教育王國

標題: No Cantonese in RC pl pl pl [打印本頁]

作者: yeung2212 時間: 09-11-10 22:30 標題: No Cantonese in RC pl pl pl

My sons are studying in RC for 2 yrs.
We felt very exciting when they just switched to RC.

But now, I feel very disappointing.
When I walk through the school. all the students are speaking Cantonese in the canteen, playground or office. We will not think this is an IS. It just is a local school with foreigers as teachers only.

I ask my sons what language they have used at school. They said all students are communicate with Cantonese except those foreigners. My sons either afraid speak English out of school and can't speak English as fluent as other ESF students.

Other parents told me that the principal doesn't ban to use Chinese at school. I don't believe as I know other ESF school has banned their students to communicate in Chinese at school except in Chinese lesson.

Therefore, I send an e mail to the principal to state my concern. He has replied me this.

" We will never ban students from using their first language whether it is Chinese or Hebrew. To do this would be contrary to our Mission and philosophy."

Now I am thinking I have two choices only.
One is change another IS (but this is not my will).
Second, is to join other parents to state our concern about the use of language at school.

RC parents, do you have my concern?
Pl join together and give your opinion to school.

[ 本帖最後由 yeung2212 於 09-11-10 22:52 編輯 ]

作者: minggrace 時間: 09-11-10 23:55

I'm not a RC parent but I'm shocked to hear that. I also plan to apply for RC for my kid who is now studying in another international school
as I live in Ma On Shan. But if that's the case, I'll let my kid stay at his current IS for two more years in order to build a better foundation before going to RC for the secondary school. Well, RC is my target secondary school; I really hope the situation of using Cantonese can be improved.

作者: emmamay 時間: 09-11-11 11:57

That's strange. My girl also studies in ESF (HK side), but I notice that all the students at school communicate in English only. Even the Chinese kids too. In fact, I am trying to encourage my girl to talk more in Cantanoese.

作者: Pianokc 時間: 09-11-11 12:03

this depends highly on the school. The ones in HK side will have more foreigners, while RC has become a very popular school among local chinese.

作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-11 12:06

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作者: alima 時間: 09-11-11 12:23 標題: 回覆 1# yeung2212 的文章

If u don't like this, u can change school, I think some RC parents should be know RC is difference with other ESF, their Chinese teaching should be more, but I also feel their English skill also very good, they can change 2 way, that's very great.

作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-11 12:30

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作者: Onsen 時間: 09-11-11 12:44

RC is really set up to take the local students who may otherwise apply to the formal ESF schools. I took a head counts of my child's class photo last night, out of the 30 students, only 6 or 7 are Asians that include Japanese, Korean, Indian and Chinese kids from the US and the UK with a majority of 23 to 24 are Caucasians. None from local catagory 2 Hong Kongers. In fact, my kid is the only one who can speak Cantonese and Mandarin. Besides, RC can only take kids with permanent Hong Kong residency (at least 70%) with some space to non-residents.

But then is this what most parents' want, fluent in English and Chinese? I am seriously thinking whether RC is better for my kid, even if I have to move.

[ 本帖最後由 Onsen 於 09-11-11 13:32 編輯 ]

作者: almom 時間: 09-11-11 13:08

I am quite surprised that there are still that many parents that equate the ability to speak Chinese to the in-ability to speak English.
Can people be good at both?
(Sorry, I lost interest in most RC topics a long time ago. But now that it's interview season again, I couldn't help but to vent my views. May be it is good to raise this again so that parents can think hard before accepting any offers.)

作者: almom 時間: 09-11-11 13:20

原帖由 wisekid2007 於 09-11-11 12:30 發表
If RC continues to develop under such policy, RC is becoming just an EMI school. It makes no different with those EMI local schools.

Of course, many people may prefer this.

With the differences in curriculum and teaching etc, I do not see why it would be the same as a local school.
Lots of local schools have language policy prohibiting the use of Chinese on campus, does that make them an international school?

The language policy in ESF schools was probably not set up to improve English skills. ESF children are fluent in English with or without the policy. The policy has been awhile for very long, even when I was a student. My cousins were in one of the ESF schools and they felt that the policy was merely to prohibit languages that the English speaking staff did not understand.

In any case, I am not coming back to "discuss" further about RC. Obviously, parents do have different needs. And I am probably "too stupid" to reply to your messages. If labelling RC a EMI local school would make parents happy, do so.

作者: 琬晴B 時間: 09-11-11 13:49

My daughter is in RC Year 1. I DID notice this situation (a couple of Year One students that I met spoke Cantonese) when I took the school tour with my daughter last year. I was crystal clear that the school did not have a strict English-ONLY-in-school-PLEASE policy.

What I think is, since RC is an English-medium school (like many other IS), all students should speak English (except Chinese lessons) during classes. However, when it comes to “playground language”, I do not mind if they speak Cantonese (or Hebrew, haha...). I think it’s quite natural to use the language they feel easy to communicate and mingle. Having said that, they should use the common language (e.g. English) when there are people of other nationalities around in order not to exclude others (from IB Learner Profile, "They understand and express ideas and information confidently and creatively in more than one language and in a variety of modes of communication.")

My daughter is having great progress in English after joining RC. (Her previous school is good too but we decided to move to the New Territories.) She recites the rhymes and expresses herself in English more confidently. She even drew an “I Love You” card to a Year One English-speaking Asian schoolmate (which I secretly kept it). She is more than happy to speak English to strangers too. I also went to her classmate’s birthday party. Cantonese was not frequently used by her classmates. Even the clown/magician had to switch to English because he felt the majority was speaking English.

RC adopts an open-door policy and welcomes parents to be volunteers. If parents are doubtful with their children’s progress, they may volunteer in class and have a peek.

I went to 3-way-goal Conference (Parent-Teacher-Student meeting) with my daughter in Oct and met a Chinese-looking girl in canteen. She was around 9-10 years old and spoke fluent English. NOT ALL students in canteen speak Cantonese.

I remember a number of RC parents explained the admission policy regarding "HK permanent resident ". (From RC website, "At capacity, at least 70% of the total students enrolled in RCHK must have at least one parent who qualifies for Hong Kong Permanent Resident status.) I am not sure whether RC reaches its capacity yet. Not to mention that many expats become Hong Kong permanents residents and many Hong Kongers hold foreign passports. So permanent residents does not necessarily = HK locals.

http://occ.ibo.org/ibis/documents/general/g_0_iboxx_amo_0804_1_e.pdf
“Language is integral to identity, which in turn determines how a person will act. A mother tongue and any other languages used in constructing meaning are intimately connected to a person’s relationship with the world and how they come to feel about that world. Social and emotional conditions for learning that value all languages and cultures and affirm the identity of each learner promote self-esteem and additive bilingualism (where another language and culture does not replace that of the mother tongue).”

Language Policy @RCHK:
http://www.renaissance.edu.hk/uploaded_files/RCHK%20Language%20Policy%20Committee%20final%20version%203%20May071179878400.doc

“Research indicates that students’ level of language and literacy competence in their first language influences their rate of second language learning. The development of a student’s first language is, therefore, not only of value to the student’s identity and community but also to the student’s education.”

作者: Pianokc 時間: 09-11-11 14:00

I don't think it's the language that really bothers me as a parent, I don't care what language is used on the playground either. However, it's the curriculum and academic standards that bothers me.

作者: oooray 時間: 09-11-11 14:13

Conclusion:
Do not send your children to RC if you are either one of the followings:
1. Anticipate 100% English environment during school hours;
2. Proud of having many non-Chinese classmates/parents;
3. Do not like this school.

作者: 琬晴B 時間: 09-11-11 14:18

Very concise. Thank you, oooray!!

原帖由 oooray 於 09-11-11 14:13 發表
Conclusion:
Do not send your children to RC if you are either one of the followings:
1. Anticipate 100% English environment during school hours;
2. Proud of having many non-Chinese classmates/parents; ...

作者: Onsen 時間: 09-11-11 14:52

Is it possible to move to RC from another ESF school? Can anyone share with this experience? Since Chinese languauge level must be higher than the regular one, would that cause any problem? I tried to apply for DGJS because of Chinese but failed. May be this is a good option.

作者: oooray 時間: 09-11-11 15:23

原帖由 Onsen 於 09-11-11 14:52 發表
Is it possible to move to RC from another ESF school? Can anyone share with this experience? Since Chinese languauge level must be higher than the regular one, would that cause any problem? I tried ...

i guess there is no secret path other than submiting an application form and then line up at the end of the queue.
From RC website, u can see that many year levels have closed the application until Jan 2010 (due to a long waiting list already there).
It is be unfair to those on waiting list if any secret path within ESF schools.
Of course, it is only my wildguess only. call for school directly for the truth.

作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-11 16:03

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作者: Onsen 時間: 09-11-11 17:23

原帖由 oooray 於 09-11-11 15:23 發表

i guess there is no secret path other than submiting an application form and then line up at the end of the queue.
From RC website, u can see that many year levels have closed the application until J ...

Not true! It is easy to do the internal transfer from one ESF to another provided the change of catchment area. I did that before. All it took was just a phone call and the ESF did all the paper work. However, you may be correct with RC or DC that they do not consider this is an internal transfer.

Just visited the ESF new website. They have indeed separated the primary, secondary and the PIP schools. On RC, it says, "Although the College will use English as the medium for teaching and learning, the curriculum will have a very strong emphasis on Chinese language and culture. All students will study Putonghua and Standard Chinese." Well, that is very tempting. I should take a look at this wonderful school later.

[ 本帖最後由 Onsen 於 09-11-11 17:31 編輯 ]

作者: strayteddy 時間: 09-11-11 19:03

ooray is right. A move from ESF schools to RC or vice versa is not considered an internal transfer. That's what I was told in their briefing sessions.

作者: yeung2212 時間: 09-11-11 22:24

Thanks for both of your reply.
I think there are many reasons why the parents send their children to IS.
For me, just simply, I want my child can speak fluent English. If an IS can't provide an English environment to the students and their students can't speak fluent English, this school is an local English school only.

When my son had studied in local school before, he had the private tutor for English. But now, he still needs the private tutor for English. This is my unexpected result.

I have called other ESF school today, they said that they can't do the internal transfer as RC is PIP. I feel very very disappointing and sad.
After discussing with my husband, we have reached a dicision. We will help my younger son to switch to other IS as soon as possible.

作者: rach_mama 時間: 09-11-12 01:47

Anyone knows if the same thing what yeung2212 happening at DC? It's kind weird that there are not lot of ppl talk about DC here even at other forum.

I wonder why???

作者: WYmom 時間: 09-11-12 07:14

原帖由 rach_mama 於 09-11-12 01:47 發表
Anyone knows if the same thing what yeung2212 happening at DC? It's kind weird that there are not lot of ppl talk about DC here even at other forum.

I wonder why???

DC is very different from RC, it is originally ESF Bauhinia School, most students come from Discovery Bay, most of them are foreigners (I guess over 70%). So students naturally speak English all the time. In all other ESF schools, students speak English all the time naturally even among local Chinese students. This is naturally the culture followed for many years. RC was set up by 2006 to accomodate more local Chinese students and put higher focus in Chinese, so it is different from other ESF schools in culture.

There are a lot more people talking about RC in BK forum naturally because BK is a forum more for local Chinese parents. DC parents normally won't come to BK. They discuss more in their expat's forum.

[ 本帖最後由 WYmom 於 09-11-12 07:19 編輯 ]

作者: nintendo 時間: 09-11-12 13:14

As far as I know, both RC and DC are the same. They are both PIS and are not exactly like other ESF schools. The curriculum of RC and DC are basically the same and in fact DC is simply a smaller version of RC. These school are both set up to help ease the demand of ESF places. I do not care where the kids are from but technically, DC and RC are the same. Not ESF schools, but PIS managed by ESF.
The main difference would non-chinese population. Because of the location, DC has much much more non-local students than RC.
But when you look at traditional ESF schools too, we have the same thing. KGV and WIS or SIS are very different. And STC is probably something in between.
Most western people chose to live on the island, then areas like Tai Po and Sai Kung. So that explains why there are more western kids in STC than KGV too. According to when I see KGV actually have the most local chinese, in fact even more than RC. But KGV is more strict on their language policy, and students are forced to use English only.

作者: Annie123 時間: 09-11-17 11:21

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作者: gentlemanhk 時間: 09-11-17 15:23 標題: 回覆 11# 琬晴B 的文章

Agreed. I don't understand why people would equate allowing non-English playground language to not providing English environment. To me, enough is enough.

My girl is in RC Y1 and just within a few months now, her progress on English as well as other learning development are extremely pleasing. Our observations during various social activities are that many kids do speak both English (with other local kids) and Cantonese during play time. They switch easily to English when talking to the teachers and other English speaking kids. The home room teacher is also very caring and serious about the kids' English communication skills.

Even the school is imposing an English only policy, we, being a Cantonese speaking family, just couldn't stop our kids from speaking Cantonese anyway (they talk to their grand parents, their neighbors, other learning activities...etc.). If we want our kids to be a native English speaker within a couple of years, sending them to other IS may not be enough, we'd better send them abroad and avoid staying with the Chinese community.

作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-17 15:43

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作者: iamfine 時間: 09-11-17 15:58

I don't understand why people would equate allowing non-English playground language to not providing English environment.

I know it's cliché to say different people have different needs. The fact is some people do feel the need to put their kids in an exclusively English environment to feel comfortable. To them, for some very strange reasons, a prefect English accent matters. Also, this group of persons, of Chinese origin, not conversant with Western and Chinese cultures though, for some reasons that I don't understand always have high regard for English but not Chinese. May someone who knows Vygotsky's cultural-historical theory better explain to me their bias for English? Shall I have pity with them or simply call them nut?

[ 本帖最後由 iamfine 於 09-11-17 16:02 編輯 ]

作者: oooray 時間: 09-11-17 16:14

原帖由 iamfine 於 09-11-17 15:58 發表

I know it's cliché to say different people have different needs. The fact is some people do feel the need to put their kids in an exclusively English environment to feel comfortable. To them, for ...

Don't call them nut.
They just defense their faith; just what we are doing.

作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-17 16:21

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作者: iamfine 時間: 09-11-17 16:23

原帖由 oooray 於 09-11-17 16:14 發表

Don't call them nut.
They just defense their faith; just what we are doing.

Agree. No problem from this end if you call it a faith. Life is so full of random coincidence. I've just finished reading Karen Armstrong's the History of God as this question of faith arises. ;)

作者: tingtingting 時間: 09-11-17 16:30

Point noted but no need to be sarcastic.

作者: iamfine 時間: 09-11-17 17:31

I admit I'm being sarcastic (sometimes) but am absolutely gutted by those Mr and Mrs. Knowlittle who are too keen to worship English and belittle Chinese. Me too favour international schools' way of teaching. Both of my children did not spend a single day in a local school but that does not give me the right to pretend that I'm the holder of absolute truth and condemn all the students in local schools and their parents to hell. It's just plain silly to think that there is only one way to heaven. Hearing them call themselves open-minded and "Westernized" (whatever it means to them) makes me feel sick.

作者: highfive 時間: 09-11-17 17:42 標題: 回覆 1# iamfine 的文章

Very well said!

作者: gentlemanhk 時間: 09-11-17 18:06 標題: 回覆 26# wisekid2007 的文章

In many local EMI schools, although lessons are taught in English, the teachers are not necessarily native English speakers and indeed, most of them are not. The teaching approaches are also way different.

作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-17 18:15

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作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-17 18:27

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作者: gentlemanhk 時間: 09-11-17 19:10 標題: 回覆 35# wisekid2007 的文章

I respect your view on a total English environment. No offense but it's just that when you use local EMI schools to support your view and said that "it is exactly the reason...", you have ignored other critical factors, so making it an apple to non apple comparison in my opinion.

Just to share, one of my colleagues was from a local EMI school. She speaks both English and Cantonese at native level. She continued her education in UK though after finished her secondary school.

作者: hhy2007 時間: 09-11-17 20:12

Every school has high performers and low performers.

Yeung2212:  Based on your description, I'm afraid your son may just be one of those low performers in RC.  You may blame RC for not enforcing the English-only policy in school, however, does it ever occur to you that even if RC enforced such policy, you son might still have a slow progress if he is lack of his own initiatives to use English to communicate whenever possible.  In fact, you should feel lucky that your son was accepted by RC two years ago, considering the fact that it would be very hard for your son to be accepted by other IS if your son's English is below his year-level expectation.

Please don't feel offended here.  I just feel that sometimes we parents want truth, but unfortunately, we actually can not handle the truth.  The truth we don’t want to face is that our kids are not outstanding but as normal as the kids next door.  Out kids need time to make a big progress.  Of course, we have right to ask the school to do something, however, it is our kids’ own initiatives that can make a real difference.

作者: iamfine 時間: 09-11-17 23:03

Quiz of the night: who on earth would take English, a language so easy, so seriously?

作者: iamfine 時間: 09-11-17 23:05

Quiz of the night no.2: How would you call a Japanese who looks down upon the Japanese language or culture, or a German who cares more about English than German?

作者: iamfine 時間: 09-11-17 23:09

Quiz of the night no.3: How would you call a person who ...

OK, I skip this one, ... for peace.

作者: iamfine 時間: 09-11-17 23:30

What's wrong about EMI schools? I graduated from a local EMI school and never went abroad to study. Not any gweilo dares say a thing about my English, spoken or written, or challenge my knowledge of the Western world. It may well be that the one sitting next to me speaks the King's English. So what? Once we start discussing the debate between Ferguson and Farrow, he shuts up. I am not pretending to be big or knowledgeable. Who am I? I am just one of the countless many who manage to survive the local system and thrive. The point is, you have no right to call yourself an open-minded person. You are not. You just narrow-mindedly believe in something fixated in your mind as a result of your own limitation. If getting admitted to GSIS or going to a so-called top U is such a big deal to you, fine. Go for it. But we are not on the level and I'd better leave you with your own clan. The world is a much bigger place. Pity that you don't know. By the way, I don't feel offended that you call yourself "westernised" - after all I am not a westerner.

作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-18 10:18

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作者: Reximom 時間: 09-11-18 11:17

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作者: Onsen 時間: 09-11-18 11:22

Relax! Don't get excited.

[ 本帖最後由 Onsen 於 09-11-18 11:39 編輯 ]

作者: oooray 時間: 09-11-18 11:34

原帖由 Onsen 於 09-11-18 11:22 發表
Relax! Don't get offended if someone doesn't like your school and asked for the transfer. What it matters is just that person's need, not yours.

Initially, I do like RC for its emphasis on Chines ...

Relax too. No all spokers here are RC parents. ( but I am).
Relax again. There are hundred thousands scary parents in Hong Kong (I'm one of the pack) , in either local or International (Real or so-called) Schools. U will have no place to dodge.

作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-18 11:47

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作者: Onsen 時間: 09-11-18 12:14

Parents, it is not just the language of English. Many maids in HK speak very good English. It is the attitude toward life, respect of other people's differences, and a great passion for learning that are more important. If you can lead a child to a wonderful world of learning based on his initiative then you can considered yourself a success. The only problem for local school is that the force from school and parents to learn through the textbooks, to dictate, to compete, to get ahead of others really loss the sight of education. If English is so great, then Singapore will the at the top of the world. But in reality? Will you send your kids to Singapore or for that matter, Phillipine for education even they will all be able to speak good English? If one wants his child's mind fourish and growth, and be an intelligent and open-minded person, the US, UK or some EU countries' would be a better bet. I said a better bet does not mean that they are better than our local schools. I am sure many top EMS are much better academically. We just want to have an envrionment to foster this kind of intellectual growth in a child. If we can't send our kids to the western world, then international schools with good teachers and principals may do the trick. Isn't it what we are doing it now?

[ 本帖最後由 Onsen 於 09-11-18 12:17 編輯 ]

作者: popolung 時間: 09-11-18 13:08

Sorry to step in RC discussion again. But want parents to look at IB structure. They encourage daul language and this is a requirement in IB, so not surprisingly to see that the principal will not ban children from speaking cantonese.

Take a look at this in IB website too:
http://www.ibo.org/general/iblanguagepolicy.cfm

作者: oooray 時間: 09-11-18 13:45

否定別人便是成功之道?
自己成功=別人失敗?
當信主耶穌您和您家人必得救?
順我者昌，逆我者亡?
是弱者之道還是強者之道，請自行(了/判)斷!
善哉善哉...

作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-18 14:15

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作者: popolung 時間: 09-11-18 23:11

原帖由 wisekid2007 於 09-11-18 14:15 發表
Sorry to ask you some questions and I am not intend to offend.

What is the relationship of the link you quoted with regard the language policy (i.e. not ban the speaking of Cantonese) adopted by RC? ...

1. RC is the first (if I am not wrong) to adopt IB since they established few years ago, so they mindset to use daul language is very clear.

2. Other like SC are moving from GCE to IB, so I think they still need sometimes to adjust from English language environment to dual language mode

Just my wild guess. I think is no harm to let them speak both language and so they can learn good english but maintain a good mother tongue too.

作者: WYmom 時間: 09-11-19 09:31

原帖由 popolung 於 09-11-18 23:11 發表

1. RC is the first (if I am not wrong) to adopt IB since they established few years ago, so they mindset to use daul language is very clear.

2. Other like SC are moving from GCE to IB, so I think t ...

SC was the first IB school among ESF, it has IBD program for 5 to 6 years (don't remember exactly). RC was established in 2006 as a full IB school.

As far as I know, there is no dual language policy in SC or in other ESF schools, whether they are using IB or not.  There is no need to adjust any change to dual language.

I see that students will speak in language naturally with their peer groups they used to be.  As most students come from different ethical groups, they naturally communicate in English.

RC is somewhat different from other ESF schools as it has the "niche" of putting more resources in Chinese, particularly standard Chinese to meet the demand of local Chinese parents.  So there is no problem with speaking in mother tongue.

[ 本帖最後由 WYmom 於 09-11-19 09:55 編輯 ]

作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-19 10:28

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作者: 畢學武 時間: 09-11-19 11:01

Hi wisekid2007,

''However, the best way to achieve native spoken level of both languages is to foster a total unique language environment for at least 5 to 6 hours a day.''

真的是這樣嗎？你有沒有什麼學術研究支持呢？你可否quote reference呢？

我不是挑戰你，我祇是想學習吧！

作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-19 11:10

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作者: oooray 時間: 09-11-19 11:22

原帖由 wisekid2007 於 09-11-19 11:10 發表
I saw a reseach article a few year ago (forgot where it came from) that if a young kid can be immersed in a total language environment for at least 5 to 6 hours a day, the learning/practising time wil ...

Hi wisekid2007,
Theoretically, I agree to your viewpoint.
U have find a right school for your son implementing 100% English school environment...but i'm curious to know whether your son will be chit-chatting in Cantonese at school quietly/secretly and another Cantonese-Speaking friend come across?

作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-19 11:34

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作者: Pianokc 時間: 09-11-19 12:09

wise2007's comments make sense, because think about it, when one goes overseas for education, the child will pick up the local language much faster because? You are forced to speak that language and listen to that language all the time, and while children are young, they can learn languages (multiple) very fast at rapid speed.

Hence, to duplicate the same effect, where the kid goes to school in HK, if English is always spoken and heard, they will pick up the language like "native" IF the teachers and school environment can provide this atmosphere.

Just my two cents.

作者: iamfine 時間: 09-11-19 12:26

For those students who have to rely on school to learn native spoken English, it would be very essential for them to have a total English environment

I somehow agree to the above. So, if your kids happen to be one of those WHO HAVE TO rely on their schools to learn a thing, listen to the wise one.

作者: oooray 時間: 09-11-19 12:32

原帖由 wisekid2007 於 09-11-19 11:34 發表
My boy is a very honest boy. He said to me that there were in fact a few times at school (a few times for the whole period but not a few times per day) during the recess time that there has been one o ...

Different parents have different anticipations. Some will be proud of 100% English speaking children but some will be afraid of that (it will be a little bit odd when the rest of their relatives are Cantonese Speaking).
I think RC policy can meet most Hong Kong Chinese families' need (admission policies make Hong Kong Chinese family as the majority in RC) and provide a flexible environment for children growing up.
As i mentioned before, parents looking for 100% English enivronment, please think twice before accepting RC offer.
RC parents who disliking the current language policy should consider other better alternatives. I think your goal will be much easier to achieve rather than blaming the school not meeting your demand.

作者: Reximom 時間: 09-11-19 12:33

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作者: iamfine 時間: 09-11-19 12:40

My dear neighbour above, please give me a break and feel free not to say yes to my post. Thank you very much.

作者: wisekid2007 時間: 09-11-19 12:45

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歡迎光臨教育王國 (/)