文部老师集体的错, 不应单一怪罪外籍老师. ESF受批判, 反而可以值此完善课程
其实偶然一些IS 的newsletters的英文也写得麻麻地, 何以未见香港家长对校长的英文水平提出意见. 我们是照样信任学校的整体教育工作呢! 外籍朋友有怀疑, 我就连怀疑的水平都未有. 不知是悲还是喜.
希望大家继续互相包涵.
annie
作者: Atticus 時間: 12-5-3 18:29 標題: 回覆：FattyDaddy 的帖子
Why are you advocating for ESF to drop Chinese altogether? I'm not sure that's what's being discussed here...
作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 12-5-3 18:35
bobbycheung 發表於 12-5-3 17:04
But there are also "many local schools in Hongkong and even more schools in China and Taiwan" where maths is taught to a high standard, is it then OK for ESF or other English-medium international schools to teach the kids the wrong maths?
Is Chinese a core subject? Many people's knee jerk response would be "of course", but is it? No doubt for local schools in the Greater China area it is, but is that the case for international schools? I never said it is right for ESF to teach bad Chinese or any other subject, I'm saying if they are teaching Chinese so badly then perhaps they should just drop it altogether because it is not their "core business", just like McDonalds dropping rice from their menu {:1_1:}
作者: Atticus 時間: 12-5-3 18:36 標題: 回覆：Atticus 的帖子
Sorry, I haven't made myself clear. My two responses above were in response to FattyDaddy's latest comments, which leave my utterly bewildered...
作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 12-5-3 18:49
Atticus 發表於 12-5-3 18:29
Why are you advocating for ESF to drop Chinese altogether? I'm not sure that's what's being discuss ...
We all agree that one should do something properly or not at all, especially when it comes to teaching. So there are people who insist ESF must teach Chinese properly, and I just hold the alternative view that they should drop it altogether, it is different sides to the same coin.
We can go on and discuss why we should insist on ESF teaching Chinese properly, but that is like discussing why we should insist on McDonalds dong rice properly, I think we can skip that {:1_1:}
作者: Snakemama 時間: 12-5-3 18:51
FattyDaddy 發表於 12-5-3 16:41
Hmm, aren't we talking about international schools here? We should ask ourselves why parents send th ...
作者: Mighty 時間: 12-5-3 19:02
annie40 發表於 12-5-3 13:25
似乎大家仲有不同的想法, 我让孩子上IS, 早就预见孩子不懂中文的. 因此从来对学校的中文科未有期望, 亦因 ...
ESF浪費這多銭在費柴老師身上、是令人気憤的。 大陸好的老師大把。 点解？？？？
FATTYDADDY的観点、我大部分都不賛同、BUT一点我会認同、ESF是没有意思撹好中文的、有中文科只是大勢所出、極端点講、将毎日普通話的時間転為作其他ESF専長項目、可能会更有効益。 大部分家長都有補中文的、所以影響不大。 如果問我、我賛成没有中文科。 如果有、就一定要有好的教材＆老師才可以。
作者: william9_2003 時間: 12-5-3 19:07
本帖最後由 william9_2003 於 12-5-3 19:16 編輯
因為 英基 ESF 每年都有接受幾億幾億 政府既資助,所以佢係有責任 一定要開 中文科黎符合係香港社會生活,社交以及工作所需 
由於係我地納稅人既金錢,佢浪費咁多金錢教埋曬 d咁差,唔合水準既中文老師我地係有權批評 ,佢請唔合格既西人教中文對合水準既本地母語中文老師好唔公平,咁俾人搶飯碗好唔抵,亦好難向納稅人交待
作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 12-5-3 19:13
Snakemama 發表於 12-5-3 18:51
The question is: if KGV decided to teach Chinese at school, they should do it properly. This is the ...
If people only stare at one side admiring the bauhinia flower, they don't realize there is another side saying "One Dollar" {:1_1:}
作者: bobbycheung 時間: 12-5-3 19:44
FattyDaddy 發表於 12-5-3 19:13
That is right, teach it properly, or not at all, these are 2 sides to the same coin.
If people only ...
作者: bobbycheung 時間: 12-5-3 19:51
本帖最後由 bobbycheung 於 12-5-3 19:55 編輯
FattyDaddy 發表於 12-5-3 18:35
The subject being taught does matter. Maths is a core subject, and if a school does not teach maths ...
What is a core subject and what is not does not really make a difference. Kicking a football is not a core subject. So does it mean that the the school could teach the kids to toe-punch the football? Swimming is not a core subject. So the school could teach the kids wrong style eg. 狗仔式? Is music a core subject? Is it OK for the school to teach the kids wrong music theory etc? If the school find it hard to teach the kids all these properly, should the school drop all of these? By the way, I don't really know how many parents would agree to the idea that Chinese should be dropped altogether.
作者: tingtingting 時間: 12-5-3 20:54 標題: 回覆：KGV英婦教中文
本帖最後由 tingtingting 於 12-5-3 21:05 編輯
I find it amusing that those parents who send their children to ESF take Chinese so seriously. Shouldn't it be an informed decision? If they care about Chinese, why not CIS or ISF? After all, it is ENGLISH Schools Foundation. I am not saying that it is OK to teach with poor materials. But, to rely on an English school to teach proper Chinese is kind of weird.
By the way, if people do care about Chinese, why accept 殘體字 (so called simplified Chinese) in the first place? Don't they know that ESF don't teach 正體 Chinese?
作者: manstap 時間: 12-5-3 20:56
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作者: Snakemama 時間: 12-5-3 21:11 標題: 引用：Quote:Snakemama+發表於+12-5-3+18:51+The+
原帖由 FattyDaddy 於 12-05-03 發表
That is right, teach it properly, or not at all, these are 2 sides to the same coin.
If people only ...
However, you keep changing the track. I am going to and
作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 12-5-3 21:32
Snakemama 發表於 12-5-3 21:11
Just code your#27: "Yes, either you don't do it or you do it properly"
However, you keep changing t ...
"Either you don't it or you do it properly"
"Teach it properly or not at all"
Don't these 2 statements mean the same? {:1_1:}
作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 12-5-3 21:51
bobbycheung 發表於 12-5-3 19:51
By the way, I don't really know how many parents would agree to the idea that Chinese should be dropped altogether ...
作者: alpham0m 時間: 12-5-3 21:52
Somebody said it before, recruiting decent Mandarin teachers in HK is not rocket science and there is no need to ditch Mandarin in ESF schools over that. Better human resources management is all that is needed.
FattyDaddy, I don't really get your point of view but you are entitle to yours and I am entitled to mine, that's that. Over and out!
作者: Atticus 時間: 12-5-3 22:00
本帖最後由 Atticus 於 12-5-3 22:01 編輯
FattyDaddy 發表於 12-5-3 21:32
Huh? How did I change?
"Either you don't it or you do it properly"
Your emphasis seems to have shifted to the "don't do it at all" and "drop Chinese altogether" part, which I don't agree with.
I believe most people don't expect ESF students' Chinese to be impeccable but not for the wrong reason. We all thought ESF students' Chinese was not strong because Chinese is being taught as a second language but we now understand that it's because they weren't being taught proper Chinese at school! These are totally different matters.
作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 12-5-3 22:10
本帖最後由 FattyDaddy 於 12-5-3 22:10 編輯
alpham0m 發表於 12-5-3 21:52
Somebody said it before, recruiting decent Mandarin teachers in HK is not rocket science and there i ...
Same goes for McDonalds serving rice. Cooking rice is hardly rocket science and it would be so easy for McDonalds to acquire local Hongkong staff and equipment to prepare rice properly, yet they don't do it. If you don't understand why they don't do it then you'll never understand my view point, but that is no big deal {:1_1:}
作者: Atticus 時間: 12-5-3 22:25
FattyDaddy 發表於 12-5-3 22:10
Same goes for McDonalds serving rice. Cooking rice is hardly rocket science and it would be so easy ...
FattyDaddy and tingtingting:
You still don't seem to get it... Using FattyDaddy's favourite McDonald's analogy, nobody expects McDonald's to serve the best rice with barbecued pork but we are not talking about how tasty McDonald's McRice with Barbecued Pork would be if they do decide to sell this stuff, we are talking about this stuff is not cooked properly... Quoting FattyDaddy, if you don't get this simple principle, you'll never understand our point of view but that's okay...
作者: bobbycheung 時間: 12-5-3 23:25
本帖最後由 bobbycheung 於 12-5-4 00:06 編輯
ESF's Chinese Curriculum 2011 to 2013 said "...It is part of our commitment to raising the standards of Chinese education at ESF. We aim to maximise the opportunities for our students to develop their language skills, both oral and written, to a level that would help them to live and work in a Chinese speaking community if they so wished."
ESF's Annual Report 2009 to 2010 said "...As part of the Foundation’s 3-year strategic plan, strengthening and developing Chinese language learning in the Foundation’s schools is a key strategic objective......The primary daily Chinese programme is now well established and Chinese has become recognised as a core subject in primary schools. Three learning pathways have been established in secondary schools to match the primary programme."
Parents may have different views on the importance of Chinese, but it is clear that ESF is taking the Chinese language seriously. Perhaps the parents who place little or no emphasis on Chinese are the ones who are barking up the wrong tree. Perhaps they are the ones who should think again if ESF is the right school for their kids.
作者: beeman18 時間: 12-5-3 23:26
本帖最後由 beeman18 於 12-5-3 23:48 編輯
if a restaurant decided to offer a dish, let it be eastern or western or fusion, let it be cooked by a native chef or an apprentice, it has certain expectations and have to be done in a proper way. And if a reputable education institution decided to offer any foreign language, or any new subjects in this matter, there will be certain degree of duty of care in delivering an on-par level if not exceeding it. We are talking about education for children which is long term, and not some food served in any restaurant that may not even stay in our body longer than days. Education is neither a joke nor something that can be taken lightly for many parents. If it is short-handed, out-sourcing to competent sector should be seriously considered as an alternative.
作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 12-5-4 00:19
beeman18 發表於 12-5-3 23:26
If it is short-handed, out-sourcing to competent sector should be seriously considered as an alternative
You're right, education is neither a joke nor something that can be taken lightly, so sending one's children to international schools in general and ESF schools in particular should have been a serious and well thought out decision, and sub-standard Chinese teaching should not come as a surprise.
Anyway, I think everybody has said just about everything there is to say on this matter, and many including myself are beginning to repeat, so I'll just stop here.
作者: Bow 時間: 12-5-4 01:09
本帖最後由 Bow 於 12-5-4 01:11 編輯
個老師系教Foreign Language pathway, 以過來人的身份教, 應該好D掛.
蘋果斷章取意, 嘩眾取寵... 講到中文, 就算系大陸, 香港, 台灣, 星加波都有吾同啦...
個老師吾系中國人, 又太後生做亞head, 有人吾抵得, 益哂蘋果有新聞造.
作者: HKTHK 時間: 12-5-4 01:11
Agree that we should put a stop to this. Pointless to keep going on and on. Let's switch gear a bit. Do you think it is beneficial or essential for kids in HK to learn Chinese?
作者: bobbycheung 時間: 12-5-4 01:15
本帖最後由 bobbycheung 於 12-5-4 01:16 編輯
May I add one last point? A lot of the kids in ESF are doing IBDP. IBDP requires a student to do 2 languages. The First Language is usually English. There are kids studying Chinese as the Second Language. Sub-standard or poor Chinese teaching would affect the results of these kids. Shouldn't parents say "no" to it? Is it too high an expectation despite what's said in ESF's Chinese Curriculum and Annual Report etc.? If sub-standard or poor Chinese teaching at ESF should be accepted as the norm, then would it be different when it comes to French and Spanish (which are also quite popular as the Second Language choice in IBDP)? Should ESF parents also accept sub-standard or poor teaching in these 2 languages too? If this is really what to expect of the school, I wouldn't say the school is doing its job properly.
作者: FattyDaddy 時間: 12-5-4 01:52
HKTHK 發表於 12-5-4 01:11
Do you think it is beneficial or essential for kids in HK to learn Chinese?
I do think it is both beneficial and essential for kids to learn Chinese if they are likely to spend a major part of their lives in the Greater China area.
Having said that, there are different types of children in international schools:-
(1) Children of foreign visitors to Hongkong
(2) Children of Hongkongers who are also foreign citizens
(3) Children of local Hongkongers
For most children in group (1) and some in group (2), knowing Chinese is perhaps a "nice to have" more than an essential skill, because this part of the world may just be their temporary home.
作者: william9_2003 時間: 12-5-4 02:02
本帖最後由 william9_2003 於 12-5-4 02:28 編輯
Bow 發表於 12-5-4 01:09
個老師系教Foreign Language pathway, 以過來人的身份教, 應該好D掛.
蘋果斷章取意, 嘩眾取寵... 講到中文,, 就算系大陸, 香港, 台灣, 星加波都有吾同啦...
個老師吾系中國人, 又太後生做亞head, 有人吾抵得, 益哂蘋果有新聞造. ...
唔關中文唔同事, 係有家長向蘋果舉報個 英婦所製作既教材所用語法語句好有問題,係用Google翻譯 出黎,連 港大中文系教授都指出 份教材好有問題 , 再加上佢教錯中文,竟然將 battery 解作電視,所以家長擔心絕對有道理 
何況英國大學所謂既東方研究或中文相關學科 所學既中文都只係屬於基礎程度,而且佢去北京留學只係短短一年,中文水平仲未足夠, 佢之前係英國教中文就話可以暪天過海, 係香港.....稍為有中文基礎既學生/父母都可以捉到佢中文錯處,莫講話做中文科主任
HKTHK 發表於 12-5-4 01:11
Agree that we should put a stop to this. Pointless to keep going on and on. Let's switch gear a bit. Do you think it is beneficial or essential for kids in HK to learn Chinese?
依加全球愈來愈重視亞洲/中國市場,留學生/移民左去西方國家既人好多都回流,係香港,中國,台灣發展,再聯絡歐美,做中間人,咁你覺得唔重要嗎???
講真,如果老師教錯法文,意大利文,日文 或者仲有得賴 招聘人才問題 , 但教錯中文就無得抵賴
作者: beeman18 時間: 12-5-4 02:30
本帖最後由 beeman18 於 12-5-4 22:19 編輯
FattyDaddy 發表於 12-5-4 00:19
International schools themselves are an out-sourced alternative to the local education system, and m ...
Many parents are reasonable people, and (put some aside) many education institutions are giving the best they know how. If there are short-comings, these institutions will do the best to overcome or even exceed them. Parents are not expecting these institutions to defend, but rather to work to improve it. That is the obligation, that is the responsibility, and that is because they are professionals, who play a big role in educating our children.
I do not see ESF as an out-source, but rather a major player in HK. I have faith in them to improve if there are short-comings and i believe they will not provide so-call sub-standard education.
On the other note, heard it from the grapevine about the salary, and is really a "nice to have" for a lot of people in HK. Great salary comes with great responsibility.
FD, interesting comment below, and now i can see where you are coming from.
作者: nintendo 時間: 12-5-4 09:01
本帖最後由 nintendo 於 12-5-4 09:08 編輯
記得當年在加拿大中學時要學法文，第一堂被分到 "初級組"，老師是俄羅斯人，後來都試跟過法裔老師，但加拿大法文，始終被法國佬批評為不正宗，情形就如美國人，話知你祖先係來自英國定意大利，你滿口美國英文，就會被評為冇文化。我地呢 d ，學了幾年法文，覺得學識日常生活用，都好開心，理佢係唔係正宗，反正去法國時，用得著，又冇比人笑就算。
讀完書，愛上日本文化，又走去學日文，學了多年，跟過華人老師，日本人老師，學得耐，又開始知，完來關西人講野同關東唔同，識了一些大阪人，佢地講野好粗魯。
學語文，好多人都唔會知老師掂唔掂，唔好講得遠，你叫我教小朋友講普通話，我掂架，尤其如果小朋友和家長都唔識普通話，我教得唔好，你鬼知。
去教鬼妹鬼仔普通話，真係易過乜，教錯你又唔知，讀得唔標準你又唔知。
即係點解香港學生，由三歲學英文，學了十幾年都可以咁差，就係因為老師唔掂，但有幾多人覺得香港人學英文一定要 100% 英國人？比個澳洲鬼你，個個當係寶。係 d 傳統名校先有本事，請 d 英文水平高的老師，先能夠叫做英文好 d。咁你話老師水平係唔係好重要。
esf 呢個 case，如果係小朋友學的係法文，講真，又真係鬼知個老師叻唔叻，小朋友唔識，家長又多數唔識，小朋友學了兩三堂，學識講 bonjour，"今晚打老虎"，亞媽即刻覺得個仔好叻。
好衰唔衰，今次係學中文，又好衰唔衰，個家長識中文，d 教材比家長睇到好差。呢件事曝光，我即刻叫個仔比佢去學日文的 notes 比我睇下，話晒我學過下，識得分有冇錯，睇過冇問題，一身鬆晒。
好意外有人話 esf 老師中文爛係冇問題。嘩，大佬，你理我係學中文定法文，總之教錯就唔可以。鬼婆老師唔係問題，問題係佢話 battery 係 "電視"，連基本字詞都唔識，點教？
唔好將 esf 應唔應該教中文拉入黎講，其實個問題套落去法文德文都一樣。
老師本身水平唔夠，先係問題重點。
其實呢度個幾個為 esf 辯護的，都好似冇仔女在 esf 讀中學，唔明點解比 d 真係有仔女讀緊 esf 中學的重盲目。我希望你地記住你地講過乜，如果有一天你仔女去 esf 中學讀，而個老師教 d 法文德文或日文錯漏百出，你唔好投訴。
作者: HKTHK 時間: 12-5-4 10:13
回復 FattyDaddy 的帖子
Agree with you on this. Learning Mandarin is both beneficial and essential and I would say probably for all of group 2 and 3. Reminds me of learning English when I was young. Everyone has to learn English and that is encouraged both in school and by parents. Not being able to communicate in English is like the death knell to getting into good universities or finding a good job. Nowadays, it is both English and Mandarin.
English instruction back then was pretty terrible though. Not quite KGV-like but generally a pretty low standard.
作者: kcvtsai 時間: 12-5-4 11:53
I'm sorry, but why does going to an international school automatically makes learning Chinese or any subjects (besides English) as sub-standard is acceptable? Where is the logic in that? In particular, when the things taught are WRONG!
Going to any educational institute means you learn things properly.... not wrongly...
作者: Fatrara 時間: 12-5-4 13:13
If I did not hear it wrong, the teacher in question is a niece of the principal of KGV. Students and parents of KGV are actually very frustrated by this. They are now putting pressure to amend this. I hope we can support them.
It is absolutely stupid of the ESF management would allow this to happen while they are fighting with the government on the issue of subvention. I guess it is like all educational institutions, most teachers, students and parents are reasonable, it is the management which is so out of touch.
作者: Fatrara 時間: 12-5-4 13:25
By the way, if I have a kid studying at ESF secondary school and paying some HK$8,000+ a month, I surely have the right to demand they put qualified teachers to teach my kid, regardless of the subjects.
作者: annie40 時間: 12-5-4 13:34
回復 Mighty 的帖子
Mighty,
记得八年前, ESF 已重金礼聘当时CIS 的中文系主任Wang Xiao-ping (with impressive doctor degree in Chinese and Education ) , 担当Chinese Advise. 成立独立部门专门研究合适的教材 , 编写给ESF的学生来学习中文. 如是者过了三年, 约五年前 ESF 开始是小学高年级每天有中文课堂, 原来教材是采有SIS 的 Singapore Textbook. 根本无ESF教材这回事, 研究做足几年, 可能有几千页的保告书, 让鬼老管理层地个明白, 但看不见对学习中文有何俾益.
ESF 当然想 撹好中文, 其实全部香港的IS 都想, 因为除了成绩彪丙如GSIS 外, 有D卖点, 好多人棒场, 其它学校也明白中文优秀是推销学校的重点之一. 是客源的保证.
基本上全香港没有一间IS 有合适自己的一套教材, 全部是拿Singapore or Shanghai, Beijing 的教科书, 然后东一课, 西一课的学习, 非常缺欠连贯性. 非常努力的是ISF, 她们的老师真的是自行研制教材的, 或尽量编辑合适资料. 但听闻老师下班时间是晚上八点, 九点,. 再者他们的初小是全部中文科的, (except English). 可以很快速地掌握中国语文.
曾问讯一些学者友人, 今天大家争往学中文, 为何你们不考虑编辑中文课程给IS 孩子, 他们笑语在港的IS 孩子不超出一两万, 要编成一套教材的时间和花费太巨, 成本和效益绝不相抵, 因此是市场太细, 根本无人会投资的. 今天连美国人也赶紧学中文, 或许第一套标准的教材会由美国编印呢.
有关中文老师, IS校长是甚么也能管, 就是没能力管中文部, 校长永远唔知上中文科有几甘沈闷, 个老师有无料也不知. 唯有看IB, 和 其他公开试成绩做参考就算, 成绩好的大部分靠补习, 有人蒙混过关, 校长一定唔多觉.
annie
作者: Mighty 時間: 12-5-4 17:06
本帖最後由 Mighty 於 12-5-4 12:07 編輯
回復 annie40 的帖子
其実我投訴過比現任校長、但他是覚得没大問題。 也没大理会我説SJS的中文教得差。 我問我女的老師、如果我選択不在外捕習、以現在的進度、真的可以考IB？ 老師説捕習是個別家長選択、不補考IB,是没問題的、説個個在SHATIｎ COLLEGE都是這様考。 但有哪一位是不補習的？ 毎一位老師都是５時前散BAND,点会有時間編集課程、現在用的書、簡直是浪費時間。 １個CYCLE只写５－６個詞語、辺到可以学到中文。 如果用這様多銭養一班不太勤力的老師、倒不如如我之前所説、放棄学中文、用這些銭放在ESF専長的項目。 教師的資歴不是差的、但就是没系統、各有各做。ESF的学生要学中文、就去陸陳。 没有残体費柴中文班、毎日仲可早４５分鐘放学添。
作者: bobbycheung 時間: 12-5-4 17:30
Mighty 發表於 12-5-4 17:06
回復 annie40 的帖子
其実我投訴過比現任校長、但他是覚得没大問題。 也没大理会我説SJS的中文教得差。 ...
作者: annie40 時間: 12-5-4 17:52
哗! 似乎你对ESF的中文是极度失望. 我都唔多价意IS 没中文课, 多些时间玩和干别的有效益的学习也好.
但中文堂还是有点价值的, 上堂可以温故知新, 做得好时有老师赞赏吓, 同学仔羡慕 , 都几好. 只是去陸陳, 更加唔知学中文为物.
另外IB 的 second language, 应读物野好? 法文, 德文, 日文? 幸运地拿得六,七分 , 其语文水平还是十分肤浅的, 去到德国还是说话口质质, 没什么实际用途的
您间学校的中文老师有点虚伪, 话唔补习都得? 千期咪信佢, 我那间IS 的老师好坦白, 上中文科的学生,她们最关心的是有否私人补习, 如果无补习的学生, 几乎是保证去Group 2 和Group 3. Group one 一定你无份,
你真有guts, 会向校长投诉, 我认识的中国家长平时私下对中文甚有意见, 但唔会话比校长知, 曾听闻officially 有整整齐齐二十个家长签名, 就有机会请走不合格的老师(或太懒惰的), 点知D家长'phew' 一声走左,. 非常怕事.
annie
作者: WYmom 時間: 12-5-4 18:18
本帖最後由 WYmom 於 12-5-4 18:21 編輯
回復 Mighty 的帖子
Many students in SC do not have extra Chinese class after school in secondary school...the school's Chinese teaching is satisfactory. More students in primary schools go to extra Chinese tutor class though.
作者: annie40 時間: 12-5-4 18:22
回復 Mighty 的帖子
要投诉一定要有实际理据, 否则校长如何服众. 下次要学埋科学检举, 有凭据效果会好得多!
其实有些家长也太紧张, 曾有IS家长觉得新来的英文老师英文科教得差, 合力联名赶老师走, 最终老师走了. 家长一定觉得理直气壮, 我就觉得是有点霸道, 是有钱大洒吗? 孩子少念一年英文, 语文能力不会有大退步, 但对人却因而少了一份包容的心, 少一份温柔, 更难得到'幸福'.
作者: Mighty 時間: 12-5-4 18:47
回復 WYmom 的帖子
Well my child is in P4 now and she is still pathway 2 lower level. I cant see her future, to be honest. I am helper her of course and she is having outside help as well. ESF is an English school so I can understand their Chinese level will not be very high. But its the team of teachers that is bugging me. HEA下HEA下、早点収工。 仲差過GREEDY PIG DONALD DUCK、没有做好分工(^-^).
作者: Mighty 時間: 12-5-4 18:53
回復 bobbycheung 的帖子
例如、如何辯論、Or DRAMA CLASS也可以。
作者: WYmom 時間: 12-5-4 20:41
回復 Mighty 的帖子
I don't know SJS, my kids were all in pathway 3 in other ESF primary, after school I helped them a lot in studying traditional Chinese and they can continue in first language Chinese in secondary school. In primary school, need to do a lot to help them to develop a solid base and interest in Chinese, if they have developed interest to read Chinese story books, watch Chinese movies etc., they have no problem in having a reasonable standard in secondary school.
SC has many levels of Chinese to suit for different standard of students. Their teachers are good. So don't worry.
作者: DucklingYau 時間: 12-5-8 10:59
KGV 係我母校嚟架! 我看完這篇報後都搖頭嘆息... 他們的問題是在一個華人社會內 (周圍有大量合資格教中文的老師) 找一個不合格的老師教中文 (她的國籍反而不是問題核心)。如果學校有心辦中文科, 請聘請合資格的教師 - 就算大多數學生把中文作為第二語言咁學, 都不應該教學生一些文法不通的句子嘛! 七萬蚊人工係香港請到大把人教普/中啦!
講開又講, 我細個讀書時 (九X年代) 冇中文 (作為第二語言) 讀架。
作者: annie40 時間: 12-5-8 14:24
回復 Mighty 的帖子
Mighty,
小四还有时间, 提议让孩子学习完整的汉语拼音和普通话课程, 普通话流利对中文写作有极大帮助, 拼音准确率高, 方便上网自学, 在班中加强自信.心, 无论ESF教得如何, 不要等, 尝试自己教或外出找帮手.
学语文跟长跑很相似, 最难是头3K, 和最后的一段, 做好开头(可以密集点), 后面便可以舒舒服服, 高中功课量不少, 到时交由老师鞭策吧!
共勉之!
annie,
作者: awah112 時間: 12-5-8 19:40
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作者: Mighty 時間: 12-5-9 10:55
回復 annie40 的帖子
Hi ANNIE, ALTHOUGH 遅了一点、其実我也都開始補習了。 PRIVATE TUITOR,是内地来的老師、非常有心。開始時有点懐疑的、因老師没有適合国際学生的教材、SHE IS MORE COMFORTABLE WITH OLDER KIDS AS WELL. BUT後来調整了、除了校内本「幼稚園」教材外、老師在書城買了数本STORY BOOKS,女児非常LIKE。 She even brings it to school to read....I am really really amazed. She doesnt understand every word but at least she is taking the interest to read, which I never saw that happened in the past. 所以我都係覚得 SJS的中文真係可有可無、PARENTS自己take care 就OK。 将資源放在別処、学生更加獲益良多。
作者: annie40 時間: 12-5-9 11:51
将資源放在別処、学生更加獲益良多.
**** **** ****
小女念三四年级时, 我亦有类似想法, 后来见她的中文慢慢地上轨道, 我还是要感激学校有中文科. 否则孩子连initiative 都无. 令千金真可爱, 会带本中文图书回学校show and tell 已是个好开始, 想想几年前她们不也是常常戴英文书和玩具更同学分享吗? 今天个个的英语是bilibala, 学得好, 几年已是略有小成了.
记得天平的普通话拼音科程做得很认真, 除了家教的老师, 可考累让女儿跟LS 一起学习, 顺便多一点认识繁体字. 以前收费很便宜, 才HK$600/4 堂, 每堂1.5 hrs.
小女八九岁时咪一样傻傻吓, 今日咪几好. 大案定D!
annie
作者: DucklingYau 時間: 12-5-9 15:20
回復 awah112 的帖子
我八歲前是在香港讀local school的, 所以移民去加國前已經過了文字關。移民後因有大量時間 (外國小學生功課小嘛), 每天課後我花了很多時間在家中閲讀 (加國冬天長嘛, 天冷時媽媽不讓我們出街玩), 自己看完了媽媽書桇上的書, 中英文書均有, 有時候我會寫些東西自娛。八歲後學的中文算是自修回來的。九零年回流後便入讀KGV了。我自八歲後便沒有接受正式的中文寫作訓練, 所以現在寫中文字時偶爾還會執筆忘字。
不過在我KGV年代認識的朋友當中 (年齡包括七十後及八十後), 大多數土生土長的同學, 如果祇在ESF system內受教育, 而家裏沒有安排額外的中文補習 (在我成長的年代, 家長也普遍不重視中文教育) , 他們會懂講廣東話但衹會讀寫小量漢字。上個月我剛剛跟兩位在Island School畢業的朋友去旅行, 當她們在飛機上看到我在閲讀中文書時, 齊聲感嘆:「真係要多D練吓睇中文字, 唔係睇野睇得好慢。」這是我在國際學校畢業的朋友圈內常見的現象。
作者: annie40 時間: 12-5-9 15:39
谢谢分享! 看你用中文跟大家沟通, 是真正的billingual 人才. 比其它IS孩子, 似乎头上是多了一遍天, 倒要感谢LS, 妈妈的书和自己的自修精神. 令人敬佩. 曾认识一些九岁后移民美国的氦子, 连讲广东话也是困难的.
作者: KH 時間: 12-5-10 12:36
今天看完李純恩的專欄http://blogcity.me/blog/list_blog_express.asp?f=YKQTHMZ4W1117674, 我很認同他的說法, 但他在駡老師蠢蛋時, 一定不知道, 早在一開始就有老師向學校反映這位老師不適任, 雖然不是所有的老師都這麼做, 但最後結果是去反映的人走了, 一走還走了兩個, 兩位都是資深老師, 其中一位還是原來中文部主任, 一個部門才多少人, 走兩個還不嚴重嗎, 現在的主任已經是這位被投訴的老師, 又前面去向校長投訴的人都陣亡了, 還要多少老師去當炮灰呢, 學校的一意孤行, 讓家長不得不將家醜外揚, 何其難堪...但又如何....當大家在這裏天馬行空的討論著所有話題, 校方依舊我行我素, 會不會教都一樣領七萬, 這是什麼道理!!
作者: william9_2003 時間: 12-5-11 15:56
本帖最後由 william9_2003 於 12-5-11 17:36 編輯
KGV 俾個英婦做 中文科主任 呢個係極大極之大爭議 , 全香港,全中國大陸咁多人以中文為母語 唔通個個都可以做中文老師咩???? 係華人社會做中文老師係要有極高要求 .係香港 做中文老師除左要大學 中文系 畢業外, 仲會要求佢係 會考,A-level 時有 修讀中國文學 ,中國歷史 ,再加上依加 中文老師要考埋國家級及香港既普通話基準試 ,教 IS 亦要讀埋以中文為第二語言 教法課程,所以中文老師真係唔易做 ,更何況做中文科主任. 
作者: victorialai 時間: 12-5-14 23:28
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作者: KH 時間: 12-5-24 12:32
英基家長炮轟校方
質疑英籍中文教師水平
[size=150%]【明報專訊】英基轄下的英皇佐治五世學校，早前被揭發一份中文科教材錯漏百出，負責製作的英籍女教師遭質疑不諳中文，卻照樣被擢升為科主任。校方昨晚舉行家長會解釋事件，承認校內雖實行「普教中」（普通話教中文），但升級面試時無測試該名教師的普通話水平；在場家長隨即猛烈批評，憂子女成績會被拖垮。
[size=150%]認無測試普通話水平
據學校資料顯示，該名英籍教師Katie Squires於倫敦大學主修東方研究、中文及語文學，曾留學北京1年，畢業後在英國的學校任教中文，近年再加入英皇佐治五世學校，2月升任中文科主任。但有校內生指出，Katie上課時不但逾九成時間非以普通話授課，面對四字成語，也只能依字直說不能解其用意。
家長憂拖垮子女成績
由於事件惹關注，學校昨晚舉行歷時近兩句鐘的家長會，逾150名家長及學生出席。不少家長認為學校做法令人不解，「學校也不會聘請不諳英文的教師，教授英語課」，要求Katie 在會上展示其普通話及中文的聽、講能力，否則憂子女成績會被拖垮。
校長韋耿施（Ed Wickins）承認，在工作面試時無測試Katie的普通話水平，但強調科主任應重管理才能，反問家長「為何不給她一次機會？」。韋又認為Katie的學術資歷足夠，只需在會上講述個人職責，毋須即場向家長作任何證明。
在場有家長鼓譟，認為她無能力調控科目內所有教材及課程內容，但校方並無因此改變初衷，或作出撇換教師的建議，只表示會接納家長意見，包括加強科目教師的合作，以改善有關問題。
作者: awah112 時間: 12-5-24 12:37
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作者: jaceson 時間: 12-7-1 01:32
回復 tingtingting 的帖子
There is legit nothing wrong with teaching Chinese as a foreign language... but there is definitely something wrong with an unprofessional teacher attempting to teach other students Chinese depending on google translate to do the work for her (no offence). My son is in Set 1 for chinese currently and it is shocking that she is appointed the role as the head of chinese!
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