教育王國
標題: local school should adopt putonghua as teaching medium [打印本頁]
作者: wicked 時間: 11-1-21 18:21 標題: local school should adopt putonghua as teaching medium
1. cantonese is one of the least evolved dialects of the chinese language. less evolved means less aesthetically appreciated, which is why many mandarin speakers resent the cantonese background accent. cantonese actually sounds closer to vietnamese and thai than mandarin in terms of pronouciation. the same is the cantonese ppl's physical features which tend to be of a bigger jaw, darker skin tone and a stout physique. cantonese ppl's mental ability is also near the low end of the spectrum across china despite the cantonese area claims to be the 2nd most educated after the changjiang delta area(near shanghai), the IQ score of which ranks top, meaning even education cannot help if the gene pool quality lags too far behind. the slow evolution of cantonese is due to the warm weather and mild seasonal changes. this is also why most of the poor countries are near the equator whereas the most affluent are more on the north(in the scope of northern hemisphere).
2.there is a gap between written form of chinese and the spoken cantonese, rendering the learning process of the language less efficient if the teaching medium is in cantonese while the text books are in formal chinese.
in the coarse of evolution, the less efficient will be replaced by the more efficient; the less aesthetically appreciated will be assimilated and replaced by the more appreciated.
作者: wicked 時間: 11-1-21 18:34 標題: cantonese vs mandarin
all international schools are teaching chinese in mandarin, why local school choose otherwise?
the pronouciation of cantonese is close to the dialects spoken in central china 2000 years ago -- meaning the aesthetic level of Cantonese now is about the same as that prevalent in central china 2000 yrs ago, in other words, Cantonese has evolved very slow and thus sounds less pleasant to those with more developed aesthetic sense. this is why many mandarin speakers resent the cantonese accent.
mandarin is probably the most evolved chinese dialect, as having been subjected to influences(or blend-in) and scrutiny (or competition) from various dialects (mainly from the north and central) across china over history. the mandarin spoken by the beijing residents is probably the most pleasant to ears, thanks to the long history of beijing being the state capital(more than 1000 years). a capital city is where the elites congregate thus rendering more social selective pressure on the refinements of various aspects of human behaviour.
作者: ANChan59 時間: 11-1-21 20:02
Interesting info.....
So what?
作者: wicked 時間: 11-1-22 15:05
well, all up to how its taken.
for example some might get offended instead of just finding it interesting.
for me its enlightening. the implications and elaborations from "the least evolved" are folds, such as why cantonese culture is still not well regarded by other parts of china despite the economic affluence in the cantonese area and why cantonese ppl are the least popular group in places like universities and armies in the mainland.
作者: friendlyguy 時間: 11-1-22 18:18
Oh! My God! Intra-racism among Chinese!
原帖由 wicked 於 11-1-22 15:05 發表 
well, all up to how its taken.
for example some might get offended instead of just finding it interesting.
for me its enlightening. the implications and elaborations from "the least evolved" are fol ...
[ 本帖最後由 friendlyguy 於 11-1-22 18:20 編輯 ]
作者: stccmc 時間: 11-1-22 22:42
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作者: BookloverJ 時間: 11-1-23 00:26
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作者: wicked 時間: 11-1-23 11:30
which is why "wicked". i conspire to split up china. how is that liked?
as expected, there will be ppl jumping into racism right away. i merely pointed out the inconvenient facts. like it or not, cantonese culture in general is not well regarded throughout chinese history. racism is an easily abused word. i dont like snake but i have yet to hear speciesism.
why are the business setups around the pearl river delta more on the low end like toys and garments manufactoring whereas those around the changjiang river delta are more skills and techo oriented? coz the manpower there can cope with the demand. why are most of the major infrastructures and projects conducted in the cantonese area in the last few decades masterminded by non-cantonese chinese? why are there hardly any notable intellectuals or administrators of cantonese origin in chinese history?
the economic affluence in the cantonese area in the last half century is merely out of good luck and head start rather than cantonese culture having an edge. hk's take off happened in 1960s after the influx of immigrants and capitals from other parts of china(esp those around the shanghai area) between late 40s and 50s due to power change in the mainland. after the take off, more talents from around the world have been drawn in to help built hk an international city. without shanghai's fall, hk would have stood a much smaller chance to become what it is today.
enough history. back to the topic.
i simply dont see any advantage in clinging to a less evolved language when there is clearly a better option.
hk is the only chinese community in the world which is still teaching in cantonese. let alone the backwardness of the language, the inconsistance between the spoken form and the written form simply taxes on the learning process. how can that be an efficient way of learning? another obvious fact.
singapore didnt start off as a mandarin community but its leaders were wise enough to adopt mandarin half century ago as one of its official languages. they also adopted the simplified form of written chinese. students there in general have better writing skills than hk students in both chinese and english. judging by the physical features, most of the chinese ppl there are of similar southern chinese look as the cantonese, so it should be nothing to do with any genetic advantage.
at the time of hk's rise, competition facing hk wastn that keen. the disavantage of cantonese was probably less obvious. with china's open up, a very different picture.
if ppl feels more comfortable to indulge in a hate agenda behind this topic, fine with me.
作者: ANChan59 時間: 11-1-23 13:03
If our medium of instruction changed from Cantonese and or English to PTH, HK is another tiny city in China, no matter in south or north. What's our competitive advantages? (I emphasise on Cantonese and or English.)
The economical development of HK and PRD for the last half century is historical. We also bear in mind HK SME didn't have sufficient support from colonial and SAR government, so just focus on light industries and shirt term success is natural. As the resources and human captial of SME are so tight and the vision may not long term enough.
Shanghai and Beijing have a shorter learning curves, as using HK and PRD as testing points (摸著石頭過河). The Central Government can have more time to plan and patch up the weaknesses of those economic areas and developments. Also high tech and heavy industries based on human captial and significant support from government in terms of finanical and political resources. That's HK and PRD are lack of.
I remembered that when I was in high school, we also debated on the difference of southern and northern Chinese. I forgot most of the details, but I still remember the conclusion was they have different strengths and weaknesses and historical development. Not necessary have right or wrong answers.
Just curosity, if we change from Cantonese and or English medium of instruction to PTH, then we will not be marginised and prosperous based on the weak leadership of HKSAR government??? And better education???
作者: friendlyguy 時間: 11-1-24 02:58
cantonese is one of the least evolved dialects of the chinese language. less evolved means less aesthetically appreciated
Evolve basically is a biological terms. The idea of least or most evolved is meaningless. All species in the world have all evolved for the same length of time. It just that some species remain largely unchange. Evolution is about what fits the situation best for survival. So, if a species remain unchange over time, it means that it already very well adapted to the environment. I have not study lingistic. However, I think this can also apply to language development. I would say Cantonese is more 'ancient' than Mandarin. I also heard some scholars said 詩詞歌賦 is better appreciate in Cantonese.
many mandarin speakers resent the cantonese background accent
Many Cantones speakers resent the Mandarin background accent too.
cantonese actually sounds closer to vietnamese and thai than mandarin in terms of pronouciation
Sorry, I speak Cantonese but I can't understand a word of Vietnamese and Thai. However, I can understand Mandarin.
cantonese ppl's mental ability is also near the low end of the spectrum across china
Can you quote a scientifc study about this?
in the coarse of evolution, the less efficient will be replaced by the more efficient; the less aesthetically appreciated will be assimilated and replaced by the more appreciated.
Have you heard of 劣幣驅逐良幣（Bad money drives out good)http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hant/ ... 0%E8%89%AF%E5%B9%A3
the mandarin spoken by the beijing residents is probably the most pleasant to ears
各花入各眼，各語入各耳
why cantonese ppl are the least popular group in places like universities and armies in the mainland.
Again, can you quote some scientific study.
racism is an easily abused word. i dont like snake but i have yet to hear speciesism.
Yes, 佛家有云：眾生平等。
why are there hardly any notable intellectuals or administrators of cantonese origin in chinese history?
How about 孫中山，葉劍英.........
While I agree Mandarin should be given a more important place in Hong Kong education for the sake of that this being the national language, your comments of phyical appearance and IQ of Cantonese make me sick!
[ 本帖最後由 friendlyguy 於 11-1-24 12:26 編輯 ]
作者: wicked 時間: 11-1-25 17:32
making a friendly guy sick -- that must be potently wicked enough, unless the friendly guy simply too vulnerable if not of a twisted psyche? i fancied “wicked” after encountering a “Mighty” who turned out more like miserable.
no need to take my comment so personally. the world is made up of differences which we make judgement upon. there are always differences between different social groups. by addressing differences we come to know our origin and our path, which might help us become more openminded for a bigger picture. i didnt say all cantonese ppl are ugly nor northern chinese all good looking. its like a general comparison between spectrums, if we take the average, an northern chinese is easily more attractive than an average cantonese. maybe politically incorrect to say but unfortunately true.
judging by ur understanding of evolution, we are hardly on a close level for a meaningful discussion. no intention to belittle ur ability but maybe more to do the gap between our exposures. but then i dont owe anyone an education. there is more than u want to know about evolution on the internet.
There are two parts making who we are: gene(innate) and exposure (natural enviroment:food and weather, social enviroment: people). gene determines one’s potential and exposure affects to what extent we can reach our potential. gene respresents the survival wisdom crystalized from the accumulated exposures our ancestors had over the course of evolution(which is of billions of years).This is also why Confusius said “bu2 xiao4 you3 san3, wu2 hou4 wei2 da4”. if u cant pass on ur gene, u would waste all the efforts ur ancestors had made. being so important, how do we read gene? in a hip term, ur face and other physical features are like the facebook of ur gene and u read it by intuition. ur sense of aesthetics is an important part of intuition, which is why we can almost decisively tell one is more attractive than another even in a first encounter despite it might be much less easy to rationalize why so by logic. this is also why new born babies prefer to look at pictures of good looking ppl.
i always wondered why black ppl looks less appealing than white ppl ever since i first got to see their pictures when i was a kid. both black and white ppl are foreign to me so it shouldnt be cultural bias. as i got older, i also began to notice that southern chinese look less attractive than northern chinese. this “why” had always been in the back of my head.
its not easy to conduct scientific research on relations between IQ and look. but nonetheless there have been some data out. the most recent one is done by london school of economics based on a 6yr study over quite a big sample. the study suggested a positive co-relation between IQ and physical attractiveness. news about it is available on internet. it was actually on the hk local newspaper last week.
this is a website showing IQ by country worldwide.
http://www.worldmaps.co.uk/free-world-maps
i m amused by some of the figures (eg australia) but nonetheless there is a geographical pattern esp with respect to north-southwards. u can make ur own judegment. with that pattern in mind, guangdong and hainan’s low IQ ranking (both below 100 if i dont recall it wrong) in china makes perfect sense to me. i came across the ranking data on a mainland forum last year but havent been able to find it again. but then for those with a victimised mentality, if its easier for u to take my words as anti-cantonese fabrication, suit urself.
education in finland is said to be superb but if u put some black africans there for upbringing and schooling, more likely than not, their outcome will still be on the low end of the spectrum no matter how hard they try. i guess thats the same reason for guangdong being the 2nd most educated province yet still with a low IQ ranking.
another fact is, genetically cantonese are more related to vienamese than those along and above the changjiang river, which is why cantonese look more like vienamese than northern chinese.
as with my own experience, if i run into a tall, fair toned and refined looking chinese in hk, more likely than not, he or she is NOT of cantonese origin.
equality is an ideal but there is always a gap between reality and ideal. reality does bite.
btw, i dont consider Dr Sun Yat Sen a great leader. he was made the 1st president out of political convenience. he is an empty talker, not well regarded by many who had once worked closely with him. more less politically biased facts have been out. i dont find him honourable at all. china might have done better this last 100yrs without him messing up china’s fate. simply becoz ppl like him had such an impact on china, he should be discussed objectively or even critically rather than to be glorified.
i would rather u have quoted Liang Qi-chao. he is talented, well read and far more respectable both as an intellectual and as a person. he was one of the few who were against Sun Yat Sun’s revolutionary move. he believed that true change to a nation can only be brought by the enlightenment of mind rather than by blood and force.
作者: wicked 時間: 11-1-25 17:38
i m no expert on linguistics either. its not easy to explain in terms of aesthetics. to avoid bias, try listening to foreign langauges spoken in the tropical and those in the north, see if u could notice a pattern in terms of pleasantness to ears.
作者: wicked 時間: 11-1-25 17:41
i tend to believe ideas and forms and behaviours which are more in line with our aesthetic sense are more efficient.
作者: wicked 時間: 11-1-25 17:45
becoz the rest of the chinese communities have adopted mandarin, HK should do otherwise to stand out. by the same token, hk should opt for a different foreign language instead of english coz simply too many out there are learning english.
language is not primarily for communication’s sake but more for posing as a signiture.
作者: annie40 時間: 11-1-25 17:54 標題: 回復 11# wicked 的帖子
this is a website showing IQ by country worldwide.
http://www.worldmaps.co.uk/free-world-maps
这个research website有点无聊 ,种族歧视, 不必太认真.
作者: wicked 時間: 11-1-25 18:14
another quick jump to conclusion. racism is easily associated whenever the discussion concerns racial diferences.
anthropology was neglected or even suppressed for some years after 2nd world war coz the bad experiences of holocaust and eugenics. but with the world getting more mobile, we are open to more oppotunities to encounter differences and this actually has helped ppl become more self-aware and acceptive of facts. ppl's attitude towards racial differences is also less radical than before. anthropology is now a popular subject, esp together with the devolopment of molecular biology and psychology.
作者: wicked 時間: 11-1-25 18:19
in the 2000yrs of china as a unified country, the centre of governance was never made below the changjiang river, and there has been little(if not none) history about southerners from below changjiang river ruling over the north. but central china was ruled by northen tribes from mongol and manchu for a significant period of time in the last 1000yrs. i guess that says a lot.
作者: wicked 時間: 11-1-25 18:24
guangzhou was made an open port for trade with west and hong kong given to the british about 150yrs ago after china losing the opium war. this connection to the west resulted in the first big wave of chinese emmigration to the west from guangdong and consequently brought new ideas and progressive influences to the cantonese area. a significant percentage of revolutionists at turn of last century were of cantonese background. however, despite cantonese played a big part in the beginning of the revolutions to overthrow the manchu empire, their roles in the later governance of the country were almost ignorable. governance requires more sophisticated and long term planning than revolutions.
作者: wong616 時間: 11-1-26 15:04
本地學校應該用英文作為教學語言。甚至可以嘗試用英文教中文及普通話。
作者: wicked 時間: 11-1-26 17:49
its intriguing to notice that ppl in hk embrace english with so much enthusiasm, yet another equally (if not more) pleasant and popular language closer to their own mother tongue has been treated with much despise and even hostility. perhaps its to do with the less favoured political system and the backwardness in the mainland. understandable in a way but language comes and goes in history. by clinging to an obviously less efficient and less popular language will only do more harm to hk than good.
作者: wicked 時間: 11-1-26 18:08
guangzhou has a township history over 2000yrs. despite being the 3rd largest city in china and blessed with the more progressive western influence much earlier than other big cities, the tertiary education in guangzhou still remains 3rd rated at best. bright students and top schoolars are less than willing to come for study and work there despite the money prospect might be more attractive. i guess that says a lot about the regard for cantoense culture.
its indisputable that cantonese culture and the dialect is of littel significance in hk's rise. put the other factors(e.g. legal and administrative system and english literacy from the colonial history) to other chinese coastal cities, more likely than not, they could have done even better. hk’s take-off happened in 1960s thanks to the influx of the non-cantonese immigrants in the 50s. and cantonese was only made official in 1970s -- and i wonder why it wasnt mandarin. the british gentlmen are wellknown for their cultural insignt (and crookedness) and they must know the cons and pros of mandarin and cantonese well. only a fool would believe its to do with their respect for cantonese culture.
in its 150yrs short history, hk has benefited a lot from both china’s misfortune and take-off. there seems to be a sense of exclusiveness to hk’s success bcoz of that. perhaps that explains the mentality of some hk ppl into thinking that clinging to cantonese is a way to further highlight hk’s uniqueness from the rest of china. if such mentality also plays a part in hk’s policy making, hk’s doom day is counting close even faster.
[ 本帖最後由 wicked 於 11-1-26 18:16 編輯 ]
作者: eviepa 時間: 11-1-26 21:20
小學時老師聽說過，戰後的一段時間裡，香港廣泛地採用普通話教學，但問題是，因為語言障礙，學生回家後得不到家長的支援，所以紛紛改用廣東話教學。
幾十年前，一個初中生已被稱為知識分子，讓新一代識字已是最高理想。在當時環境，採用普通話教學，利少弊多，採用廣東話教學可解燃眉之急。但幾十年前被政府認為識字就是一切的孩子 — 就是你和我 — 現在已經長大成人，大概是時候檢討普教中的問題了。
作者: eviepa 時間: 11-1-26 21:21
Wicked - 很欣賞你的分析。
作者: wicked 時間: 11-1-27 17:56
appreciating ur feedback and support too. good to know not everyone takes me negatively despite of my negative sentiment against cantonese. actually i dont mind being taken as a racist. i think racism is as natural as judging ppl based on look and i believe in “look is more than skin deep”. as by someone’s words:”racism is inherent, undeconstructable but can be controlled”. racism taxes on life so shouldnt be encouraged. exposure and open discussion help reduce racism. that said, i dont mind pricking those sanctimonious narrow mindsets who cant wait to finger point as if they were at a moral higher ground.
i learned about hk’s history mostly thru media. i see ur point and good sense there. a relative of mine was a teacher before. she said some posh private primary schools did teach chinese in mandarin at her time(80s).
i wonder if the “red riot” in late 60s might have played a part in the goverment’s later decision to make cantonese official instead of mandarin, as a way or statement to curb hk’s connection with the red china.
hk has adopted the 3-3-4 system as in china but there seems hardly any talking about changing the teaching medium to mandarin. i tend to think its more to do with attitude and will than execution difficulty.
作者: uncleedward 時間: 11-1-28 16:18 標題: 回覆 wicked 的帖子
Dear wicked
I had read your blog at BK before I started to write this and I have to say I like most of the things you wrote there. I liked particularly the joke about the wife’s name as “Always Right”
同是喜歡錢鍾書，而及烏亦喜愛楊絳的文字。見到你引錢的文字：「偏見可以說是思想的放假。它不是沒有思想的人的家常日用，而是有思想的人的星期日娛樂。」What you wrote here have mostly been said in your blog. It seems that you are still clinging to these ideas. Apparently you have allowed your serious thinking too long a holiday.
I’m not interested in discussing your opinions as I do think everyone is allowed his/her own biases no matter how weird or how wicked they may seem. However, I am slightly surprised a seemingly well educated person like you would allow his/her opinions to be based on clearly incorrect facts, and unfortunately for so long. I sincerely suggest you pick up some newly published physical or cultural anthropology (人類學) books. (The translation is for the benefit of some other readers who would prefer me to write in Chinese. But clearly to write all of the following in Chinese is beyond the time constraint imposed on me in view of my Chinese input speed. )
Thanks to modern genetic tools available to us, anthropologists can now tell us for certain that modern humans, i.e. all of us living on this planet, be it Europeans, Chinese, Australians, originated in East Africa about 200,000 years ago. There were some Chinese anthropologists in favor of regional evolution theory 多地區連續進化說 holding a different view but it has more or less died down after modern genetic science has provided conclusive proofs otherwise. All Chinese people including you and me are descendants of a black lady living in East Africa 200,000 years ago. The modern Chinese’s (about 50,000 years ago) ancestors were also Caucasians 高加索人 whose ancestors were descendants coming out from East Africa. It is therefore pointless to say who, whether northern Chinese or southern Chinese, are “more evolved”. It is like talking which of the two brothers, separated at birth, one brought up in Kowloon and one brought up on Hong Kong island, is more evolved 20 years later, even we pretend to know what you mean by “more evolved”.
Our ancestors came out of Africa where there is more sunlight. Therefore we were black then. As we left Africa, moving over to Europe and Asia where there is less sunlight, our skin colour became lighter. It was just a matter of gradual evolution through natural selection (pigmented skin against damaging UV rays and vitamin D hypothesis).
There are two rules in anthropology on the relationship between body size, body proportions, and climate: Bergmann’s rule and Allen’s rule.
Bergman’s rule: Mammals’ body size tends to be greater in populations that live in cooler climates because a smaller surface area to mass ratio allows for better heat retention.
Northern Chinese are therefore bigger than their southern brothers in general. It is only a matter of different evolutionary adaptation. It does not mean they are more evolved at all.
Allen’s rule: Longer appendages (手長脚長), with increased surface area relative to mass, are more adaptive in warmer climate for better heat loss. That explains why although Vietnamese girls are short physically, very often we still use骨內勻稱，身材窈窕to describe their body shape.
As to Chinese speaking Putonghua, it is nothing to do with evolution. If you bother to google it, you will find that Putonghua was actually brought in by Mongolians in Yuan Dynasty only about 800 years ago. 有一說普通話的引入伴随着漢人大量遭殺剹的血淚歷史，中古漢語的入聲字亦在北方從此消失。How can it be said that Putonghua is a more evolved language then? As to whether Cantonese or Putonghua sounds better to ears, I used to think your way when I was young, particularly after a two-month trip around China with my wife in our younger days. Our last stop was Guangzhou and I even refused to speak Cantonese there. I have a certain flair for language. Although I was born in Hong Kong, I can pass as a northerner if only 閑話家常 is involved. But my dislike for Cantonese then was completely due to the unique phenomena that a lot of people in Guangzhou then had this particular habit of including a certain mention of sexual organs in every single sentence. It was a completely cultural thing. A lot of people prefer Taiwanese 國語 to Putonghua as it sounds a lot softer. Both上海人 and 蘇州人喜歡吵架. It will be unusual to spend a day in the streets of Shanghai without hearing some people quarreling. I can assure you it sounds irritating to ears, but even Shanghai people would admit it is somehow an enjoyable thing to see two Suzhou girls quarrel (I did witness a couple of times myself. Although I wouldn’t say it is music to ears, it definitely sounds a lot more bearable than Shanghainese) . French also sounds better than English and definitely better than German. Try to say it to the local man sitting next to you in a pub in London or Heidelberg: the French are “more evolved” (no matter what you mean by that for that matter) than the English and the German. I don’t think you need me to remind you that German people normally are much bigger than us in size and they are not particularly known for their sense of humor. You will probably find the German would suddenly become not so civilized, or become “less evolved” in your terms, even in an idyllic place like Heidelberg. If you try to determine which language is more evolved based on certain aesthetic criteria, you will see a lot of contradicting examples flying in your face.
One thing I want to remind you is that most Chinese leaders establishing the new China are southern Chinese(to the south of the Yangtze), although Cantonese people may think otherwise.
It is always tempting in daily discussion to have the conclusion first and gather whatever examples one thinks fit to support the conclusion. But scientific methodology should be called for if we really want a serious discussion of a sensitive topic like this.
S Washburn, a well-known physical anthropologist at Berkeley, said in 1963: “Races are the products of the past. They are relics of times and conditions which have long ceased to exist. Racism is equally a relic supported by no phase of modern science. We may not know how to interpret the form of the Mongoloid face, or why Rh is of high incidence in Africa, but we do know the benefits of education and of economic progress. We know that the roots of happiness lie in the biology of the whole species and that the potential of the species can only be realized in a culture, in a social system. It is knowledge and the social system which give life or take it away, and in so doing change the gene frequencies and continue the million-year-old interaction of culture and biology.” Although this statement was written more than half a century ago, it is still fresh and valid today.
When it comes to the even more sensitive topic of intelligence, I have to say it remains a controversy inside and outside the scientific world whether population affinity and intelligence are associated. Both genetic and environmental factors contribute to intelligence. What can be said though, is that IQ scores and intelligence aren’t the same thing. IQ scores can also change over one’s lifetime and IQ scores of different populations overlap. The differences in average IQ scores that exist between different groups are close to impossible to interpret and it is impossible to determine what proportion of the variation in test scores is due to biological factors. There is no convincing evidence whatsoever that populations vary with regard to cognitive abilities, regardless of what some popular books (instead of academic ones) may suggest. Unfortunately, racist attitudes towards intelligence continue to exist, despite the complete lack of evidence of mental inferiority of some populations and mental superiority of others. We also know individual abilities result from complex interactions with environmental factors. One important factor is learning or education.
昨天下午外出正值放學時間，乘的巴士很擠。中途有人下車，在旁站立已久的一個背着大書包，一手提着環保袋的 SSGC 女孩轉身正準備坐下時，瞥見身後站立的一位身體頗健壯的婆婆，就馬上說：「婆婆，你坐呀！」其他乘客這麽久都沒有讓位，而這個女孩子讓了位，我想不會是因為其他人是廣東人而這女孩子不是(我看她顴骨高高的，應該也是廣東人) ，it is education. And I think education matters much much more than any other genetic factors you may find in most things in our daily life.
我大概不會再回帖，除非你發覺我說的人類學知識有錯誤。至於個人見解，不辯也罷。不諱言我也是一個滿腦子偏見的人, in a liberal society, we are all allowed our own biases。
Finally, just in case you wonder, I am not a Cantonese myself although my wife is. I didn’t read anthropology at university either.
[ 本帖最後由 uncleedward 於 11-1-28 20:28 編輯 ]
作者: annie40 時間: 11-1-28 17:31 標題: 回復 25# uncleedward 的帖子
Uncle,
我不但无比你的人类学大作闷瓜, 仲边看边大笑, 已copy一份在个人档案中, 无事做 (经常是此状态) 重看笑餐饱.
我想你还要繼續努力, 直到闷瓜我地为止. (中英也欢迎)
怪不得你爱妻是醋良子. 让她上BK, 欣赏你的大作, 对健康有益.
annie
仲未揾到你的pm 关于跑鞋size, 是我藉口吗?
作者: wicked 時間: 11-1-28 18:30
hi Uncle Edward
wow. i m truly flattered -- no sarcasm here. i was expecting this thread to have ended before ur post.
good to know u r not cantonese, in one way i could assume less biased opinions there and less worry for offending u, and in another as a validation for my long held belief: non-cantonese chinese's mindsets are more refined and sophisticated . hope u dont mind. i do know generalization does not necessarily apply to individual case.
thank you very much for ur very well informed feedback. truly appreciating it. but i think i will need a bit more time to digest all of it esp the rather academic bit and hopefully can come back with some meaningful arguments. i look forward to being enlightened more so hope this wont be ur last post.
i dont have a background in anthropology either, just having the impression its a subject tracking man's history and a lot of findings are based on comparing racial differences and differeces between man and the great apes.
as mentioned in my previous post, there are two parts making who we are: gene and exposure. i think gene is more of a product of nature's selection process whereas exposure more of man's effort. i dont think man can ever win over nature. that is why i value the quality of gene pool more than anything else.
i think as long as man has to make judgement based on differences and different social groups segregated by bordres, there will always be racism. we are all shaped by our expereicens and social expericiences shape our empathy, the ability to think from others perspective. empathy is the basis to moral standard and values , so ultimately the social system. different social groups have different empathy levels(thus different social systems), which gives rise to different stereotypings. stereotyping is where racism stems from. is stereoptyping biased? surely yes; is it totally wrong? no.
take the example of stereoptyping between hk ppl and mainlanders. becoz of hk’s prosperity, ppl in hk has long enjoyed a sense of betterment over the less fortunate mainlanders, as apparent from the negatively stereotyped mainlanders often portrayed in hk media( which might have played a part in hk ppl’s attitude towards mandarin). but mainlanders also have their treat back. here is a brief summary of what i have come across on internet: loud, rude and uncultured (even if well-educated), obsessed with food and money, less attractive physically, less interesting, less capable of sophisticated taste and intellectual depth; their less developed sense of honour makes them less trustworthy and easily resort to short-cut behaviours such as cheat, abuse and vulgarity for short term gain. their sense of humour is simplistic, often vulgar and witless. some of the attributes are actually from foreigners who have had experiences with both cantonese ppl and northern chinese. offensive may it be, its not all wrong based on my own experiences here. one particular cantonese respondent in this thread seems to fit some of the descriptions quite well. i should thank her for being so helpful to validate my points so well too. huan1 ying2 dui4 huao4 ru4 zuo4.
more evolved means more refined, ie having survived thru a more stringent selection process, resulting in more changes in the genes as comparing to the origin. complacence in the tropical becoz of warm weather slows down the evolution process.
more pleasant pronouciation is the result of a more energy efficient sound producing path. do u watch 6 billions others? comparing the facial muscle involvement between a black and a white's talking.
i will stop here for now. will go bak to my blog for a review first. dont quite remember what i put down there. havent been here for a long time.
i might have clinged to some ideas but evolution is an on going thing for me just like every netizen.
till next time
作者: eviepa 時間: 11-1-29 01:40
我都話欣賞wicked的言論啦，睇下，吸引到Uncle又出來講一大段勒。在BK，很少看見有這些學術味道那麼重的討論，我真的目不暇給。第一回合，wicked先出招，Uncle還一重拳，wicked要review一下自己的blog，肯定再出招。擔定凳仔睇戲。
對種族歧視，我有以下看法：
各個種族都有自己的「特性」，而此等特性會影響到做各種task的能力。這不涉及種族歧視。
在美國，黑人的肌肉密度高，所以在需要大力量的運動比白人有較強的競爭能力，比如說，歷屆NBA中的MPV，幾乎都是「黑猛猛」的。但亦因為肌肉密度高，在水中較難浮起，所以美國泳隊是「白雪雪」的。
各民族有各自的生理特徵，如果各民族的IQ都大致相近，我反而覺得奇怪。
去年曾經看過一個「洋鬼子」對各大民族做IQ的比較。詳細記不清楚，但歐洲最蠢的民族是經濟最發達的德國人，全世界最聰明的是東北亞人（中國東北、韓國、日本）。這個研究引來很多批評，認為是種族歧視。
好可能就是wicked所講的，由於希特拉用偽科學，去將自己的侵略、屠殺合理化，之後，此題目就是大家的禁忌，碰不得。但，如果研究的方法合理，得出來的結論真是民族間有差異，是否就因為政治不正確而不應發表呢？是否要做到沒有差異才可以發表？
除了生理結構問題外，文化亦會導致競爭力的強弱：
回教徒不怎樣重視人世的生活，最重視上天堂。在戰場上，他們視死如生。在十字軍的年代，軍隊用刀去對砍，白人就很難敵得過他們，所以儘管不斷組織十字軍，基督徒都是節節敗退，回教可能是當時最有競爭力的文化。直到文藝復興時代，歐洲科技大踴進，回教徒怎樣強捍也敵不過洋槍大炮。此時，競爭力的天平又去了白人那裡。
在二十世紀初，東亞跟中東都是白人掠奪的對像。到二十世紀後半部，東亞人漸漸站起來。但反觀中東回教徒最重視的，是死後的生活，oil dollar大部分不是用作建設經濟。東亞人又有較高的競爭力。
或許會有一日，社會的演變令回教徒重拾競爭力。
在BK這種公眾平台，主張之中有大量論據支持，是可貴的。我不一定同意wicked的論點，但我欣賞他的方法。
wicked加油！
Uncle加油！
eviepa
作者: uncleedward 時間: 11-1-29 15:27
原帖由 wicked 於 11-1-28 18:30 發表
hi Uncle Edward
wow. i m truly flattered -- no sarcasm here. i was expecting this thread to have ended before ur post.
good to know u r not cantonese, in one way i could assume less biased opinions ...
Dear wicked
As I said I really cannot have an extended discussion with you right now; however, I forgot to mention a couple of things:
1. I said I'm not a Cantonese. But I could have come from further south, like Hainan Island or Vietnam, either of which is at an even lower level in your hierarchy. Your mindset is really not scientific enough.
2. As you could be new here, you probably don't know offending me is a trivial matter not worth mentioning, but offending the people around me and in particular my wife, is a serious crime almost calling for the death penalty, 因為你唔死就到我死。作為一個典型小男人，為朋友兩脅插刀多數唔駛預我，但為女人(呢個咋吓)插朋友兩脅幾刀就分分鐘做得出。
3. Treat the people here nicely; don't antagonize us with words you may not really mean. Learn from eviepa. He's been preaching patiently his gospel here for years. Although we may not all have turned into his disciples, we have, however, all become his friends. (eviepa, 咪得戚，我重未嬲完你。叫你頂兩嘴你就掉轉頭讚兩嘴。)
As I said elsewhere, I am about to go on an extended holiday with my wife and thus have to be away for some time. Like you said,
until next time.
[ 本帖最後由 uncleedward 於 11-1-29 15:43 編輯 ]
作者: uncleedward 時間: 11-1-30 00:23
While I have nothing to add myself, I happen to find what my elder daughter wrote in one of her homework assisngments two years ago when she was doing grade 12 in the US. It is interesting to see the change in the attitude of the next generation twoards the racial issue, particularly with Obama being elected as the first black President in the US as the background. Don't waste time criticising the essay. It is hardly scientific at all; I can easily point out the weaknesses myself. It was a draft she sent to me for discussion but I already forgot what I said to her afterwards:
===============================
2/2/2009
Are Asians Really Smarter?
Numerous statistics indicate that students from Asian countries constantly outscore their counterparts from western countries in various international academic and intelligence tests. Several international studies also showed that Asian students have higher abilities in mathematics and science. Why would there be such a difference? Are Asians really more intelligent? This can be an interesting yet controversial question. Being an Asian student, I would love to think that we are smarter than others. However, my answer to the question would be negative. I believe all races have more or less the same level of intelligence. So, if Asians are not genetically any smarter than other races, why are they academically more successful? For me, it’s the Asian culture and environment which make the difference.
To begin with, Asian families stress on the importance of education above everything else. They believe academic excellence is the only way to success. Parents often keep a close eye on their children’s learning progress at school. Only by making sure their children are working hard and getting straight As, Asian parents would then feel their responsibilities have been discharged. Homework and grades always come first before sports and music. Therefore, most students in Asian countries primarily focus on schoolwork and public examinations. While parents fear that they can’t help their kids achieve their best, children are also afraid that they might disappoint their parents. They usually work hard trying to meet their parents’ expectations. Consequentially, diligent Asian students tend to do better academically.
Moreover, Asian students are generally more disciplined. Schools have stricter rules and better orders. Teachers have more authority and students have greater respect for them. Students are taught to follow word for word what the teachers say. As a result, students learn in an orderly and efficient environment. There may also be vices in this kind of learning as students often just empty their brains and absorb what are taught. They can memorize information without understanding what it means. It is not common for students to ask questions. While Asian students may not be as creative as others, they are definitely more knowledgeable. When it comes to tests and examinations, it is always how much you know that counts.
Asian students are undoubtedly better test-takers. Students in Asian countries often undergo much keener competitions for education; striving to get into top universities, high schools, or even elementary schools. As a consequence, Asians are trained to take various tests and public exams from a very early age. In order to deal with all the rigorous homework and tests, it is not uncommon for them to take tutorial lessons after school. This is especially popular among East Asian countries like China, Taiwan, Japan and South Korea. A girl from South Korea once told me that they had tutorial classes until two o’clock in the morning. This is certainly unthinkable in other countries. Practice makes perfect; it not surprising to find Asian students performing better in the international academic tests after all.
As you can see from the above points, Asian students do not have to be smarter to attain better academic results. They just work harder. Academic success depends more on how one is raised by his/her parents and the learning environment than the innate intelligence of the students. Competition can also push one to work harder and achieve higher. The achievements of Asian students prove that diligence is the key to success. If students in other countries work equally hard, Asian students would not be predominating in tests and exams as they are seemingly doing.
Regardless of where they come from, students of different races will have equal chances to excel – if they really want to do it.
[ 本帖最後由 uncleedward 於 11-1-30 00:52 編輯 ]
作者: friendlyguy 時間: 11-1-30 05:18 標題: 回復 28# eviepa 的帖子
Eviepa,
In contrast to you, I don’t see Wicked ‘s method is good.
See through all his posts, the reasons why Hong Kong should adopt PTH as teaching medium is because:
1. PTH is a more evolved and esthetic pleasing language
2. Cantonese culture is inferior to the Northern Chinese culture
3. Cantonese people is less esthetical pleasing
4. Cantonese people’s gene pool is inferior so that Cantonese’s IQ is among the lowest in China
1, 2.and 3 are just subjective opinions, that means they can’t be measured objectively. With regard to 4., Uncleedward has already discuss the downfall of IQ measurement. I do agree that there should be difference in intellectual level between different races. However, if you want to convince me that one race is more intelligent that the other, please show me a real science report with methodology, sampling method, what statistical test has been done, how and why you come to that conclusion. Even where the funding of that particular study came from will influence the result. Not just say that I heard last year a symposium in China said so, but I can’t find the material, or it has been reported in a newspaper. The only evidence he show us in his posts is a web site http://www.worldmaps.co.uk/free-world-maps which show average IQ by country. This map didn’t say how it come to these figures. It also not say what average parameter is using (mean, median or mode), what is the standard derivation, and is there a significant difference between countries. More importantly, this map make a serious mistake: it means to show different country ‘s IQ level, however, Hainan is not a country. This map also do not show separate IQ level of different provinces in China. But, Wicked use it to deduced that IQ level of Cantonese is less than 100 which is lower than people in Northern China. Since these deduction is groundless, his conclusion that Cantonese only suitable for low skill work and why there are hardly any notable intellectuals or administrators of cantonese origin in chinese history cannot stand. You may think I am very harsh, but since this is a very controversial subject, the standard should set a bit higher.
Even if Cantonese people’s IQ level is really lower, Cantonese cultural is inferior, and Cantonese language is less aesthetically pleasing, are these reasons to shift Hong Kong’ teaching medium to PTH? Let say, we do adopt PTH as teaching medium, will Cantonese culture improve? May be, If you think Cantonese culture is really inferior. Will Cantonese IQ level improve? May be, we all know IQ can be trained. Will Cantonese gene pool improve? Definitely no. I think we all know that to improve gene pool, mutation or inter-breed is needed. Mutation is a chance process and most of it changes to worse side instead of better and most of it is recessive. Vast majority of it will die down very soon. Education is definitely not a factor for mutation. Making our future generations subject to X-ray radiation may be more efficient! I also don’t see education has any relationship with inter-breeding of one lower IQ group with a higher IQ one!
Doing a scientific study is one thing. Policy making is the other. If we base on this and change the medium teaching medium to PTH, I can see that in a generation later, someone still say that Cantonese is only suitable for low skill work, no important notable intellectual and administrator. Taking an extreme, someone may suggest moving all Cantonese northward and make them subject to the same environment where their northern brothers live and let them become more “evolve”. Someone may even says evolution take millions years. It is too slow. In order to improve the gene pool of Chinese as a whole, we better eradicate them!
You may think I am 杞人憂天, but I see it is a real danger and it is a danger that we human being cannot risk.
I have to stress that I agree PTH should have a more important role in Hong Kong’s eduation for the sake of PTH being the National language of China and all other reasons except racial difference (if you think Cantonese is another race.).
Regards,
Friendlyguy
[ 本帖最後由 friendlyguy 於 11-1-30 08:43 編輯 ]
作者: eviepa 時間: 11-1-30 15:27
Friendlyguy,
作為一個廣東人，我當然希望wicked的理論最後被人擊倒。
wicked所講的理論，是一家之見，所引用支持的證據，是無千無萬的證據之中的其中一些證據，大家都有權說他是一偏之見。不過我覺得wicked已經盡了一個網民的責任，有觀點，有大量證據支持。我想，絕大部分網友，都將BK作為一個茶餘飯後吹水的平台。大家都不是學者，不能將發文的要提升到極之嚴謹的的標準。
wicked所播的是種，是大家從這點開始的討論點，對此我是歡迎的，不管我對此等觀點同不同意。
wicked的觀點，肯定有大量網友不同意，希望大家盡施渾身解數，憑堅實的論據，理性地討論。
Friendlyguy, 加油！
eviepa
作者: kaykaychow 時間: 11-2-1 13:57
原本不打算在這裡再出現，為了捍衛廣東話， 我想我要盡一下責任， 以下是陳雲的文章， 陳雲是中文大學的英文系碩士，德國 哥廷根大學的博士。做過藝術發展局的研究總監，在何志平局長任內當過民政事務局研究總監：
http://realforum.zkiz.com/thread.php?tid=6535
http://hk.news.yahoo.com/supplement/column/article.html?aid=id-1184
http://hk.news.yahoo.com/supplement/column/article.html?aid=id-1200
http://hk.news.yahoo.com/supplement/column/article.html?aid=id-1220
http://hk.news.yahoo.com/supplement/column/article.html?aid=id-1237
http://hk.news.yahoo.com/supplement/column/article.html?aid=id-1254
http://hk.news.yahoo.com/supplement/column/article.html?aid=id-1288
作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-6 12:21
hi eviepa
sorry for late response. “need a bit more time” becomes a long halt.
还道您是位妈妈，原来也是爷们儿，还好起哄看打架。儒雅如我，您看怕得失望了。再次谢谢您的鼓励和仗义. 可抬举我受不起，不小心摔着，那能好受？更乐意听您的不同意见，所谓进步源于距离。您可能是位mr nice,我倒不太在意情面，但自以为也算明理，不会无故失礼于人, 对不识趣的只是礼尚往来而已。
most of my opinions are based on my own observations and bits and pieces from media. i was trained in the life science field which might have helped pave the way but i dont see the inevitable connection in between. 在学者眼里，我的看法大有可能被认为是歪论. actually i have had arguments with ppl who are more knowledgeable in the relevant fields yet i m still to be convinced that i m wrong.
civilization starts from social interaction and is a process of refinement and sophistication which is guided by aesthetics. the meaning behind aesthetics is energy efficiency. the more stringent the selection process, the more energy efficient the outcome, which is also more in line with our sense of aesthetics. aesthetics is empathy related. a more developed empathy level supports a more advanced social system, the culture of which is more appreciated aesthetically thus more affluent. take the example of democracy, its a product of the more progressive western culture. the whole world is trying to adopt democracy. the west had tried to impose the western democracy system in africa after the 2nd world war. result? complete failure. why? becoz the empathy level in the african society is not as well developed as in the west to support such a more evolved system. its like a tall guy’s shirt, it looks nice on the tall guy but if u r short, better wait till u grow into a similar height.
there has always been debates over racial differences esp in the respect of intelligence. there is probably not yet a concensus over the defination on intelligence. and science is yet to define wisdom. there are different IQ test tools and the results are not always consistent. ppl gifted with creativity and artistic talents could score well below average. i think 倪匡 mentioned in his newspaper column that his scored really low in these tests and one of his buddies scored sth like double of his but the gap hardly affects their friendship and interaction and no one can say he is dumb.
yes, IQ is affected by exposure and can change over time. so i wouldnt say IQ test is an accurate and reliable tool to measuare intelligence but maybe thats the best available at the moment. both neural science and psychology are new subjects of probably less than 100yrs old (judging by the fact that freud is called the father of psychology and he passed away less than 100yrs ago). for the average lot, their IQ scores probably can be considered as a crude reflection of their intelligence that is more valued in a civilized society. many corporate companies include aptitude tests in their recruitment process. these aptitude tests come from IQ test tools so IQ test must be of some good value there.
if all ppl are really equal, we would not see this universal advocacy for equality. just like if u already have rice everyday, u wouldnt aspire to having rice everyday. equality is an ideal of humanity, just like we aspire to ultimate wisdom and kindness. unfortunately reality is far from ideal, which is why we have religion as an integral part of all civilizations across the world, with equality and altruism highly regarded in all influential religious teachings.
america is a melting pot with a wide range of ethnicities. when we see the black neighbourhood contrasting so much to the white neighbourhood, is that really just the black ppl do not work as hard? so just their own fault to be blamed? i thought thats an easier(if not hypocritical) excuse than trying to find out why they look different physically and what such physical differences translate into in the context of civilization.
i like ur example about basketball player. i was going to talk about it even before u mentioned it. i will come back on that when i have a bit more time(hopefully not another long halt).
CNY is a wrong time to get involved in forum discussion. i had disfunctional experiences with forum discussion before which affected my real life. becoz of that i have learned not to let strangers on internet take priority of my schedule. i wont be able to cover every anti-argument raised in this thread but surely i will write again.
btw wish u and family good health and happiness in the new year.
till next time
作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-6 12:58
kaykaychow
thx for those links. i had a quick look at some. perhaps next time i will share more what i think.
but what is language for? when a tool is being designed, is the criteria of being user-friendly more important or being a mental challenge more of a priority?
with cantonese being so difficult to learn, is it sth worth bragging about or rather a big drawback of the language?
as far as i know, given the same exposure of chinese and english, children can actually pick up english faster becoz english is easier. my choice over english in typing is also bcoz input is much faster. the advantage of chinese over english is its stability so its good for storing info but definately not as competitive as english for info exchange.
cantonese nowadays is the result of southward shift of languages spoken in the central china merging with the native dialects spoken in the south (as according to one of ur links) and mandarin is the result of southward shift of northern dialects merging with central china dialects. do u see a pattern of southward influence from the north? why not the otherway round if the language in the south is so much more elegant as commented by this professor Chan? do u know what Su1 Dong1-po1 said about the native dialects spoken in the south at his time(~1000yr ago): cry like monkeys.
simply bcoz cantonese sounds closer to the langauge spoken in central china during the glorious tang dynasty would make cantonese a better option for communication nowadays?
roman empire was great too but do u also know Latin was already a dead lanague 500yrs ago? english is also a very newly evolved language if to compare with italian, french and german, but its the most spoken language nowadays all around the world. chinese comes 2nd but mainly just within china.
as i said before, language comes and goes. cantonese is one of the least evolved chinese dialects and the curtain is closing for its service, whether u like it or not.
作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-6 13:43
hi Uncle
thx for sharing ur daughter's writing. u must be so proud of her. critical thinking was probably not even in my vocabulary when i was her age.
i agree that drill exercises help boost asians performances in examinations and the sorts and asians are at best only equally smart as the white. the white has shown their dominance in almost all the continents they set foot upon (except east asia), to say they are dumber than us is reflection of poor judgement of our own.
but i do think racial difference plays a part in achievement. take the example of our two close neighbours -- japan and philiphine, both are island countries, have incorporated western democractic system, one exports sophisticated high-end electronics around the world and its culture wellrespected; one exports domestic helpers who might have an education background in international politics. anyone like to enlighten me why such a contrast?
yes we are all decendants of Lucy (as by the academic saying), but what have happened during the journey from Lucy to us in the course of 200,000yrs or even longer? whats the meaning of time if to say everyone is the same after all that long journey?
i dont need that much a scientific mind to exclude hainan and vietnam from the list. u wouldnt have made such a specific differenciation that u r not a cantonese while ur wife is, knowing that i group cantonese together with hainanese and vietnamese in the low end, unless u meant to trap me. but then i thought only wicked ppl like me would bother doing stuff like that.
i appreciate ur good intention but i did mean every word i said. i treat ppl with due respect. i have no intention to nurture enemy among strangers but if there is a pathetic attention seeker with a self-inflated big head and inferior-complexed mind asking for my attention, i m always happy to comply. u dont come across ppl like that often and i would usually pass them as an entertaining big mouth as long as they leave me alone.
perhaps till next time. hope u had a geat holiday and best wishes for the new year.
作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-6 14:13
friendly guy
no intention to offend u but just curious, are u always so scientific in ur everyday judgements? we actually make more judgements by intuition than reasoning and logic.
u name suggests a sense of easygoing-ness but i seem to sense more of tenseness in ur argument.
racial eradication happens by gene dilution. the less competitive lot are less likely to find a partner to pass on their genes.
genocide still happens often in africa though. u should know why by now i hope.
adopting a different language does not alter ur gene but can increase ur competitiveness in finding a partner of better gene and thus upgrade the gene of ur next generation. otherwise, why bothering learning english for?
yes most mutations are not good. revolultion is just like a mutation to a society. but some mutations can change the course of evolution to new light, this is how new species come about. the most recent academic research suggests one single mutation to a gene controlling the jaw muscle in a great ape (or man's ancient ancestor) resulting in man's different evolution path from our cousins, the great apes whose DNA is only of 1% difference from ours. apes still live in the jungle and we live in civilized cities and even reach out of the planet earth. our current average new borns amount about the same as the total population of great apes. if 1% difference can actually translate into that much difference, why cant a 0.000001%, for example, difference between the black and the white attribute to the contrast between the black neigbourhood and white neighbourhood? is it such a difficult logic?
happy new year to u too.
作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-7 18:37
its more than often i have heard ppl pointing out that most of the NBA players are black whereas most of the coaches are white. different reasons have been suggested. the one i tend to agree more is bcoz the blacks are more monkey like( that must guarantee another racist point in my account). it has been more of an intuitive guess till recently after i watched a documentary showing the amazing short-term memory of a chimpanzee (which is considered our closest cousin of all the great apes). a chimpanzee only needs less than 0.1 sec (sth like 0.065s if i dont recall it wrong) to remember the positions of all the numbers flashed randomly on the sceen and point out the position from 0 to 9 in sequence. man by comparison can only remember up to 5 at best(kids tend to do better than adults). the explanation is that such short-term, almost instinct-like ability is vital for a chimpanzee’s survival in its natural enviroment where it needs to spot its enemies or food quickly, whereas for man, such ability has been traded off during the long journey of evolution for long-term and sophisticated planning. very likely black ppl have retained a bit more of such short-term ability than the other races, allowing them an edge in sports like basketball which demands speed and quick reflexes more than strategies. even as slight as 0.001sec’s difference in spring-into-action can already make a difference in who gets the re-bound or who gets short-cut. blacks are well-known for their quick spring-into-action, giving them advantage in short-course races. by a similar logic, i guess those who jump into conclusion quick is also becoz they are more monkey like but thats not necessarily a disadvantage depending on the situation.
[ 本帖最後由 wicked 於 11-2-11 18:24 編輯 ]
作者: friendlyguy 時間: 11-2-7 22:51 標題: 回復 37# wicked 的帖子
Wicked,
Yes, my job requires me doing most of the things on a scientific basis. I agree that we do most things based on intuition in everyday life. However, when it comes to your posts, you are using seemingly scientific arguments to support your proposal of replacing Cantonese with PTH and it seems that there is obvious bias in your intuition. I also think this is a big issue and very controversial subject (both PTH is superior to Cantonese and Cantonese people is less “evolved” and less intelligent), therefore I think the standard should be set a bit higher. I think I have been deeply influenced by my university teachers that they will ask for scientific reference if someone says something they didn’t understand, didn’t heard of or didn’t agree. I think this is a right thing to do, since a very meaningful discussion can be started if there is really a scientific basis, or to stop someone boasting around if otherwise.
Policymaking is a big deal to all the people in the society. I think you won’t like the policy makers to do things just on intuition without any scientific basis. Right?
Can you give an example that a modern human race (Homo sapiens sapiens) is eradicated by gene dilution alone in human history? I don’t quite understand what you say. Even if a race is eradicated by natural selection alone without any human intervention (e.g. a race may be eradicated by a particular disease if they all lack genes for immunity to it.), I don’t think that there is any problem although it is a tragedy. Yes, genocide still happens in some part of Africa. Basically different races are fighting for the complete control of the resources (land, wealth, food and water). Can you tell me the relevance with the current discussion about adopting PTH in Hong Kong? I hope you are not proposing eradicating Cantonese genes. Right?
Not to offend, you have a funny idea of why we learn English. I showed it to my wife and my young kid, they both laughed to death! We all don’t understand why knowing English can find a partner with better genes. Since you know English, did you find your right one with better genes than those who don’t know English? How can you prove that? Mind you, some of the well-educated people in Hong Kong and China chose not to have offspring these days.
Of course many mutations change the course of evolution to new light
Otherwise why there are single cell animals evolved to complex animals. In my last post, I only pointed out that mutation is a very slow process. Judging by your last post, you have just watched a TV series “Human ape” produced by National Geographic, which was shown on ATV World Channel a few weeks ago. These series have been produced a few years ago. It says that when we compare the skull bone of Australopithecus boisei and Homo erectus, A. boisei has a prominent sagittal crest on it skull caused by attachment of jaw muscle (presumably the Temporalis, a masticatory muscle) while H. erectus don’t have it. They postulated that this muscle produced a huge masticatory force on the skull and constrained the development of the brain, and that is why H. erectus had larger brain case, more intelligent, and they evolved to use tool. However, there are some more points to note:
1. In genus Australopithecus, only aethopicus, robustus, boisei have these sagittal crests. There are still debates that whether they should be put in a separate Genus Paranthropus (it is the latest thinking, and since they are very different morphologically, I like to use Paranthropus to represent them).
2. The first species of Homo should be H. habilis (the ‘Handy man’ that were universally agreed who could use more sophisticated tool. I don’t know why they did not compare with this species) It is probably directly descended from Australopithecus garhi, Australopithecus africanus or Australopithecus afarensis (there is still debate about it) that all these three species do not have sagittal crest. Ancestor of Genus Homo is definitely not Paranthropus.
3. Australopithecus afarensis, the species that ‘Lucy’ belongs to, is not considered to be the first hominin nowadays. It is Australopithecus anamensis that appeared 4.2-3.9mya (million years ago) who is given the credit. It appeared earlier than ‘Lucy’.
4. Hominin walked out of the forest long before the appearance of Paranthropus.
5. The huge jaw muscle of Genus Paranthropus was probably due to their diet that they ate tough vegetation. Genus Homo were omnivores and they could find food more easily and their food was more nutritive so they could easily out compete Paranthropus. Some people even say that Homo preyed on Paranthropus. Paranthropus is only considered as a side branch of human evolution chain that represented an unsuccessful path of evolution parallel to that followed by our direct ancestor.
6. There was sexual dimorphism in Paranthropus. Females didn’t have that sagittal crest, so there was no muscle constraint on skull bone. However, there was no evidence of brain case of female Paranthropus being larger.
7. They compared the jaw muscle of modern apes to modern human and found that jaw muscle fibre of ape was larger than that of human. They then extrapolated this result to H. erectus and P. boisei and said that there might be a single mutation of gene that changed the size of jaw muscle fiber hence producing less force.
8. When we study modern apes, only gorillas have this sagittal crest. Chimpanzees do not have it, and their brain volume is still significantly smaller than modern human. Mind you, gorilla is herbivorous and Chimp is omnivorous.
9. By common sense, the magnitude of force exerted by a muscle depends on the size of the muscle as a whole, not to the size of muscle fiber. Therefore, in this experiment, the wrong parameter might have been chosen.
10. By modern research, we know that the size of muscle can be trained. That means, if a skinny person goes through vigorous training, his muscle volume can increase and their muscle fiber can increase in size (hypertrophy). Therefore, the difference in muscle size from Genus Paranthropus to Genus Homo may be due to diet change instead of mutation of gene controlling size of muscle.
11. Although the jaw muscle is larger in Paranthropus, the larger force did not necessarily constrain the skull. If you look at the anatomy of its skull, there is a sagittal suture between the left and right side of the skull. If there is growth potential of brain, the Skull can easily expand by bone growth in this suture.
12. Larger brain size species (Which is said to be more intelligent) did not necessarily out compete smaller brain one. One example is Homo neanderthalensis (another human species that co-existed with Homo sapiens for a period of time in Europe) that had a larger brain volume than Homo sapiens was out competed by our immediate ancestors.
The above may make other people bored to death. However, since you have a background in life science, I think you know what I mean. I haven’t read the scientific report about this. If I can have a copy of it, I may think otherwise. I am not here to boast my knowledge but just to show you that it could be dangerous to believe popular newspaper, TV shows (in this case, I think only 5 to 10min spent on it) so easily.
You have mentioned another experiment comparing short-term memory of Chimp to young human kid. I think their conclusion is correct. However, your extrapolation of good short-term memory to speed and reflexes really shock me. We don’t know for sure what make memory in our brain. It may be some chemical mediator or inter-connection between nerve fibers (Central nervous system). Speed and reflex are more of concern with the peripheral nervous system. They are totally different things. If your theory is correct, the NBA team can select their player by testing their short-term memory. Isn’t it weird? If you want to prove Black people is more ‘monkey like’ (‘Ape like’, is a more appropriate term. I think you know the difference between monkey and ape.), a small experiment can be easily conducted by slightly modifying the current one. You can just recruit a number of young kids, group them according to their skin colour and test their short-term memory. If the results show that black kids have a more powerful short-term memory, than you theory is right. You may also derive an experiment to compare the speed of reflex between Chimp and difference colour skinned people. But, to do that, you have to get the approval of the University Ethical committee first. Doing thing mostly by intuition without proper and careful reasoning is more of ‘monkey like’ in your own words.
I think nobody in this forum says everyone is equal genetically (you and your offspring also have genetic difference. This is what makes an individual an “individual”) or in any other aspect. However, is this small difference really makes one race more ‘evolved’ than the other? Mind you, we are the same sub-species Homo sapiens sapiens. Furthermore, we are all Chinese, no matter where we come from.
I really don’t think genetic and evolution have any relevant in the discussion of teaching medium. May be we just stop here (as you say, judging by my understanding of evolution, we are hardly on a close level for a meaningful discussion and you don’t owe any one an education) and go back to pros and cons of teaching in PTH and Cantonese. I have to confess that I know very little about the good and bad of both dialects. After reading kaykaychow’s post, I hope someone can give some more scholastic information about the beauty of PTH. May be Wicked can give some more information. BTW, can you tell me in what circumstances, 蘇東坡give his comment about the local Southern dialect? Where did it come from? I can’t find it in the Internet. I know you don’t owe anyone a lecture here, but I really want to learn more. One of my most respected Professors said,’ Once a student, always a student!’ I think it is very true!
Basically, I am an easygoing person. I am not planning to reply in this thread anymore after reading your reply. However, after reading Eviepa’s post, I think I have an obligation to tell others that there may be misleading information in some seemingly scientific arguments. Reminding someone is also a friendly gesture, isn’t it?
Ah! One more thing, who is the Father of psychology is in dispute. William James, Wilhelm Maximilian Wundt and Sigmund Freud have been given the credit. There was no one single person found psychology for sure. Freud is better to be considered as Father of psychoanalysis according to his work. I think you know what’s the difference between psychology and psychoanalysis. Right?
I think I will not answer your post if you insist on there is a relationship between teaching medium and genetics or evolution. I have been blamed by my wife that I have been 無聊 in discussing these things with a nonsensical person (I have to apologize for my wife to make such a rude comment.) In order to keep my family in harmony, I better stop here. 廣東話：怕老婆會發達！
Regards,
Friendlyguy
P.S. I did not study anthropology. All the information on human evolution came from my son who is still a primary student. Believe it or not, he is the expert in this field in my family. So, if you find anything wrong in this post, don’t blame me! 廣東話：有怪莫怪，細路仔唔識世界。
作者: iamfine 時間: 11-2-8 10:47
I just can't help wondering whether claiming superiority in a dialect (gosh, we are not even talking about a language) or seeking leadership in a pack is more chimpanzee like.
作者: cow 時間: 11-2-8 14:55
原帖由 friendlyguy 於 11-2-7 22:51 發表
BTW, can you tell me in what circumstances, 蘇東坡give his comment about the local Southern dialect? Where did it come from? I can’t find it in the Internet.
傳聞"蘇東坡被謫遷至惠州時感慨嶺南之人,而評價"面似猿,聲如鳥"
<日啖荔枝三百顆，不辭長作嶺南人>
作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-8 16:59
friendly guy,
wow! another super-scientific feedback, despite of all my nonsensical mumblings. and its from a kid. how the world has evolved. i have to take this long and latin jargon-filled reply in a social forum as a true compliment for taking me so academically. no need to appologize for ur wife. i think she is wise: a nonsensical and wicked person like me hardly deserves that much time and energy from a child prodigy. there are far better things to engage him than this. but maybe u as his proud father could have consulted him first if the concept of evolution is only limited to biology before ur first reply to this thread, then i wouldnt have taken u so slightly to the point of possibly hurting ur fragile ego.
some of the examples i have quoted might have given the impression that my opinions are well backed by scientific evidences. but i have said it clearly more than once that my opinions are largely based on my observations and media exposure, rather than any scientific training. i actually think science has been overrated, as if something of scientifically proven must be closer to the truth than something yet to be proven.
scientific methodology is an effective way to help us understand the world. but science has its limit and shouldnt be held in supremacy to deny other approaches in seeing the world. all the scientific theories are conditioned. once beyond the conditions, a revamp of the theory is inevitable.
when one is obsessed with science, one might trade off his trust in his own senses. for example, let me work out my girlfriend’s attractiveness in statistical details before i make a proposal to marry her. marriage is a big thing in life, a high scientific standard must be commanded.
thanks for dropping all the big names but whats the relevance whether i understand the difference between psychology or psychoanalysis or who is the ultimate father of psychology? go and ask ppl around who is the father of psychology and see which name comes up the most often and i will go with that answer. surely i m not as knowledgable as u about psychology judging by the names u dropped, but how does it affect my comment about psychology being a new scientific subject so as to justify the controversy over the reliability of IQ tests? i m not writing a text book and i m not obliged to do background research on every detail, esp if the detail factors little in my opinion. its called good sense of judgement. lacking that, u could easily make urself look like a twat however knowledgable u r.
right from the very beginning, i have pointed out cantonese should give way to mandarin becoz cantonese is the least evolved chinese dialect and cantonese culture is not well-regarded throughout chinese history becoz of the slow evolution in the cantonese area due to warm weather. isnt that obvious enough that evolution (therefore genetics) is relevant in the discussion? the links given by kaykaychow do tell a lot about phonetics about cantonese but the writer has focused on the wrong direction, which is why he thinks cantonese being more tonal and more difficult to learn is to cantoense advantage as a communication tool. cantonese has 9 tonations and mandarin 3 or 4 depending on area. ancient greek was tonal too but modern greek is not. why? being so knowledgeable in the relevant field, how come this professor hasnt noticed the southward shift of language influence from north to south throughout history and asked why? i like a line said by alibaba’s founder Ma yun a lot: “its more important to get things done in the right direction than get things done well.” changing the teaching medium to mandarin is definitely the right direction for hong kong.
yes, if 1% of difference in DNA between us and the great apes has made a world of difference between our numbers and living conditions, difference between races however small does give one more survival edge over another. if A’s genes have been subjected to more changes as compared to Lucy(or whoever as by the most recent scientific saying) than B’s genes compared to Lucy, A is considered more evolved than B. mandarin has incorporated more changes than cantonese if to compare with ancient chinese, meaning mandarin has progressed faster.
yes we are all chinese but all the creatures on earth are all earth beings, why bother categorizing them into different groups under hideous scientific latin names? ur sudden relax of scientific standard shocks me.
cantonese ppl are mainly the descendant of the tribal native people of ancient Bai3yue4 tribes. Bai means hundreds. Yue means outsiders or beyond the changjiang river. that is what the northern Han called the ppl living in the now cantonese area 2000 years ago. southerners below the changjiang river were only assimilated into the Hans culture after kingdom wu subjugated the southern part of china. most cantonese ppl have different subclades of genetics compare to the chinese of the central and northern region(along and above the changjiang river), which is why cantonese look slightly different by having a bigger jaw frame, thicker lips, different mongoloid eyes and slightly darker and shorter on average.
i wasnt going to do background research on So Dongpo's words. it was merely a hear-say. disregard for southerners and southern culture in chinese history is not news. hk’s short and extraordinary history and seclusion from china might have made ppl in hk less oblivious of that.
i think u totally missed my point about the chimp’s short-term memory and NBA players reflex. trade-off was the key concept in my argument yet u seem to have totally missed that out in ur extended discussion. again, wrong focus and thus an utter waste of detailing. the experiment sugggested some instint-like abilities for short-term gain in our ancient ancestors might have been traded off for abilities that would allow more sophisticated plans for long term interest during the course of evolution. based on that i suggested that black ppl, being less evolved than the white and asians, might have been thru less trade-offs and thus retained a bit more of our ancient ancestors instinct-like traits which allows them an advantage in basketball which quick reaction probably matters more than strategy esp in the NBA level. blacks are not as good with strategy which is why most of the NBA coaches are white. the blacks probably do have a better short-term memory, allowing them spot the positions of their teammates and opponents more instant and react on that slightly faster. i thought ur scientific training should have prepared u to be more easily enlightened in a fairly straightforward extrapolation like this one.
a good experiment requires both good intuition and good reasoning. intuition and reasoning do not have to be exclusive of each other but its probably more to good intuition’s credit that makes a difference between a great scientist and a mediocre sci-tech worker who only knows to focus on tedious details yet misses out the big picture and the key point. sorry i m compelled to drop a line by a big name, einstein, simply put as “intuition is the gift from god and reasoning the servant.” (original words:The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.)
by the way, does knowing the difference between an ape and a monkey give an uplift to one’s ego or what? i like to tease naughty kids with “u cheeky monkey”, should “u cheeky ape” be more appropriate since we homo sapiens sapiens is closer to an ape than a monkey? -- excuse my utter ignorance of the proper scientific names for ape and monkey. i hope that doesnt discount my point? someone really needs to get out more of his scientific closet.
honestly, no, i dont know much about lucy or those latin jargons in ur long list of point 1 to 12, nor do i care much. but good to know the jaw muscle gene mutation theory is not final. but thats norm for science. there will always been new evidences and the consequent revamps of the old theories. as for any further discussion on point 1 to 12, an academic forum might be more appropriate. the experts there might be interested. i m done. my point was merely that not all mutations are bad and new species comes from mutation. the rest are experts concern.
how is my idea that learning a more evolved more efficient language could benifit ur competitivenss and thus the succession of ur gene funny to the point of death calling? u may need to work up ur laugh threshhold to a more functional level if ur simplistic mindset has been proven hopeless of further enlightment. u really make another good example of cantonese ppl’s simplistic mindset, despite of much education, which can still only manage to take words one by one literally. no wonder cantonese businessmen have a reputation as petty merchants. man’s history of civilization is a process of making more and more efficent tools to benefit our survival competitiveness. language and tool making are what differentiate us most from the other creatures. language is essentially also a tool, a vital tool for us to understand and be understood. dont u want to be equipped with a more efficent tool to serve that purpose? if u had the option of not to learn english, would u have taken the chance not to learn it? if yes, would u be having a better job than what u r having now? and would u be more likely to marry someone better than ur current wife or worse? if ur wife is better looking than u, she has better gene than u and thus better luck for ur next generation. is that all so difficult to follow?
sorry i dont have any example of racial eradication by gene dilution. i knew it is not a well-worded and an easily misconceived statement. but i didnt expect my words would be taken so literally on a social forum. my point in elaboration was: “pls relax, bloody racial eradication such as a genocide rarely happens in a civilzed society anymore. instead, gene dilution will take place. the less evolved, less pleasant, less competitive lot will be outdone by the more evolved. the less evolved will have less chance to pass on their genes and their gene representation in the gene pool of the population will become smaller and smaller (dilution).”
i mentioned genocide in africa, a less evolved and less civilized place, as a contrast to gene dilution. “proposing to eradicate cantonese?’ -- give me a break.
[ 本帖最後由 wicked 於 11-2-10 17:12 編輯 ]
作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-8 17:13
1. this is the link showing the IQ vs Attractiveness study:
http://chuiko.com/index.php?newsid=2985
2. i also noticed hainan was marked differently from china in the IQ by country map but that might have been done on purpose. i remember hainan scores the lowest in the national survey i came across. including hainan might skew the bigger china below 105. given the small population in hainan, such a skew is probably considered not justifiable. just my unscientific guess.
作者: uncleedward 時間: 11-2-9 23:08 標題: 回覆 wicked 的文章
Dear wicked
趁着家中除一兒娚女其他孩子都在外國，幾兄弟姊妹陪母親過年到大陸外省幾個大寺廟走了一圈，回來趁有點時間寫點東西。
正如 eviepa 所說，這兒祇不過是一個茶餘飯後吹水的地方，我就先介紹一下我喜歡的兩首小提琴曲子。
第一首是Perlman (即便不是最也一定是現今最好之一) 演奏的「舒特拉的名單」 (Schindler's List)的主題曲。中國人經常認為自己災難深重，但比起猶太人，唉……
(若只聽音樂，可略去頭50秒。)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qLePhm-xGs&feature=related
若上面的曲子未能令你流淚，試一試夜闌靜時獨自聽一下小提琴曲之中最廣為人知的 Zigeunerweisen (流浪者之歌)的第三段。(Perlman 開始前對自己因小兒麻痺而殘疾的双腿的坦然自謔也是經典的，個人覺得比 annie40 介紹的 Amiee Mullins 更應為殘疾人士的榜樣:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEmbFSiJzEQ&feature=fvw
而我個人最喜愛的版本，是由上世紀公認最佳的小提琴家 Heifetz 所演奏的。他的第三段，拉得比任何人都慢，如泣如訴，直扣心弦。
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk2kfD5ZKls&feature=related
當然，以你的聰明，當應猜到我要說的：這兩位天才小提琴家，都是納粹口中低等民族的猶太人。
前天陶傑又再在他蘋果的專欄重覆白種人優越論。就連口沒遮攔的陶傑，也只是說”條頓語系（ Teutonic）的民族……的優秀品質"，不直說日耳曼民族，甚至不用已替代 Teutonic 的 Germanic 一字，可見此話題之敏感。My dear friend, tread carefully because we are treading on other people’s memories which are intertwining with some of mankind’s most shameful episodes in history.
The danger of your thinking lies in the fact that they are partially correct. For example, Cantonese people in general are not as good looking as 江浙一帶人士; Blacks in general score worse than Whites in all kinds of academic achievement tests; beautiful people have higher IQ. All of these are not new but your interpretations and the deductions from them are wrong.
As I said before, I am not interested in discussing the thesis of your post. It is happening anyway. The Chinese government has been doing this to other minority ethnicities since the first day they came to the power. By 2047, PTH will have replaced Cantonese as the teaching medium for long.
You, however, base your thesis on your idea that Cantonese the language and Cantonese the people are less evolved than the northern ones. I think you mean less refined and less intelligent (good looking) respectively. Remember what I said? Adoption of PTH in China has nothing to do with natural evolution of the language. You have not come back with any valid counter arguments.
If we look at the broader picture, although I am not a linguist, but contrary to your belief, I can assure you that language is not primarily a means of communication but a means of communion(sorry I don’t know how to translate this.). In most parts of the world, ethnic unity and cultural identification are routinely defined by language.
With the exceptions of Switzerland and India (the latter has ten official languages), multiple languages used in a country often lead to the country being split up. Serbs 塞爾維亞人 and Croats克羅地亞人 called themselves Yugoslavs 南斯拉夫人 and pretended to like each other, but they are two nationalities now. Slovakia’s 斯洛伐克 split from Czechoslovakia 捷克 was also largely a result of language conflicts. Canada and Belgium are both having real dangers of having the country breaking up into ethnicities speaking different languages. Imagine you are in Belgium, can you settle the issue by a rational discussion of whether Flemish(Dutch) or French is more refined? Imagine you are in Quebec, can you settle the issue by a rational discussion whether English or French is more refined?
English originated from German and we know George I, as King of England, spoke no English, but finally instead of German, English has been adopted in England. Then can we say English is more refined than German? Can we then ask the German to give up German and switch to English for a better future? The spread of a language is often a reflection of political and economic power. Aesthetical consideration, my friend, together with linguistic evolution, simply occupies no place at all in history. Arnold Toynbee 湯恩比observed soon after the First World War that "the growing consciousness of Nationality had attached itself … almost exclusively to mother tongues."
Whether to use PTH has simply nothing to do with the question whether PTH or Cantonese is more refined.
I joined an elite firm right after leaving university. The company boasted of only hiring the top 1 or 2% of university graduates. When I worked in its London branch, one third of the employees were Oxbridge graduates. During one of the annual dinners, a senior manager made the observation that all the partners brought along to the dinner by the employees were either beautiful or handsome. This should answer your question why beautiful people have higher IQ. I’d like to quote here again the third paragraph of the report in your link:
“Researchers tend to explain this to the fact that the beautiful and intelligent people are attracted to each other, their children tend to inherit not only the physical beauty of their parents, but their craving for intellectual development, as well as the ability to acquire knowledge. These observations, it was said, were confirmed in the course of similar studies in the U.S.”
The explanation is simple.
「江東弟子多才俊」，歷史上著名出產俊秀人才，如花美女的地方，不分南北，其實都是較富庶的地方。有錢了，娶個漂亮媳婦，好像「非誠勿擾2」齊奮所講的改良品種乃天經地義之事。幾代人下來，地方的人物風貌就不同了。This has nothing to do with natural evolution. 香港一李家，多年來不斷捐款牛記，但第二代全在二三線大學唸書，但觀其挑媳婦及生孫仔的方法，可斷言其第三代必為牛記學生。
南北之論，跡近維園阿叔所好，不說為佳。
We all agree there are differences in intelligence of different populations (you may notice I don’t say ‘races’ here, and not even the more modern term ‘ethnicities’), but no scientists can tell us yet how much is attributable to genetic factors and how much to environmental factors. Take East and West Germany in the old days or North and South Korea nowadays, one would imagine the difference is attributable mainly to environmental factors. However, it will be much more difficult to compare a tribe in Hainan to mandarins in Beijing. The influence of stereotyping on different ethnicities also adds to the problem. However, scientists so far have no proofs whatsoever that there are significant differences in cognitive abilities among different ethnicities.
It is a bit sad to see that you have not challenged the basic ideas in my previous posts but at the same time refuse to look into the basis of your own arguments.
死性不改，本想遊戲文章一番，但…….
[ 本帖最後由 uncleedward 於 11-2-10 21:41 編輯 ]
作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-10 17:11
Hi again Uncle Edward
always an engligntening experience reading ur well versed reply (even orchestrated with classical music this time -- unfortunately i m not that much a musical person. basketball is more of my arena -- i guess that easily makes me more monkey like than u?) i look forward to more of the sorts and being challenged that my opinions are wrong. i think thats a good way for myself to examine my opinions, and for self-reflection and improvement. maybe thats why i m still tempted to visit forums from time to time despite of time constraint.
no offence, but i guess u wouldnt deny that u are quite a snob, judging by “跡近維園阿叔所好”? that somehow gets me to think of winston churchill’s comment about democracy:”the best argument against democracy is a 5min conversation with an average voter.” he is probably one of the most respected snobs in england though. thx for Washburn’s quote in ur previous response. definately well-said there but then again i would only take his idea as an ideal worth striving for, just like john lennon’s “imagine no country no heaven”. its ideals like these that shape man’s civilization. we strive to be fair bcoz we are born to favour. as long as recources are limited, man is territorial, our sense of belonging comes from the feeling of sameness, and segregation by borders persists, race, nation and discrimination will persist. “We are born to be discriminatory on difference, which compels us to be distinguished, distinguished enough to discriminate the less distinguished. Thats our bad karma.” -- by a 16yr old high school girl in northern china(ha’erbin). its all her own original words in english(not my translation). i was utterly impressed by her philosophical insight at such a tender age. she is fair, tall and very good looking too.
time constraint is probably more of a problem for ppl like me who are still in the striving years than those already more or less into a sheltered bay(such as u?). i didnt re-read ur previous reply and merely replied based on the impression that the key note of ur response is racial equality(as well supplemented by ur daughter’s well-written article), the rest are just trivial if no consensus can be reached upon the equality issue. the difference between u and me is that u probably think 維園阿叔 could have turned out more or less just like u had they had ur upbringing and education and worked as hard as u have, whereas i tend to think quite unlikely if they look less attractive than u to begin with. look is a representation of genetic make-up which determines one’s potential and later exposure determines to what extend such a potential can be reached. gene is the result of accumulated expsures and selections our ancesters had been thru, ie encompassing a far longer time-line than the exposure we have in our life-time, by simple logic, gene certainly matters more than upbring and education in ones outcome.
u must have come across our chinese old saying “一命二运三风水四积阴德五读书”. great wisdom there. i see 命=gene.
an under-educated but phyiscally more attrative and street smart guy can easily lead a more interesting and meaningful life than a physically less attractive booksmart nerd. i do think education in modern society has been overrated, resulting in quite a waste of resources. its no news that phD graduates are unemployed or doing work that they over-qualify. or how to justify the recources in producing a degree holder in international politics who ends up polishing others bathrooms? that seems to be the case in Chip Tao’s house. I used to be Chip Tao’s fan for a very short while after watching a few europe-tour TV episodes guided by him despite i cant say i m all that keen with his over the top pro-west attitude. i was quite fond of his sharp critical sense till i read a shamelessly arse-kissing ariticle by him about David Tang. he went straight into the pathetic bin after that. apparently he is a die-hard cantonese defender too. one more point down the drain.
i dont have scientific backings for racial cognitive differences. one more time i am saying this: my opinions are based on my observations and media exposure, and my regard for good senses is greater than whether its scientifically proven or not. our senses are like parents to science, without sense, whats the point of science? science by and large is still very limited to the scope of linear logic and reasoning, i doubt it can ever explains intuition and asesthetics. can music be interpreted by science? yet a good piece of melody can easily charm more ppl than a great scientific writing. science is powerful but not mighty. science is to explain the world based on what we know, there is no limit to the world yet what we know is always limited. thats the limit of science. its this realization that changes my view about religion.
“有錢了，娶個漂亮媳婦...改良品種乃天經地義之事” -- have u ever asked why? why are we intuitively attracted to good looking ppl, and associating that with改良品種? do we do that becoz of scientific backing? why would most ppl intuitively prefer a physically more attrative girl from a humble background than an average looking girl from a rich family? why teachers tend to favour good looking kids and good looking kids are easily more popular in school than a less attractive kid? even babies prefer to look at pictures of more symmetrical faces(that is so far the best science can tell about physical attractiveness in precision: attractive faces are more symmetrical than unattractive ones). all these are becoz of nature’s calling. this is exactly one obvious aspect of what i meant by man’s evolution being guided by aesthetics. i doubt if such preference could ever be rationalized thru science as long as science is yet to explain intuition.
same as reasoning, aesthetic consideration plays a role in every aspect of our life but not necessarily as easily self-aware as reasoning. there has been philosophical debates over whether civilization has progressed thru reasoning or aesthetics. i would say both hand in hand with aesthtics as the spinal cord(sacred gift) and reasoning the back bone(faithful servant). a similar analogy may also apply for good look and intelligence.
its probably impossible to explain aesthetics thru language. language is more a product of logic and reasoning. i will try to explain my association of aesthetics with energy efficiency. try to compare the lips between a black and a white, whats the difference and why so? what do we use our lips for? -- eating and talking. i will skip the eating bit and just focus on talking since thats what we differ most from the great apes. which type of lips would be more energy efficient in producing the same sound, for example, “bo”? try to think of the energy supply(blood) to support the functioning of the lips, would a pair of big thick lips demands more supply or a pair of small thin lips? which type of lips would be considered more attractive aesthetically? the sound produced by which type is less abrasive and less coarse? i know the difference is probably almost negligible but however small, there is a difference that judgement of preference can be made.
ur quote:“Bergman’s rule: Mammals’ body size tends to be greater in populations that live in cooler climates because a smaller surface area to mass ratio allows for better heat retention.” -- another good example of an energy efficient adaptation, which is why we aspire to be tall instead of short.
whats the point of energy efficiency? -- so u can save energy for something else, for example, to support a higher level of mental functioning such as becoming more empathetic, more insightful and more sophisticated.
“I have a certain flair for language. Although I was born in Hong Kong, I can pass as a northerner if only 閑話家常 is involved.” -- its becoz u have a more refined hearing systems(ear, nerves, brain cells and the wirings in between etc) which can tune to sounds and tones very acutely, and also a more refined sound producing system(throat, tongue and facial muscles etc) which can mimic well what u hear. good mimicking is the reflection of a more developed empathy. does it ever occur to u why black americans seem to speak with a slightly different accent from the white(even as smart as Obama and his wife)? ppl might say its becoz of the different neighbourhood they grow up in. maybe, but i tend to think different physical features and empathetic ability also play a part.
language is primarily for communication. the others such as communion are just secondary added values. “the spread of language is often a reflection of political and economic power.” -- true but what results in such power? ultimately its down to the genetic level, which is why singapore could become independant from malaysia becoz chinese is a more evolved ethnic group than the malays; and for the same reason, the whole south east asia’s economy is dominated by the overseas chinese living in these countries despite chinese only make up a small percentage of the population and chinese settlement in these countries is only of a couple hundred years history.
do u also notice the northward shift of cultural centre in both the east and west?
as said in my reply to eviepa, a culture thats more aesthetically appreciated will translate into power of influence. that explains the southward shift of language influence from the north. the adoption of mandarin as the official spoken language in china is hardly by chance. the replacement and merging of the ancient local dialects in the south by and with the dialects from central china to become nowadays cantonese is also not by chance. these are all results of natural selection.
english is certainly a more refined language than the other european languages. despite of its german origin, it has also incorporated influences from various other dialects and languages. more changes means greater the refinement which allows the language to be more precise thus more efficient in communicating mind work(its said only 10% at best of our mind work gets translated into language). i have come across quite a few non-english europeans who said they prefer to write business letter in english as its clearer and more precise. many chinese scholars in the scientific field also finds english more effective in communicating scientific ideas.
i know french has a good name for its music-like-ness. but even during my student days, i already found languages of anglo-saxon origin(english, german and scandinavians) more pleasant than the latin range of languages(french, spanish, italian). french is probably a bit in between.
man’s history is a history of learning from mistakes. i dont think by turning a blind eye to racial differences is a justified and dignify lesson from the tragedy of holocaust.
a tolerant open mind starts from acknowledging differences and racial differences are obvious from face to living conditions.
i probably havent been able to cover all the points u raised but this is the best i can do for today.
[ 本帖最後由 wicked 於 11-2-10 17:12 編輯 ]
作者: annie40 時間: 11-2-10 18:20
谢谢uncle 送来三首好曲子.
我对音乐艺术是一窍不通, 然每当听到殿堂级的演奏或意大利歌剧, 必潜然落泪, 那种震撼, 非言语笔墨可形容.
任何艺术到了一定境界, 自然地超脱人世语言情感物欲等障碍, 是天籁之音矣.
门外汉如我, 不懂欧语, 歌剧竟可令人如痴如醉.
原来音乐才是宇宙的共通语, 把信息传到心惂里.
经常想除却母语外, 音乐才是我们必修语, (反正语文千万, 能活用各地外语的真不多, 除非个别拥有难得的语文环境),
中國人經常認為自己災難深重，但比起猶太人，唉……
关于猶太人的苦难, 似乎香港人认识不深. 推荐看以下好书:
Alicia – My Story
(by Alicia Appleman Jurman)
如想了解猶太宗教信仰和猶太人家教, 可看:
Faith by Erich Segal
(Jewish and Catholic religions woven in a beautiful love story), 作者父亲是rabbi, 对猶太家庭的生活描述很详尽.
无可否认, 二千多年来猶太人散落世界各地, 竟然奇迹般地生存, 比原居民活得更出息, 除了太家同意猶太人行聪明, 我个人的看法是有以下原素:
a)
家教极严, 生活极有规律.家族关系极亲密, 有情有义, 父慈子考, 兄幼弟恭. 家规上看似男女不平等.
偏是家族对女子极度尊重和保护.
b)
上帝的子民
–自古以来无论何时何地猶太人都没忘记自身是上帝的子民, 这种自豪感带给他们希望, 带给他们安全感, 加上先烈先祖的丰功伟绩, 树立好榜样, 容许他们站在最黑暗时代, 只要一息常存, 依然相信黑暗尽头是光明大道.
c)
生命时刻受到威胁, 生活无保障
或处身不公平的社会环境中. 与生俱来便要争扎求全.
认识的非凡朋友, 历史伟人, 和当代成就桌越人才, 全需合乎以上三个条件. 或最少其二.
再看美国黑人, 完全合乎
( C ), 但是 (a) and (b) 依然欠奉,
Dr. Martin Luther Kind Jr 死后四十三年, 美国黑人的前景还是一蹶不振….
老是埋怨白人政府的无理打压, 可是打压得最重的是Jewish and Chinese, 不是活得好吗.
曾说中国人跟猶太人有共通处, 是按以上三个法则而说的. 亦是个人主观意见. 大家未必同意
曾想女儿是中国人, 有五千年文化的光辉岁月, 亲戚中刚好有些念书材料,
勉强跟 (b) 攀上关系, (a) 是有点牵强, 但粗略地算有家教吧! (又自以为是?) 哎! (c) 就……毫不相干了.
因此难有突出成就, 是意料之中呢.
或许应该狠心地贱让孩子吗?
以上分享是离题吧, 但见wicked文章多了, 很累! Wicked, 这纯是我个人喜好, 无偏见的. 勿骂! (就像喜爱吃肉, 还是吃素). 从文中见君见多识广, 如能可另开新topic, 教我通识,小女子感谢万分.
原帖由 uncleedward 於 11-2-9 23:08 發表
Dear wicked
趁着家中除一兒娚女其他孩子都在外國，幾兄弟姊妹陪母親過年到大陸外省幾個大寺廟走了一圈，回來趁有點時間寫點東西。
正如 eviepa 所說，這兒祇不過是一個茶餘飯後吹水的地方，我就先介紹一下我喜歡的兩首小 ...
作者: friendlyguy 時間: 11-2-12 03:00 標題: 回復 42# wicked 的帖子
Wicked,
First of all, I have to apologize that I thought you were a science-oriented person. The reasons of my misunderstanding may be:
1. You talked about evolution----a biological science term
2. IQ-----a psychological term
3. You said you were trained in the life-science field.
4. Your quotation of seemly scientific evidence: (a map showing IQ distribution of different countries and a hear say in a Chinese symposium)
Correct me if I am wrong, the word ‘intuition’ only appeared in the post no 37 dated 6/2/2011.
If I know it sooner that you do not value science and do things according to intuition only, I would probably never reply to this thread and have my energy conserved. It is because I totally agree with uncleedward’s idea ‘I do think everyone is allowed his/her own biases no matter how weird or how wicked they may seem.’ as long as he/she doesn’t act like he has concrete evidence. Moreover, I must thank God for you are not the policymaker and pray for that you never become one.
“when one is obsessed with science, one might trade off his trust in his own senses. for example, let me work out my girlfriend’s attractiveness in statistical details before i make a proposal to marry her. marriage is a big thing in life, a high scientific standard must be commanded.”
Your idea of learning English to find a mate with better genes to produce offspring with you makes me feel you will really act this way!
I believe in 見微知著，ignorance in ‘common sense’ in certain field, e.g. psychology, biology indicates that this person is a 門外漢.
I also agree with Einstein (one of my son’s favourite scientists)’s words. ‘ The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.’ However, not everyone with seemingly intuitive mind is gifted. Also, once an idea comes out, one must use scientific method to prove it. I think it is exactly what Einstein had done!
‘yes we are all chinese but all the creatures on earth are all earth beings, why bother categorizing them into different groups under hideous scientific latin names? ur sudden relax of scientific standard shocks me.’
If we continue to categorize, the ultimate classification will be individual names. Then, we have no need to discuss the differences in IQ and esthetics anymore, since everyone should know every individual is different. Can you tell me which individual is most ‘evolved’ in China using your intuition?
I came across a web site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_ ... ons#Related_studies
Although I am not a great fan of comparing IQs in different Nations, I think these data are more trustable than what you quoted. These data also had been questioned like other IQ studies, but at least we can trace the reference and a book had been published. Not like the symposium, which you had never given its name and the obviously wrong map.
The data show Hong Kong’s average IQ is 107, which ranked no. 1 in the whole world. China has a score of 100, which is no.12. Can you use your superb intuition to enlighten me what the indication is? Don’t tell me China’s score is lowered by the scores of Cantonese and Hainan, since everyone knows the predominated population in Hong Kong is Cantonese.
Can you also enlighten me, according to this data, what teaching medium should Hong Kong use? Should we continue to use the less ‘evolved’ language Cantonese that, according to your logic, proved to make Hong Kong’s high IQ. Or, should we change to PTH that is used in mainland, which showed a lower IQ? Or, the less ‘evolved’, less esthetically pleasing dialect Cantonese should be use in mainland as teaching medium so as to raise China’s IQ level? Or, the gene pool of Hong Kong people suddenly became most ‘evolved’ in the world? Does it show Hong Kong people are the most aesthetically pleasing in the world (Hong Kong’s female should be very happy!)?
In order not to be Chimpanzee like as Iamfine commented, I better stop here.
Regards,
Friendlyguy
P.S. My son is not a child prodigy, he is just an ordinary kid who likes to read. I think it is not a waste of time for him since he has a lot of things to learn (good or bad, of-course under guidance) from you. He feels it is fun and became a fan of uncleedward. So, please well behave, Uncle!
作者: cow 時間: 11-2-12 16:38
原帖由 friendlyguy 於 11-2-12 03:00 發表
I came across a web site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_ ... ons#Related_studies
Although I am not a great fan of comparing IQs in different Nations, I think these data are more trustable than what you quoted. These data also had been questioned like other IQ studies, but at least we can trace the reference and a book had been published. Not like the symposium, which you had never given its name and the obviously wrong map.
I don't thnk the IQ scores are related to the topic but below is the more updated one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_Global_Inequality#National_IQ_and_QHC_values
作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-12 23:10
friendly guy
i appreciate ur devotion to this topic which u seem to despise much.
as by ur high scientific standard, how come u didnt point out one obvious flaw in the IQ link u provided: hk as a city but being compared with other nations? A nation covers cities and countrysides. Ppl living in cities are far more exposed and subjected to more selection pressure as a result of keener competition due to a denser population. i assume its a consensus in this thread that one’s IQ(the measurement of which is mainly based on logic and reasoning) can be trained up by exposure. That's why city ppl in general seem to be smarter than ppl living in the countryside. The fact that HK has attracted talents from around the world after its take off to become one of the most populated and competitive cities in the world, and being blessed with both eastern and western culture, could account more for the high score than the Cantonese gene pool. i would be the least surprised if beijing and shanghai score higher than hong kong on a city to city comparison. (there seems to be some relevant discussion on this in one of the threads here). actually if i dont recall the data wrong, both zhejiang(a province near shanghai) and hebei(the province which beijing is within) score close to 110 in the IQ by province data i came across. If the hk score is much due to the Cantonese gene pool, we shouldn't see Guangdong and Hainan on the low end of the spectrum. (again if u think I fabricated all these, suit urself.)
China scoring 100 is not bad at all, considering still more than 50% (used to be 80% before the economic reform) of the population are living in the countryside as peasants who not only have far less social exposure than ppl in hk, many are even deprived of basic education (whereas education for children under 15 is compulsary by law in hk and hk being an international trading port has also enjoyed very dynamic and diverse influences from around the world).
the bi-lingual culture in both hk and singapore might have given a boost to their scores. In biology, hybrid is known to have a survival advantage. That might well apply for cultural hybrid too.
I actually came across this link before but I didn't quote it here bcoz i thought data of city vs nation can be misleading. but now having another look, the pattern of the data across the world is of no big difference from the map i quoted. the reason i quoted the map is mainly to highlight the north-southward pattern.
if hk’s high score attributes much to the cantonese gene pool, how come vietnam merely scores 95, which is actually consistent with hainan’s score i came across? vietnamese share more common genes with cantonese than northern chinese with cantonese. north korea, also a communist country of similar size as vietnam, scores 105. i would expect north koreans are far less exposed socially than hk ppl. so could their high score be more to do with genetic advantage? if yes, it makes perfect sense to say that northern chinese, who actually look more like koreans than cantonese, have more refined genes than southern cantonese. thanks for providing evidence for my point.
Based on my experience in hk (which i mentioned before: out of the bright and refined chinese i have come across here, more often than not, they are not cantonese), I tend to think the representation of non-Cantonese chinese elites in hk could be well over the non-Cantonese representation in the whole population.
Did I ever try to pretent to be an expert? Or just ur scientific conclusion becoz i mentioned the seeminly academic words like evolution, aesthetics, IQ and life science? U have focused too much on my background rather than my opinions, as if if i were an expert my opinions must be unquestionable, but if I were just an amature, my opinions must be nonsensical. Didnt i said it clearly that i dont see an inevitable connection between my education training and my opinions?
as a guy, u r really petty about unimportant details. Its rather agonizing to have a discussion with a petty and simplistic mindset as almost everything needs to be explained repeatedly and literally as if talking to a pre-school kid.
I always take on a cautious attitude towards ppl who introduce themselves as nice, friendly, easy going. More often than not, it simply reflects the aspired traits they fail to have in real life.
Evolution is not limited to biology. It means a process of small and gradual changes and is also applied to linguistics and sociology. We can even apply evolution to how an idea comes about from scratches or how a discussion developes.
When the word "intuition" comes into the discussion depends on how the discussion has evolved. "Imagination" can come in too who knows when.
Now u know how much I value intuition why u still bothered not conserving ur energy till 3am? Was it based on a scientifically reasoned conclusion or a statistically calculated decision?
I make my judgement based on both reasoning and intuition. being intuitive is not a counter statement against science. By accusing me of not valuing science tells much about ur sense of judgement. I have high respect for science but I don't think science can explain everything and I have no less regard for ideas yet to be scientifically proven than the proven as long as the idea makes good sense to me. Not every idea can be proven by science as long as science is yet to find the door into beauty and kindness.
"Your idea of learning English to find a mate with better genes to produce offspring with you makes me feel you will really act this way!" is it of much ur concern how i would act? or r u trying to say u did just the opposite? be that the case, good for u to have made such a sacrifice for humanity. Waste of resources can be cut short.
"I believe in 見微知著，ignorance in ‘common sense’ in certain field, e.g. psychology, biology indicates that this person is a 門外漢." someone who can't act on what he believes is a good validation of his incompetence. Thats why he works on 見微more than needed yet always misses the point. By ur logic, since u know so much common sense such as the differences between psychology and psychoanalysis, should that make u an insightful "men2 nei4 han4" in psychology? But how come u seem never tired of displaying ur lack of insight and good sense? however much u aspire to be friendly, u really dont have to validate my judgement about the wastefulness of over education. I dont want to be in debt of others friendly gesture too much.
"However, not everyone with seemingly intuitive mind is gifted. Also, once an idea comes out, one must use scientific method to prove it. I think it is exactly what Einstein had done!" again, the sense and logic demonstrated here tell a lot about how gifted u must be. Prove the idea of "wicked" scientifically if u can.
the charm of reasoning is precision wheras of intuition is ambiguity. The notion of "most" is about precision, how could "the most evolved" be derived from intuition alone? how to rate the quality of a scientific mind coming up with such an illogical question? When discussion over racial differences still causes so much controvercy, where lies the ground for finding the most evolved individual? If sex cannot be discussed, is there a point to talk about sex education?
dont worry. u r not chimp like at all. chimps have better connected brainnetwork and would have learned what backfire means long before this.
[ 本帖最後由 wicked 於 11-2-12 23:21 編輯 ]
作者: friendlyguy 時間: 11-2-13 23:38 標題: 回復 49# wicked 的帖子
Wicked,
My intuition tells me I am not welcome here. Holding a different opinion is considered to be an unfriendly act. But I am here to make some final remarks thick skinned.
1. ‘I actually came across this link before but I didn't quote it here bcoz i thought data of city vs nation can be misleading’ If you quote this link well before hand and say this is misleading, I will give you this credit. But now, my intuition tells me you are very skillful in manipulating data. That means you only show others the information in favor of your opinion.
2. Yes, it may be inappropriate to compare a city to a nation. In fact it is not appropriate to compare different nations due to social and economical differences. That’s why I say I am not a fan of IQs studies.
3. Your explanation of the reasons why Hong Kong’s high IQ score is full of double standard. I won’t elaborate here. Please refer to your own argument of the importance of gene and education in post no. 1 and post no.11.
4. The only person who knows the IQ data about different regions of China here is you. You can say anything about that. But, I have to stress that this is of little relevance if any. You have also forgotten to tell us the IQ score of your birthplace. Maybe it is over 200.
5. If you read the web site carefully, you will find the data of N. Korea is estimated to be the same as that of S. Korea since no data can be found for N. Korea. This shows your………….
6. In biology, hybrid is not known to have a survival advantage. Some may even result in stillbirth, sterility and other defects.
7. ‘"Your idea of learning English to find a mate with better genes to produce offspring with you makes me feel you will really act this way!" is it of much ur concern how i would act? or r u trying to say u did just the opposite? be that the case, good for u to have made such a sacrifice for humanity. Waste of resources can be cut short’ My answer: I haven’t thought about it when I fell in love with my wife. Love should not be so calculative. That’s why we laughed to death when we read your statement. Do you understand now? I feel pity for your wife.
8. Statement A: Ignorance in ‘common sense’ in a certain field, e.g. psychology, biology. Statement B: This person is a 門外漢. If statement A is true than statement B is true. However, if statement A is false (not ignorance in ‘common sense’ in certain field, e.g. psychology, biology) does not indicate statement B is false (this person is not a 門外漢). Simple logic, my son also knows that.
9. ‘Bergman’s rule: Mammals’ body size tends to be greater in populations that live in cooler climates because a smaller surface area to mass ratio allows for better heat retention.” -- another good example of an energy efficient adaptation, which is why we aspire to be tall instead of short.
whats the point of energy efficiency? -- so u can save energy for something else, for example, to support a higher level of mental functioning such as becoming more empathetic, more insightful and more sophisticated. ’ No. Energy efficiency was needed because finding food was difficult in the old days. We are homoeothermic. It is important for survival, a matter of life and death. Tall people are not energy efficient unless they are fat. Please consider the surface area to volume ratio.
10. ‘Genetic make up is more important than education.’ Yes, if we are pre-historic human. ‘gene respresents the survival wisdom crystalized from the accumulated exposures our ancestors had over the course of evolution(which is of billions of years)’ However, after civilization started, a much much more efficient means of passing survival wisdom to the descendants was invented ------ writing. Our ancestors past their wisdom and inventions by writing to the later generations, and they got it by education. There is no need to go through the inefficient, random occurring and uncontrollable mutation. Education is getting more and more important and efficient nowadays due to invention of Internet. In fact Human evolution practically stopped for the last 10000 years as mentioned by Dr. Satoshi Kanazawa the writer of your bible ‘IQ vs Attractiveness study’. http://bigthink.com/ideas/19486
11. Concept of esthetic changes with time. In Tang Dynasty, fat woman was considered as beauty, but now most ladies want to be slim. About 2 decades ago, people liked tanned skin since it look healthier, but now most ladies like to become whiter and use whitening products. Thick lips are considered as a sexy sign now. Please have a good look at Angelina Jolie, she is considered as one of the most beautiful actress now. 舒琪 is another example. Many ladies want to have their lips thicken by plastic surgery nowadays. Believe it or not, most people favor a more full lower facial profile since there will be fewer skin wrinkles and look younger. In short, esthetic standard changes but genetic make up is very stable.
As I said I agree with uncleedward’s idea ‘I do think everyone is allowed his/her own biases no matter how weird or how wicked they may seem.’ as long as he/she doesn’t act like he/she has concrete evidence and you have admitted (willingly or unwillingly) that your opinion is largely based on your own intuition only, I will leave you in peace. You can continue with your ‘nonsensical mumblings’. My intuition also tells me that a different opinion is not welcome here. But I will continue to pray for that you will not be a policymaker.
It is a pity that a very meaningful discussion topic had been lead to a very wrong direction.
Finally, let me say a Cantonese statement again: 跌落地挪番揸沙. I may refer to anyone here, including you and me. As you say:歡迎對號入座.
Bye,
A not so friendly friendlyguy
作者: cow 時間: 11-2-14 09:32
原帖由 friendlyguy 於 11-2-13 23:38 發表
My intuition tells me I am not welcome here. Holding a different opinion is considered to be an unfriendly act.
In my point of view, your intuition is not right.
It is a pity that a very meaningful discussion topic had been lead to a very wrong direction.
Agree. Although the discussions are informative, most of them are irrelevant to the topic, which makes the discussions not meaningful.
作者: Jackeylwfd 時間: 11-2-14 15:48
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作者: annie40 時間: 11-2-14 17:11 標題: 回復 3# friendlyguy 的帖子
Hi Friendlyguy,
I'm one of your fans. 请继续努力, 加油!
annie
作者: stccmc 時間: 11-2-14 20:18
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作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-15 19:26
u shouldnt have accredited this thread by reading it thus far be it so unbelievable. its wise to follow ur intuition and devote urself to what u believe. what is intuitively right, there is good reasoning behind it. reasoning is the servant to intuition as by einstein’s word. but then i doubt intuition can be easily rationalized given its ambiguous nature. i didnt take intuition as my escape from science. i merely pointed out science, given its foundation on linear logic and reasoning, has its limit in explaining the world. one of the key elements in my discusion is aesthetics. ask any scientist if beauty and kindness can be explained by science so far.
is there a convoluted intention to jam me with instinct rather than intuition? i only mentioned instinct-like a couple times in the NBA player’s case. if u have a point to make, treat ur point with honour rather than acting like a rat in this case. dont tell me u assume the two words are the same after philosophizing whats the opposite end of intuition.
again, i m no expert in philosophy, but there is a difference between instint and intuition. here is the best of the few i came across on the net:
These two words are used interchangeably in most contexts. For example, I can say, "My instinct is not to trust any politician". I can also say, "My intuition tells me not to trust any politician". Careful users of the language try and make a distinction between the two. They argue that an "instinct" is something that we are born with; it is something that we do naturally without thinking. An instinct is a reaction. An animal, as soon as it is born, instinctively gets up, walks to its mother, and drinks milk. There is no thinking involved here; it is something that the animal has been programmed to do. It seems as if it is automatic. When you don't really have much time to think and react to a particular situation you are responding "instinctively". When a bowler bowls a bouncer at you, you react "instinctively" rather than "intuitively".
The word "intuition", like the word "instinct" does not carry with it a sense of "reasoning", it does, however, suggest or convey the idea that some amount of knowledge and awareness is involved. From experience a teacher intuitively knows when his students understand him and when they don't. After hitting a fast bowler for three fours in a row, you intuitively know that the next ball, or the one after that, is likely to be a bouncer. "Intuition" is based on experience. An instinct is something you are born with, and as you grow into an adult, sometimes you lose some of those instincts. Some people argue that a child is not born with intuition, he gains it through experience.
作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-15 19:29
friendly guy and others
will come back to u later on. good to notice u resort to intuition so often now, yet proven wrong right away by a 3rd party. perhaps we can see it as the ambiguous nature of intuition?
作者: stccmc 時間: 11-2-16 00:04
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作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-16 15:02
for an unbelievable discussion, i would hardly spare any attention nor make a comment about the quality of the argument, let alone to insult others intelligence as if they needed my guidance on the worth of their attention or their sense of judgement.
i care the least if u have read thru this thread but if u hadnt, how would u have arrived to the opinion of “giving weak and inconsistent arguments. When confronted with fact and science, he resorted to instincts or intuition.” and that my argument is based on instinct? by taking words out of context or by ur gut feeling? i bet u must have a lot.
by ur words: how to expect a meaningful discussion based on an argument from ur gut? shall i use that to discredit ur opinion as a demonstration of my reasoning not gut feeling?
i think i have a good enough understanding of intuition vs instinct to appreciate the need for a lecture on gut feeling under the understanding that such a lengthy lecture has nothing to do with any convoluted intention. but as a return to ur well-reasoned lecture, here is my analysis based on your highly regarded reasoning: the point of ur lecture is instinct, intuition and gut feeling are the same as far as this discussion goes, which is why they can be used interchangeably, and an argument from the gut doesnt deserve the service of the reasoning brain for a meaningful discussion. this is quite the opposite to einstein’s opinion in percieving the world. i m not interested in how u two have arrived on the opposite end of perception. before i go on, here is wiki’s quote about einstein: beyond his exellence in science, Einstein also wrote about various philosophical and political subjects such as socialism, international relations and the existence of God. His great intelligence and originality have made the word "Einstein" synonymous with genius and he is coined as the man of the last century. might there be any possibility that u could be a super-genius or the woman of this century if ur perception surpasses his? be that the case, my honour to have been in this conversation with u. albeit that, as a respect for ur superb perception and the consideration that both our arguements are inflatedd with much gut feeling which surely doesnt deserve the service of ur superb brain, the abandonment of ur attention in the developement of this thread will be duly and understandably expected. apparently this expectation by reasoning is in line with ur gut feeling. how interesting.
as said many times, i have high respect for and good faith in my gut feeling and would always try to honour it with good reasoning. i care the least if the discussion here is unbeleivable or meaningful for ur gut feeling but i m tempted to know, would u also honour ur gut feeling as i do or would u simply admit that ur gut feeling is lousy which might explain its undeserving of respect from ur reasoning brain?
作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-16 15:16
there might be readers questioning why the fuss here about intuition vs reasoning. my regard for intuition seems to have become a key target for bombardment by those who disagree with my opinions. however, i m delighted with the help(albeit unwittingly) from the respondents here which has allowed me the oppotunity to make a case to illustrate how my regard for intuition comes about.
intuition is ambiguous by nature which is why one thinks i dont welcome different opinions here while the other thinks the opposite. its also becoz of such ambiguity intuition is considered difficult to be reasoned. intuition influences our sense of direction in decision making. those blessed with good intuition will be more likely to embark on the right track than those with lousy intuition who often either get trapped in pointless details or head into the wrong direction and thus rendering an utter waste of energy or even invite humiliation.
i think intelligence is also ambigous given its multi-dimensional nature. the current IQ measurement is mainly based on linear logic and reasoning, which maybe why the controversy over its representation as intelligence. also becoz of IQ test, intelligence is probably even being equated with logic and reasoning in some context. sense of honour concerns a higher level of intelligence or wisdom which can help carry us a long way yet its hardly within the scope of logic and reasoning. an under developed sense of honour could easily lead one to a lower moral ground regardless of one's reasoning power.
作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-16 15:32
friendly guy
good to see u take on my high regard for intuition.
repeat:i welcome different opinions. but i m really not keen on repeating simply becoz of the incompetence of a couple petty and narrow mindsets. given the choice, i much prefer someone like Uncleedward. at the very least, his opinions offer a different perspective and shed new light into the conversation, and i improve from the experience; whereas with ppl like u, who seems to arm with a heavy load of hard facts and jargons, yet i find myself often either repeating myself relentlessly or bickering on trivial non-sense or pointing out obvious mistakes to the point of belittling u. to belittle a stranger is pointless and does myself more damage than favour.
but one thing i should thank u though is that u have more than once unwittingly provided evidence for my argument. and i do appreciate ur effort in engaging in the conversation.
did u actually read dr kanazawa’s link? taking words out of context to back up an argument could more often do the opposite. question: has man’s evolution stopped? dr kanazawa’s answer: It depends on how you define evolution. If you define evolution as frequency of genes then no, the gene frequencies tend to change over time all the time, but if you’re talking about IMPORTANT PSYCHOLOGICAL TRAITS then yes, probably the human evolution, directional human evolution towards certain psychological mechanisms probably stopped about 10,000 years ago”. 10,000 years of no change in major psychological traits is hardly surprising if to consider the time line of mans evolution history(>200,000yrs ago from ancient modern man as by uncle’s previous quote?) but thats not the point. what has been my focus thru out this discussion? gene or major psychological traits? man never stops evolving as long as our enviroment is changing. as one taoism saying goes: the only thing thats constant about the universe is changing itself.
of course i would prefer data in favour of my opinions. shouldnt that of basic logic? i was in favour of the map becoz my point was to highlight the global patter not the exact figure of each country and the presentation in the form of a map is far more straightforward and indicative of such a pattern. if u google IQ by country, ur link comes up in the top. however skillful i m, i cant cover that up can i? how did i manipulate the data? hk as a city but being compared as a nation is an obvious flaw but u didnt point it out, i assume its not bcoz u prefer data in favour of ur opinion but merely bcoz u failed to notice it despite all that much obsession with statistical details and high scientific standard. am i right again, u always miss the important point.
i have been clear enough about gene and exposure: gene matters more than exposure in ones achievement. IQ test is mainly based on logic and reasoning(correct me if i m wrong since i m no expert), which can be trained up by education and drills. its said that IQ score can be trained up to 30 points by exposure. my question is if “such trained up IQ” would factor as much in ones achievement as the more innate IQ as attributed by gene. i will try to simplify my point using a simplified case: if both a city person and a peasant score 100 in IQ test, assuming the city person’s genetic share of the score is 90 and exposure attributes 10, whereas the peasant’s split is 95 genetic and 5 exposure. if both are then put thru the same exposure for achievememt, i would expect the peasant more likely to learn better and outdo the city person.
once access to internet becomes a basic human right as clean water, the survival game will favour genetic advantage even more than exposure becoz those with genetic advantage(eg allowing a better sense of intuition) will be able to make more efficient use of the internet tool.
作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-16 15:37
some provincial IQ data for reference.
this is the set of data close to the one i came across. i recalled it wrong that guangdong is below 100 but i wasnt wrong to say that guangdong is on the low end of the spectrum. since its a measurement on kids, the factor of education may be less and the score more indicative of genetic attribute.
2005年全国卫生部碘缺乏调查获得的各地儿童平均智商数据
搜索引擎: google学术搜索
采用智商测验标准: 瑞文第2修改版
测试时间: 2005年上半年
浙江农村男童 116.23
浙江平均男童 115.82
浙江男女平均 115.05
北京农村 114.9
杭州城区 114.7
浙江农村女童 114.41
浙江女童平均 114.32
温州5县市平均 114.195
北京平均 114.07
浙江城市女童 113.73
浙江城市男童 113.46
北京城市平均 112.6
全国平均 103.5
湖北城市儿童 111 (地级市以及省城)
吉林平均 107.04
江苏平均 109
湖北县级市以及县城 106.4
湖北平均男童 105.44
湖北平均 105.3
四川 105.3
湖北女童 105.1
广东 103.4 或 101.1
河北城镇 98.04 2004年
全国 2002 年 瑞文标准测试 97.5
河南 95.51
海南 92.6
福建 102.4 2004年调查
湖北农村 98.8
this is another set often quoted on chinese forum. quite a lot of inconsistency with the above set of data but again, guangdong is still on the low end.
世界各地华人的智商分数 ——英国曼萨协会05年公布
一、大陆各地人的智商分数
1.上海109
2.山东,江苏107
3.河北,北京,天津106
4.东北106
5.山西,安徽105
6.关中105
7.河南105
8.内蒙104
9.甘肃,宁夏,陕北103
10.浙江,新疆,青海103
11.福建103
12.湖南103
13.江西,重庆101
14.云,贵,川,陕南100
15.湖北100
16.广东100
17.广西,海南95
18.西藏85
二、其他地区华人的智商分数
香港107
新加坡105
台湾105
澳门104
中国的平均智商在105.与日本韩国类似.
三、其他国家国民智商
犹太人（110）、德国（107）、荷兰（107）、波兰（106）、瑞典（104）、意大利（102）、奥地利（101）、瑞士（101）、英国（100）、挪威（100）、比利时（99）、丹麦（99）、芬兰（99）、捷克（98）、匈牙利（98）、西班牙（98）、爱尔兰（97）、俄罗斯（96）、希腊（95）、法国（94）、保加利亚（94）、罗马尼亚（94）、土耳其（90）、塞尔维亚（89）。
日本、韩国（106）；美国、加拿大、澳大利亚和新西兰（100）；爱斯基摩人（91）；东南亚人（87）；美洲本土印地安人（87）；太平洋岛民（85）；拉美国家（85）；南亚、西亚、北非（84）；加勒比地区（70）；非洲撒哈拉沙漠以南地区（67）；澳洲原住民（62）；非洲西南部的喀拉哈里沙漠布希曼人（Bushmen）以及刚果雨林地区的匹格米人（Pygmies）54分。
作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-16 15:46
i maintain my opinion that hk’s success has more to do with good luck, head start and british influence than the trained up high IQ score bcoz of increased exposure.
pls dont put words into my mouth. by saying that i admitted my opinions are mainly based on intuition is a blatant false accusation and an insult to other readers’ intelligence, esp those who have tried to engage in a meaningful conversation here. my opinons are guided by intuition and i have tried to honour them with reasons based on facts from history and scientific exposure, even though i cant say they are all concrete without controversy. yes my intuition plays a big part but didnt i say it clearly that i value both intuition and reasoning hand in hand?
you dont have to dignify my ability by praying to God. God doesnt need to be told how to make his decision.
as to who is the one flogging the dead horse, i will leave that to others common sense of judgement.
i will come back to ur other points when time allows.
作者: friendlyguy 時間: 11-2-16 18:18 標題: 回覆 62# wicked 的文章
唉！本來唔想覆，因為睇唔到IQ同teaching medium 有何關係，但，你又睇D唔睇D。
廣東省兒童智商低於全國平均值
为什么广东8—10岁儿童智商会低于全国平均智商？為什麼廣東8—10歲兒童智商會低於全國平均智商？ 昨天（14日），中国地方病协会常务副会长陈吉祥在接受记者采访时提到，碘缺乏会对智力造成影响。昨天（14日），中國地方病協會常務副會長陳吉祥在接受記者採訪時提到，碘缺乏會對智力造成影響。 今天是全国第十三届“防治碘缺乏病日”宣传日，这次的活动主题是：“普及碘食盐十年，人口素质提高”。今天是全國第十三屆“防治碘缺乏病日”宣傳日，這次的活動主題是：“普及碘食鹽十年，人口素質提高”。
专家指出，影响智力的因素很多，碘缺乏引起的碘缺乏病是其中之一。專家指出，影響智力的因素很多，碘缺乏引起的碘缺乏病是其中之一。
世界卫生组织估计，缺碘所造成儿童智力损失5-20个智商，国内估计儿童损失10-15个百分点。世界衛生組織估計，缺碘所造成兒童智力損失5-20個智商，國內估計兒童損失10-15個百分點。
据了解，去年卫生部首次将智商纳入消除碘缺乏病监测的必测指标，对31个省份的37288例8-10岁儿童进行了智力测查，全国平均智商为103.5，处于正常水平。據了解，去年衛生部首次將智商納入消除碘缺乏病監測的必測指標，對31個省份的37288例8-10歲兒童進行了智力測查，全國平均智商為103.5，處於正常水平。 北京、上海和浙江等省的平均智商在110以上，而且高智商所占比例明显增加，与此同时，这些地区的平均碘盐覆盖率在94%以上。北京、上海和浙江等省的平均智商在110以上，而且高智商所佔比例明顯增加，與此同時，這些地區的平均碘鹽覆蓋率在94%以上。 海南、贵州、青海和宁夏4个省份的平均智商在95以下，而这些地区除碘缺乏病病情较严重外，非碘盐率也较高。海南、貴州、青海和寧夏4個省份的平均智商在95以下，而這些地區除碘缺乏病病情較嚴重外，非碘鹽率也較高。 监测结果显示，广东8-10岁儿童智商是101. 1.据介绍，广东早在2000年就已经实现消除碘缺乏病的阶段性目标，但据卫生部组织的全国消除碘缺乏病检测结果显示，广东从2004年开始出现大幅反弹，非碘盐率远超过10%，重新沦为不达标地区。監測結果顯示，廣東8-10歲兒童智商是101. 1.據介紹，廣東早在2000年就已經實現消除碘缺乏病的階段性目標，但據衛生部組織的全國消除碘缺乏病檢測結果顯示，廣東從2004年開始出現大幅反彈，非碘鹽率遠超過10%，重新淪為不達標地區。 特别是2005年，广东合格碘盐食用率跌至75.1%，重新沦为不达标地区，碘盐覆盖率跌至79.9%，为全国倒数第四，双双低于90%的国家标准，而8—10岁儿童的尿碘中位数低于50μɡ/L的比率也由2002年的5.9%下滑到了2005年的 12.5%.陈吉祥表示，目前广东没有一个地方不缺碘，只是缺碘的程度不同，粤西、粤北山区属于重度缺碘，沿海和珠三角部分地区属于轻度缺碘，其他地方则属于中度缺碘。特別是2005年，廣東合格碘鹽食用率跌至75.1%，重新淪為不達標地區，碘鹽覆蓋率跌至79.9%，為全國倒數第四，雙雙低於90%的國家標準，而8— 10歲兒童的尿碘中位數低於50μɡ/L的比率也由2002年的5.9%下滑到了2005年的12.5%.陳吉祥表示，目前廣東沒有一個地方不缺碘，只是缺碘的程度不同，粵西、粵北山區屬於重度缺碘，沿海和珠三角部分地區屬於輕度缺碘，其他地方則屬於中度缺碘。
据悉，最近几年，世界卫生组织和医学专家研究发现，碘元素是智力元素，碘缺乏最为严重的危害就是造成胚胎、婴幼儿、儿童的脑发育不良，造成不同程度的智力损害，而且这种损害是无法弥补的。據悉，最近幾年，世界衛生組織和醫學專家研究發現，碘元素是智力元素，碘缺乏最為嚴重的危害就是造成胚胎、嬰幼兒、兒童的腦發育不良，造成不同程度的智力損害，而且這種損害是無法彌補的。
编辑：吕剑編輯：呂劍
http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=124778185
I can only say that it is totally unnecessary and waste of time if we base on this to discuss the teaching medium of Hong Kong.
2006-8-18 16:59 2006-8-18 16:59 回复 回复
88.72.236.* 88.72.236.* 7楼 7樓
作者: friendlyguy 時間: 11-2-16 18:32
If you want to discuss the reason for Hong Kong's success, please open another thread!
原帖由 wicked 於 11-2-16 15:46 發表
i maintain my opinion that hk’s success has more to do with good luck, head start and british influence than the trained up high IQ score bcoz of increased exposure.
pls dont put words into my mout ...
作者: stccmc 時間: 11-2-16 21:21
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作者: annie40 時間: 11-2-18 17:23
碘鹽丰富的食物包括纯海盐, 海藻, 海带等....
这里带出一个奇怪情况, 广东省不算贫瘠, 何以会出现碘鹽覆蓋率大幅落后于北京、上海和浙江地区, 是广东省食品, 生活习惯, 煮食方法 存在严重问题吗?
我家已改吃天然海盐,天然蔗糖佷久矣. 因为现在一般的盐和糖是纯chemical 产物, 无碘无营养无 mineral ,
有些盐写上有碘,是人做添加碘, 人体难以吸取. 大家或可作一点小改变.
广东从2004年开始出现大幅反弹，非碘盐率远超过10%，重新沦为不达标地区。監測結果顯示，廣東8-10歲兒童智商是101. 1
北京、上海和浙江等省的平均智商在110以上，而且高智商所佔比例明顯增加，與此同時，這些地區的平均碘鹽覆蓋率在94%以上
原帖由 friendlyguy 於 11-2-16 18:18 發表
唉！本來唔想覆，因為睇唔到IQ同teaching medium 有何關係，但，你又睇D唔睇D。
廣東省兒童智商低於全國平均值
为什么广东8—10岁儿童智商会低于全国平均智商？為什麼廣東8—10歲兒童智商會低於全國平均智商？ 昨天（14日），中国 ...
作者: cow 時間: 11-2-19 15:18
原帖由 annie40 於 11-2-18 17:23 發表
我家已改吃天然海盐,天然蔗糖佷久矣. 因为现在一般的盐和糖是纯chemical 产物, 无碘无营养无 mineral ,
有些盐写上有碘,是人做添加碘, 人体难以吸取. 大家或可作一点小改变.
大部份海鹽都冇碘, 食物安全中心聯同食物環境衞生署合作測試市面上預先包裝和散裝食鹽, 是次測試所選取 的59個預先包裝食鹽樣本中，只有3個產品標明為碘化食鹽；至於其他未有標明為碘化食鹽的產品中，只有1個含少量碘質，含量為每千克鹽1.7 毫克，相信並非製造商額外添加，可能是天然存在於食鹽中。至於15個散裝食鹽樣本，全部均沒有發現含碘質。
人類主要從飲食中吸收身體所需的碘質，亦可透過進食添加了碘質的食鹽來攝取 。海魚、海藻及其他海產可提供豐富的碘質，食用動物衍生而來的食品如奶、蛋、肉類等亦可是碘質的來源。此外，在碘質含量豐富的土壤上種植的蔬菜，亦是碘質的膳食來源。
http://www.cfs.gov.hk/tc_chi/programme/programme_rafs/programme_rafs_fci_0101.html
作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-19 16:40
先说点题外话. 网上行文其实is very telling about ones’ ego. i m tempted to profile an interesting attention seeker who is pathetically神经质，文笔夸张做作，不放弃任何表现涵养背景机会，大有满腔情怀要向空气倾诉之态，不知是否因此导致脑子里充斥太多空气，线路不畅，以致前言不对后语或言行相距千里：不时感慨卑微出身，往来却仿如名门大家; 才忙不迭地自谦很懒无知愚钝，下文即有慷慨的指点批示接踵而来，论坛举目可见其大名.
这本是可怜之人，现实生活中可能少有知心说话的朋友，才会出此病态而不自知，本该包容，但见其老是讨嫌，给其下下面子没准算个提点，以后或会少点丢份出格的行当.
作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-19 16:45
i m finally enlightened: guangdong and hainan, being a southern coastal province and an ocean island, where sea food resources are expected to contribute more to diet than inland places, could actually suffer more from iodine deficiency than inland places, despite sea food is well known as a major source of iodine. and such iodine deficiency accounts for the lower IQ scores in guangdong and hainan than inland places like 山西,安徽, 河南, 内蒙, 甘肃,宁夏,陕北, 新疆,青海. but how could ppl in these inland places get more share of iodine if even coastal places cant get enough?
iodine deficiency could also well be the main culprit for the low IQ in tropical coastal regions like 东南亚（87）；太平洋岛（85）；加勒比地区（70), despite its well known that ppl in these places depend on the oceans for food. how to increase their intake of iodine if sea food still cant do the trick? -- a big challenge for scientists.
low IQ scores have nothing to do with genetic disadvantage. to associate intelligence with genetic make-up is simply too racist and too wicked.
作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-19 17:04
to continue my reply to friendly guy’s older post.
i was born, raised and educated in the mainland. but my birthplace has nothing to do with this argument. my opinion is not based on where i m from.
ok i didnt read into that much detail about north korea’s data as u. but why would they make such an estimation(same as south korea)? the writers probably can be considered as experts in the relevant field. could it be they also think becoz genetically north koreans are the closest to south koreans thus rendering their IQ in the similar range despite the exposure ppl have had in the two placess could differ much in the last 1/2 century? be that the case, their view is of no big difference from mine: gene matters more than exposure in intelligence.
i cant say u r all wrong about hybrid. but pls go and get some read on hybrid vigor and reverse hybrid vigor. they are considered biological common sense. talking of defects, genetic defects are often presented thru physical defects which appear less pleasant to eyes. thats a manifestation of “look matters”.
u r right,no one really thinks about courting so calculatingly becoz love is more of intuition at work and intuition is of a less self-aware process than reasoning. i was merely trying to rationalize why our intuition works in a way like “有錢了，娶個漂亮媳婦...改良品種乃天經地義之事” -- but if this could make u laugh to death, that says a lot about not just ur sense of judgement but also ur incapability of humour. i m the least surprised. sense of humour, a product of intelligence(innate) and exposure, is a more refined quality of personality. those who lack it either cant appreciate humour or easily make a fool out of themselves by cracking at a wrong situation. as far as my life is concerned, i think u can save ur pity for urself.
do u really think that i genuinely dont see the flaw in “if u know what is aspirin, u must be an expert in medicine? “ it was merely my wicked allowance so as to highlight the wastefulness of over education. i couldnt believe it that u would be mentioning “ I believe in 見微知著” just after the display of incompetence in comprehending the extrapolation in the NBA player’s case. u r probably the only reader here who had watched the programme, and apparently even with a fair amount of training in science (judging by ur jargon droppings and obsession with high scientific standard). education can empower ppl but only if provided with good senses.
“Tall people are not energy efficient unless they are fat.” -- another pointless repeat. being tall is more energy efficient than short if the other body conditions remain the same (such as fat/body size ratio). pls stop insulting ur own sense of judgement again by assuming jargon dropping would add weight to ur argument. nouveau riche is usually associated with wealth but i think this term can apply for over educated nerd too. in my opinion, those who flaunt adademic jargons or prestigious educational background are of no big difference from those who flaunt their hard cash thru LV bags and obnoxious designer logos. only ppl lack in substance would resort to vanity of such sorts.
by ur reasoning, energy efficiency is only needed in the old days. nowadays, finding food is easy so no need to be energy efficient. i cant help laughing at myself at this point. i have to despise myself to have allowed myself into this: being patronized with a lesson about “finding food is a matter of life and death”. looking back, i was right to have taken u lightly at the first encounter.
i have less regard for aesthetic values that cant stand the test of time. thick lips are usually associated with lust, which is why sexy. i dont know if being lustful is a well-regarded trait in the direction of civilization. i actually think those who prefer a pair of thick lips must have a less evolved aesthetic sense and are more obessed with biological desire thus more animal-like. i doubt how many girls would prefer “twin sausage lips” over small cherry-like lips.
作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-19 17:10
hk’s success is relevant in this discussion. hk’s economic affluence in the last 50yrs might have presented a false impression that hk’s success is factored by cantonese culture and thus the continued adoption of cantonese as the teaching medium despite the obvious inefficiency(due to the inconsistancy between the spoken and written form) and the rest of the chinese communities have been teaching in mandarin for decades.
do try to extend ur sense of history by a longer timeline backward before the british intervened, despite of >2000yrs of township history, have there been much cantonese cultural legacy worth mentioning in chiense history or cultural relics worth visiting in the cantonese area?
its against good sense and effectiveness to learn the chinese language via a backward dialect(cantonese) when a far better and easier option(mandarin) is available.
i dont know if any similar view point as mine (from the perspective of evolution in terms of efficiency and aesthetic regard) has been raised against cantonese as a teaching medium. most of the discussions in this thread are relevant to evolution, including IQ data. IQ data by country, albeit with all the controversy, is probably the only scientific info one could refer to at this point to illustrate a pattern of man’s mental evolution. mental evolution is what differentiate us the most from the other creatures. look and intelligence are the two key elements in our consideration of finding the other half. its logical to assume an association between the two. but since look concerns aesthetics and intelligence also involves intuition, while both aesthetics and intuition are still(if not ever) beyond science’s reach, to define the association thru science is tempting but probably will never become an easy and concrete reality like plotting one’s height against weight.
作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-21 12:43
for the dimwitted, what ever u said is fine with me as long as that can give a lift to ur under developed body and mind. 君子有成人之美, 我非君子 but always try to be generous with charity spirit towards the disadvantaged.
作者: wicked 時間: 11-2-23 12:24
我无意浪费精力在没意义的争论上，特别是那种不自量力的故意挑衅。
我提议普通话取替广东话并不是基于分化的动机，正相反，是希望通过语言的统一增进融合，并减少资源浪费，属正能量投放。两千年前秦始皇统一书写文字，从维系国家以后的统一，减少冲突和维护文化的传承和互融的角度看，是一大功劳。同期的罗马帝国覆盖地中海欧洲，面积比中国更大，但这两千年间分化成欧洲几十个国家，与拼音文字易变导致语言分化有很大关系。语言的最根本目的是为了沟通，语言不同就增加沟通成本，属变相浪费。圣经里不是有babel的故事吗？
我从进化的角度提出观点，是有感早前闹得沸沸腾腾的捍卫广州话运动中的一些观点的荒谬，譬如，广州话含有最多古音，更接近唐代的官话，所以更优雅；广州话不属方言，因为联合国教科文赋予广州话cantonese的国际称谓，这是其他中国方言不可相比的；广东是经济大省，比其他省份富裕，还有香港的国际地位，都证明了岭南文化的优越性，所以更应该通过发扬广州话，传播岭南文化。
一位在深圳从事人事招聘工作的面试过不少到深圳找工作的香港大学毕业生，他其中一个评价：英语不行那就算了，普通话说成那样也敢过来和大陆人争饭碗。要知道在深圳五星酒店的中层管理人员的起薪才不过3000。不知道这有几位父母知道深圳的人口在过去30年的变化，我听说在深圳的外省人比广东人要多得多，有兴趣的自己网上查一下。这是我略看过的一个链接。
http://blog.icxo.com/read.jsp?aid=55815
一个先后在复旦和加拿大UBC待过的内地人，现在中大念MBA，香港有投资银行请他，深圳也有银行请他，他选择了深圳，其中一个原因是语言，他说香港作为一个与国际最接轨的中国城市，被标签先进和愿意接受新思维，竟然选择一个口语与书面语不一致的落后方言作为官方语言，回归后依然，可见决策者之不智和缺乏远见及大局观。实话说，缺乏大局观是香港人给我的一个突出观感，这或与香港的独特历史有关。
我知道我的观点不中听，但我还是选择把话说明白：在大中华的背景下，继续选择用广东话教学有如作茧自缚，牺牲的是下一代的竞争力。its the inconvenient truth. 被当作是先撩人x or y也罢，于我无损。且看香港与深圳之间的关卡能cushion香港多久。
作者: edea 時間: 11-2-23 13:32
因為有人不滿而舉報, 版主可以做的是終止這個討論, 大家再討論別的題材吧.
尊重, 嘲諷, 前者讓人舒服, 後者讓人不安.
希望大家多想一想.
edea
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