教育王國

標題: 香港教育真的那麼差？ [打印本頁]

作者: 雙儿 時間: 11-9-14 22:02 標題: 香港教育真的那麼差？

Just came back from a holiday in Seoul with my family and read some PMs. They somehow reminded me of an article in Newsweek I read on my outbound flight. It was about PISA which was also covered by some before (stccmc?). Let me recap the top 5 in PISA 2009 survey:

Reading

Maths

Science

Shanghai

Korea

Singapore

Finland

Hong Kong

Korea

Singapore

Taipei

Japan

Even discounting the city vs country factor, Hong Kong’s numbers should still look quite decent, at least according to the Newsweek article. In the 2011 maths proficiency survey, the US brainiest state, Massachusetts, still trails far behind Hong Kong. Then comes the question: What went wrong? PISA or our own perception of Hong Kong’s education system and policies?

[ 本帖最後由雙儿於 11-9-16 14:23 編輯 ]

作者: 囝囝爸 時間: 11-9-14 22:57

香港家長眼界高, 又有隔離飯香心態, 慣以外地最高水準比較本地.

有批評才有進步, 香港學生不得了!

作者: stccmc 時間: 11-9-15 01:10

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作者: Kanba 時間: 11-9-15 09:28

It's interesting Finnish middle school students can compete with East Asian students (I take Singaporeans Chinese culture dominated). Are Finnish enjoying the merits of both the creative/enriching education and the exam-based/solid-foundation education?

作者: wong616 時間: 11-9-15 10:07

人口集中影響描樣結果，所以香港和新加坡的結果與台灣等地域較大，人口分佈分散的地區比較優勝是其他原因。

作者: judy 時間: 11-9-15 11:19

香港教育真的唔差！

作者: Shoeshine 時間: 11-9-15 11:21

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作者: judy 時間: 11-9-15 11:22

原帖由 Kanba 於 11-9-15 09:28 發表
It's interesting Finnish middle school students can compete with East Asian students (I take Singaporeans Chinese culture dominated). Are Finnish enjoying the merits of both the creative/enriching edu ...

聽講呢個試能很好地測驗學生的真正能力(不是考試能力)，學生得此成績可喜可賀。

[ 本帖最後由 judy 於 11-9-15 11:24 編輯 ]

作者: Kanba 時間: 11-9-16 09:38

According to wiki, East Asian & Finland were the top-score countries/cities in 2006 & 2009. For USA, the rich regions are up to the top ones. If the education system & approach among the Northern European countries are similar, only Finland stands out. Why?

Western schools rely less on homework and exam. What do the kids do after school? If they have parents with them and invest their time on reading, exploring and playing, they become smarter than us reasonably. It's a luxury for moms to do it in HK. Home helpers are not supposed/paid to educate our kids.

[ 本帖最後由 Kanba 於 11-9-16 11:30 編輯 ]

作者: 雙儿 時間: 11-9-16 15:17

原帖由 judy 於 11-9-15 11:19 發表
香港教育真的唔差！

我的感覺確如此。特別是基礎教育公營教育部份，大概無人能及。直資前的日子，君不見大多數名門望族後人皆出身公立教育。國際學校一直成不了氣候。

而可笑的是，香港的中產階級始终是胆小，又或者是貪便宜，要等到政府俾錢傳統名校轉直資才敢放心支持私立教育。

家長送子女往直資，表面上是給子女較好的學習機會，但會不會是下意識中，是想給子女一個"來自良好家境孩子"的標籤，希望子女「群」番socio-economic background差唔多嘅細路？

BK一直有這樣的神話：國際學校，特別是GSIS，要比本地學校優勝，而似乎已變成公理，無需証明。真的如此？

PISA has done a study on private schools and its major finding is: http://www.pisa.oecd.org/dataoecd/6/43/48482894.pdf

Students who attend private schools tend to perform significantly better in the PISA assessments than students who attend public schools; but students in public schools in a similar socio-economic context as private schools tend to do equally well.

The impression we have the internatiional schools are better than the local ones has a lot to do with students' parents, not the system. For one thing, I don't think their teachers are better. They may be speaking better English. But I just can't see too many excellent teachers forgoing their teaching careers back home in exchange for adding "Hong Kong" to their resumes.

[ 本帖最後由雙儿於 11-9-16 15:18 編輯 ]

作者: Shoeshine 時間: 11-9-16 16:22

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作者: Kanba 時間: 11-9-16 21:02

是在談論PISA成績吧

作者: Shoeshine 時間: 11-9-16 21:57

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作者: stccmc 時間: 11-9-16 22:29

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作者: mattsmum 時間: 11-9-16 23:50

http://www.zaobao.com/special/fa ... ce2face110904.shtml

萨尔博教授：芬兰教育不相信考试

潘星华 (2011-09-04)

　　过去十年，芬兰有两方面值得骄傲，一是诺基亚手机，一是教育。自从苹果iPhone以横扫千军的姿态面世后，诺基亚的光芒消失了，可是芬兰式教育，还是引起世界关注。

　　这个学生假期多、上课时数少、没有补习、没有额外补课、没有排名次、没有考试、没有压力的北欧小国，过去十年在经济合作发展组织（OECD）每三年举办一次的“国际学生评估”（Programme for International Student Assessment，简称PISA）中，数学、科学、阅读的能力一直名列前茅，让人百思不解。

　　芬兰能在PISA独占鳌头，连芬兰人也感到意外。因为他们从不强调排名，教师只尽心把每个学生教好。

　　让芬兰人感到最高兴的是，各国教育界人士纷纷到芬兰取经，连带也带动了芬兰的旅游业。

　　近日，以研究教育与发展见长的芬兰教授帕思·萨尔博格（Pasi Sahlberg）应邀到新加坡，在一项有关幼儿教育的领导论坛上发表主题演讲。他接受本报记者的专访，畅谈了芬兰教育与众不同之处。

　　芬兰法律规定，学生在六年级之前，都不能以等级或分数来评断他们。

　　对分流考试习以为常的新加坡记者而言，听到芬兰教授帕思·萨尔博格（51岁）的这一席话，受到的震惊是不言而喻的。

　　萨尔博格说：“当教师要评断某个学生的能力和表现时，我们要求用文字描述，详细说明，而不是简单地用分数或等级来评断。因为每个孩子各有所长，教师只有通过种种活动来了解学生，发掘他们的潜力。”......

作者: Shoeshine 時間: 11-9-17 00:12

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作者: 囝囝爸 時間: 11-9-17 01:32 標題: 高考狀元為何愛港校內地教育理應思考

2011-07-27 來源：人民網　

北大、清華的“狀元爭奪戰”是歷年高考熱門話題，但今年他們遇到了異軍突起的競爭對手。香港大學近日表示，今年共招收17名內地各省市高考狀元，比去年增加了1倍多。從2006年港校在內地招生範圍增加到20個省市後，北大、清華招收狀元的比例下降了22%。

　　一次借書150本

　　一年一度的高考生源爭奪戰接近尾聲，香港高校再次成為關注焦點。今年，申請香港院校的內地考生人數比去年增長12%，有30名省市狀元填報了港大，17名省市狀元獲得港大16萬到48萬港元的獎學金。

　　港大校長徐立之25日表示，香港大學真的沒有刻意和內地高校“搶狀元”，學生也不是為了獎學金才來港大，而是覺得適合在港大學習才來。

　　香港高校的魅力何在？首先是過硬的辦學水準。據介紹，香港採用英式教學體制，國際化的教育理念和開放視野的教育導向，為香港高校贏得了世界的認同。

　　港校的優勢還在於更寬鬆、自由的環境。港大新聞學教授陳婉瑩認為，相對於內地高校而言，學術自由是香港高校的重要特點之一。

　　一位在港就讀的內地學生說，他深深為港大的圖書館觸動，因為一次性可借150本書，可以借半年。宿舍，床上，一半空間都是書。

　　讀港校壓力也大

　　但是，並非每個內地學生都適合港校。今年，港大從報考的30名省市狀元中只挑選了11名給予全額獎學金。“適合港大的學生要有較強的獨立思考與自理能力，能獨立做決定，有自己的想法，能面對挑戰，不能太脆弱，”港大中國事務處的黃依倩說：“這裡競爭非常大，除了學習，學生還要做好許多事情。”

　　多位教育專家指出，港校的全英文授課，對學生學習的自律要求很高，每年都有內地學生因無法適應港校而選擇休學或被學校勸退。因此，並不是所有的內地學生都適合去港校。同時，也不是所有的香港高校都比內地高校強。內地學生應根據個人的專業、興趣、長遠規劃等實際情況，在兩地高校中作出選擇。

　　內地經濟快速發展，就業機會多，在這方面，內地高校更具優勢。

　　應向港校取經

　　港校現象引發內地教育界的思考。教育專家認為，在全球化競爭的壓力下，內地高招乃至高等教育改革步伐應該加快。

　　中國農大校長柯炳生指出，內地高招制度應實行平行志願，保障學生的選擇權；增加統考次數，打破“一次高考定終身”；規範自主招生高校的面試等方面進行改革和完善。

　　香港高校“寬進嚴出”，對於不合格的學生他們會勸退。對於畢業生，會進行專門的就業指導，尤其是技能方面的培訓，以使他們儘快適應社會。對此，21世紀教育研究院副院長熊丙奇說，內地高校普遍存在“重選拔、輕培養”的傾向，這與西方高校的做法恰恰相反。他建議，內地高招制度改革也應體現“寬進嚴出”的教育理念，降低“入口”門檻，提高“出口”標準，這樣才能促使大學更加注重提升教育品質和核心競爭力，使高校步入良性競爭軌道。

作者: peter_pan 時間: 11-9-17 10:43

I am afraid I do not understand your argument.
The assessment focuses on application of the knowledge learnt rather than regurgitation of facts.
Isn't that what local school students are supposed to be weak at?
I don't see how drilling & training can give Hong Kong students an advantage in such assessments.

原帖由 Shoeshine 於 11-9-16 21:57 發表
It says "the PISA assessments take a literacy perspective, which focuses on the extent to which (15-year-old) students can apply the knowledge and skills they have learned and practised at school when confronted with situations and challenges for which that knowledge may be relevant. The assessment is forward-looking: rather than focusing on the extent to which these students have mastered a specific school curriculum, it looks at their ability to use their knowledge and skills to meet real-life challenges."

One would be surprised if Hong Kong doesn't do well in this kind of test as a typical 15-year-old student would have spent most of his life doing "drilling" and "training" day in and day out.

作者: Shoeshine 時間: 11-9-17 20:57

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作者: peter_pan 時間: 11-9-17 22:40

If the students learn more and can still apply their knowledge appropriately, surely that counts as a true measure of educational success!
Local school students have always been belittled with the saying that all they can do is regurgitating facts without being able to analyse & apply what they have learnt.
But this test appears to have refuted this claim.
If students can be taught a much larger amount and still be able to not only retain such knowledge, but to understand how to apply such knowledge, then I would say that the teaching can't be all that bad!

作者: stccmc 時間: 11-9-17 22:57

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作者: Shoeshine 時間: 11-9-17 23:30

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作者: peter_pan 時間: 11-9-18 08:31

I am not arguing for the Hong Kong educational system - I mistrust it as much as anyone myself.
What I am saying is that perhaps we have over-stereotyped HK students.
We always say that they can only regurgitate facts (& I was of that view too), but I was very surprised that PISA seems to refute that.
We also say that they don't enjoy studying, that they don't pick up a book after school, that their command of languages are poor....etc.
But do we have any objective studies for these?
I know we all say that we know kids like that but we also see kids who are the opposite.
Perhaps we would be surprised by another 'PISA' test that may dispel more of such stereotyped views?
And the fact that HK has done well in PISA, which by the way I don't see as knowledge based, credit should still be given where credit is due.

作者: Kanba 時間: 11-9-18 10:07

如果PISA成績能夠如實反映一個普通香港中學生的水平，而僱主和大學普遍對我們的中學生的印象不佳的話，這只能說明其他地方的中學生更差。

如果香港中學教育算是世界頂尖，三大大學也執亞洲牛耳，大學生的質素仍然為人詬病，那麼可推想本地中學大學對尖子的栽培不利，教不出一流的人才。這又是事實嗎?

作者: Shoeshine 時間: 11-9-18 11:35

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作者: ANChan59 時間: 11-9-18 12:21 標題: 回復 24# Kanba 的帖子

如果香港中學教育算是世界頂尖，三大大學也執亞洲牛耳，大學生的質素仍然為人詬病，那麼可推想本地中學大學對尖子的栽培不利，教不出一流的人才。這又是事實嗎?

Just my two cents:

1. How universities grade their faculties? Teaching or research?Research for students or UGC? What you measure, what you get.......Most the teaching loading in our universities is taken up by teaching assistants.....

2. Most senior executives or bosses critised fresh graduates' performance, not just intellectural level and language proficiency, more on attitudes and inter-personal relationship etc.....

作者: stccmc 時間: 11-9-18 13:03

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作者: stccmc 時間: 11-9-18 13:06

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作者: ANChan59 時間: 11-9-18 13:16 標題: 回覆 28# stccmc 的文章

Sorry, next time your turn....

:;pppp:

I am an user of fresh graduates from different universities and heavily involved in professional assessment of some programs in HK universities. It's a straight forward replies to kanba's questions...

I also have some thoughts about PISA tests, but need some time to organise those views.

[ 本帖最後由 ANChan59 於 11-9-18 13:29 編輯 ]

作者: Kanba 時間: 11-9-18 22:58

ANChan and Stccmc

Thanks for the valuable cents.

Very much agreed. The success factors are attitudes, people relations and intelligence (not just memory of studied materials). These are out of syllabus of the public / school exams.

作者: Shoeshine 時間: 11-9-18 23:21

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作者: Kanba 時間: 11-9-18 23:36 標題: 回復 31# Shoeshine 的帖子

我都係咁話.

我地真係要加強國語英語, 同思考能力. 尤其從小學做起. 唔係我地點值高人地咁多人工.

作者: Yanamami 時間: 11-9-19 09:41

禁即係話HK教育做不到所謂的"全人教育", 只製造出一群"高分低能"?

作者: judy 時間: 11-9-19 11:24

Students who attend private schools tend to perform significantly better in the PISA assessments than students who attend public schools; but students in public schools in a similar socio-economic context as private schools tend to do equally well.

無他，根正苗紅，在咁多數据面前，唔接受都唔得。

記得嗰本<<怪誕經濟學>>有一章研究父母選校。佢發覺，有去參加選校的父母，其子士就算入唔到名校，在普通學校就學，成績也不差於名校的。我常用此例子為自勉和鼓勵他人：父母重視教育，仔女差極有個譜。

昨天又和阿大阿二去打波，阿二運動天份只有40分左右。但我睇阿大和阿二對打，如果阿大唔一拍打死佢嘅話，阿二前前後後、左左右右，高波、吊波、平推波、网前波有紋有路，比其他場的大人打得好睇好多。呢啲咪父母嘅心機囉。

BK一直有這樣的神話：國際學校，特別是GSIS，要比本地學校優勝，而似乎已變成公理，無需証明。真的如此？

PISA有研究指出，香港之所以成績优良，原因之一就是厚薪吸引，招聘优秀人材為教師。以前，香港的教師(中學)，幾乎是最top 5%的人材，現時，不知是不是了。我記得，PISA好似認為教師應是top 10%的人材才好。所以，就人材來說，我估以前的津校，特別是名校，就師資來說，一定唔差於另類學校。

以公開試來說，我讀書的年代，滙價對比是HKCEE的C等同英國試的A。現時聽講HKCEE的D-C等同英國試的A。不過點都好，如果以公開試來比的話，我估主流學校的考試專家點都唔差過另類學校的。

當然，另類學校的确有其优勢，因錢多的關係，可提供更多選擇給學生。打個比喻，M記的包都食得過，平平地20+，點解咁平，獨沽一味也。但在大洒店吃一個同樣的包，價錢就貴好多:分分鐘成個月得一個人點，佢又有揾個識做包嘅，又要keep咁多料，唔貴就假。

另一方面，讀另類學校的确輕鬆啲，至於點解輕鬆，我想最重要是家長多米啲，升学選擇自然多啲。主流學校嘅學生，主要瞄着三大，自然要拚命了。主流學校點解要多測多考，當然有其原因和好壞，唔講啦。

後記：幾個月前，有人請大少去中環吃美芝蓮評為二星級嘅法國餐廳吃法式東波肉，大少吃完大叫揾笨，佢話同屋企嘅差唔多，最多係好少少。

作者: ilovethiscow 時間: 11-9-19 12:12

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作者: Shoeshine 時間: 11-9-19 13:59

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作者: Shoeshine 時間: 11-9-19 14:20

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作者: judy 時間: 11-9-19 16:38

If 香港的教師是最top 5% (or even 10%) 的人材, then we would have less of a problem. It's because the quality of teachers makes a lot of difference.

我寫錯，應是最高學歷嗰5%人材。以前能進入大學的，大概係佔5%到。

作者: ilovethiscow 時間: 11-9-19 17:23 標題: 回覆 37# Shoeshine 的文章

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作者: mattsmum 時間: 11-9-19 20:09 標題: 回復 9# Shoeshine 的帖子

硬件（學歷）也許差不多，軟件（工作經驗、職業道德感的培養）要看在那出身。畢業就回去本地的一樣學不到。

作者: stccmc 時間: 11-9-22 23:27

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作者: 童夢2011 時間: 11-9-25 11:01

我覺得香港教育不是產出差，而是教學方式，學校制度差。

原帖由雙儿於 11-9-14 22:02 發表
Just came back from a holiday in Seoul with my family and read some PMs. They somehow reminded me of an article in Newsweek I read on my outbound flight. It was about PISA which was also covered by so ...

作者: bookreader 時間: 11-10-5 19:23

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作者: stccmc 時間: 11-10-5 22:31

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作者: cherubic 時間: 11-10-5 23:10

Are all students in HK take part in PISA assessment?

作者: NKpa 時間: 11-10-7 15:33

《泰晤士報》世界大學排行榜前200名大學數目最多的國家或地區依次為：美國、英國、荷蘭、德國、加拿大、瑞士、澳大利亞、日本、瑞典、法國、中國香港、韓國、中國、比利時、丹麥、新加坡、愛爾蘭、以色列、挪威、芬蘭。

http://big5.xinhuanet.com/gate/b ... /07/c_122124236.htm

So Finland is good at secondary school education only?

作者: Annie123 時間: 11-10-7 15:50

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作者: Annie123 時間: 11-10-7 16:02 標題: 回復 2# NKpa 的帖子

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作者: NKpa 時間: 11-10-7 17:05

Let's look at the appendix II chart from the report: Relationship between student peformance in reading and ESCS (Index of Economic, Social and Cultural Status) in Twelve Countries/Regions

ESCS is derived from the 3 variables related to family background: highest parental education, occupation and number of home possessions.

All the slopes are upward. Shanghai line is all the way above the other countries/regions, from the poorest to the richest. HK comes to the second for the ESCS below zero, but its slope is among the flattest, ie the family background impact to the student performance is among the least.

In other words, family background is a highly positive correlated factors to the student reading performance. HK has enjoyed a high and relatively even level of student reading performance across the spectrum of social classes.

作者: NKpa 時間: 11-10-7 17:52

The high reading ability in HK may (not sure) refer to Chinese reading, not English reading,...

作者: cow 時間: 11-10-7 20:33

原帖由 NKpa 於 11-10-7 15:33 發表
《泰晤士報》世界大學排行榜前200名大學數目最多的國家或地區依次為：美國、英國、荷蘭、德國、加拿大、瑞士、澳大利亞、日本、瑞典、法國、中國香港、韓國、中國、比利時、丹麥、新加坡、愛爾蘭、以色列、挪威、芬蘭 ...

世界大學排行榜前200位，香港有一半大學上榜，應是世界第一。

作者: stccmc 時間: 11-10-7 21:48

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作者: cow 時間: 11-10-8 11:32

The logo featuring Steve Jobs's silhouette incorporated into the bite of a Apple logo created by Jonathan Mak, a student at the Polytechnic University, shows HK's education is not so bad.

作者: yuengooluk 時間: 11-10-10 14:43

芬蘭教育基本上是公認為世上數一數二的.很多地方的教育官員學者都去考察,包括我們的孫公.芬蘭從七十年代開始進行教改,並成功了.我們也有教改,可是......

作者: NKpa 時間: 11-10-10 15:48 標題: 回復 53# cow 的帖子

I'm afraid one or two examples of successful students cannot give a true picture of overall students.

作者: yuengooluk 時間: 11-10-10 19:55

原帖由 NKpa 於 11-10-10 15:48 發表
I'm afraid one or two examples of successful students cannot give a true picture of overall students.

fully agree.

作者: kyliema2006 時間: 11-10-10 21:53 標題: 回復 4# cow 的帖子

這個設計不是他原創的，鬧雙胞胎又或者是抄襲的。

歡迎光臨教育王國 (/)