教育王國
標題: ESF有可能改善嗎? [打印本頁]
作者: 阿胡 時間: 09-4-4 23:56 標題: ESF有可能改善嗎?
每年4月, 都是美國大學放榜時間.
香港的主要幾間國際學校的學生, 許多都以美國大學為目標. 很明顯, 各間學校學生的結果不盡相同. 特別是HKIS, CIS和ESF的結果比較, 對家長選校很有幫助, 有時甚至是決定性的.
因為基本上是以美國大學為目標, HKIS的college
counseling最早且已經很成熟了, 完全知道美國大學招生的遊戲規則. CIS成立較晚, 開始時並無專職的college counselor. 聽說幾年前開始聘請專業college counselor了, 這幾年的結果有目共睹.
至於ESF, 像STC和KGV, 儘管最好的學生可以和HKIS, CIS有得一比, 但平均結果與後者是有明顯差別的. 當然, 一種說法是HKIS, CIS收的學費貴, 可以有能力幫助學生升好大學. 但仔細想來又不盡然. 香港也有學費貴的其他學校, 但結果比ESF還要差.
ESF中學升學不盡如意, 可能有好多原因:
1. 學生較雜, 好差都有;
2. 學校無財力幫助學生;
3. 學校不重視;
4. 學校不熟悉美國大學招生的遊戲規則;
5. 老師不熟悉美國文化, 學生推薦信過於保守.
等等.
想過來想過去, 都覺得ESF學校要負很大責任. Baby-Kingdom有許多ESF的家長, 我也是其中之一.
大家覺得ESF有可能改善嗎?
拋磚引玉而已.
作者: popolung 時間: 09-4-5 07:29
I am not sure about the information provided above is correct or not, as I still searching where I can find these results. But I think this is why EsF is moving to use IB, at least for a better international standard to cope with other:
http://www.esf.edu.hk/index.aspx?nodeID=1040&langNo=1
ESF has traditionally taught the National Curriculum of England and Wales, adapted to the Hong Kong context. We used standardised assessments from Year 1 in order to measure progress and added value objectively. Schools are now moving to an overtly enquiry-based, investigative style of teaching and learning. Accordingly, primary schools are moving to the International Baccalaureate Organisation’s Primary Years Programme (PYP).
At secondary level, we continue with the adapted National Curriculum of England and Wales in Years 7 to 9, and then take GCSE and IGCSE courses. Renaissance and Discovery Colleges offer the IBO’s Middle Years Programme (MYP). At post-16, the majority of students follow the IB Diploma programme. At all levels, we seek to differentiate the curriculum to cater for students with learning difficulties, including at post-16, where we have introduced a four pathway model, the ESF Diploma.
作者: 阿胡 時間: 09-4-5 09:58
採用IB, 肯定對學生入讀美國大學有利. 但從過去多年來同HKIS, CIS和ESF家長的交流, 及我自己孩子的第一手經驗, ESF長期對入讀美國大學確實是相對莫視. 一些家長甚至用"學校不聞不問, 讓學生自生自滅"的極端字語來描述.
可惜今年同樣的事情又再次發生, 而這已是ESF學校採用IB之後.
IB並不是萬能藥. 香港IB學校不少, 但學校的college matriculation差別甚大.
http://www.ibo.org/school/search/index.cfm?programmes=&country=HK®ion=&find_schools=Find
作者: popolung 時間: 09-4-5 12:39
原帖由 阿胡 於 09-4-5 09:58 發表 
採用IB, 肯定對學生入讀美國大學有利. 但從過去多年來同HKIS, CIS和ESF家長的交流, 及我自己孩子的第一手經驗, ESF長期對入讀美國大學確實是相對莫視. 一些家長甚至用"學校不聞不問, 讓學生自生自滅"的極端字語來描 ...
This is link to IB school in HK only, any result to share as you mentioned? How old is your kid now? Where is he studying now?
[ 本帖最後由 popolung 於 09-4-5 12:41 編輯 ]
作者: 阿胡 時間: 09-4-5 14:06
HKIS: (2008)
http://dragonnet.hkis.edu.hk/hs/administration/crosssections/2008_cs0603.doc
CIS:
http://www.cis.edu.hk/cisnews.asp?lang=e&detailpage=1&docid=104
KGV:
http://kgv.edu.hk/students/unidest.html
ICS:
http://www.ics.edu.hk/En/Pub/schools_HS_CollegeAdvising.aspx?id=59
耀中:
http://www.ycis-hk.com/Pages/SEC/Admission/Template.aspx?docID=3065&style=Document&MenuID=157
其他學校的類似名單部分也可以在網上找到.
[ 本帖最後由 阿胡 於 09-4-5 14:45 編輯 ]
作者: popolung 時間: 09-4-5 15:45
Ar I think I saw some of these links too. Which school your kid is studying now?
作者: cmparent 時間: 09-4-5 18:28
It is an issue of self-selection. For parents who target at US universities, they will send their kids to HKIS, CIS, ICS etc. ESF is traditionally targeted towards UK universities and this is expected so. US university is not the only choice.
作者: Mighty 時間: 09-4-5 19:59
亜胡、我是ESF家長、従１開始我完全没有想過要入讀美学大学、我是「英．AUS。」派才選択ESF的。 所以在這方面我不覚得需要ESF改善、其他想改善的地方、当然非常多。 如果要入讀美国大学、我覚得不応選択ESF. 我知道美国是一個land of opportunities的地方、但美国政府長期不願意加入京都協議、我覚得作為一個工業大国、就非常有問題。 SORI,政治同学術不応混為一談、只是借位、有感而発。
作者: popolung 時間: 09-4-5 22:01
原帖由 Mighty 於 09-4-5 19:59 發表
亜胡、我是ESF家長、従１開始我完全没有想過要入讀美学大学、我是「英．AUS。」派才選択ESF的。 所以在這方面我不覚得需要ESF改善、其他想改善的地方、当然非常多。 如果要入讀美国大学、我覚得不応選択ESF. 我 ...
Haha, I like this. Yes, US should sign the Kyoto Protocol, just like what the Australia Government did when Kevin Rudd is on board. Obama pls do something!
And yes, I also plan to send my kid to UK since she has UK passport (but who knows after 13 years), but is it cheaper to study in UK university if one is an UK citizen?
[ 本帖最後由 popolung 於 09-4-5 22:03 編輯 ]
作者: almom 時間: 09-4-5 22:29
I think there are 2 issues here.
First, the actual universities placement results.
I would say that this depends much on what the student can choose (depending on his school results, including SAT, etc), what the student can afford (going to the US is not exactly cheap, when compared to Australia and Canada, expecially to those who have an Australian or Canadian passport), what the student want to choose (who knows, may be he wants to stay with mom in Hong Kong; or may be mom does not want him to leave Hong Kong; yes I have heard of such cases). Et cetera.
Second, which I think 阿胡 is focusing on, is the application procedure or the effort of the school in helping out those who want to go to the US.
In this respect, I would like to ask 阿胡 whether the schools are putting as little effort with applications to Canadian and Australian universities?
作者: 阿胡 時間: 09-4-6 00:31
原帖由 Mighty 於 09-4-5 19:59 發表
亜胡、我是ESF家長、従１開始我完全没有想過要入讀美学大学、我是「英．AUS。」派才選択ESF的。 所以在這方面我不覚得需要ESF改善、其他想改善的地方、当然非常多。 如果要入讀美国大学、我覚得不応選択ESF. 我 ...
哈哈, 就是光以英國為目標做比較, ESF中學也不如CIS做得好. 可CIS有大部分學生是以美國大學為目標的啊!
[ 本帖最後由 阿胡 於 09-4-6 00:34 編輯 ]
作者: 阿胡 時間: 09-4-6 00:50
原帖由 almom 於 09-4-5 22:29 發表
...
In this respect, I would like to ask 阿胡 whether the schools are puttingas little effort with applications to Canadian and Australianuniversities?
我對去加拿大和澳洲大學讀書的學生了解不多, 並不能對此多加評論. 但邏輯上, 如果有很多家長對ESF為去美國升學而抱怨, 很難想像ESF會花很大努力幫助去加拿大和澳洲大學讀書的學生. 事實上, 加拿大和澳洲大學的競爭遠不如英美的頂尖大學來的利害.
作者: Mighty 時間: 09-4-6 10:13
ＳＯＲＲＹ，亜胡是指在ＡＰＰＬＩＣＡＴＩＯＮ ＰＲＯＣＥＤＵＲＥ的問題、或是成績方面？ ＣＩＳ的学費可同ＥＳＦ相提並論嗎？ 我的２個大女児、一個去了ＵＮＩＶＥＲＳＩＴＹ ＯＦ ＷＡＬＥＳ、一個去了ＣＡＭＢＲＩＤＥ、都ＯＫ啦。 当然大部分都是自己的努力、ＥＳＦ的ＥＤＵＣＡＴＩＯＮ都另她們很独立。 如説話離題了、対不起、我没有再重看之前幾位的回覆了。
作者: popolung 時間: 09-4-6 10:51
原帖由 Mighty 於 09-4-6 10:13 發表
ＳＯＲＲＹ，亜胡是指在ＡＰＰＬＩＣＡＴＩＯＮ ＰＲＯＣＥＤＵＲＥ的問題、或是成績方面？ ＣＩＳ的学費可同ＥＳＦ相提並論嗎？ 我的２個大女児、一個去了ＵＮＩＶＥＲＳＩＴＹ ＯＦ ＷＡＬＥＳ、一個去了ＣＡＭＢＲＩＤＥ、都ＯＫ啦。 当然大部分都是自己的努力、ＥＳＦ的ＥＤＵＣＡＴＩＯＮ都另她們很独立。 如説話離題了、対不起、我没有再重看之前幾位的回覆 ...
You must be proud of your daughters and you have put many effort on them too, well done! We still have long way to go!
作者: almom 時間: 09-4-6 13:08
原帖由 阿胡 於 09-4-6 00:31 發表
哈哈, 就是光以英國為目標做比較, ESF中學也不如CIS做得好. 可CIS有大部分學生是以美國大學為目標的啊!
So you mean, ESF students are not going to good universities in both the US and the UK?
CIS obviously can afford to put more resourses in university placements, or providing all kinds of supports to students to boost up their results.
作者: almom 時間: 09-4-6 13:19
原帖由 阿胡 於 09-4-6 00:50 發表
我對去加拿大和澳洲大學讀書的學生了解不多, 並不能對此多加評論. 但邏輯上, 如果有很多家長對ESF為去美國升學而抱怨, 很難想像ESF會花很大努力幫助去加拿大和澳洲大學讀書的學生. 事實上, 加拿大和澳洲大學的競爭遠不如英美的頂尖大學來的利害.
I am curious what exactly would those university placement people be willing to do for the students?
What support do they provide.
May be my children are still small and I have very slight idea of their job responsibilities.
I would have thought that if they are hired to help students with university placements, they should try their best to help students.
BTW, do you mind telling me what year level is your child in?
Please also share what you know or see, regarding university placements.
I would like to take notes and get prepared.
Thanks.
作者: 阿胡 時間: 09-4-6 13:59
原帖由 almom 於 09-4-6 13:08 發表
So you mean, ESF students are not going to good universities in both the US and the UK?
CIS obviously can afford to put more resourses in university placements, or providing all kinds of supports t ...
當然, 錢多好辦事嘛.
我想說的是, 兩個本來都可以進常青藤的學生, 由於學校幫助的差異(例如: essay proof reading, wording in reference letters, etc), 結果其中一個只進普通州立大學. 這種事發生在自己的孩子身上, 再加上一句"誰讓你讀ESF?", 你會有何感受?
父母, 學校, 及其學生自己, 十來年的努力, 而由於忽於申請而入不了他應該入到的好大學, 真是令人感慨.
我只不過是年年聽到ESF的部分家長, 因為學校乏於幫助學生而入不到好大學, 而有感而發而已.
我大孩子畢業於HKIS, 入到間好大學. 現在小孩子在ESF, 將來如何, 當然仍有很多選擇. 可能真如俗話說的, 一分錢一分貨呢.
早年CIS, 也不懂入學遊戲規則, 現在就好多了.
作為ESF學生家長, 我只是希望學校更好而已.
[ 本帖最後由 阿胡 於 09-4-6 17:53 編輯 ]
作者: almom 時間: 09-4-6 14:16
I see what you mean.
And I totally understand how you feel.
I think as parents, we can just push the school into doing more.
Like I said eariler, what else are they willing to help?
I thought they were hired to help students with university placement?
It is the problem with the person only, or with the general policy of the school?
作者: 阿胡 時間: 09-4-6 14:21
原帖由 almom 於 09-4-6 13:19 發表
I am curious what exactly would those university placement people be willing to do for the students?
What support do they provide.
May be my children are still small and I have very slight idea of t ...
通常他們被稱之為college counselor. 常常是native, 語言好, 識同人交流, 又熟悉大學錄取遊戲規則的人來擔任.
如果大學錄取只以分數作為標準, 這個世界就不會有college counselor. 但是, 英美學校, 特別是美國頂尖大學, 錄取真是一場"遊戲". (這裡遊戲一詞毫無貶義)
華人都覺得SAT不太難, 但大學錄取, SAT的份量不大. 孩子的品德, 包括essay字裡行間表露的信息, 會對錄取很重要. 顯然, 這不是一句"He is an excellent student"就夠的. 好多時候要college counselor寫一封令人信服的信.
作者: Mighty 時間: 09-4-6 14:48
亜胡
我好奇有２個問題問問：－
①為何不転ＨＫＩＳ，ＯＲ ＣＩＳ？ By the way this is NOT a provocative question, i m just wondering...
②亜胡想ＥＳＦ改善的問題、有否直接同学校対話？ 要一所像ＥＳＦ機構去改変、時間非常長！！但不是没可能的。 我也是ＥＳＦ家長、如可一同努力、当然会作。 最近去信ＶＩＣＥ ＰＲＩＮＣＩＰＡＬ作了一個要求、解釈個人需要、事情是比較簡単的、非常快就有効了。
作者: Miclint 時間: 09-4-6 17:44
我這樣理解阿胡的觀察： ESF 並沒有聘請專責推薦產出學生的 marketing & business development specialist。就像是找工作寫 resume 一樣，方簡也有專門教授技巧和策略的人事顧問公司；就像大企業搞市場開發一樣，很多專業服務咨詢公司不惜高薪聘請某某，純為取得這位仁兄的在該行頭的網絡和人面作導引。我看這其實是商業化和錢作怪吧！怎算好？
作者: almom 時間: 09-4-6 18:46
原帖由 阿胡 於 09-4-6 14:21 發表
通常他們被稱之為college counselor. 常常是native, 語言好, 識同人交流, 又熟悉大學錄取遊戲規則的人來擔任.
如果大學錄取只以分數作為標準, 這個世界就不會有college counselor. 但是, 英美學校, 特別是美國頂 ...
Then they seem to be the same "counselor" I used to have in high school.
Then my question would be, if the counselor of your child's school is not doing what he is expected to do, can you make a complaint to the school?
He is supposed to be hired to help with university placement. Now if he is not doing his job, should the school be looking for someone else to take up the job?
Or, has it been some kind of "tradition" of the ESF to be focusing on universities in the UK?
作者: 阿胡 時間: 09-4-6 21:25
原帖由 almom 於 09-4-6 14:16 發表
I see what you mean.
And I totally understand how you feel.
I think as parents, we can just push the school into doing more.
Like I said eariler, what else are they willing to help?
I thought they wer ...
謝謝你. 事實上, 我正在ESF學校讀書的幾個孩子還小.
十來年, ESF在college counseling方面, 改善不多. 今年剛剛過去的入學申請, 連最起碼的介紹給學生要如何寫一篇好的essay, 都不去做, 真是令人唏嘘. 結果當然是可想而知了.
而家長們, 年年等事情發生了才遷怒學校, 事後又無人再跟進, 這就是發生在ESF的故事.
年年如此. ESF就是如此容易地年年由時間"解決"了問題.
[ 本帖最後由 阿胡 於 09-4-6 22:21 編輯 ]
作者: popolung 時間: 09-4-7 00:04
原帖由 阿胡 於 09-4-6 21:25 發表
謝謝你. 事實上, 我正在ESF學校讀書的幾個孩子還小.
十來年, ESF在college counseling方面, 改善不多. 今年剛剛過去的入學申請, 連最起碼的介紹給學生要如何寫一篇好的essay, 都不去做, 真是令人唏嘘. 結果當然 ...
So is this concluded that we should switch our kid from ESF to CIS or HKIS?
作者: Mighty 時間: 09-4-7 11:09
Quote
而家長們, 年年等事情發生了才遷怒學校, 事後又無人再跟進, 這就是發生在ESF的故事.
Unquote
其実也不是、家長現在「改善」許多了、前幾個星期学校開了ＭＡＮＤＡＲＩＮ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ ＥＶＥＮＩＮＧ、it became a very heated discussion 因家長不満学校在普通話方面的進度。 但時間是需要的、也要看看家長争取的態度＆力度了。
作者: 阿胡 時間: 09-4-7 14:04
原帖由 popolung 於 09-4-7 00:04 發表
So is this concluded that we should switch our kid from ESF to CIS or HKIS?
我並不是想說ESF一無是處. 事實上, 在香港, 對好多家長來說, 還好有ESF, 否則真是不知道讓孩子上哪間學校. ESF確實提供了一個很好的, 而不同傳統教學方法的選擇.
至於是否轉學去HKIS, CIS, 每位家長都會做出自己的決定. 學校間間不同, 都有優缺點, 都有自己的特色. 我只是希望ESF有所改善而已,不希望見到十年前的失誤一而再, 再而三地發生. 對比學校可以做到轉IB, 加強中文教育等等, 提供好的college counseling應該是ESF力所能及的.
作者: Miclint 時間: 09-4-7 15:37
Dear Mighty: 請問家長們不滿 Mandarin 課程什麼？不是已正在推行 Pilot Scheme 嗎？是否因為 Pilot Scheme 的目標不夠進取，就算 Pathway 3 的依然太淺易？我倒有這個感覺。請您分享一下家長們不滿的內容和有何跟進？謝謝您！
原帖由 Mighty 於 09-4-7 11:09 發表
Quote
而家長們, 年年等事情發生了才遷怒學校, 事後又無人再跟進, 這就是發生在ESF的故事.
Unquote
其実也不是、家長現在「改善」許多了、前幾個星期学校開了ＭＡＮＤＡＲＩＮ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ ＥＶＥＮＩＮＧ、it became a very heated discussion 因家長不満 ...
作者: emmamay 時間: 09-4-8 19:25
My elder son is studying in HKIS. I know their graduates can get into top universities because of the support of the school.
Now my younger daughter will go to ESF in coming school year (Gr 1). Why she is not in HKIS, because of MONEY ma. It can save us a lot of money if she go to ESF.
Anyway, I will see how's my daughter doing in ESF. If there is a big difference between the schools, I will then have to send her to HKIS.
I do have no complaint on HKIS. I think it's a very good school. There are also a numbers of students going to universities in UK. If money is not a problem. I definitly will send the younger one to HKIS too.
Maybe in this world, you do pay for what you get.
作者: thankful 時間: 09-4-8 23:22
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作者: thankful 時間: 09-4-9 17:58
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作者: almom 時間: 09-5-3 11:06
華人都覺得SAT不太難, 但大學錄取, SAT的份量不大. 孩子的品德, 包括essay字裡行間表露的信息, 會對錄取很重要. 顯然, 這不是一句"He is an excellent student"就夠的. 好多時候要college counselor寫一封令人信服的信.
I think SAT is not exactly a piece of cake to everyone. And SAT is not exactly 份量不大.
I do not have details of the current SAT (may be I should now) but even at my time as a student, SAT was definitely not something that was considered easy. There is no passing score for SAT but schools are looking for "good" score and we all knew what was bad score and what was good score.
I understand that they have more papers with SAT now and it is in fact even more demanding than the time when I was student.
I understand that a lot of prep school in the US started preparing students for SAT very early on. Some students or schools would start preparing as early as Grade 9 or 10.
Having said that, of course, a good personal statement, a good letter of recommendation, etc would also help. Good SAT alone would not be the key to Ivy League and likewise, even with the best personal statement, etc, if you do not have good SAT score you are in a poor position.
I just feel that the success of applying to universities in the US is a bunch of so many things, all of which need support from the school. Students should not 小看 any one of the criteria.
In any case, I am still a bit shocked if the school counselors are that unhelpful. I thought they were hired to do things like that. If they are not doing what they were supposed to do, why were they even hired.
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